Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[nhammen]

This is true. Now if we don't lynch tmh I'll take the dayvig ability back to save it from the void if that's ok with everyone.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

I do not consider giving both the redirect and treestump to TMH to be a viable option, so I have not listed it. I think there may be a good case for plan B, but I will need to ask a few questions first.

TMH and diddin: ask the mod if the redirect is a standard ability or not. DO IT NOW. Also ask what happens if a player that the ability was redirected to is killed the same night as the redirect.

If you take the dayvig ability back but are targeted, doesn't the ability get lost from the game? Wouldn't that be worse than going to the void?

We should ask for clarification from the mod rather than assuming.

[Saint]

Actually,

diddin

can answer that same question.

And because I'm in a posting mood.

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

Cut.

1) In this instance I posted a defence, true, but to label all my posting as either defending myself or trying to preserve the status quo is a blatant misrepresentation. Point in case: Back at the beginning of January when very few people had so much as mentioned Powerrox and certainly no one had voted him in any seriousness I made a case for his lynch and placed the first vote on what became the lynch of the day. If that is posting to maintain the status quo then you have a very warped definition of status quo.

Could you provide another example? Leading a lynch on a village idiot isn't exactly a claim to fame.

thing is, how can you - if you are actually town - honestly condemn someone for doing something you are also guilty of.

Not everyone plays perfect games. Also, motivation.

You have a proof positive example

of a townie (yourself)

committing exactly the same act which makes that act, at the very least, a nulltell.

Why thank you~

His sudden willingness to vote AntB back during day 1 coming out of nowhere was scummy.

Being willing to vote someone without saying why

with no threat of a lynch

is a scummy move now? Without looking back through the QT I'm not sure if I was the one who gave him the idea that AntB was scummy, but I can certainly vouch for encouraging him here.

experienced Vi is calling TMH town despite a preponderance of scumminess

And I was even kind enough to say why. Oh, you're not going to bother with that, are you?

In the absence of a flip on either this point is the weakest, but given that I strongly read TMH as scum - as in, I'd be personally banging in the nails at his crucifixion if I didn't think we owed it to ourselves to at least try and keep the dayvig power and attempt to take both him and the stump out tomorrow - I think it's at least a little valid. Hint: TMH is the reason I most think you'll lose that little bet.

Vote Saint

Someone, anyone. Spot the contradiction in motives in this quote.

Cut again.

nhammen

- Consider that if diddin is scum, you just gave him license to throw the dayvig to a partner instead. If diddin is Town, you just gave him license to give it to someone who might not be Town.

[LimMePls]

Actually,

diddin

can answer that same question.

And because I'm in a posting mood.

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

Cut.[/i][/color]

1) In this instance I posted a defence, true, but to label all my posting as either defending myself or trying to preserve the status quo is a blatant misrepresentation. Point in case: Back at the beginning of January when very few people had so much as mentioned Powerrox and certainly no one had voted him in any seriousness I made a case for his lynch and placed the first vote on what became the lynch of the day. If that is posting to maintain the status quo then you have a very warped definition of status quo.

Could you provide another example? Leading a lynch on a village idiot isn't exactly a claim to fame.

thing is, how can you - if you are actually town - honestly condemn someone for doing something you are also guilty of.

Not everyone plays perfect games. Also, motivation.

You have a proof positive example

of a townie (yourself)

committing exactly the same act which makes that act, at the very least, a nulltell.

Why thank you~

His sudden willingness to vote AntB back during day 1 coming out of nowhere was scummy.

Being willing to vote someone without saying why

with no threat of a lynch

is a scummy move now? Without looking back through the QT I'm not sure if I was the one who gave him the idea that AntB was scummy, but I can certainly vouch for encouraging him here.

experienced Vi is calling TMH town despite a preponderance of scumminess

And I was even kind enough to say why. Oh, you're not going to bother with that, are you?

In the absence of a flip on either this point is the weakest, but given that I strongly read TMH as scum - as in, I'd be personally banging in the nails at his crucifixion if I didn't think we owed it to ourselves to at least try and keep the dayvig power and attempt to take both him and the stump out tomorrow - I think it's at least a little valid. Hint: TMH is the reason I most think you'll lose that little bet.

