Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[Saint]

I honestly don't see why you couldn't, implosion. I also doubt the Mod would tell me since he wouldn't tell me, a townie, what scum can or can't do.

The mod cannot answer questions about abilities that are not confirmed to exist.

Since YOU undeniably and confirmedly have the ability, it's YOUR job to stop making excuses, stop looking sketchy*, and

ask

.

*unless you're scum, in which case don't mind me. (>")>

[themanhimself]

I honestly don't see why you couldn't, implosion. I also doubt the Mod would tell me since he wouldn't tell me, a townie, what scum can or can't do.

Are you kidding me with this shit? That's the most blatant and ill-conceived attempt to cast yourself as innocent that I have ever seen. You sound like Brigid O'Shaughnessy from the Maltese Falcon. I can just picture you innocently glancing upwards and fluttering your eyebrows while you said that.

Besides:

@MOD – Please confirm that Mafia members are prohibited from trying to pass a Cycling Power to a player they will use their Factional kill on.

The only restriction any existing anti-town faction may have on their cycling abilities is that they may not pass a standard ability to any living partner that they may have.

Narsis is now under replacement, simply waiting for confirmation from the replacement.

Most of the V/LA that have been announced should be expiring today.

So I guess MoI was scum? Oh, wait....

[themanhimself]

*eyelashes

[diddin]

You've played two days of a game with me. You should know by now that almost everything I say is dripping with sarcasm. Shame on you.

[nhammen]

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

UNVOTE:

At this point, I'm not terribly confident in any of my reads. diddin's D1 play, though, stands out to me as the scummiest thing thus far, so

VOTE: diddin

One problem with this post. Without diddin, the dayvig probably goes to the void. So why exactly are you wanting to not lynch tmh if it isn't to save the dayvig?

Yes, if there's a vigilante ability, then knowing who had it last night will definitely help the mafia kill it. Obviously. I mean, it's not like it would have been passed or anything.

I can offer a counter argument to your sarcasm, but it is actually not a very good counter-argument, so I will say that I agree with the plan that if a vig shot one of the two players last night, they should out themselves now.

--THE DAYKILL IS CONNECTED TO THE VIRUS
--WE ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET THE VIRUS BACK (in fact

I'd prefer it if we didn't

)
--DO NOT BANK ON HAVING IT

I agree with, particularly the bolded. I mean, actually thinking about it, the virus is not a good way to kill people. If we tell person x to just sit back and die, if they are town they may oblige, but if they're mafia they'll just pass it to someone else (if they're going to die anyway they'd have no reason not to pass it on), so it's more likely to hit town than mafia.

Frankly, I'm considering the benefits of just lynching tmh today. It would get us started with our first mafia hit (if he's town I may quit this site), which could help raise morale, it could clear diddin (or at least clear him from one mafia faction if it's multiball), and the daykill is so variable that the more I think about it, the less I want it here. I mean, it's caused two miskills already. The only argument I've heard against that is that it gains information... so what, people are talking all the time, that should be plenty of information, and information is not worth miskills.

Hmmm... I'm thinking about this. You are right: the virus is pretty much a guaranteed mis-kill. The only benefit of the virus is that it allows for the dayvig. Is that enough? This means that at best we have a 1 to 1 trade. With how much of a likelihood there is of hitting town with the dayvig, that is not good enough. Well, I guess we could do a mathematical analysis to determine whether it is worth it, but I really don't feel like putting that much effort into a game.

No the other argument is that we will probably have no chance at getting rid of the Treestump.

The virus may get unleashed everyday. With or without a day vig. I suggest we keep the dayvig for one more day and get rid of TMH and the Treestump once and for all D3.

But this is a good argument for keeping the dayvig around for one more night at least. I'm still waiting for answers from diddin and tmh, so I'm not sure how I want to handle this.

My suggestion on handling the virus each day it remains in the game is to have everybody place a vote. Once everybody places a vote (without taking anyone pass L-2), the person with the majority takes the virus and holds it until they die. If they refuse to hold it (indicating scum), they automatically become the choice for the lynch, and we go ahead and lynch that player right then and there and do not use the virus that day. Virus problem averted.***

***D3 would be the one exception if we want to out TMH and Treestump with the Dayvig, we would need to come up with a 2nd alternative.

So, if we hit a townie, we do get a second chance to hit scum, but if we hit scum, we lynch immediately. Hmmm... I guess this is OK. Although, the chance of hitting two townies can be kinda bad. The only question is how to handle D3.

