Mini 1117 - Manhattan Special - [GAME OVER]

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Crazy exactly what are you trying to saw with the "4 serious words"? Someone's actually trying to take Grey's post seriously? I don't even understand Crazy's points on IS, though.

Awfully opportunistic to take something like that and hop straight onto a wagon. IS I do think much argument over Gray's initial post leads back to a whole mess of WIFOM. I also think it's interesting that you pointed that out while also being on board with the wagon. IGMOY Stranger. Especially since last game you were all pro-anything-crazy and this game you seem more apprehensive about it. In 2a you state you hate RVS, and what Gray has done has pulled us straight out of RVS on the first post of the game. So why do you think what Gray did was dumb, and worthy of a vote, other than claiming scum? It ended RVS so essentially your interests were aligned in this area.

p-edit: Shadow, why are you calling Crazy out when there are clear flaws in IS' post, which Crazy is actually pointing out?

Also, EMPKing, get back here and explain more other than "Gray claimed scum and redacted". That vote seems awfully opportunistic this early and I don't like how the wagon shot up in numbers so quickly.

VOTE: ShadowWolf

p-edit, p-edit: EMP don't tell people who they can and cannot vote for, that's scummy and it looks like you're trying to control the votes. Personally I'm finding your play just as suspect as Shadow's right now.

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EBWOP: Re-read SW and find his point to be different from what I thought, so I'm going to
UNVOTE: Shadow
VOTE: EMPKing

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Crazy for the record, the entirety of the second paragraph of my first post was aimed at IS and not you. Sorry for the confusion there, and that kind of addresses your above 4th point about what might be interesting.

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EMP, here's the quote where you try to bully people's voting:

"Everyone who votes after this post for a player who is not SW or Grey needs to provide a reason for doing so."

While that's not telling people not to vote outside of the box, that's still a form of asserting you're an alpha in the group because you're making people justify whatever action they take. While I agree there should be justifications on votes, this applys to everyone, voting for anyone, regardless of whom is being voted for or whom is doing the voting.

Also, unrelated: Crazy you and I find IS's post "curious" for two very different reasons. Additionally, "curious" does not equal "scummy" in my book, without hearing out his explanations.

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I have never seen anyone do something as ridiculous as Grey is doing. Im going to jump on this bandwagon for three reasons:

1) I have never seen a bandwagon materialize from the first post of a game. (In this case, two in a row)
2) I hate waiting around for three pages for a good discussion to materialize from all the RVS garbage. I hate RVS.
2a) This is a good starting discussion as anything.
3) What Grey is doing is just dumb.

Vote GreyICE

I wasn't misrepping you. You said you hated RVS and then voted for the guy who shotputted us out of RVS with his first post of the game by claiming scum. I was pointing about the apparent contradiction in that move. That's all, and that's why my vote's not on you.

Not sure how I feel about MS's vote on EMP. Not a whole lot of reasoning there other than "oh look, wagon that's not being questioned intensely, yet." In fact I think that's the first honest scum post I've seen all game:

UNVOTE: EMPKing

VOTE: Midnight's Sorrow

Also, Crazy you could just as easily be chainsawing for EMP right now. If anything I've remained skeptical of IS's play thus far, and asking you to clarify your point of "curious", which is (purposely?) a vague definition/word is not a scum tell.

It's like saying someone did something "interesting". Interesting in what way? Curious in what way? It all begs the same question, because calling something "curious" now doesn't help us determine your alignment later.

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Crazy, your chainsaw occured when I vote for EMP and then you suddenly post a wall of text on p1 explaining why I'm mafia. Also, fuck your husband/wife daddy/son thing. It's stupid and obnoxious.

IS, I acknowledge that you helped move us out of RVS but our original poster was indeed, as you acknowledge, the catalyst and deserves some of the credit. All I needed was that explanation.

Still comfortable with that MS vote since he's now avoiding the game, and I agree with EMP that Grey's retreat into the shadows of this game isn't a good sign for him.

[Substrike22]

I will write my two main points on Substrike for him to answer in a less funny way.
Question 1

a) He dedicates 10 lines to criticize Internet Stranger and Empking for their votes on Grey. He even finds suspicious some of these attacks.
b) He finds scummy and votes for the only player "defending" Grey.

How are a) and b) compatible in your scumhunting?

Question 2

a) He says that he does not understand my issues with IS
b) Critizicing and voting for Shadow he says that there are clear flaws in IS that I am pointing out
c) Later he says we are point out to different flaws

How are b) and c) compatible with a) ?

Q1) I voted for EMPKing about 15 seconds later. Check the post times if you don't believe me. I realized that I found EMP scummier than Shadow at the time and changed my vote accordingly.

Q2) We had two different arguments on IS, I didn't understand yours. I asked you to clarify. That's all. For point "b", see my above answer.

UNVOTE: MS

Lurker can wait.

VOTE: EMPKing

Post 98 he hops on the popular wagon without giving a reason. I'm just getting scum vibes. Most of his arguments on p4 is regarding WIFOM stuff, not really much to do with the game. And El Simo was right, that was WIFOM. EMP is trying to push the wagon anywhere but himself, for any reason.

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Crazy I honestly just gave up on answering your questions, because they are living up to your forum name. The second question was answered, I apologize if it was not to your expectations. I'll try this one more time and then I'm done with it. I noticed you were pointing out inconsistencies, my problem with your case was that you called something "curious" which doesn't really jive with "that's scum" or "that's town". Therefore, while I agreed with the premise of what you were attempting to do, and noticed inconsistencies, I disagreed with the details. That's what I'm saying. Your aggregate argument was correct, the micro argument was where we disagreed.

Secondly, I find the second part of the above post from shadow "curious" in a scummy way.

