Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[quadz08]

Vi, I appreciate you catching up and everything, but I think agree with IAI. Your scum/town lists from earlier in the game aren't terribly helpful; if anything, they're confusing. I'm quite interested to hear your reads once you're fully caught up, though.

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

UNVOTE:

At this point, I'm not terribly confident in any of my reads. diddin's D1 play, though, stands out to me as the scummiest thing thus far, so

VOTE: diddin

[LimMePls]

What is multiball?

[themanhimself]

When there are two scumteams

[Saint]

Vi, I appreciate you catching up and everything, but I think agree with IAI. Your scum/town lists from earlier in the game aren't terribly helpful; if anything, they're confusing. I'm quite interested to hear your reads once you're fully caught up, though.

It matters because EVERYONE IS VOTING PEOPLE I THINK ARE TOWNIES WHAT IS GOING ON HERE

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

I know nobody's reading my posts except scum21, but maybe if I say it again people will notice.

--THE DAYKILL IS CONNECTED TO THE VIRUS
--WE ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET THE VIRUS BACK (in fact I'd prefer it if we didn't)
--DO NOT BANK ON HAVING IT

Plus Moai pretty much said why keeping abilities around was a --good thing-- --even if-- they were anti-Town, but nobody's listening to him either.

What is multiball?

Multiple Mafias. I expect 6 Mafiosi in this game, so 3 vs. 3.
After thinking about it, it would explain quite a few things that have gone on ITT.

Of course, we could just ask whoever night-vigged last Night to step forward, as I don't think anyone has claimed it.
That should answer that question, and since the power would have already cycled away it doesn't out the role, so I don't see a downside offhand.

[quadz08]

Of course, we could just ask whoever night-vigged last Night to step forward, as I don't think anyone has claimed it.

I'm in favor of this. I don't see a downside, anyway.

[themanhimself]

Agreed. If no one comes forward then we know we're dealing with either an SK or a second faction. If it is a vig that's another lynch for us.

[diddin]

So... after those ISOs (which took much longer than I intended. Dammit, school) I’m thinking that TMH is scummier than diddin. diddin has been considerably townier on D2 than he was at the beginning of the game. TMH, on the other hand, has gotten scummier and scummier and scummier as the game goes on. The steal of the dayvig is just so anti-town I can’t even believe it. Then, he sent the busdriving ability to a scumread, which is almost as bad.
Something that’s bugging me, though, is everyone’s insistence that only one of them can be scum. That’s NOT TRUE. Very simple. Not true. They can absolutely both be scum, just on different scumgroups.

Vi, I appreciate you catching up and everything, but I think agree with IAI. Your scum/town lists from earlier in the game aren't terribly helpful; if anything, they're confusing. I'm quite interested to hear your reads once you're fully caught up, though.

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

UNVOTE:

At this point, I'm not terribly confident in any of my reads. diddin's D1 play, though, stands out to me as the scummiest thing thus far, so

VOTE: diddin

[Nero Cain]

Of course, we could just ask whoever night-vigged last Night to step forward, as I don't think anyone has claimed it.

I'm in favor of this. I don't see a downside, anyway.

Agreed. If no one comes forward then we know we're dealing with either an SK or a second faction. If it is a vig that's another lynch for us.

[implosion]

Of course, we could just ask whoever night-vigged last Night to step forward, as I don't think anyone has claimed it.

I'm in favor of this. I don't see a downside, anyway.

Agreed. If no one comes forward then we know we're dealing with either an SK or a second faction. If it is a vig that's another lynch for us.

Yes, if there's a vigilante ability, then knowing who had it last night will definitely help the mafia kill it. Obviously. I mean, it's not like it would have been passed or anything.

Also, frankly:

--THE DAYKILL IS CONNECTED TO THE VIRUS
--WE ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET THE VIRUS BACK (in fact

I'd prefer it if we didn't

)
--DO NOT BANK ON HAVING IT

I agree with, particularly the bolded. I mean, actually thinking about it, the virus is not a good way to kill people. If we tell person x to just sit back and die, if they are town they may oblige, but if they're mafia they'll just pass it to someone else (if they're going to die anyway they'd have no reason not to pass it on), so it's more likely to hit town than mafia.