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

For the dayvig passing, that seems like a good suggestion. We want the list large enough that the scum can't predict it, and small enough that if diddin is scum, he doesn't have buddies on the list, and if he is town, there is a low chance of scum being selected. So... what size is that?
For the virus, would that work? Doesn't it only count after they read the virus pm? I'm not quite clear on exactly how it works. I guess there are a few questions I need to ask the mod.

That isn't the question - the question is, can a mafia member use the bus driver ability to redirect an ability from one member of their scumgroup to another?

But it

was

my question. Because NEITHER OF THEM asked the obvious questions. But diddin missed a question:

Also ask what happens if a player that the ability was redirected to is killed the same night as the redirect.

[diddin]

It would be voided, as if it were sent to someone who died by the original redirector, I guess.

And I was right. Mafia can use the redirection ability to pass abilities between themselves.

[Bunnylover]

I Am Innocent wrote:
My suggestion on handling the virus each day it remains in the game is to have everybody place a vote. Once everybody places a vote (without taking anyone pass L-2), the person with the majority takes the virus and holds it until they die. If they refuse to hold it (indicating scum), they automatically become the choice for the lynch, and we go ahead and lynch that player right then and there and do not use the virus that day. Virus problem averted.***

***D3 would be the one exception if we want to out TMH and Treestump with the Dayvig, we would need to come up with a 2nd alternative.

^ Love this idea.

Need to read page 61, but in pain at the moment and can't focus much.

[Saint]

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

--

By "Cut" that means someone posted ahead of me, so that kind of implied that I was responding to someone else... Either way, I can do that next time.

duh duh duh
nice alliteration, vi

[Saint]

honestly, to whoever was concerned with my AntB situation, I honestly felt he was going to flip scum. When I saw he was modkilled, I was very surprised, and I didn't know I hadn't mentioned him before, as I'd been talking with Vi about him.

Sorry! I've clarified this before, though.

I disagree on Q21 with you, vi, but I am definitely willing to see considering

[RedCoyote]

Proposing a No Lynch was a silly idea all around and based on fuzzy logic, but I'm not seeing where it was scummy so much as logically dubious and an easy lightning rod. I've already read that far, not that you would be interested in noticing

If you had have read that far then you probably wouldn't have been so quick to dismiss it as a political argument. Now if you want to write it off on account of him being effectively a newbie, that's a different story. I hadn't researched it that deeply, and since the man himself (pun intended) didn't bother to correct me, I just kind of assumed the seniority.

Regardless, when he was called out on it, he still defended his position. That's what really kept the ball rolling in my mind.

What, are we not supposed to comment about having more kills than expected (HINT: like I did a post or two ago and a few people thought it was a great idea)? Or are we always supposed to suspect two Mafias (I didn't until you said something)? What are you trying to push here?

Why needlessly speculate at all? An SK? Multiple teams? An ability nightkill? It could be a number of things. You don't need to remind us there was a second kill, and you certainly don't need to start putting your two cents in when your guess has no real weight (unless, of course, you do have inside information). Frankly, I don't like that "either this or that" way he phrased his comment either. So there's that.

tmh's logic for taking the daykill from diddin makes sense as either alignment. tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well).

I like how you bring this up, despite the fact that I came to the same conclusion, and leave out the whole "democratic kill" angle. theman wants us to believe he stole the daykill ability in order to democratically use it. I don't know if he ever brought this aspect up again today, and we know he certainly didn't use it in his Parama kill. Bottom line, that's what made the whole charade scummy, not the kneejerk stealing of it (which I admitted I probably would've considered myself had I had his ability), but that he comes out and tells everyone he wants to wash himself of the responsibility of killing someone himself. That got diddin into trouble (although everyone has since forgave him, apparently), so why shouldn't theman be held accountable?

COULD it have been scum-motivated? Yes of course, but Parama was probably very low on the list of targets scum would have conveniently wanted out of the way. COULD it be possible that this is a plot between diddin-scum and tmh-scum so that they got the daykill twice?

I'm backing away from a diddin lynch for now. I don't want it at the moment. Certainly not today. Now how would you come to the conclusion Parama was or wasn't low on the scum target list? I saw him as pretty solidly town, and I know you did too. Had he been forced to claimed for whatever reason, we now know he had the Doctor ability. I realize this was after the fact, but that doesn't mean the scum didn't know that Parama had the Doctor ability. So, no, I don't buy your defense of theman here either.

But I do appreciate you reading.

---

These were never responded to either.

Yes, I did. Post 809.

We already know he is scum, now we want to find connections. We should be using cycling to give us more confirmed town, and using reactions to find scum.

