Newbie 1046: Game Over

[AwesomePoe]

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5. Actually I was on my own on WIR p99 to p114. This all seems like a nasty defense on something you can’t change and shows something you don’t want other people to see.

You do make one good point. cflip was only barely active because of his player analysis.

@ hurri: I haven't put myself in my analysis. That's why I left myself out of the analysis. I just plain don't say a thing about me. You are not active because during the first part of the day, we don't have many post from you. Then you get active and then you start voting. You are a late-starter more than anything, but that wasn't a objective enough to put in.

[Ghostlin]

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5. Actually I was on my own on WIR p99 to p114. This all seems like a nasty defense on something you can’t change and shows something you don’t want other people to see.

You do make one good point. cflip was only barely active because of his player analysis.

Except you joined a wagon that was started by the IC on P13, and joined by Deer about P49. So you did join an existing wagon and never really hopped off.

In fact, you seemed very concerned about the WIR wagon all that day, particularly near the end of it:

This post stood out to me:

Random thoughts aren't constructive. They don't make good cases for voting, nor do they clarify another person's actions. Reading your post, WhenInRome, I don't understand what point any of these thoughts make.

WhenInRome was adding his input to the town, and AwesomePoe dismisses it as "not constructive" and "pointless." As far as I'm concerned, any input is helpful, even if they're mafia -- they could slip up and make a mistake, and if they're town, they probably have good ideas that the rest of the town can benefit from (which is why my lurking is so bad). Trying to shut someone up because you don't like their argument...

Here is the thing, there weren’t any arguments in WIR iso9 that I found informative. The case against me is based on my reaction to WIR09. You can objectively see my FoS turn into a vote after WIR09. This can be seen as tunneling. However the content of WIR09 and its meaningfulness is subjective. Most of his points were parroted from other posters. To me, he wasn’t being constructive he was trying to look like town without putting in the effort. This couple with his vote on Deer convinced me to put my vote on him.

AP didn't say anything until chkflip's diagnosis, where s/he said this:

I am being cautious around people who seem to be friendly.

yes, and this is good... but it's almost like s/he's looking for a reason to vote/put an FoS on someone, and not allowing the target of the FoS to exonerate themselves. Ultimately, all the town has on their side is logic and reason, and s/he dismisses it as "not constructive" and "pointless."

Many other people have asked for his defense which he has yet to provide.

You can’t say I’m not allowing him to exonerate himself when others have asked for it, and they haven’t had their concerns answered. I throw up my hands because I’m powerless to control WIR posting. As soon as people have a reason to remove their votes on him, they will.

@Ghostlin & Everybody: I want to see WIR claim and defend himself from the very possible lynch.

Did the bolded part actually concern you? I have to agree with one part of chkflip's analysis, you rode WIR pretty hard. In fact, all of your posts are vacant of anyone else. Now that we're at Day 2; who do you really like as scum now that WIR's gone?

Your analysis isn't 100% complete by the way; I did have a quick WIR vote and unvote on Day 1 when I realized such an action would put him at L-1 early in the day. I'm not sure that counts, considering your definition of unstable is:

Unstable means having a voting pattern that varys more than twice.

Fun fact: hurristat has had 15 posts this game (this includes Day 2), AP has had 12 posts this game, and nikita has had 7 posts.

So, AP: if I were to say something like: AP: Except for an early Deer lynch, he joined a early wagon against WIR and continued to hold that vote even when votes moved off and on the wagon; Stable, lurker.

Would you agree with that analysis of your Day 1 voting patterns?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: For entire accuracy, chkflip has had 8 posts. Also,

mod: I know chkflip declared V-LA due to some sensitive issues, but he's not posted after last Sunday and he said he'd be back Wednesday. Could you send him a prod, please? I'd think he'd want to be back for day 2.

[StefanB]

Awesome Poe wrote:

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5. Actually I was on my own on WIR p99 to p114. This all seems like a nasty defense on something you can’t change and shows something you don’t want other people to see.

Sometimes I have the feeling that you don't read my post completly or I am to complicated again. (that was perhaps a little to nasty)
What I have got to critice in your post. I didn't have objections to you calling my an unstable votter I had problems with:

But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one.