Vote Saint

Someone, anyone. Spot the contradiction in motives in this quote.

Cut again.

nhammen

- Consider that if diddin is scum, you just gave him license to throw the dayvig to a partner instead. If diddin is Town, you just gave him license to give it to someone who might not be Town.

Could you please put new names onto quotes if you are going to quote me, and then quote other people? Some may think these are all quotes from me.

[nhammen]

If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments.

nhammen

- Consider that if diddin is scum, you just gave him license to throw the dayvig to a partner instead. If diddin is Town, you just gave him license to give it to someone who might not be Town.[/i][/color]

Yes, that is what I said. Which is why I am leaning towards diddin taking the ability for himself, depending upon the answers he gives to his questions. Or rather, the answers the mod gives.

[Saint]

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

--

By "Cut" that means someone posted ahead of me, so that kind of implied that I was responding to someone else... Either way, I can do that next time.

[q21]

1) In this instance I posted a defence, true, but to label all my posting as either defending myself or trying to preserve the status quo is a blatant misrepresentation. Point in case: Back at the beginning of January when very few people had so much as mentioned Powerrox and certainly no one had voted him in any seriousness I made a case for his lynch and placed the first vote on what became the lynch of the day. If that is posting to maintain the status quo then you have a very warped definition of status quo.

Could you provide another example? Leading a lynch on a village idiot isn't exactly a claim to fame.

I actually mentioned one in the post you're quoting here. It was to do with two irrefutably scummy things you've done, accusations which, interestingly enough, you have neglected to respond to. Just for good measure I placed the first vote on a diddin miniwagon early on day 1, granted I wasn't wading into entirely unsupported territory, but also certainly wasn't just posting to maintain the status quo.

thing is, how can you - if you are actually town - honestly condemn someone for doing something you are also guilty of.

Not everyone plays perfect games. Also, motivation.

Interestingly the motivation that you ascribed to me for (supposedly) dropping EC down my scumlist was identical to the motivation you had for doing so - just, you disagreed with my reads of the people I put above him, which is you're right for all that I think you're wrong. In fact your motivation for misrepping me with regard to my level of suspicion on EC was so that you could hypocritically accuse me; which is a genuinely scummy motivation.

You have a proof positive example

of a townie (yourself)

committing exactly the same act which makes that act, at the very least, a nulltell.

Why thank you~

*Sigh* You probably realise this, but just in case: The "yourself" in that sentence refers to any townie contemplating potentially making a hypocritical accusation. Not you specifically.

His sudden willingness to vote AntB back during day 1 coming out of nowhere was scummy.

Being willing to vote someone without saying why

with no threat of a lynch

is a scummy move now? Without looking back through the QT I'm not sure if I was the one who gave him the idea that AntB was scummy, but I can certainly vouch for encouraging him here.

Being willing to vote someone without giving even the slightest hint of a reason has always been scummy. As for being able to vouch for Furc: There is no vouching for each other in a hydra, you're both equally responsible for everything that the hydra says or does.

experienced Vi is calling TMH town despite a preponderance of scumminess

And I was even kind enough to say why. Oh, you're not going to bother with that, are you?

I don't buy the why you presented and am more inclined to view it as an attempt to convince others to drop their perfectly valid suspicions.

[Saint]

However, it seems at least possible that we have multiple scumteams, so I would shy away from calling diddin confirmed town.

Oh, so the "multiple scum

teams

" idea is nothing new.~

Cut... again. Only when I make posts

---

I actually mentioned one in the post you're quoting here. It was to do with two irrefutably scummy things you've done, accusations which, interestingly enough, you have neglected to respond to. Just for good measure I placed the first vote on a diddin miniwagon early on day 1, granted I wasn't wading into entirely unsupported territory, but also certainly wasn't just posting to maintain the status quo.