Tell that to Vi. Tell that to pops. If we can get theman's flip, we can start drawing concrete connections better than we're doing now. I'm telling you, if we rely too heavily on night ability swapping, we're seriously putting all our eggs in one basket. Very rarily do you want to leave someone who you think is scum alive.

I don't trust you enough for you to steal the dayvig. You need to redirect it to SOMEONE ELSE. Tomorrow, the dayvig WILL be used to kill TMH. Actually... crap. If diddin is scum, then he sends it to a protown looking scum, and if he is town, there is a possibility it could end up with scum, because he doesnt know alignments. But if he steals it for himself, then scum can kill him. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Plan A) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH or diddin; give Redirect to player that is not TMH or diddin
A1) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are different players
A2) Player that gets dayvig and redirect are same players
Plan B) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to diddin; give Redirect to player that is not diddin or TMH
Plan C) Steal dayvig from TMH; give dayvig to player that is not TMH; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan D) Do not steal dayvig; DO NOT GIVE TREESTUMP TO TMH; give redirect to TMH; lynch TMH
Plan E) Lynch TMH now; forget about the rest of this crap.

These are exactly the kind of strategies I had hoped to avoid. We're seriously banking on the idea that there is one large scum group, despite the fact we had two night kills, that diddin is confirmed town, that everyone will pass their abilities in a correct way, and that scum have no abilities that could screw up this plan. You're willing to go down that path rather than trust your instinct and lynch scum based on pure merit?

---

q21 v.s. Saint is probably town v.s. town.

---

I don't think Vi is criticizing your post count, but rather how much you're really saying in each of your posts.

Do you concur?

---

A couple of questions. Is the Virus ability for sure coming back tomorrow? Why are people assuming this? Just because it did today?

Additionally, I think I'd make a good candidate to get the Bus Driver ability tomorrow, so I'll throw my hat in the ring.

[popsofctown]

Wait, what? Why?

[RedCoyote]

Well, if we're making a list. I mean, could you possibly think of someone more townie than me?

[popsofctown]

Yes, by covering your name with a sticker and reading the player list

[I Am Innocent]

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

What I found scummy was both players made it sound like we were going to vote democratically on it and how to use it, but in the end it seemed like both players made critical decisions on it themselves.

Diddin - in the end he decided to only consider two outted vanilla players, and nobody else. This was under the pretense of not outting more power roles. When the person with the power made that decision, it became un-Democratic IMO.

TMH - Says he is going to do it democratically, than gives us

only

24 hours to make a pick, than makes a pick that did not feel like a majority to me,

and kills him without asking for a claim, which I specifically told him to do so

. He got rid of a strong power role that I hinted was probably with Parama, based on all that DBE said. Very scummy indeed.

What Diddin did at least had some pro-town motives to it, but in the end if he is scum could have boxed a kill on two known players who were not his teammates. If Diddin or nhammen flip scum, I will be targeting the other one, as I specifically asked during that time about EC/nhammen, and Diddin told me no. The honest truth though is that I am getting a townie feel from both of these players lately, but it is still noted.

TMH's moves were obv scummy. He told us how long we had before he made a decision, made the decision before the 24 hours were up, and made it on a player with a likely strong power role without giving that player a chance to claim. #1 suspect and he will die D3.

[Saint]

Why needlessly speculate at all? An SK? Multiple teams? An ability nightkill? It could be a number of things. You don't need to remind us there was a second kill, and you certainly don't need to start putting your two cents in when your guess has no real weight (unless, of course, you do have inside information). Frankly, I don't like that "either this or that" way he phrased his comment either. So there's that.

Indeed, why needlessly speculate, RedCoyote? You and quadz were the ones who mentioned "Scum Group 1". Since you just made a dichotomy between guesses having no real weight and havng inside information, should I take that to mean you're needlessly Spreading the Hysteria with that comment, or should I take that to mean you have inside information and know the truth of it?

In giving only two options for explaining both kills he forgot about multiple scumgroups, which are probably the LEAST common between Vig and SK for possible reasons. Forgivable. So, that.

theman wants us to believe he stole the daykill ability in order to democratically use it. I don't know if he ever brought this aspect up again today, and we know he certainly didn't use it in his Parama kill. Bottom line, that's what made the whole charade scummy, not the kneejerk stealing of it (which I admitted I probably would've considered myself had I had his ability), but that he comes out and tells everyone he wants to wash himself of the responsibility of killing someone himself. That got diddin into trouble (although everyone has since forgave him, apparently), so why shouldn't theman be held accountable?

Well, for one, he didn't shoot democratically. And he did say he wanted to shoot in like 48 hours. The rest will get answered below.