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

[The Eruci]

:: VoteCount 2x6 ::

LynchMePls (0) -

RedCoyote (0) -

themanhimself (2) -

RedCoyote, WrathChild

Lateralus22 (0) -

WrathChild (4) -

nhammen, Nero Cain, LynchMePls, diddin

curiouskarmadog (0) -

quadz08 (0) -

Nero Cain (0) -

q21 (0) -

diddin (1) -

quadz08

popsofctown (0) -

Bunnylover (2) -

Saint, I Am Innocent

I Am Innocent (1) -

Bunnylover

StrangerCoug (0) -

Implosion (0) -

nhammen (0) -

Saint (0) -

Not Voting (7) -

curiouskarmadog, implosion, popsofctown, Lateralus22, StrangerCoug, q21, themanhimself

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline for Day Two is Tuesday February 1st, 2011 5:00pm EST.

Lateralus22 has requested replacement. In other news, I'm going to bed.

[popsofctown]

Uh...

daykills are still protown, bad as things are

actually, daykills/gunsmith style (getting a gun) is actually VERY null for me
however, the manner in which he went about it was scummy

You misinterpreted this post. I meant, "having a daykill in play is good for the town", not "the act of daykilling suggests that that daykiller is town aligned"

Also if we have to go through with the Virus mess again this game will become especially unpleasant.

Agreed. If the virus shows up tomorrow I will become unhappy and angry.




@bringing grief to the mod's eyes by saying I'm not enjoying the game: I like to excel in the games I play, I like winning, and I like my own good play to be the reason I'm winning. I'm not playing a good game of mafia this game, and I'm losing, and I'm not happy about that. I don't see why the mod should be offended by that, it's quite strictly internal. Furthermore, I felt it necessary to explain my emotional reaction to the game for others to properly interpret my play, so I'm not going to sacrifice clarity like that just to spare the mod's feelings. I don't think I'm doing anyone any harm or disrespect here, in contrast with Precision Mafia where I was a royal ****.



After throwing out my previous model for the game, Vi's looks a lot better. I mean, I know I'm on the scumlist, and that's not right, but, "scum are picking off VIs and lol'ing" seems like a more accurate model for what I've seen so far than "newbscum are blatantly obvious across this thread".

Vote: LynchMePls

LynchMePls has been giving pithy, direct arguments for a lot of wagons like DBE's. Which, when I thought these were accurate wagons, was fine. Now it seems more like he didn't want to expound on his reasoning because it was a mislynch, and it's better to give less material for alignment reading.

This same stuff can be thrown back at me, and I've definitely been a hard pusher for two of the mislynches in this game, but I feel I've been a lot more transparent than LMP. He doesn't seem to want to let me get a read on him. I mean he even just quoted posts of DBE's and said "Self explanatory vote with me", to what further lengths could you go to avoid readability? It's like some sort of active-lurk-wagonning.

He's in R mafia game voting 4 R townies

[popsofctown]

1457 was also unnecessarily defensive imo

[RedCoyote]

Exactly why I would argue we should assume he's scum and wait for his ability to change hands, then lynch him tomorrow, after diddin passes him that infernal antitown ability.

I see your point, I just don't know if we can exactly afford the luxury of a daykill any longer. I'll probably have to concede you have a better technical argument here. It's more logical that we should try our best to hold onto the daykill as best we can... I just feel like we almost

need

this flip, I guess.

---

BunnyLover
Wrath Child
Pops.

If anyone but one of these three players gets lynched, I am breaking my own rule and replacing out. I did not want Helghast shot, I voted for TMH over Powerox, I said DBE was being used as the easy target today, and said I had a town read on Parama, who is also a very solid endgame player. Give me some credit and let's please target just one of these three players D2.

I get the frustration over no one listening to you. That doesn't really give you grounds to replace out though, IAI. You're just going to have to be more persuasive. For all I know, Bunny, WC, and pops may all be mislynches (although I doubt it).