Thirdly, let's not, in our evaluations of people, give the scum shopping list of pro-town players, although at this point I don't see much of a consensus on that topic anyways.

Fourthly, EMP's play on p.6 continues to press me as scum. People who revert to calling lurkers scum this early in the game are usually scum who are attempting to pin suspicion on the people who aren't here to defend themselves. It happens in almost every game I've played. Someone calls one of the lurkers scum and throws a vote their way, usually putting them into a position where they cannot defend themselves without looking scummy. While I agree that lurking is, eventually, a scum tell, I believe that early in the game it is a null tell. I believe that the true scum tell here are the people that are focusing their attention on the passive lurkers as opposed to the active players. Don't have time to list them off right now but I'll be back later with a list of them. Guarantee at least one scum is on the list.

p-edit: ninja'd by IS and TheLonging but not editing anything as a result, got to go.

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A) Right, because the scum make an official announcement whenever they are about to do something suspicious. The scum call the press, throw a parade and bring the circus along with them to make an announcement for everyone to see that they are filthy scum.

B) All you

'

re doing is calling for the Brilliant Defense. You expect the evidence to be like CSI level. Unless I come in with DNA, fingerprints, video, eyewitnesses and a signed confession, then any and all suspicious are worthless.

C) It does work that way here. You do scummy actions to draw attention to yourself. In your case its all your scummy inactions. How many more excuses can you come up with to actively not participate Shado? Its kinda hard to slink away and try to hide with me constantly shining that bright light of attention your way isnt it? Your defenders (like Crazy) take on the job of distracting everyone away from you, but that doesnt work with me does it?

D) I

'

m pretty certain that I caught me a scum here. Your actions are doing nothing to dissuade me from my opinion. Therefore, Shado is filthy scum.

A) It'd be nice if it worked that way.
B) I never said that. At all. I'm just saying that you're pushing way too hard for someone who's only accusation is one of active lurking.
C) Excuses? Fuck you.

I think you perceive yourself as this amazing super-detective who's caught the worst serial killer in the world, while actually, you're more like Inspector Clouseau from The Pink Panther. You're a bumbling moron.
D) I'm not scum. (inb4 "lol that's not a defense") You're doing your best to paint every single one of my actions in a negative light. You're tunnelling on me, and you don't talk about anyone else, (and I suspect, won't do until I'm lynched or you're dead)

You mad bro?

EMP, you're a funny little Magikarp. You're seizing every opportunity to attack an easy target that you can. You're not formulating a hard case on anyone. You first voted for the guy who came and voted himself on the first post (stupid, but not necessarily scummy), and then you're voting for lurkers. That's scummy.

p-edit: I'm saying that early game wagons -on- lurkers have scum on them. I'm sure there's a very real possibility that at least one of the lurkers in this game is a scum, but there are other things going on here that are just as bad, if not worse, in terms of scuminess. With the kind of move you pulled on your first post, Grey, I'm surprised you're not using more of the aftermath of that post as evidence. If you're not gonna use the aftermath of what you did as scum hunting material, why did you do it to begin with?

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By the way, Grey, I played in the game with CES and Jmurph so I'm well aware of what happened that game. Just because something happens a given # of times doesn't mean it's a reliable tell. There are other games where scum go super-active to avoid being accused of lurking, making proverbial mountains out of other people's molehills. That's what EMP is guilty of right now.

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Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

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Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

1. It was part of the RVS. It was the last post in the RVS.
2. Being technical with words. I could have just as easily replaced "RVS" with "the third post" and it wouldn't change the meaning.

Scummy due to:
3. Its scummy rhetoric because town wouldn't believe it.
4. Not posting in good faith.
5. This is example of fake scumhunting.
6. Cherry picking.

Calling someone on a contradiction is not "fake scumhunting" it's scumhunting. You got caught. It was not part of the RVS because you said it was not a random vote. RVS =

Random Vote

System. If it's not a random vote, it's not RVS.

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MS my vote on you was the fact that you pop in, vote for EMP without explaining it, and then withdraw back into the shadows. Only half that vote is because of your lurkiness, and you're taking both of my statements out of context. I don't like when people vote/pressure people who haven't even posted yet. You had already posted a scummilicious post.

UNVOTE: EmpKing

VOTE: Midnight's Sorry

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EBWOP: VOTE: Midnight's Sorrow

Fucking auto correct.

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C) none of the above. Try again next week though, for better random results of attempting to simplify my answers into options a or b without actually reading my justifications.

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@ Shadow, I don't think town would've necessarily taken that bet given the context of how it was asked. It sets up EMP for one of those "well if you're scum, say 100% and it flips to be true, then you're scum, or maybe you're scum and going to play dumb by providing a random statistic" type arguments. Therefore I find your reason for voting Emp to be self-preservation. Or do you actually want to explain why you think town would've taken that bet, without using WIFOM.

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Same question at GreyICE, too, now that he's joined the WIFOM argument wagon.

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I think the scum teams will flip as follows, for the record:

CQ/Empking/Lurker?

Shadow/GreyICE/Lurker?

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CQ. most closed normal games on here have 3 scum. Ask anyone here, or go look up three or four games on the mini normal list and you'll see. I've never actually played in a mini normal that didn't have three scum.

Secondly, regarding the fence sitting, I'm not choosing a side yet because I'm analyzing relationships, Shadow. You're not really in a position here to make demands of me choosing sides at this point, because now you're starting to act just as scummy as Emp. For that reason, I feel confident in this hammer. Regarding the Sorrow thing I'm debating either switching my vote to Emp or hammer Shadow, based on the discussion I'm currently having with Shadow. That's why the vote didn't move in that post. The "Lurker?" also can apply to him though, if you're looking for consistency.

