Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[Bub Bidderskins]

My vote will stay on DarlaBlueEyes. I think that she is the most probable scum, and I have already demonstrated why. However there is another reason to lynch her, and that is the fact that we will gain the most knowledge based on her lynch.

If she turns out to be town, then that seriously implicates both whisky (who has recently disappeared) and bobsnox. If we lynch bob and he's town, then that does not strongly implicate Darla.

Ender has slipped off the radar as of late, and he needs to get back into the game.

@Ender: At this point who do you think is more likely scum: Darla or bobsnox?

[Final Fires]

@ Final Fires
Can you explain how your attacks of bobsnox are not indicative of a chainsaw defense of Darla?

My accusations towards him weren't in defense of Darla. Darla brought up suspicion towards Bob, and I looked into it doing an ISO of my own. I brought up some points (see post 179), concluded that he's suspicious, but not bandwagon worthy quite yet.

Rather than rationally responding to any of the points I brought up, he just responded:

add Final Fires to the grasping at straws group

how the heck does FF know my meta? I've played 2 games here and none with him.

I love the OMGUS votes I'm engendering as well. give scum an easy target and watch how fast they flock to the fresh blood.

my vote is confirmed

As soon as I questioned him he immediately turned around, and instead of defending himself said "OMGUS towards me! Final is grasping at straws for analyzing my play!". This made me very suspicious - everyone has been questioned to some extent, but no one thus far has panicked for having suspicion shed on them. At this point I thought it was time to put some pressure on, so I changed my vote to him. Again I pointed out his suspicious plays on 185, and at the bottom I noted that if he provided a good defense this time, I would be glad to unvote him. Rather than rationally defending himself he just said:

His posting style seems to take a much more aggressive tone once Darla pointed suspicion towards striker and whiskey (potential chainsaw defense? It wasn't that dramatic, but there definitely was a slight change in the attitude of his posts).

^ Grasping at straws

[...]

It's funny how hard some of you are trying to find legitimate reasons to wagon on me. Trying to cover all your bases to avoid the scenario I just mentioned

I may unvote depending on how bob defends himself.

You need a bullet tonight after we lynch Darla. That's scummy. Maybe you always give yourself a way out if the ship sinks, but that's scummy.

This response just screams scum to me. I made it clear I wanted him to defend instead of just brushing it off and then throwing empty accusations back at me, but so far he has not been able to do that. To me, that's very scummy and a significant reason why my vote on him is still standing. Take into account how conflicting some of his posts are (see post 196), and I feel like so far the scummiest person is Bob.

[DLG]

@ Final Fires
My question to you was meant to highlight what I consider a bad argument for considering someone scummy. You posed a potential connection between bobsnox and MoreWhisky and rekirtS as part of the evidence against bobsnox. Your current suspicions of bobsnox can be described in the same fashion.

I think that making those connections before a flip is pointless. Any interaction between two players at this point could be scum interaction. You

could

be bussing bobsnox right now. You

could

be chainsaw defending DarlaBlueEyes. You

could

be ignoring brokenscraps because you are partners. None of those things are evidence against you at this time.

Once we have a lynch and flip and subsequent night actions to work with, then connections can be analyzed.

Aside from this one point, I do not think your points against bobsnox are faulty. I simply don't agree that bobsnox is the highest probability scum.

[bobsnox]

"Don't lynch me! You'll be sorry!" Newb? Ok I can buy that. But someone to keep an eye on for sure.

Darla please try to lynch me. I will be happy when I flip town and you are on the top of the to-be-lynched list for tomorrow.

By your own argument you're someone to keep an eye on.

What are you even trying to say? I didn't say "Don't lynch me you'll be sorry!"... so you lost me big time

I may unvote depending on how bob defends himself.

You need a bullet tonight after we lynch Darla. That's scummy. Maybe you always give yourself a way out if the ship sinks, but that's scummy.

1. This is definately grasping at straws, which you label as something scummy.

No, you're definitely playing it safe by setting up a possible egress in case the ship sinks. That's not hard to see. If it's your normal behavior, you normally behave like scum.

2. It's also just wrong. I've made three votes (Albert, Ender, and now you), and I was reasonable with my level of commitment to each one according to how strongly I felt about them. Reread my vote against ender and quote anything that "gave me a way out".

By using the phrase "maybe you always" I did not mean to convey a sense that I have analyzed your previous votes and found such a recurring playstyle. I was suggesting that if (IF) that's your normal behavior, then you play scummy.

Besides, barely explaining why you voted for some one is pretty much the same thing you're accusing me of - "always [giving] yourself a way out if the ship sinks". Again, by your own argument, you're scummy.

what the...

Uhhh no

it's not

at all

remotely

It seems like your guilty of the scum behavior your accusing others of, minus worrying about content.

drawing conclusions from incorrect premises makes your argument invalid.

As soon as I questioned him he immediately turned around, and instead of defending himself said "OMGUS towards me! Final is grasping at straws for analyzing my play!".

herrrr that's not what I said. nice try dude

you are grasping at straws. you are making ridiculous leaps in logic. not "for analyzing my play" - you just are.

This made me very suspicious - everyone has been questioned to some extent, but no one thus far has panicked for having suspicion shed on them.

lollll. Me telling Darla to lynch me = panicking? weird

I made it clear I wanted him to defend instead of just brushing it off and then throwing empty accusations back at me, but so far he has not been able to do that.