---

We've been basically policy lynching all game and it hasn't gotten us anywhere, and I'm very confident that that trend will continue.

It's not a policy lynch though. None of the kills have been political so far, with the exception of DBE (although, to be fair, she brought that on herself. She had ample opportunity to pass the bomb, but she took the coward's way out).

All due respect Vi, but you need to read this game before commenting on it anymore. Don't straddle both ends. Either read the game and comment or just stick to helping Fur out. theman was advocating a no lynch yesterday, and, what's more, he defended this position after others pointed out to him how scummy it sounded. Honestly, backpedaling from that position wouldn't have been much better, but defending somehow seems worse given how long he's been playing the game. When this day started, he also slipped that he knew how the scum makeup was. These aren't political arguments, he's made scummy posts.

---

scum group 1?....

As in multiple scum groups.

---

*RedCoyote - The second-biggest active lurker in the game. There was one time when he said something that made me consider that he might be looking from a pro-Town motivation, but most of his posts are just walls that don't go anywhere, don't do anything, and uphold the status quo.

Oh, please. You know as much as anyone that I do not have the opportunity to log onto MS numerous times over the course of the day. Very often my posts happen late at night after normal people in the western world has went to sleep. If I had a nickel for everytime someone tried to push this lame activity argument on me, I'd be retired on a beach in the Cayman Islands. I like how my posts don't go anywhere yet I very nearly had theman lynched yesterday, I began the wagon to get Helghast shot yesterday, and I was one of the only people to stand in the way of implosion and diddin running roughshod over the town today. I mean, compared with Lateralus, SC, LynchMePls, and ckd,

I'm

the lurker? You're really missing the bigger picture here. Unfortunately I can't claim that my reads have really helped the town progress so far, but I've undoubtedly had a lot of influence here. I'd argue that I've been one of the top three most influential players in this game.

---

Nice OMGUS Bunnylover. Noted.

[...]

Once again, nice OMGUS.

Wow, we get it. Jeez.

I like how you also point out you've only had "one vote over the entire game, a RVS vote" as though it's something to be proud of. I'm going to be checking on this, because if this is true you are really slipping under the radar.

RC and Furc can back me up by telling you how I was at the end game of Zach's mountainous game, and though I didn't reread all 50 pages of that game, I did spend time rereading keep points of that game.

Yes, this is true.

---

Ok. We should lynch TMH today because if he is scum, he could just pass the dayvig ability to the player his team is going to nightkill, sending it to "the void."

I didn't even think about this. There's also no way of knowing where they'll pass it either.

Sigh.

I don't think we're going to get to keep the daykill even if we wanted to.

---

I am not fully convinced TMH is scum, but he surely isn't the town-slot that I believed he was earlier on in the game.

If ever I've seen doubletalk...

---

How do you know this is a multiball?

Ever heard of the word "if" before, SC?

---

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

My goodness, implosion. If we see eye-to-eye on this there may be hope for the town yet.

---

I don't think I'm doing anyone any harm or disrespect here, in contrast with Precision Mafia where I was a royal ****.

*brofist*

[I Am Innocent]

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

No the other argument is that we will probably have no chance at getting rid of the Treestump.

The virus may get unleashed everyday. With or without a day vig. I suggest we keep the dayvig for one more day and get rid of TMH and the Treestump once and for all D3.

My suggestion on handling the virus each day it remains in the game is to have everybody place a vote. Once everybody places a vote (without taking anyone pass L-2), the person with the majority takes the virus and holds it until they die. If they refuse to hold it (indicating scum), they automatically become the choice for the lynch, and we go ahead and lynch that player right then and there and do not use the virus that day. Virus problem averted.***

***D3 would be the one exception if we want to out TMH and Treestump with the Dayvig, we would need to come up with a 2nd alternative.

[I Am Innocent]

7 People have not voted. One is being replaced. One cannot because of the Tree stump.

@5 other players. Please vote.

@ CKD, where would your vote be currently?

[Saint]

All due respect Vi, but you need to read this game before commenting on it anymore. Don't straddle both ends.