GreyICE that is indeed some delicious wine in post 333.

Shadow you're not really in a position to demand me to take a side. Your play, if you are town, has been far below optimal, at best. Your last second vote on Emp looks like an unjustified, kind of randomly excused way to attempt a last-minute counter wagon. While this is a null-tell, the manner in which you did it is extremely suspect. In fact, if Emp was not such a scum read to me (entirely independent of your "wifom" point above), I would hammer you for that post outright. I indeed may.

It's self preservation because you're attempting to pull a rabbit out of a hat and then accuse that rabbit of being mafia just because the rabbit didn't want to bet on whether or not you could make it disappear again. Then you're trying to work that into a much bigger deal then it should be. I do think Grey has a point, however, that Emp might've been hedging his bet by saying he wasn't sure. However, I can honestly say that I express my own doubts when I am town and asked to "predict" something. At the end of the day there's really only one way to find out, unless you're scum. Under your logical reasoning, it is just as scummy for someone to predict that someone is town, or someone is scum, because if they're correct, then tomorrow you'll be saying "Oh, look, he got it right, he had information we didn't, lynch him, lynch him!"

And for whomever asked me for my read on El Simo, it's not a scum read so that's all you need to know at this point. Simo is also hard to read at the moment because most of his posts involve his moving. Something is off about him, from my previous game with him, but I'm not calling that a scum-tell

at this time

. Not going to give people shopping lists on whom I think is town.

UNVOTE: MS
VOTE: ShadoWolf

p-edit: Ninja'd by the above 6 posts.

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And Crazy you're really grasping for straws on that 3 scum thing, I want everyone else to note that.

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Shado, not happy that you think that one side or the other is scum - this could be town on town violence (even though it's not because EMPKing is scum, and CQ is town, so bah on your dumb list Substrike). But, that fits with what I've seen of you and other players, so it doesn't worry me.

You misunderstand me. I was quoting what I read from that post, not my scumlists from that post.

This quote was clearly fucked up as I clearly did not call my own list "bah."

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Shado's been playing like a scum, even if he's town. Especially that behavior when the wagon started piling up, with the last minute push on Emp. That's what tipped the scales for me. That strikes me as a scum scrambling to save himself. When I was writing about that it's what convinced me to drop the hammer, plus the fact that he asked how that was related to self-preservation was just a "facepalm" moment for me.

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GreyICE what the fuck is a Volllkan point? lol.

p-edit:

CQ look at the first fucking quote, please. "Shadow. You're not really in a position." No where there do I even say your name. Please look at my paragraphs, and the context of what I'm saying, so you don't keep distorting it. It's getting annoying, and I'm done explaining these "discrepancies" to you, because you're inventing most of them.

Regarding the second thing:
1. I asked him a question in the post. It didn't make sense to hammer him before he could answer it. His answer was scummy. I hammered in the next post. GG.

2. He fits into both scum teams equally so, there you have it. Plus there are a few other candidates for scum other than him. Yourself, for instance. I'm trying to decide if you're intentionally taking my statements out of context or unintentionally.

3. kk. lol.

p-p-edit: ninja'd by all posts between CQ's list and my response.

[Substrike22]

Oh goodie, lets all fucking huggles the Emp. Yeah, people are calling me scum, better pretend there's a shot of me getting night killed, NKs are soooo scary for townies... wait until my darth vader powers kick in muahahahaha

The rhetoric is empty in this one.

You so deserve the rope this game.

Crazy, I trust your opinion,

is this empty rhetoric?

This may be the most horrifying statement I have ever read in my life.

QFT.

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He would also provide ideas for next day.

Ideas for next day: Everyone who insulted me can go fuck themselves with baseball bats.

Baseball bats are hot.

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Anyone see any reason not to lynch IS after that?

If Navy is lying, we lynch Navy tomorrow.

VOTE: Internet Stranger

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Although I do find the flavor there kind of suspect. I mean, why would results come back as "town" or "anti-town" when there clearly isn't a serial killer here?

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Crazy, your buddying with EMP is obvious. Your hypocritical arguments in dealing with him versus dealing with me, and in twisting the words of almost everything I've done, is noted. You're mis-repping me, you've been mis-repping me, and I'm done trying to argue with you about it. You and EMP are our remaining scum.

VOTE: CQ

He tried to bus you and you've responded by "taking the high road." You point out his lack of a case towards you, then you attack me based on my "lack of cases" on people, which I think is bullshit, by the way. Admirable but also scum. You're acting like you know more than the rest of us, you've been acting that way since day 1. Your third point about me going after townies gets into nothing but WIFOM. I went after town because I didn't know if they were town. Your calling that into question makes me believe that you have information that we don't.

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Midnight what the hell are you talking about, honestly? We had a confirmed guilty. I voted that way. That's really the best you can do? You come out of your active lurking to vote for me, on the grounds that I voted for a cop-confirmed guilty? Please, by all means, try again.

CQ is there anyone other than your bff EmpKing that you don't find scummy, honestly? Or are you just content with lynching everyone but your hard won ally? I'm starting to think this might be a CQ/MS and not a CQ/EMP. I think CQ is all like "oh hey EMP doesn't find me scummy, so I'll just play along and go with the flow, throwing out that he's town so he feels better about his position as well." I've never seen a town player provide lists and lists of players like you do. I've never seen a scum player do it, either, but I've seen scum do similar lists (if not to the groundbreaking extent CQ is approaching.)

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CQ is there anyone other than your bff EmpKing that you don't find scummy, honestly?