Now how would you come to the conclusion Parama was or wasn't low on the scum target list? I saw him as pretty solidly town, and I know you did too. Had he been forced to claimed for whatever reason, we now know he had the Doctor ability. I realize this was after the fact, but that doesn't mean the scum didn't know that Parama had the Doctor ability. So, no, I don't buy your defense of theman here either.

Until DBE claimed Doctor for Parama, sure he was Town, but he was doing the next best thing to actively hindering the Town. Why kill that kind of player as scum?

If we can get theman's flip, we can start drawing concrete connections better than we're doing now. I'm telling you, if we rely too heavily on night ability swapping, we're seriously putting all our eggs in one basket. Very rarily do you want to leave someone who you think is scum alive.

You can't draw concrete connections from Town-flips. But I have to question why you're not even considering that.

There is no dichotomy between using cycling connections and scumhunting. Moai's plan was the best and the fact that people don't want to go with it pretty much correlates with how we've had five VI-lynches in a row and there's no sign of stopping.

What I found scummy was both players made it sound like we were going to vote democratically on it and how to use it, but in the end it seemed like both players made critical decisions on it themselves.

Diddin - in the end he decided to only consider two outted vanilla players, and nobody else. This was under the pretense of not outting more power roles. When the person with the power made that decision, it became un-Democratic IMO.

TMH - Says he is going to do it democratically, than gives us only 24 hours to make a pick, than makes a pick that did not feel like a majority to me, and kills him without asking for a claim, which I specifically told him to do so. He got rid of a strong power role that I hinted was probably with Parama, based on all that DBE said. Very scummy indeed.

You're ignoring a few key points here.

1) If Lat's vigvote counts were correct, the choices diddin made

were indeed

between the top two vote-getters. That they happened to be claimed Vanillas was a pleasant and desirable side effect.

2) TMH only said he wanted to demo-kill... once, IIRC. Then LMP got in his face and called him scummy for even suggesting it, saying that it would say more if he shot someone and took the consequences. So that's what he did. Incidentally, Doctor being a "strong power role" only seems to apply in this game where there's only one, maybe two people talking sense at a time.

While I have a fairly Town read on WrathChild, it's worth noting that both diddin and TMH were deciding between WC and their eventual targets.

[curiouskarmadog]

oooohhhhh...to have the vig power today............or even a vote...

[StrangerCoug]

Hey, instead of complaining about what you can't do, why don't you make a concerted effort at what you

CAN

do? You know, like... scumhunt? Other than themanhimself, I have no clue whom you suspect and why, and even with what I do know about your suspicions with TMH it's not an awful lot.

[curiouskarmadog]

Hey, instead of complaining about what you can't do, why don't you make a concerted effort at what you

CAN

do? You know, like... scumhunt? Other than themanhimself, I have no clue whom you suspect and why, and even with what I do know about your suspicions with TMH it's not an awful lot.

speakign of scum hunting..

before you made this post, did you at least go back to review my posts to see?? yeah thats what I thought...I have stated why I feel TMH is scummy (at least twice)...

bottom line, stealing the vig ability to kill a townie is scummy (on many different levels)..so you can play down that suspicion all you want (noted), but it was a scummy move.

[StrangerCoug]

I see how you got what you got very clearly, but I'm expecting a lot more out of you. You're after one person for one thing. Seventeen players remain. There are not sixteen townies left—I'd say at least ten, maybe eleven. You're not expected to have a top five or a top six, but you

ARE

expected to have more than one scumread at this stage of the game. Three would be nice.

[LimMePls]

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

I have a few mixed emotions on this. For one, I like that he took the shot himself. Of course I was screaming my head off about how taking the shot by himself was townie, so now there is a giant wall of wifom around that. On the other hand, he seems to want to try and weasel out of the results by suggesting that it was still semi-democratic. See this quote:

I count somewhere around five people who wanted parama dead plus me, the game was stalling and he was being unhelpful so I took it into my own hands

So which is it, did you take matters in your own hands, or did you do it because there were alot of other people who wanted him dead?

[diddin]

>RC gets flak for pushing me hard.
>RC announces he doesn't want my lynch today.

hmmmmmm...

[Nero Cain]

I see how you got what you got very clearly, but I'm expecting a lot more out of you. You're after one person for one thing. Seventeen players remain. There are not sixteen townies left—I'd say at least ten, maybe eleven. You're not expected to have a top five or a top six, but you

ARE

expected to have more than one scumread at this stage of the game. Three would be nice.

QFT!!!

TMH is scum. WC seems like his buddy. CKD is scum. Quadz is prolly his buddy.