Either read the game and comment or just stick to helping Fur out.

Excuse me!?

theman was advocating a no lynch yesterday, and, what's more, he defended this position after others pointed out to him how scummy it sounded. Honestly, backpedaling from that position wouldn't have been much better, but defending somehow seems worse given how long he's been playing the game. When this day started, he also slipped that he knew how the scum makeup was. These aren't political arguments, he's made scummy posts.

Oh, this is that argument I've been asking about for a while now.

You mentioned experience as a factor, so I looked up his activity. He came back to the site late 2010 after leaving in equally-late 2006 after a ~five-month career; on a quick skim his play in his last game in 2006 wasn't great - he almost got modkilled due to violating a post restriction. So, that.

Proposing a No Lynch was a silly idea all around and based on fuzzy logic, but I'm not seeing where it was scummy so much as logically dubious and an easy lightning rod. I've already read that far, not that you would be interested in noticing. As for saying he knew about the setup, are you referring to this post at the beginning of the Day:

Hrm.... so I'm guessing there's an SK? Either that or a vig but if there's a vig the ability probably cycles so I don't know that it's much use trying to get anything from that.

As a matter of fact, YES, you are (RC #24). What, are we not supposed to comment about having more kills than expected (HINT: like I did a post or two ago and a few people thought it was a great idea)? Or are we always supposed to suspect two Mafias (I didn't until you said something)? What are you trying to push here?

tmh's logic for taking the daykill from diddin makes sense as either alignment. tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well). The kill wasn't the best, but at the same time, it was understandable (especially considering everyone was moaning D1 about how diddin used a long democratic process to decide his kill). COULD it have been scum-motivated? Yes of course, but Parama was probably very low on the list of targets scum would have conveniently wanted out of the way. COULD it be possible that this is a plot between diddin-scum and tmh-scum so that they got the daykill twice? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely and the fact that you (RedCoyote) tried to pass it off as a legitimate argument is -ludicrous- considering the suspicion about diddin's daykill is similarly overhyped beyond reason.

So I've done what you asked and did all the required reading about your tmh case, and as it turns out, not only has my opinion not changed about tmh, my opinion hasn't changed about you. Scum.

[Saint]

tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well).

EBWOP: Erase "a few levels" and "fair play". That was my initial interpretation of "the person who got the bus driver knows why".

Also, tmh couldn't pass the Driver to diddin if they're both scum.

[curiouskarmadog]

@ CKD, where would your vote be currently?

TMH

[Saint]

@ CKD, where would your vote be currently?

TMH

why

[curiouskarmadog]

I have already said..I am suspicious as to the motivation behind taking the vig kill. if his kill had been a scum, maybe not so much. I feel that scum would more likely want that kill than to leave it up to a random chance of getting it...

[StrangerCoug]

How do you know this is a multiball?

Ever heard of the word "if" before, SC?

Yeah, but there's not a lot of evidence pointing to one right now—only that MagnaofIllusion and chkflip died the same night. What town relevance is there in differentiating Mafia from a potential Mafia A and Mafia B?

[nhammen]

Overall, Darla sucks, diddin still sucks, Nero still sucks, WC sucks less, nhammen doesn't suck (though I'm ready for something other than catch-up posts), Parama still sucks, IAI doesn't suck, Bunny sucks, TMH sucks a LOT.

Agree about Darla, diddin, Nero, and WC (except for the less part). Disagree about Parama and Bunny. Agree about TMH. Also, something is creeping me out about how you have frequently stated I am town or have defended me. It's like an ex-girlfriend repeatedly trying to get back together.

Hey quadz, I never saw a response to this. I'd like to see if there is anything you want to say.

Also, why do you have interest in me yet interest for people who are interested in lynching my slot and it flipping town? Just the sheer ignorance of imagining a town flip seems ridiculous. Let's imagine a scum one.

Umm... I don't get what this means. Could you explain it again?

@diddin: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard.
@tmh: Ask the mod whether the bus driving ability is standard. Also, what makes you suspect this ability is nonstandard? Also tell me why, if you suspected it not to be standard, you did not seek clarification from the mod as soon as all of this clearing business was started.