1) As far as I see my summaries, it is ElSimio and You as scummy.
Saporo, Fugitive (and maybe Longing) as somewhat scummy and wishing them to post more in specific directions so I can interpret better their weaknesses.
My bff Emking, My bff Erratus and my bff Sorrow (my update is coming, though not much to say) are not particularly scummy at this point (though the last should participate more, I think).

p.s. If I forgot someone, I will dedicate you some time, promise

2) I think you can read all that from my summaries if you pay a minimum of attention, but if you have extra doubts you can ask.

3) The fact that I analyze all players does not mean all of them are scum. I am not going to say "hey, this guy is town for sure", so do not expect it. My observations are maybe helpful to cross-check with theirs and hopefully converge on scum.

Or are you just content with lynching everyone but your hard won ally?

I am not happy with lynching anybody at this point. We have many days in front. I am happy with wagonning ElSimio and you and making the rest to participate in the things I described in my summaries.

I'm starting to think this might be a CQ/MS and not a CQ/EMP.

Please, make your case on me. Empking and Simio decided to disappear and let you leading the wagon on me. Longing is not participating more, so I think it is your responsibility to write a detailed case on me. Also, I would like you to be specific on the connections between IS and MS, MS and me, and MS with all the rest of dead players, since you consider he is my partner.

I think CQ is all like "oh hey EMP doesn't find me scummy, so I'll just play along and go with the flow, throwing out that he's town so he feels better about his position as well."

Empking voted for me and I only updated my view on him moderately because of some incoherences in this position. I found him mostly fine when he considered me town, when he started a wagon on me without sense, and later. So your observation is quite incorrect.

I've never seen a town player provide lists and lists of players like you do. I've never seen a scum player do it, either, but I've seen scum do similar lists (if not to the groundbreaking extent CQ is approaching.)

Is that a "too pro-town to be town" kind of argument? I am quite interested in your case on me. Please WRITE IT NOW.

Nah, I think I'm good resting on the lists of reads you're providing and circular reasoning you used on me for the last two days. How you don't find MS scummy is fun in and of itself, and really just re-enforces my belief that you're protecting your actively lurking scum buddy.

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Honestly, fuck it, lynch me, but when I flip town, MS and CQ are scum. I'm not answering CQ's lists, I did it all day day 1 and I'm not going to do it now. I don't have the time. CQ's playstyle has been random and an attempt at appearing town. Meanwhile MS continues to actively lurk and post worthless comments like the one above this post.

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role*

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UNVOTE: CrazyQuestions
VOTE: MS

It's staying there til the day is over. I'll go back to CQ a consensus of my town reads would prefer that. Not gonna share who those are.

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Honestly it makes me happy that my top three scum candidates are voting for me right now. It really does. And CQ I'm done answering your questions, I posted my thoughts on you several times now. Read them if you want a case. If you don't consider that a case, I don't really care.

Fugitive, how about that MS wagon? I'd give you a cookie in exchange, but I don't have one.

Also if anyone other than CQ or MS scum have a question for me I'd be happy to answer it, for the record.

MS's active lurking is the scummiest thing in the game so far. Iso his posts and tell me how he's town, please. 8 posts. None of which have content. Scum.

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Hi guys. I've got a wall written, but it's probably not condusive to helping.

My scumspects are: Midnights Sorrow (lurker, and the complete lack of reading the thread which contributed to his vote of ConfidAnon), saporovirus (lurker lurks lurkily), substrike (vote on empking on Day 1 for a stretch of a wikitell, post 183, and his AtE #518. Also, let's not forget his hammer of now-town on D1. Ooh, and his refusal to share his town reads. Ooh, and his post #530.)

I thought CQ was scum until recently, so I'm still keeping my eye on him. Not really seeing the Fugitive-scum case, apart from the face ConfidAnon was completely fail, but that's pretty much his meta. I could be convinced with Erratus, I think.

But yeah, substrike should be the lynch.

vote: Substrike

L-1. Claim plz. Noone hammer.

Erratus: I can't justify my slot's actions, since I don't know why he only parked his vote on Shado. I'm not scum though.

You're an idiot if you're reading my post 530 as scummy and not pure frustration. Go re-read this forum, if for nothing else than paying attention to the conversation between CQ and I. Explain to me how you wouldn't get frustrated after that many days of circular arguments.

So, onto your arguments that are -actually relevant-:

In regards to the stretch of a "wikitell". Lynch all liars is not a scum-tell, it's a policy lynch. There's a difference. If I had my vote on EMP before that it was for other reasons. I believe I outlined those reasons sufficiently, given my lack of information on D1, I went for the suspect that made the most suspense at the time. EMP and CQ were both trying to make way too big of a deal out of GreyICE's initial post. Their desperation to make a mountain out of a molehill, especially after Grey flipped town, is scummy.

What exactly is an AtE? I've been on here about eight months now and haven't heard that one before. As soon as I understand it, I will address it.

Sharing a "town list" is stupid. It gives the scum a shopping list on who to target. If you think that this is something that I'm fabricating, feel free to read almost any of the games I've played in the past 3-4 months where this issue has come up. I believe people listing off their town reads is a poor town strategy. Feel free to disagree, but it is a null tell for me. I make the same argument on both sides of the coin, if nothing else than to maintain consistency.

My claim is Vanilla Townie.

My scum suspects are MS and one of CQ or EMP, probably CQ. Calling the CQ and MS team now. Unless one of Fugitive or Erratus are scum, but I'm not seeing that. In which case CQ is a really bad tunneling townie. MS is guaranteed 100% scum in my mind, if you lynch no one else, please lynch him. This is how he played in a game in which he was scum, Newbie 984. It's not the strongest precedence, since it was a newbie game, but it's what I've got. He sat and lurked, occasionally throwing out bits of fluff here and there.