The last sentence is simple untrue.
My vote having no value is somethink that other players have to dicied for themselfs, of course you could say that, you are the one I'm voting at the moment.
Nasty defence: I think I have been aggresive that game, but rearly nasty, what was so bad about my defence (not counting that I attacked you.
Somethink I can't change and don't want other people to see: Yes I can't chance the fact that I was eager to vote on the 1. day. I had my reasons for it. I think everone in this game knows the first think, just reading the game proves that.
What you completly missed is the fact that I didn't attack the vottingpattern I only attacked your analysis of that vottingpattern, hell I didn't even attack anythink on it, that was wrong, there are some very interestink gems found on it.

Another think:

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5.

Well, I we talk about joining waggons that have already one vote on it and take day 2 in account it gets:

Me being on

3 wagons the whole game

has nothing to do with you being on

4 wagons and not bandwagons

relevant.

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: (re Chkflip) The players got a PM that day 2 started, I don't think a prod will be more helpful than that.

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghostlin: yeah that’s a perfectly good analysis. I left myself open so that if somebody wanted to they could look at me and not have to take my word on my voting pattern. The reason I don’t show that vote/unvote was because the time between them was too small, so I didn’t consider it.

I think StefanB is pretty scummy. During day one he was pretty free with his vote, but never got much attention for it. He’s voted for just about everybody, but nobody has really cared, because a few posts later he turns his attention elsewhere. These votes have only put people into the L-3 or L-4. But I could easily see him hammering somebody later in the game when it takes less people to lynch.

Really I don’t care about nikit right now so I’m unvoting.

unvote

.

Awesome Poe wrote:

Sometimes I have the feeling that you don't read my post completely or I am too complicated again. (that was perhaps a little too nasty) What I have got to critique in your post. I didn't have objections to you calling me an unstable voter I had problems with:

But at this point a vote from SB is like an appendix. You don’t know what’s for but you got one.

The last sentence is simply untrue. My vote having no value is something that other players have to decide for themselves, of course you could say that, you are the one I'm voting at the moment. Nasty defense: I think I have been aggressive this game, but rarely nasty, what was so bad about my defense (not counting that I attacked you.)

Something I can't change and don't want other people to see: Yes I can't chance the fact that I was eager to vote on the first day. I had my reasons for it. I think everyone in this game knows the first thing, just reading the game proves that. What you completely missed is the fact that I didn't attack the voting pattern I only attacked your analysis of that voting pattern, hell I didn't even attack anything on it, that was wrong, there are some very interesting gems found on it.

You don’t want any attention drawn to yourself for your votes. You are the most active player here. But you place your votes where they have the least impact. You may vote for someone, but you’re just as likely to vote for some other lurker, or some other popular wagon. Looking at the voting pattern you have a candy cane where other people have milk duds.

The whole last few posts are you trying to expunge the record where all can see it. Just say your vote has as much value as anyone else’s. It’s true, nobody’s vote is more valuable than another. It takes any 5 to lynch.

Another thing:

Me being on one wagon day one has nothing to do with you being on 5.

Well, I we talk about joining wagons that have already one vote on it and take day 2 in account it gets:

Me being on

3 wagons the whole game

has nothing to do with you being on

4 wagons and not bandwagons

relevant.

Please don’t change my quotes. If you got something to say just say it and not confuse people.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghostlin: yeah that’s a perfectly good analysis. I left myself open so that if somebody wanted to they could look at me and not have to take my word on my voting pattern. The reason I don’t show that vote/unvote was because the time between them was too small, so I didn’t consider it.

I think StefanB is pretty scummy. During day one he was pretty free with his vote, but never got much attention for it. He’s voted for just about everybody, but nobody has really cared, because a few posts later he turns his attention elsewhere. These votes have only put people into the L-3 or L-4. But I could easily see him hammering somebody later in the game when it takes less people to lynch.

Really I don’t care about nikit right now so I’m unvoting.

unvote

.

There are no agnostics in Mafia. Town usually has an idea who they like for scum, scum knows who they must eliminate. Your wishy-washy almost bored pattern of voting

now

worries me, along with your active lurking Day 1. I wonder if you placed your vote where you knew it would be 'safe' Day 1; placed it on Nikitanit Day 2, worried your buddy might get lynched at L-2 when town's been going after an active lurker and then removed it with the reasoning 'but I don't care about nikit right now.'

HoS: Awesome Poe

The voting analysis seems to be a way to attack townies that you see as 'unstable' on day 1 while clearing yourself (you are the most stable voter on Day 1 including myself). Yes, Stefan's voted a lot of times but has always left some sort of case with his votes, and has used them perhaps an inexperienced tool to generate pressure; and each one of his victims has responded, like I placed that Day 1 vote on hurristat to get him moving. This is Day 2, you should have some definite opinions on who's scum and who's not:

who do you like for scum, and why?