@RedCoyote: You said that I hadn't justified something, and I would like to know what I haven't justified. Also, you stated that diddin slipped, and I would like to know why you think this is a slip.
@Saint: I would like some clarification of the post of yours that I quoted.

These were never responded to either.

CKD, assuming both you and TMH make it to the end of D2, are you going to send the Tree Stump to him N2?

I can..rather send it to bunny...but i have no problem passing it to whoever the town on a whole wants me too...since this ability is out in the open, we should use it to create links

I support having CKD send the treestump to TMH. We need to decide who he is sending the stump to before the day ends, so that we can say if he doesn't send it to that player, then he is scum.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

I couldn't agree more with this. I was told I have an unknown limited quantity of kills left. I have a feeling tmh might not be willing to eat the virus and with no virus, no daykill. There even may be no virus tomorrow.

I'm giving tmh the Redirector ability tomorrow.

I'm not sure that giving TMH the redirector tomorrow is a good idea. I earlier agreed to such a plan, but I thing we have a better option available. Namely, the next post I am quoting contains two plans (#2 and #3) that I think are better.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

This is actually a decent point. More below.

Why are you guys so sure we will have a daykill tomorrow?

I couldn't agree more with this. I was told I have an unknown limited quantity of kills left. I have a feeling tmh might not be willing to eat the virus and with no virus, no daykill. There even may be no virus tomorrow.

I'm giving tmh the Redirector ability tomorrow.

Coyote is acting scummier with every new post. He's misrepping the situation like crazy.

Here's what I say: Whether he is scum or town, we aren't lynching tmh today. So if I'm lynched, it's just an extra mislynch for us! As such, there is no way I'm willing to be lynched or killed today.

Here is what we know:
Treestump - CKD
Bus Driver - Diddin
DayVig - TMH

Options
1) We can send both Treestump and Bus Driver to TMH tomorrow, but if we do not have the dayvig and we do not have the virus/or he refuses to hold the virus, we cannot kill him until D4 (and he will have the ability to steal another power N3).

2) We can send just the Treestump to him and if no dayvig / virus, we cannot kill him until D4. Here he would not be able to mess with night abilities since no Bus Driver.

3) We can send just the Bus Driver to him and we can always lynch him if need be.

I still lean towards #2 because my guess is that the dayvig will still be in play with the amount of people we should start D3 with unless it is removed from the game. That would require TMH being killed prior to passing it. Since I think he is scum, I am going to guess that isn't going to happen.

Other benefits of #2, if I am wrong, then TMH who would be unkillable D3 would not be able to mess with the Bus Driver Abilities N3. Also a 3rd person could verify the Bus Driver ability and let us know if it is standard or not.

Summary/my suggestion: CKD sends the tree stump to TMH. Diddin sends the Bus Driver to somebody else.

Thoughts/counter suggestions?

The only issue with #2 is the possibility of the daykill being sent to the void by scumTMH. To counter this, we actually would need to use the redirection ability. This is what has me a bit iffy.

More to come in a few hours...

[nhammen]

The optimal plan of action is to vig diddin and then lynch TMH if diddin flips town.

Best post of Parama's ISO. It makes me worried.

On the top layer, I think I agree with this, but I want to look at our options before anyone pulls the trigger.

The optimal plan of action is to vig diddin and then lynch TMH if diddin flips town.

I just realized something. Parama is forcing false chain lynches,

IF Diddin flips town, it does NOT mean TMH is scum.

2 questions: what caused you to just realize something? Do you believe that both of these slots have acted horribly scummy?

@quadz #1361: Thanks for doing those isos. I agree that tmh looks scummier. I don't like that you are talking about multiple scumteams. Yes, I know it is possible, but I don't like you mentioning it like this.