"Irrefutably scummy"... Oh dear. I don't suppose you know who this "Furcolow" character is or why he requested a teaching hydra, right? And I suppose all those Townies you've been advocating the lynch of were irrefutably scummy as well? (hint: they were, but they were still Townies)

I can't respond to what Furcolow has done because this is a teaching hydra. Rather than explicitly direct how he plays, I let him post as he liked and try to guide his suspicions (somewhat - that implosion hate D1 was entirely his idea) and give him ideas on how to improve the kind of play he has. (I actually think the hydra is making it worse, but we can discuss that later.) Originally I had no intent to participate in this game - lest you don't believe me, look at the teaching hydra Alnara in Beefster's Open Game - but this game just became -that hard- to watch.

Incidentally, Saint was doing pretty fine survival-wise without me posting. Meanwhile during the week I'm pressed for time, in high-stress mode, and not taking on new commitments. That I chose to come into this game and read 36 pages so far and generally make hay should say something to anyone who doesn't already have a conclusion made about this slot's alignment.

In fact your motivation for misrepping me with regard to my level of suspicion on EC was so that you could hypocritically accuse me; which is a genuinely scummy motivation.

My "motivation" for misrepping you was that I misunderstood your posts, opening the door to what would otherwise have been a legitimate argument. Sure, that's genuinely scummy. (>")>

Being willing to vote someone without giving even the slightest hint of a reason has always been scummy.

It's bad play, but certainly not necessarily scummy. You'll never catch scum that way unless they're already being bussed.

I don't buy the why you presented and am more inclined to view it as an attempt to convince others to drop their perfectly valid suspicions.

"You don't buy the why" sounds funny, but other than that I just see this as an excuse not to talk about it. I'm reasonable, I would ASSUME other Townies are also reasonable, the points laid out are thought through, etc.

And you didn't mention the conflict of motivation, so I will for you.

You're voting me in no small part because you think TMH is scum and I'm defending him. That's nice. Now when I flip Town, what will that say about TMH? Nothing at all. If you lynched TMH and he flipped Town, you would see that I certainly DON'T have the scum motivation to defend him as a partner - and considering that he's lynchbait, probably none whatsoever regardless. So why vote me?

[popsofctown]

*RedCoyote - The second-biggest active lurker in the game. There was one time when he said something that made me consider that he might be looking from a pro-Town motivation, but most of his posts are just walls that don't go anywhere, don't do anything, and uphold the status quo.

Oh, please. You know as much as anyone that I do not have the opportunity to log onto MS numerous times over the course of the day. Very often my posts happen late at night after normal people in the western world has went to sleep. If I had a nickel for everytime someone tried to push this lame activity argument on me, I'd be retired on a beach in the Cayman Islands. I like how my posts don't go anywhere yet I very nearly had theman lynched yesterday, I began the wagon to get Helghast shot yesterday, and I was one of the only people to stand in the way of implosion and diddin running roughshod over the town today. I mean, compared with Lateralus, SC, LynchMePls, and ckd,

I'm

the lurker? You're really missing the bigger picture here. Unfortunately I can't claim that my reads have really helped the town progress so far, but I've undoubtedly had a lot of influence here. I'd argue that I've been one of the top three most influential players in this game.

I don't think Vi is criticizing your post count, but rather how much you're really saying in each of your posts.

The virus may get unleashed everyday. With or without a day vig. I suggest we keep the dayvig for one more day and get rid of TMH and the Treestump once and for all D3.

Ugh. We do need to get rid of the treestump. I guess you're actually right, the good thing is for the virus to come back tomorrow. And your proposed procedure for handling the virus is no worse than a lynch, so I guess it'd be an ok thing for the virus and daykill to come back tomorrow.

TMH should have shot ckd though. Goooosh. *sigh*.

We probably need to build a pretty strong consensus on what kind of person we'd like to kill along with the treestump tomorrow. I don't want ckd to pass the treestump to someone he think is scummy, and then, whether he's right or wrong, us not having a consensus that that dude is scum.


@hypocrisy as a scumtell- it's not. Empirically I see it as much from townies as scum if not more. Logically, it's not wrong to be hypocritical. LynchMePls is more likely to be scum because he lynched town a lot this game. So did I, but it doesn't matter, if you look at games scum are more likely to be on mislynches. I have a proof positive example of an exception, sure, but one exception doesn't disprove the rule when it's a correlation rather than a hard law.