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So it is you and CQ, then? Also the irony in you accusing me of lurking is incredible. Can no one else see what's going on with MS? Really? ISO HIM. PLEASE. IF YOU ARE TOWN YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF.

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Well if you're calling me silent I've been anything but. So that further illustrates the hypocrisy. Nice of you to join us though just in time for what you perceive as a potential mislynch.

[Substrike22]

I have been commenting on whom I think scum are, I haven't been discussing my town reads, which is what you were saying was scummy.

Also that last post where I'm ragequitting CQ's questions is an AtE, yes. That's about all the AtE i've done.

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Saporo's lurking is worse than MS's. MS posts minimal content regarding his suspects, but Saporo is a great big sack full of fence sitting and promises to post later.

Yeah but it's the lack of content in the posts that makes it suspicious in the first place.

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Based on the above post I am 100% convinced that we have a MS/CQ team.

CQ once again you've managed to oversimplify my argument in an attempt to paint me as scum. It's just annoying. MS is an active lurking scum, which is different than a scum. He did not "risk attracting attention". He's done nothing other than come in, make a snyde post here or there, or join in on the biggest wagon. He's attempting, much like you, to make it look like he's contributing more than he actually is. The only person buying it, is you, because you're trying (very badly) to protect him.

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Based on the above post I am 100% convinced that we have a MS/CQ team.

CQ once again you've managed to

oversimplify

my argument in an attempt to paint me as scum. It's just annoying. MS is an active lurking scum, which is different than a scum.

He did not "risk attracting attention"

. He's done nothing other than come in, make a snyde post here or there, or

join in on the biggest wagon

. He's attempting,

much like you, to make it look like he's contributing more than he actually is.

The only person buying it, is you, because

you're trying (very badly) to protect him.

Faking a town-tunnelling this way is just laughable.

1) I have posted

EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT

you had against MS

with your own words

. Hardly I could oversimplify you.
2) He confronted IS and ElSimio just before you voted for him. You can discuss his level of participation, but he confronted the alpha shouters in these very rare situations he posted. And hey, one of them flipped mafia.
3) His vote for Empking was THE SECOND. His vote for you day 1 was THE FIRST. His vote for ConfidAnon was THE FIRST. His vote for you day 3 has been THE FIRST. Sorry, you fail 4 times. 4 votes, none of them was a WAGON properly.
4) He is not attempting to look like he is contributing. He considered himself a lurker. He accepted it. He attacked you for voting him as a lurker.
Obviously, I do not attempt to look like I am contributing. I am contributing.
5) I am not trying to protect him. I am attacking you.

should i assume that Empking is no longer my bff? If you want to make a case on him, maybe you succeed more.

Your entire game against me has been "laughable". You're taking all of my posts out of context when you quote them, and then spinning them your way. Honestly, lynch me. Please. That way, tomorrow, they can get you and MS and we can put this whole thing to rest. If the town isn't going to lynch you, or MS, please, I want them to lynch me, so they realize how bad MS has been playing. You two are by far and away the scummiest players this game, or you're just bad at being a town player and need to learn how to logically interpret my arguments without putting your own spin on them. You're looking worse than FOX news.

[Substrike22]

Saporo's lurking is worse than MS's. MS posts minimal content regarding his suspects, but Saporo is a great big sack full of fence sitting and promises to post later.

Yeah but it's the lack of content in the posts that makes it suspicious in the first place.

Yes it is! Here is my analysis on the content on each of MS's and saporo's posts, with posts I deem non-content in bold:

MS:
0: Random votes Emp
1: Votes you for a contradiction

2: Asks IS for a philosophy lesson and says Simo is always wrong

3: more Simo bashing

4: Votes Confid/Fugitive
5: Calls CQ town and votes you
6: Explains why he thinks you bussed IS
7: Says he thinks your AtE is scummy
8: Calls you scummy for not answering CQ's questions
9: Clarifies that he did not say "lurking"
10: Asks where he perceived you as a mislynch

Saporo:

0: Says she's catching up

1: Player by player analysis

2: EBWOP to 1

3: Jokes regarding Grey's accusation that she skimmed the thread

4: Says "What" to Fugitive

5: Answers my question and asks TL about his CQ vote
6: Clarifies her question about TL

7: VLA

8: Votes me and calls CQ and sub town

See? MS despite his low content is posting in a reasonably protown manner (trying to get suspects lynched, etc.), whereas saporo is just posting worthless shit. In fact after considering this I actually find saporo to be even scummier than Fugitive.

In the realms of internal emotions, how can I check this feeling?

So obviously, I am observing the difference between your previous episode with IS (flipped mafia) and your current episode, in which you hopped before receiving an answer. How scummy is this? Im not attacking you, but I added this observation and when reading back the IS episode, I note that just after he answered you, you voted together for shadow, who flipped town. It is my only source of scum feelings from your side, so I make it explicit for other people to know. I understand there is not a precise answer to my question, however...

Fair enough.

But since you dont consider him scummy, I guess you consider his answers BEFORE getting tired of my case as partially explaining my strikes as town and not as scum. Hence, i want to hear your opinion. A line for each of the 9 strikes will be enouh, thanks.

Okay.

Strike 1 (suspecting IS but going after Shado and Emp instead) and 2 (going after Emp for his placement on the Shado wagon but not IS or you):

Your third point about me going after townies gets into nothing but WIFOM. I went after town because I didn't know if they were town. Your calling that into question makes me believe that you have information that we don't.

I think the second sentence quoted here is a fair point. Not that it justifies going after townies of course, but I don't think Sub's attacks mentioned in the strikes were unjust to begin with, which is why I think his point applies here.