Also I advise everyone here: voting patterns, while important are not the only thing that matters. Look at what people are saying with their votes. Analyze that. While the Day 1 voting chart is somewhat helpful, I'll admit, using it as a jumping off as your case shouldn't be the only reason. Reread Day 1. Analyze people in ISO. Ask yourself, 'what is this person NOT saying?'

My only complaint about Stefan is he's ratcheted it back from Day 2 to Day 1 when we need people to make cases and hit folks hard. Town needs to be an aggressive, working force. Being wishy washy is for scum. We need to be able to get scum to make gambits and bad plays.

Mod Edit: Quote tag added by request.

[Ghostlin]

EBOWP:

Mod: I screwed up. The unvote isn't mine, it's a quotation from AP, and I must of deleted the last quote tag. Could you fix and make sure my vote is still on nikitakit?

[GLaDOS]

Day Two Vote Count #1

2 nikitakit (Ghostlin, Haylen)
1 AwesomePoe (StefanB)

With

8

alive it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is February 11 at 8:30 PM CST.

Not Voting – 5 – AwesomePoe, chkflip, Deer, hurristat, nikitakit

Mod Note

: chkflip and nikitakit have been prodded.

[StefanB]

I should perhaps just shut up, but thats not my strongest side.
But let's review my votes und reaction of the people:
Vote 1: Haylen (RVS) not much reaction but votings at the beginning are just there to get the game started.
Vote 2: Ghostlin(reason: It's Haylens job), Reaction: A long discusion, convinced me in the end that Ghostlins argument was not one I believe in but he isn't scum.
Vote 3: Haylen: (Reason me not being good at waiting, wanting a reaction from her) Reaction: I got one. Perhaps my weakest vote/worst yesterday
Vote 4: Nikitakit: (I said before that I will go after lurkers, if there is nothing scummy from active players, worst Lurker) Reaction: I got one from him
Vote 5:AwesomePoe (The whole Ghostlins unvote line was strange/scummy) Reaction: You tryied to answere it and then didn't post anythink for the rest of the day.
Vote 6: WIR (WIR Post 13 und 14 was enough to make me vote him) Reaction: Okay here you are right, perhabs I have already lost the power of vote und voice

To get to the other points: I don't want any attention to my votes? I never did say that. In fact if I that would be true than I would have answered that. If I would be afraid of attention I wouldn't play the game differently.

You see me hammering pretty easy? I have never voted someone on more than L-2 in the whole game, the only time I was unsure how many votes someone had, I asked the mod for a votecount.

The last point was not me trying to confuse people. It is the point that you are one bandwaggon away from me, fun fact by your own definition you are one vote away from being unstable today.

Okay I give you that I was using my votes to get reaction (=better reads) from people. Which little imformation votehopping isn't somethink I think that is to terrible.

[StefanB]

Okay Ghostlin wrote:

My only complaint about Stefan is he's ratcheted it back from Day 2 to Day 1 when we need people to make cases and hit folks hard.

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean whit this, can you explain it?

[StefanB]

Just a few thinks before loging out, that have nothink to do with AP:

Haylen: Okay so did you really think WIR was the most suspicios or not? Thats not clear from your post.
Who do you think is most suspicios besides Nikitakit?

Deer: A very deerlike answere. Since you were one of the few people not okay with a WIR lynch, did you see somethink that we did miss?

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghostlin: You’ve asked this question persistently and to answer: my vote will speak for itself. My day one method of scum hunting only got rid of a player who didn’t want to play. Call this fence sitting but, nikit is a definite lurker and I don’t see any point of putting my vote on him if nothing is to be gained from it. Later in the day if it’s a deadline situation I’ll come back to it. Right now I am looking everybody.

The term “Unstable” maybe an inaccurate description, but it is only there to describe a pattern. The term “Lurker” is only a term that might be a mislabel, but it’s also just there to describe a pattern. Any good town will keep their own account of the reasons they vote. See how StepahB quickly read out his reasons? But this only came from repeated prodding. His voting pattern doesn't look very good, but his reasons look much better.


With the self hammer of WIR, we don’t have a clear town sanctioned hammer. A scum hammer would be easily visible as a quick vote after L-1. The self hammer of WIR gives us an interesting situation. Backtracking from the self hammer we have Haylen.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post. It’s easy for her to say she didn’t except WIR to self hammer, but if she were uncomfortable lynching people day one, why would she put WIR at L-1? The day would have lasted longer if Haylen had not voted WIR whether or not the self hammer happened.