C'mon guys, don't wuss out, I'm playing in like four games right now and this one is hands down my favorite. I don't like that sentiment coming from parama because it sounds to me like he's scum who knows that he's caught. Implosion and pops haven't been major suspects so I don't necessarily see that coming from them. I'll do the game a three fold favor right now
[ b]Daykill: Parama[ b]
1) He doesn't want to be here
2) This will give us new info to go off of
3) he's scum
Most people seem fine with him dying in some fashion or another anyway

At this point very few people have weighed in since Darla's death. Of these people, 5 of them mentioned that they wanted parama dead: Bunny, Wrath, CKD, quadz, and yourself. Your explanation is completely lacking (why does it sound like caught scum and none of the others with the same sentiments sound like it). The new info it gives is that you are scum. Hi there!

Parama

was in possession of the

Doctor

ability.

Hmmm... Apparently I misinterpreted the role information that I had.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Interesting reaction to Parama's doc flip. Why is this the only comment you have? Anything else to say? No. Ok then.

That was actually intended for diddin, but to respond to your question: Bunny and WC are slightly scummy, while pops is on the town side of null. I've been meaning to look over pops' ISO, though; that's pretty much a gut feeling on him.

Also, I feel like it might not be a bad idea to just lynch TMH now. With this many dead townies, we can't afford to have scum end up with an extra kill, whether it's by poor passing decisions from TMH, or the redirector, or even something we don't know about. And besides, after the kill on Parama after promising multiple times to wait? Let's hang this guy.

VOTE: TMH

Frankly, I propose we lynch theman now. True, we're losing our daykill, but he basically just claimed scum with that shot. Before I just had reason to believe he was scum given his support of no lynching yesterday and his stealing the Vig ability, but now I know it. I don't know if the town should scoff at this without considering it. A scum flip will give us better information going into tomorrow. Additionally, if we lynch a scum today, and whoever has the other night shot knocks off another scum on the same team, we'll be in much better standing.

Vote: themanhimself

Thoughts?

I highly disagree with this plan. There are much better options. We already know he is scum, now we want to find connections. We should be using cycling to give us more confirmed town, and using reactions to find scum.

Daykill: Parama

whoops

Where was the claim request? I told you to ask for one before shooting! Esp since DBE all but breadcrumbed that she passed the Doctor role to Parama.

Obv scum. I still want to wait until D3 to take you out, as I want the Treestump out of the game.

CKD, pass the tree stump to TMH tomorrow.

For anyone adamant about lynching TMH today, you obv think he is scum too so my say is to focus on the three players that helped push Powerox (and in essence save TMH D1).

BunnyLover
Wrath Child
Pops.

If anyone but one of these three players gets lynched, I am breaking my own rule and replacing out. I did not want Helghast shot, I voted for TMH over Powerox, I said DBE was being used as the easy target today, and said I had a town read on Parama, who is also a very solid endgame player. Give me some credit and let's please target just one of these three players D2.

I agree with this entire post, except the last paragraph is pure fluff and as Bunny says is too much bragging. As for your list, Bunny is VI town, in my opinion. And pops is slightly town to me. But I will reiterate that Wrath is my top scumread.

@I Am Innocent #1419 and #1420: All that your case against Bunny shows is that he is a VI.

I outed Parama? No. Parama was not outed. He was protected by DBE. Yes in hince sight that would mean he would pass it to Parama as you pointed out, but thats leads into WIFOM situation.

It should have been obvious at the time. When Darla sad she wouldn't say who she protected for the same reason that she wouldn't out who she passed it to, you should have let it drop.

Ok. We should lynch TMH today because if he is scum, he could just pass the dayvig ability to the player his team is going to nightkill, sending it to "the void."

unvote, Vote: themanhimself

That's a self-defeating argument considering that you're in possession of an ability that utterly nullifies that point

The fact that it is you who is advocating this plan makes me very uneasy. If we do this, we need to have diddin steal the ability from TMH, send it to protown player A who diddin chooses himself (if we trust diddin), and diddin sends the steal to a THIRD player, who also must be protown. I think (but I'd like discussion on this) that we as a town can decide the third player. Wait, that would give clues as to who the dayvig is not going to. Nevermind.