If anything, scum would be less likely to bring up scumtells they are guilty of because it reminds people and could lead to their lynch, while townies care less if they can kill a scum with their hypocritical reasoning.


@Vi hasn't read the game therefore has no opinion- What kind of total bullcrap is that? Every single post someone makes has evidence of alignment in it. You dont need the whole thread to get an accurate read. This makes no sense. Have you guys heard that in myth and legend, people actually lynch scum on day one with just a few pages of posts? Well they tried it on myth busters and the dummy asphyxiated and myth confirmed, it happens. You don't need a thesis' worth of posting from someone to make a read, and I'd be more than willing to bet that variance between player ability can cause drastic differences in amount of material needed.

[Saint]

I caused StrangerCoug to have the virus. The daykill is protown, as is pseudolynching with the virus so I selected the player I felt most likely to survive the night but who still had a town feel.

My original choice though, was MoI, with similar logic. I spent so much time combing through his posts during my decisionmaking process and so little with Coug's smaller opportunity that I mistakenly thought I had passed my ability to MoI, sending it to the void. When Coug claimed he had the ability, I was very confused, and I wanted to see if it was the same virus Parama started the game with. If it was, it implied a bus driver.

I felt really stupid when just a few minutes later I remembered considering StrangerCoug as an option, and then subsequently decided that posting volume is correlated with nightkillability and that I should target Coug instead of MoI.

Wait, wait, and also what. Bringing the Virus in is a cycling power?

Could you slowly explain how this works for me? In that explanation, can you go over how Parama got the Virus D1?

[popsofctown]

A Wizard Did It.

[Saint]

Now at Page 40. Current standings:

SCUM

*RedCoyote - Gratuitously pushing responsibility for the D1 lynch onto nhammen and Bunnylover was AwEsOmE. (809) 903 read as slimy to me.
*q21 - 812 is lol, 897 looks REALLY manufactured.
*TheLonging/Lateralus22 - That was an EXCELLENT snap to calling Bunnylover a liar in 978 *applause*
*quadz - Overhyping Drivergate, asking if anyone was interested in doing Moai's action claiming sequence without actually acting on it, didn't even bother responding to diddin's vote as far as I saw, hype hype hype hype hype
|<gap>|
*I Am Innocent - Pushes on pops seem really contrived from where I'm sitting.
*LynchMePlz - Shameless bandwagoning is indeed shameless bandwagoning but at least he's consistent and not quite completely opportunistic about it.
*Nero Cain - His posts have gone from reading like cocky Town to reckless scum (765 with "sorry but you feel like opportunistic scum", 858 and 859, 989 looks hilariously bad on its face).
|<gap>|
*EtherealCookie/nhammen - Still catching up, still could go either way on his catchup posts. 947 was physically painful to read, but beyond that he's not actively helping scum, so...
*popsofctown - Completely against expectations, his version of discussing the scumkills and the Virus and RC washing his hands of the lynch seemed shockingly Townish. What happened, and do it again o.o
|<gap>|
*diddin - Some of what he's saying is incrediwrong, but I don't think scum would brag about confirmed Towniness so much based on a flip they knew in advance would be Town.
*WrathChild - I'll admit he's pushing the envelope on being scummy in this segment, though.
*themanhimself - I don't think he would argue with Moai like that at the end of D1 as scum.
*curiouskarmadog - Whiny and a touch unhelpful but otherwise not anything big.
*StrangerCoug - Behavior around the Virus, esp. not giving it to Parama, looks VERY Townish.
*Bunnylover - Would almost certainly NOT have claimed to have been passed MoI's ability if he were part of a scumgroup.
*implosion - No change, although few posts.

TOWN

Bottom tier is still untouchable. Can't wait to be done with this.

---------

Cut: Okay, how about just explaining how it works for me? I'm being :slow:

[popsofctown]

I caused StrangerCoug to have the virus. That may or may not be the same way Parama came to acquire the virus day 1. The virus may or may not be able to appear tomorrow.

I haven't divulged much info about this, and won't until I see why this info satisfies the Need To Know rule for the town. From my viewpoint extra info disclosure regarding this helps scum more than town, but if you can show that's not the case I'll gladly tell more.