@Haylen: I know you are just as suspicious of nikit’s lurking as anyone else. Tell us was there anything more you could have gained from having the day last longer than it did?

[hurristat]

AwesomePoe: fair enough. And to be honest, the reason I was inactive was due to the fact that I forgot I was playing this game (*is shot by GLaDOS*))

I'll be posting my analysis of the posts that I've missed sometime within the next few hours.

[Ghostlin]

Okay Ghostlin wrote:

My only complaint about Stefan is he's ratcheted it back from Day 2 to Day 1 when we need people to make cases and hit folks hard.

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean whit this, can you explain it?

You're not as aggressive as you were on Day 1. We

need

aggressive Day 2. I'm not saying abandon your play style and be a dick, but there's not much to be gained to not pushing as hard as you can. Don't post less necessarily because people aren't posting: it encourages people to go in fits of 'oh, I'll post when he posts.' And we get nowhere.

I hope that clarifies the situation.

@Ghostlin: You’ve asked this question persistently and to answer: my vote will speak for itself. My day one method of scum hunting only got rid of a player who didn’t want to play. Call this fence sitting but, nikit is a definite lurker and I don’t see any point of putting my vote on him if nothing is to be gained from it. Later in the day if it’s a deadline situation I’ll come back to it. Right now I am looking everybody.

I don't like this. I'll be real honest with you here. Your vote hasn't done a lot of talking except to parrot a lot of the thoughts town has here; your nikitakit vote could mean something if you gave it meaning. Instead, I'm getting wishy washy from you in a situation where we still have a great chance of winning despite one of the towns acting like a VI Day 1. With an admission of no backup plan and the fact that you'll only unveil your arguments and cases when you're ready to vote; it sounds like you're hedging your bets for any wagon that might come along.

You whip out this analysis against StefanB so he could give you his reasons for voting: if you're going to make a pseudo-case for him, why didn't you vote to back it up?

That's scummy. We don't need people to hop wagons, we need people to contribute to the analysis needed to win the game.

Active Lurker< Scummy acting player. No one has to follow me, but I propose we lynch the probable agnostic scum this game and then see the following: if nikita picks up his prod, to see what he has to say for himself, if he continues with his active lurking play, he'll make an excellent Day 3 lynch candidate. If not, then we can talk to his replacement.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP; Forgot this:

unvote

;

Vote: Awesome Poe

[AwesomePoe]

I don’t have the need to spill out my game plan for the next few days, because how am I suppose to know if I’m going to be here. Everybody dies in this game, and nobody knows what the next day will bring. I’m being much more active and waiting my time this day, because the day one rush on WIR didn’t get town closer to winning.

I don’t understand. Because I’m not going after nikit, I’m scummy. You did the exact seem thing day one. You voted for WIR then unvoted him because that put him at L-1. And you also wanted to look at some other people day one. What’s the matter? Even if WIR lynched himself,(and I had nothing to do with that) It’s only day two. The mafia weren’t able to kill night and only one town has been mislynched. The situation is not as dire as you make it out to me.

Roll back the clock, for just a bit. Imagine we just had an extremely long RSV and somebody left the game for some real life reason. Which we can say kind-of happened. I’m concerned that maybe you looking too far ahead. Wait until L-2, before you start talking about day three lynchings. With that kind of talk you could be leading the town towards an end game you don’t want. I recognize you have the experience, but this is a game where the wild probability just happens.

You’re behaving much differently day two. Is there a reason for that? Day one you are hands off and let things be as they be. Day two you’re setting the lynch schedule.

[StefanB]

Sorry AwesomePoe I tryed to let you talk and make your own grave, but enough is enough:

AwesomePoe wrote:

See how StepahB quickly read out his reasons? But this only came from repeated prodding. His voting pattern doesn't look very good, but his reasons look much better.

Nice StefanB: Hallo my name is Stefan, we are playing a game of Mafia together. Thats a game of reading and analysing what other people do. Any new information one this for you?

Not so nice: Very happy where my vote is. Sorry AwesomePoe that above is so very wrong that it hurts. You never proded me about my reason. You never cared for them. (if I follow your posts) They were unimportant for you, because I unvoted and voted so often.
I had to read out my reasons? Well that wasn't so important to me to read them out, because I gave them when I voted. So giving information that I think every player already has with no one asks for, yepp that will take some time, normaly I repeat it only to prove a point.