[Saint]

themanhimself

- Please tell me if it is possible for Mafiosi to pass each other abilities with the Driver. If it doesn't say, ask for mod clarification.

[q21]

I show up when I can and when I post I generally try to contribute. If that results in pushing a few people's buttons and, as you call it, pushing the drama around, so be it.
I NEVER at an point in this game have had EtherealCookie as my "top scumspect". Never. In my last post before going V/LA (263) I didn't even suspect him enough to list him as a scumread. In 546/547 I do list him as a scumread, albeit a lesser one - if anything, that's a promotion up my scumlist, not dropping him down it.
But even if I did do exactly what you said I did, dropping EC down my scum list in favour of other suspects, lets have a look at what you've just done. Oh, you've just dropped EC (replaced by nhammen) from position 1 to position 7... demoting him down your scumlist in favour of other suspects... even further down than I allegedly did. Not only have you misrepped me with regard to my EC suspicion, you're a hypocrite too.

This argument is retarded for reasons that should be obvious, but.
1) Again, you only show up when it's personally convenient - either to maintain the status quo or to defend yourself in this case. Nothing pro-Town about it.
2) Oh dear, I dropped EC down.

CLEARLY

the entire thought is invalid... When hypocrisy becomes a scumtell, let me know.
*I'll grant that at best your suspicion of EC was waffling. I misread the level of your EC hate because calling out EC was the major reason I liked your first real post.

The argument is not retarded.
1) In this instance I posted a defence, true, but to label all my posting as either defending myself or trying to preserve the status quo is a blatant misrepresentation. Point in case: Back at the beginning of January when very few people had so much as mentioned Powerrox and certainly no one had voted him in any seriousness I made a case for his lynch and placed the first vote on what became the lynch of the day. If that is posting to maintain the status quo then you have a very warped definition of status quo.

2) Hypocrisy (not to forget the misrepping that went with it, btw) is a scumtell. So here's me letting you know. And before you ask, here's why: Hypocrisy is a special case of the application of a double standard. You condemn someone for an action that you yourself have committed. The idea of condemning someone for their actions is that you believe those actions are more likely to come from scum than from town (this is the definition of a scumtell); thing is, how can you - if you are actually town - honestly condemn someone for doing something you are also guilty of. You have a proof positive example of a townie (yourself) committing exactly the same act which makes that act, at the very least, a nulltell. If, on the other hand, you're scum you lack that proof positive example of a townie committing the act in question and you would have no interest in such an example even if you did - making you much more likely to make the hypocritical accusation. Hence it is a scumtell.

*Look at the people who you put in front of EC.

Vote Powerrox93

Other scum reads at the moment: Nero Cain. diddin. Less so, themanhimself and EC.

I'm willing to bet every last one of these are Town.

And I'd eat my had if you don't end up losing that bet.

There are other things I don't like about Saint's play.

His sudden willingness to vote AntB back during day 1 coming out of nowhere was scummy.

His construction of a too townie argument against nhamen was scummy.

His strawman argument against Bunny was scummy.
-Both of the above two were mentioned earlier by myself in 1216. (another post that was neither defending myself or preserving the status quo)

I also and a little suspicious of Saint's interaction with TMH. Some highlights of those interactions: In 207 he tries to co-opt TMH into voting with him. In 703 he votes him. From 1418 ViSaint has TMH listed among the lynchproof, yet in 1462 FurcSaint makes this comment.

I am not fully convinced TMH is scum, but he surely isn't the town-slot that I believed he was earlier on in the game.

Here Saint seems to be leaning on the scumside of the alignment fence he's sitting on with regard to TMH. To me this looks like scumbuddy interaction with TMH - experienced Vi is calling TMH town despite a preponderance of scumminess, newer Furc is vacillating on the TMH. In the absence of a flip on either this point is the weakest, but given that I strongly read TMH as scum - as in, I'd be personally banging in the nails at his crucifixion if I didn't think we owed it to ourselves to at least try and keep the dayvig power and attempt to take both him and the stump out tomorrow - I think it's at least a little valid. Hint: TMH is the reason I most think you'll lose that little bet.

Vote Saint