[q21]

And you didn't mention the conflict of motivation, so I will for you.

You're voting me in no small part because you think TMH is scum and I'm defending him. That's nice. Now when I flip Town, what will that say about TMH? Nothing at all. If you lynched TMH and he flipped Town, you would see that I certainly DON'T have the scum motivation to defend him as a partner - and considering that he's lynchbait, probably none whatsoever regardless. So why vote me?

You're misrepping me, yet again. I actually said that the point about you're interaction with TMH was the weakest of the reasons for voting you. That aside, the point you make here would be entirely valid in a normal game - and were this a normal game without the role cycling mechanic I would be gladly voting TMH, but that isn't the case. TMH has the dayvig ability, and that ability is the only way we know of for sure to get rid of the treestump, and we do need to get rid of the treestump.

I'm not going to get into the other points mentioned in this post again. I've made the points and defended them, you've refuted twice; I now call on the town to read and decide. Hint: The right decision is that Saint's scum.

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

I consider the dayvig very valuable because, as stated above, I think it's the only way we know we have to get rid of the treestump. Of course, if there's a nightvig they could just shoot ckd and be done with it. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of sending the treestump to TMH, because if we do loose the dayvig we'd be forced to let him live until day 4, of course the problem with that is that by dealing with the stump separate from TMH we could be leaving it too late to actually do anything about it.
I do like you're idea with regard to diddin redirecting the dayvig pass to one of a group of people - I suggest you and SC be on that list, not sure who else.

@pops - I tend to read hypocrisy as a scumtell to some degree all the time, though it is weaker in some cases (such as the example you give) than others. In the case in point with Saint I'm confident its genuinely scummy. Further discussion on whether its a scumtell is, I think, mafia discussion.

Agree with SC that CKD, treestump or not, needs to put forward more than one scumread.

[I Am Innocent]

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:
We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void). ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

I consider the day vig very valuable while the tree stump is still out there.

Not sure we need a list of a few people, would prefer it just be random or we give a list of a few people

not

to send it to.

100% think CKD sends the stump to TMH.

The spamming doesn't seem to work, as the 75 post count seems to not start until the person reads their PM. That is why it was so hard for it to work today. If TMH doesn't agree to hold the virus, he automatically becomes the day vig D3. If next most suspicious person does not agree to hold the virus, they become the lynch D3.

[I Am Innocent]

WrathChild:

Parama, The man himself, Diddin, Lateralus22, popsofclown, powerrox93, I am Innocent

(7)

EC:

RedCoyote, Saint, curiouskarmadog, I Am Innocent

(4)

Helghast:

Lateralus22, pops

(2)

Nero Cain:

chkflip

(1)

Narsis:

Saint

(1)

Current hit list for didden, note there

may be some errors so please point them out.

I've got your name there if you've expressed some interest in the vig candidate even if they weren't your first choice but you were willing to compromise but haven't got your name next to someone unless I thought you said exactly that you would be cool with switching to them.

Yet Helghast, who was under EC at this moment, was the hit. Could it be because of the following three posts, which were made prior to this vote count by Lat? (I say yes):

I fail to see what's scummy about EC at all... if someone can post a case I'll consider it.

I'd be more willing to lynch Wrath... Helghast seems to be more of a vigbait player.

However I don't want to have ANOTHER claim and risk outing powerful roles. I've already forced one claim and really don't want to make someone else claim.

He's posted... pretty much a whole lot of nothing really. His last post may be a chainsaw, but those read null without a flip.

Unless there are some serious objections, I'm gonna go ahead and shoot Helghast. I'll support a lynch of Wrath today instead as Helghast is screaming vigbait to me quite a bit.

Count me as a 2nd who has not seen anything scummy about Helghast. What is the reasoning there?

As for EC, his attack on Parama was all over the place. He attacked him for passing the Bomb off, the alternative was to keep it. I questioned him on this and did not care for the response.

Quite a few people have said EC. If you are not going to switch to EC, my vote is to keep it on the player who has claimed no power (WC) before Helghast.

You realize I'm talking about themanhimself in the first paragraph, right?

I'm not shooting EC. Helghast has already claimed no power as well.

So regarding the below, I believe Lat's (later) vote counts were swayed by the fact the person holding the day vig said EC was off limits. (Post one, why is EC scummy, Post two, I don't want to out any more power roles, Post three, I am not shooting EC) Agree?

You're ignoring a few key points here.

1) If Lat's vigvote counts were correct, the choices diddin made

were indeed

between the top two vote-getters. That they happened to be claimed Vanillas was a pleasant and desirable side effect.