Reading at Poe complete: Doesn't seem to understand whats going on in this game, some times I think he has just skimmed it. Doesn't really care to scumhunt, didn't care for readings about most of the players on day 1. Your whole playstile screams scum. You are scum.

[StefanB]

Ghostlin: I'm not a big fan of quicklynches, even if AwesomePoe is a good target, if there is one.
I am not so aggresive because I was at the first time of the game, more in the defence and I let my antagonist in the discusion build his own case. I did that because it seemed for me that Poe was going to do that even I only made little pushes and defened myself. But even that was "nasty". Look were my vote is at the moment.
Beeing a dick, sorry I hope I wasn't that to anyone on day 1. Yust no!
Everythink is do to circumstances, the only ones I will not go after at the moment are nikitakit or Chkflip, because they are not here. If the responed to the prod, I will ask them some questions. Haylen and Deer I am waiting on posts yes. (both have a good trackracord of answering questions in this game) For obvious reasons I'm at the moment a little preocupied with AwesomePoe at the moment. Thats not to unnormal for me if you read my game yesterday.

[Haylen]

Sorry for my absense, had an awful day involving a serious asthma attack (which we didn't know I have), several doctors visits and getting used to using inhalers. Trust me, I would have much rather had been posting here. Will do so properly tomorrow.

[hurristat]

@SB: Your vote pattern is unstable because it varies alot throughout the day. It matters not what reasons you have. This was an analysis of voting patterns which are objective. Your vote has been devalued by flip flopping on many people.

Eh, it's day one. Vote flopping is not necessarily a bad thing, it gauges reactions on everyone and it allows everyone to see everyone's styles of play. But past Day 1, it starts to be suspicious.

Ultimately, I'm not quite sure to make of this feud between StefanB and AwesomePoe -- chances are that one of them is mafia and is trying to engage the other.... It's become less of an argument and more of a fight.

And Haylen, sorry about the news.

[Deer]

Anyways, hurristat is climbing up that scumlist. He's not stepping on toes or making any bold claims, and it just feels right.

unvote, vote: hurristat

[StefanB]

Okay, I'm trying to make the argument between myself and AwesomePoe (and may use points from other players) (only main argument) more clear:
For that I use abbritions.
A means: StefanB votes a lot on day 1.
B means: That's scummy.
C means: I have made my vote count less through my actions day one.
D means: I have reasons for my vote.
F: Is my fealing that AP knows not what happens in the game.
G: The point about me being likly to hammer.
H is the question: Is AP scum?

Beginn of the day: I vote AP.
AP post 1: Stats a and B and denies D. (only hints at c)
SB Post 1: Admites A, but denies B and points out D whitch should be knowledge awaible to all players.
AP Post 2: Stats that D is unimportant, staats C. Does rewoke a, but makes no comment on B.
SB Post 2: Ask if C is only because I'm voting for AP in the moment. Does once again admite A.
AP Post 3: Brings the point G. Brings again out A and means that I try to erease a.
Ghostlin 1: Points out that D is public knowledge.
SB Post 3: Restead D to point out that there is no evidence for c. I denie that I try to erease a. points out counterevidence to g.
AP Post 4: He points out that he tryed to prodd me to give d. He treats d like new information.
SB Post 4: Denies that AP Post 4 is what happens and that thats a lye. Again has a feeling of F. Answers H with yes.

That's what happened. Make your own opinion about it.

Hurristat: The feeling that on of us is scum, is somethink that I think is right. Hint: It's not me. Look at who started it. (I would not call my vote the start), who is making more sense, see what you can make of it.
The timing of your posting is somethink that I don't like. It was after I did start to really attack AP, (Hey I waited 3 posts whit it) why now and not earlier, when it wasn't as evident, that that was going to become less good for AP? I had you slighly Protown on day 1, Day 2 doesn't look good.

[nikitakit]

So busy that I can't even respond to a prod... looks like I'm going to have to be replaced.

[Haylen]

I did find WhenInRome suspicious, however, I would have liked to have gained more talk and information prior to him having hammered himself.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post.

I have to ask you, when you looked at this, did you check the amount of time between what I said between saying I'm not comfortable lynching someone and then putting WIR at L-1? That was 4 days. In those 4 days, WIR had opportunistically jumped on me and started attacking me, and strawmanning, things that would result in a vote from me.