Strike 3 (saying he didn't understand your criticism of IS):

I noticed you were pointing out inconsistencies, my problem with your case was that you called something "curious" which doesn't really jive with "that's scum" or "that's town". Therefore, while I agreed with the premise of what you were attempting to do, and noticed inconsistencies, I disagreed with the details. That's what I'm saying. Your aggregate argument was correct, the micro argument was where we disagreed.

Even though "curious" in the context of Mafia usually just means "requires explanation" or similar, I know that from experience and I also know that the word does often confuse people who don't have that experience.

Strike 4 (making an easy vote on MS for lurking), 5 (calling out Emp for lurker voting, but also voting MS for lurking):

MS my vote on you was the fact that you pop in, vote for EMP without explaining it, and then withdraw back into the shadows. Only half that vote is because of your lurkiness, and you're taking both of my statements out of context. I don't like when people vote/pressure people who haven't even posted yet. You had already posted a scummilicious post.

I also should point out that I have never once seen a player who attacks lurkers as scum but not as town. It depends much more on the player than on the player's alignment.

Strikes 6 (OMGUSing MS), 7 (lining up lynches), and 8 (justifying a possible town lynch) I do not see an answer from him. I don't think any of these things are scum tells though.

Strike 9 (Bussing IS, but casting doubt on NC's claim):

Midnight what the hell are you talking about, honestly? We had a confirmed guilty. I voted that way.

To me it doesn't look like he was trying to get the town to doubt NC's claim. I think what's happening here is he considered the possibility of both NC-scum and IS-scum, and chose IS-scum.

Wrong. Trying to being fair on your comparison, Sub started in post 44, or ISO 3 (before, he was mostly commenting my view of IS).

I'm looking at the entire conversation, not just the questioning part. The post of Fugitive (or his alt to be exact) I named was 440, as that starts the conversation between me and him, even though at that point it was just an unexplained vote. Similarly, I looked at where Sub/CQ started and chose 23 even though at that point he was commenting on your view of IS.

In post 169, or ISO 7, he said:

Crazy I honestly just

gave up on answering

your questions, because they are living up to your forum name. The second question was answered, I apologize if it was not to your expectations. I'll try this one more time and then

I'm done with it.

From ISO 3 to ISO 7 that is what you call

four posts apiece

.

That's not the same thing. Sub was getting tired of the specific line of questioning you were throwing at him at the time, as opposed to talking to you in general.

Then I want to know all your reads before this episode. I have heard you enough about this one. There is a guy at L-1 and you dedicate your time to someone people is not thinking to vote?

Before the me/Fugitive episode my only scum read was TL for his vote park. Fugitive, MS and Saporo I felt needed to post more but given that D1 was fairly short and D2 was a speedlynch it wasn't enough for me to call any of them lurkers.

But I would now rather lynch saporo.

UNVOTE: Fugitive
VOTE: saporovirus

Not only for lurking, but when she does post it's meaningless. See my analysis at the top of this post. Look at her player by player analysis at 151, it is fence-sitting at its fence-sittingest. And that's the closest thing to analysis she has done the entire game.

Honestly I'd buy this if I weren't so convinced about MS and CQ at this point.

[Substrike22]

My computers graphics card is fried, so I can only post from school.

VOTE: midnights sorrow

Same reasons as yesterday. Will make a better post reviewing todays discussion on Monday when I'm not on borrowed time on a friends laptop.

[Substrike22]

Why are we lynching someone in Mylo?

[Substrike22]

Because the syntax ie annoying to type into my phone.

Now that I'm home,

VOTE: no lynch

[Substrike22]

We should massclaim today. Popcorn starting with saporo.

I agree, on both.

[Substrike22]

EmpKing, I'm ok with no lynch without the mass claim, if we're lynching Saporo we might as well mass claim. I really, really, really want to no lynch tonight, since there's ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in lynching someone today with 6 players.

[Substrike22]

How is that not true? Today we have a 17-18% chance of hitting scum, tomorrow it's 20%? Unless you're assuming there's 3 scum. In which case, btw, we would've already lost as of today. Therefore, the correct move is to wait until tomorrow.

[Substrike22]

VOTE: No lynch

Same reason as yesterday.

[Substrike22]

VOTE: No lynch

Same reason as yesterday.

Who do you expect to be nightkilled?

I feel like saying this would defeat the purpose, but I would honestly say that as long as it's not player 1, and it's either player 2 or 3, I'll feel more comfortable with my vote tomorrow.

[Substrike22]

I also claim VT.

The case against MS:
Lurkiness all the way through D1 and D2
You know, posts 87 and 97 look a lot like a Freudian slip now that I re-read this game, especially since I already think MS is scum to begin with.
Post 497 is a horrible attempt at a case, and marks where MS actually becomes slightly interested in the game.
Goes back to posting worthless content through days three and four, occasionally coming on to post an eye-rolling smiley in my direction.

The case on Erratus:
Erratus seemed way to intent on lynching IS on day one though. Almost intent enough to make me think he had insider information.
The battle against Fugitive is really, really hard to read.
Saporo's post 507 looks like an attempt at bussing you, and then your response in post 531 looks like you're distancing from him. Distancing is the wrong word because you weren't playing super close to him to begin with, but it looks like a town/town/scum kind of list. lends you credibility in the endgame.
You almost appeared to rush that no lynch yesterday but that's the pot calling the kettle black from my perspective.
Lastly I find it very strange that you pop corned Saporo yesterday, after suggesting the claim, then Saporo pop corned you right back.