[Saint]

I caused StrangerCoug to have the virus. That may or may not be the same way Parama came to acquire the virus day 1. The virus may or may not be able to appear tomorrow.

I haven't divulged much info about this, and won't until I see why this info satisfies the Need To Know rule for the town. From my viewpoint extra info disclosure regarding this helps scum more than town, but if you can show that's not the case I'll gladly tell more.

...
I can see how the question I want to ask can help scum to have an answer to.
Well, the answer should come out or become irrelevant in due time.

[popsofctown]

Im on Vi's town list, I think im doing something wrong

[themanhimself]

I'd just as soon have you keep that to yourself, I frankly never liked MoI's plan, I don't think the mass claim thing helps town at all. Knowing the roles helps them control their flow

[StrangerCoug]

That's funny. When Furcolow posts, I feel suicidal, yet when Vi posts I get a decent town read.

I feel a bit out of this game, so I'm going to go through the last three pages again. Hang on a bit...

[implosion]

Knowing the roles helps them control their flow

How is this and why would you know this? Is one role easier to "control the flow of" than another??? Also,

themanhimself

- Please tell me if it is possible for Mafiosi to pass each other abilities with the Driver. If it doesn't say, ask for mod clarification.

In fact, both diddin and tmh should answer this.

Also, since I don't appear to be voting at the moment, VOTE: RedCoyote, I've already explained why I think he's scummy (pushing for diddin lynch mostly).

On the option of lynching tmh - it would clear diddin, after which we could have the doctor prot- er, the watcher wat- er, um... never mind...

Even if it'd get rid of the busdrive, I'd rather not lynch diddin since he's town unless it's multiball.

Gut still says ckd scum too, but that's for another time obviously.

Also, to all the people saying pops is scum, I've frankly had a towntell on him since the beginning of day one, and still do. I also think Saint is town at this point.

---

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

[StrangerCoug]

Other than a town nhammen read, nothing I could extract, and I

KNOW

there's a gold mine of stuff I could comment on...

ARGH!

Ah, well. I'm still going to be productive, though.

VOTE: themanhimself
See #679 for the original reason. Also, the more I think of his killing Parama, the less I like it anymore. There was a reason Parama was not given the bomb. Vigging Parama was the cheapest option themanhimself had, and he took it. I regret my support of it.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, and...

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

I don't consider it too bad.

[diddin]

My ability is standard. Any ability that is nonstandard is stated to be so in the PM according to the mod.

[implosion]

That isn't the question - the question is, can a mafia member use the bus driver ability to redirect an ability from one member of their scumgroup to another?

[themanhimself]

According to the PM, there are no restrictions. It's merely "person X's ability goes to person Y", I don't think I really have the right to PM the mod about it now but diddin can

[implosion]

Don't have the right to?

Here, I'll even write your pm for you.

Code: Select all

Mod, about that bus driver ability I had yesterday, can mafia use it to pass abilities between mafia members?

[Saint]

That's funny. When Furcolow posts, I feel suicidal, yet when Vi posts I get a decent town read.

Vi+Furcolow: Spreading the Schizo.

Actually, it's probably only a little different from playing with either of us normally

Gut still says ckd scum too, but that's for another time obviously.

I don't think ckd is scum UNLESS there are multiple scumgroups.

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:

We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void).

ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

The bolded is fine. I don't care what you do with the stump and I'm not up for a tmh kill.

You can't control the virus kill with the method you described because the person who gets the virus has to acknowledge that they have it (by opening the PM or generally showing up onsite).

Also, the more I think of his killing Parama, the less I like it anymore. There was a reason Parama was not given the bomb. Vigging Parama was the cheapest option themanhimself had, and he took it. I regret my support of it.

In retrospect I actually think giving Parama the Virus was the second- or third-best move we could have made (the best two being to keep passing it and move on, and not putting it in play at all). The only way to kill someone with the Virus is to beat them down emotionally until they agree to commit suicide, which is not at all unlike self-hammering in regards to their Win Condition and also just not fun to do or watch.

[diddin]

I honestly don't see why you couldn't, implosion. I also doubt the Mod would tell me since he wouldn't tell me, a townie, what scum can or can't do.