In Summary: Your interactions with Saporo are more scummy than Midnight's, but my experience in mafia tells me that the person not contributing anything is more often the scum. I honestly have no fucking idea. At the end of the day I feel like I can live with myself if I'm wrong about EA, but I can't if I'm wrong about MS. Then again I feel like every time I go with my gut in this situation I fuck up. This entire game I've been wanting to vote Midnight's Sorrow, and I've made that clear, and I haven't mentioned Erratus once. Which makes me think that if MS were scum he would've killed me, and if EA were scum he would've left me alive.

I've clearly made the classic blunder of starting a land war in Asia. Are either of you Sicilian? -_-

[Substrike22]

In for prod, was and am waiting on a post from MS'S slot.

[Substrike22]

VOTE: No lynch

Same reason as yesterday.

Who do you expect to be nightkilled?

I feel like saying this would defeat the purpose, but I would honestly say that as long as it's not player 1, and it's either player 2 or 3, I'll feel more comfortable with my vote tomorrow.

Who were players 1, 2, and 3 referring to?

I was referring to you, as player one. Players two or three were EMPKing and MS. They were my two scum candidates. On a re-read and based on my first post of the day I'm also weighing you as potential scum.

[Substrike22]

He'd probably attack him, but IS is a crazy motherfucker so it's hard to tell. But I'm going with attack.

[Substrike22]

Makes my decision easy.

VOTE: EA

[Substrike22]

Now I'm just amused cause Fugitive was right and I thought for sure in that exchange that if there was a scum there, it was Fugitive. I 100% thought MS was the scum between EA and MS until EA made the first post on this day without the vote, then I went back and reread.

Klazam:

EA used that vote count analysis to set me up. He opens the day with a post saying he'll get around to it, but he already had. Couple that with the fact that all I did on D3 was scream at people that MS (your slot) was active lurking scum and I make a great town pick to bring to the final day from EA's perspective. I know that second part is fairly WIFOM but it makes sense. From EA's perspective, he brings me to the final day, he posts that Vote Count analysis hoping that I'll freak out, vote you, and start begging him to vote you despite the evidence against me, and then he comes in and hammers you. That is his game plan for today, 100% guaran-fucking-teed. Because that happened to me in my first ever game of mafia. Not on the site, just my first game ever. I had trusted this one person in the group all the way up to the very end, Heather, and then at the last second, Hope (who was mafia) started yelling that I was the mafia so I freaked out and started trying to convince Hope that Heather must be the mafia. I voted for Heather, and then Hope hammered and the entire group started laughing.

Sapo's attacking EA on D3 was a poor attempt at a busing which was consistent with Sapo's poor play.

[Substrike22]

I have to go to the gym v. soon, so I will post what I think of you all without explaining v. much, for now. Plz ask me to clarify.

Crazyqs:

+2

for having the balls to come up with theories and speculations even if they are a bit farfetched. Sticking your neck out is pro-town.

El Simo: He is upset at crazy q's balls and wants to prove that his are bigger. He also is concerned with dick sizes. In the tide of the big e-peen measuring contest this game is turning out to be, I'd say he's a null right now.

emp: annoying as hell. But if I remember my last game with him correctly this is just emp being emp.

Erratus: Appears to be asking questions but I don't necessarily see him scumhunting, as much as finding easy reasons to vote for certain people (shado for not having much content, internet stranger for ignoring him.)

GreyIce: stop being silly. I logged in on Tuesday and I logged in just now. That's not called "lurking," that's called "having a life." I suspect you might have one of those yourself, since you've also been accused of "avoiding" the thread. Nice try though.

IS: got super defensive and emotional in his early posts. Also I think Erratus has a point in that he ignored his questions whilst gunning for shado.

Midnight's Sorrow: WHOAH LURKERZ IZ SKUMZ. Just kidding. Null.

Shado: apparently has trouble contributing anything of note amongst all the bickering about genitalia. I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like he might be profiting from the acrimonious nature of this game thus far, in that it gives him the chance to comment on stuff without taking any action.

substrike: I get the impression that he is honestly trying to scumhunt.

theLonging: who knows.

OK I AM GOING TO DO MY PHYSICAL FITNESS NOW.

Look he calls everyone what they actually are. Look at what he says for everyone, look at their alignment as they've flipped. Everyone who he listed as null or town has flipped null or town. The one person he called scum flipped scum. He then goes on to call Erratus scummy without actually calling Erratus scummy. He's soft-bussing Erratus and hard bussing IS in the same post.

[Substrike22]

IS attacked substrike while not mentioning EA. (didn't mention sapo, too)

Sapo attacked EA and IS while leaving substrike alone, saying that SS seemed town.

If SS is right about IS more likely to attack scumbuddy, then it would implicate SS. If EA is right, then it would implicate EA... Interesting.

I honestly forgot about IS attacking Substrike.

Looking at it now, I see that he only attacked Sub weakly at the beginning of the day, without a vote or anything, then promptly forgot about him. And then I look at Sub's play at the same time, he... attacked IS weakly at the beginning of the day, without a vote or anything, then promptly forgot about him. Nice distancing.

Now I'm just amused cause Fugitive was right and I thought for sure in that exchange that if there was a scum there, it was Fugitive. I 100% thought MS was the scum between EA and MS until EA made the first post on this day without the vote, then I went back and reread.

Klazam, read this carefully. Sub is saying he thought I was 100% town, until he read this post:

I'm a vanilla townie.

I'll do a vote count analysis in a bit.

And then all of a sudden he was 50/50ish.

Because I claimed VT and promised a VCA.

Bullshit. What happened is Sub wanted to see who he could attack safely, so he put his attack on MS to a screeching halt and then did nothing for as long as he could to scout what I and MS/you would do, all while attacking BOTH of us in the hopes of getting one of us to agree and attack the other.

EA used that vote count analysis to set me up. He opens the day with a post saying he'll get around to it, but he already had.

Bullshit. I did the VCA when I said I did it.

From EA's perspective, he brings me to the final day, he posts that Vote Count analysis hoping that I'll freak out, vote you, and start begging him to vote you despite the evidence against me, and then he comes in and hammers you. That is his game plan for today, 100% guaran-fucking-teed.

How does me voting you fit in with that game plan, chief?

I have to go to the gym v. soon, so I will post what I think of you all without explaining v. much, for now. Plz ask me to clarify.

Crazyqs:

+2

for having the balls to come up with theories and speculations even if they are a bit farfetched. Sticking your neck out is pro-town.

El Simo: He is upset at crazy q's balls and wants to prove that his are bigger. He also is concerned with dick sizes. In the tide of the big e-peen measuring contest this game is turning out to be, I'd say he's a null right now.

emp: annoying as hell. But if I remember my last game with him correctly this is just emp being emp.

Erratus: Appears to be asking questions but I don't necessarily see him scumhunting, as much as finding easy reasons to vote for certain people (shado for not having much content, internet stranger for ignoring him.)

GreyIce: stop being silly. I logged in on Tuesday and I logged in just now. That's not called "lurking," that's called "having a life." I suspect you might have one of those yourself, since you've also been accused of "avoiding" the thread. Nice try though.

IS: got super defensive and emotional in his early posts. Also I think Erratus has a point in that he ignored his questions whilst gunning for shado.

Midnight's Sorrow: WHOAH LURKERZ IZ SKUMZ. Just kidding. Null.

Shado: apparently has trouble contributing anything of note amongst all the bickering about genitalia. I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like he might be profiting from the acrimonious nature of this game thus far, in that it gives him the chance to comment on stuff without taking any action.

substrike: I get the impression that he is honestly trying to scumhunt.

theLonging: who knows.

OK I AM GOING TO DO MY PHYSICAL FITNESS NOW.

Look he calls everyone what they actually are. Look at what he says for everyone, look at their alignment as they've flipped. Everyone who he listed as null or town has flipped null or town. The one person he called scum flipped scum. He then goes on to call Erratus scummy without actually calling Erratus scummy. He's soft-bussing Erratus and hard bussing IS in the same post.

This is silly. First of all, Sub conveniently leaves out that Saporo attacked Shado in this post. Secondly, his argument falls on its ass when you actually take a look at the numbers. Saporo called Longing, Confid (in the EBWOP), MS, and Simo null, she said nothing of worth about Emp or Grey and she literally said nothing at all about Pergol. Of course, that's what Sub meant by "flipped null", right? Of the remaining flips, she attacked IS and Shado and defended CQ. She called two people what they are, and one person what he wasn't. Yet according to Sub, she called

everyone

what they are. He's twisting the evidence to support him.

You voting me is what happened when I started to suspect you after you initial "oh let me go post vote count analysis", then waiting for me to post, then putting the vote count analysis up after I didn't vote MS's slot. I'd call you Chief but since we're getting all personal and touchy about it I'll just call you Indian instead, unless that offends someone in the group, in which case I will call you a private and reference military ranks.

And what are you even talking about with Saporo's post? She calls 3 people scummy in some way: MS (jokingly), EA, and IS. EA and IS are scum, therefore she called it how it is.

[Substrike22]

Also I always re-read on the final day, your post not having a vote in it just re-enforced my doubt on my re-read. If you were town you would've voted with that first post unless you had a question. By coming in and posting, you waited to see if I'd come in and vote MS off the bat, because of my constant pursuit of him on day 3 or 4 or whatever day that was. Instead, since I didn't vote, you posted a wall of worthless vote analysis explaining why my wagons were all over the place. You had two options, pressure me with a panic vote by voting for me and trying to get me to vote for MS, or hope that Klazam came in and hammered me. Claiming VT and a VCA wasn't what set me off, it's the order in which you've done things since then relative to the other two posters left in the game.

If you're really going to argue that me being the only unconfirmed person on a wagon somehow makes me scum, when I had no way of knowing the alignment of the other people on the wagon, that's just stupid and scummilicious. Just because you knew something I didn't, so you could set this up later, it doesn't make me scum when that vote count conveniently works in your favor.

[Substrike22]

Cool we lost, good game bud. Kudos if you were actually scum Klazam.

[Substrike22]

yea was most definitely town and EA was super obvious if you read the Fugitive thing in combination with his last day of play. It's ok though I almost voted MS right off the bat I'm just raging right now, lol. Not your fault. honestly I give you props for replacing into a situation like this, so kudos to you on that one. we had so many inactivity problems this game.

[Substrike22]

No it was definitely solid, as I said I didn't really get tipped off until he carried me into the final day instead of EMP and then with his first post didn't vote. It tipped me off that he was waiting for me to vote for MS like my play all game had indicated I was going to. Which I explained in the above paragraphs. Of course scum would've said the same thing, EA planned it out pretty solidly. As I said thanks for replacing in. I think you might've had more posts than MS, hahah.

[Substrike22]

Honestly I thought my defense of greyICE on page 1 should've been good enough to push me into "town" zone.

[Substrike22]

I even caught that EA was scum at the end. I'm disappointed, I don't know what I could've done differently, honestly.

[Substrike22]

and honestly, can anyone who was town blame me for calling MS scum on Day 3-4 whenever he had like 5 posts total and none of them had content? shit.

[Substrike22]

We should have lynched Saporo day 1.

Said it then, said it now.

Lynching something who is saying ANYTHING over someone saying NOTHING is never a good idea.

I like how you apply I am a thing rather than a person.

Also no where in the original post is there an implication that you were an "it", the "it" was what he said, not you as an "it." So.... yeah.