I want you to lynch me so a vig puts a bullet in your head tonight. your arguments are bad - I have the option of pretending like they're not and trying to "defend" myself or I can call them what they are. bad.

you want me to "rationally respond" - be more rational yourself.

are you and darla scum buddies?

[Empking]

CryMeARiver replaces rekirtS.

[Empking]

Vote Count 9

1. bobsnox (3) - flinter, DarlaBlueEyes, Final Fires
2. DarlaBlueEyes (5) - Bub Bidderskins, CMAR, DLG, MoreWhisky, bobsnox
3. flinter
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins
7. Pomegranate
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver (1) - Nikanor
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
12. Final Fires
13. ender241 (2) - Yosarian2, Jahudo
14. MoreWhisky (1) - Brokenscraps

Not Voting: Pomegranate, ender241,


With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

[flinter]

On page three, Ender seems to be making every post to please other people. He is someone I would like to take a look at later.

And darla knows Ender is quite new, but still FoS's him for the above.

89 by DLG quite clearly expresses what I think about Darla.

I dislike broken's post 93, mostly because there seemed nothing wrong with Jahudo's post. If Darla is scum, broken would be the first I would be looking at next, as he "watches reskirtS, DLG & Jahudo" because they buddy. It seems like a paranoid scum reaction to a succesful town wagon.

The more and more I think about this, the better I feel about this vote. If the lynch is coming down to him and Darla, I would definately prefer him to be lynched.

this seems a little early. I don't think that on page 6 you can already be choosing between two wagons. It's probably not coincidental that ender was voting Final at that moment.

Till now, the general defense Darla has brought up against each vote is to ask for prove and explain why they voted. Many already accompanied a reason with that vote. Darla's scumhunting mostly consist out of asking questions without using the answers she gets. When she does try to deduce something, she ends up with a wishywashy stance (and usually without a vote).

This would be one of the votes which are too easy. Is there in the above analysis any point where I'm going wrong or is Darla quite obvious?

[flinter]

And since Darla isn't in immediate danger of being lynched:

unvote vote Darla

[Yosarian2]

@ Yosarian2
I see a disconnect between your current vote (ender241) and your current shift to what looks like strong suspicion against bobsnox. I realize that we each only have one vote to use. Is your current stance that ender241 is more probable scum than bobsnox?

Oh, I'm still quite suspicious of Ender. Many of my recent posts have been targeted at him.

Right now, my top 3 suspects are Ender, Whiskey, and bobsnox.

At this point in the game, if I see something odd/noteworthy, I'm going to comment and question about it. On day 1, everyone should have multiple suspects and be following up on multiple leads all the time.

For my part, I do not share in the suspicion of bobsnox. Hostility towards his current suspects and attackers is not a scum tell. Bad reasoning in regards to thinking DarlaBlueEyes is more likely scum if he is lynched and flips town is not a scum tell.

Eh. I don't have a problem with his darla vote, specifically, although I wish he'd explain it better. I mostly just don't like the way he's trying to aggressively force others to vote her; it feels more like a scum trying to force a wagon then like a town honestly trying to find scum.

[CryMeARiver]

I shall be reading up later today, glad to replace in!

[DLG]

At this point in the game, if I see something odd/noteworthy, I'm going to comment and question about it. On day 1, everyone should have multiple suspects and be following up on multiple leads all the time.

Absolutely agree with this. Top 3 for me are DarlaBlueEyes, Nikanor, ender241.

I shall be reading up later today, glad to replace in!

Welcome to the game. Look forward to your input.

[bobsnox]

Eh. I don't have a problem with his darla vote, specifically, although I wish he'd explain it better. I mostly just don't like the way he's trying to aggressively force others to vote her; it feels more like a scum trying to force a wagon then like a town honestly trying to find scum.

I found scum.

Let's lynch her.

[MoreWhisky]

Eh. I don't have a problem with his darla vote, specifically, although I wish he'd explain it better. I mostly just don't like the way he's trying to aggressively force others to vote her; it feels more like a scum trying to force a wagon then like a town honestly trying to find scum.

I found scum.

Let's lynch her.

Can you just confirm the 'lets lynch her' part of your post is directed at Darla?

[bobsnox]

Eh. I don't have a problem with his darla vote, specifically, although I wish he'd explain it better. I mostly just don't like the way he's trying to aggressively force others to vote her; it feels more like a scum trying to force a wagon then like a town honestly trying to find scum.

I found scum.

Let's lynch her.

Can you just confirm the 'lets lynch her' part of your post is directed at Darla?

Yeah why?

[ender241]

Sorry for not posting for a while guys.

At the moment i think it's bobsnox.

[ender241]

Unless i have to vote him i won't though, i'd prefer VOTE: Finalfires.

[MoreWhisky]

Im actually starting to believe i got it wrong about ender.

I still think hes a newbie but Darla has used this to there scum advantage. FOS ender for after we lynched Darla.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Unless i have to vote him i won't though, i'd prefer VOTE: Finalfires.

Why are you voting for Final Fires?

[bobsnox]

Unless i have to vote him i won't though, i'd prefer VOTE: Finalfires.

Why are you voting for Final Fires?

seriously what the

[Final Fires]

At the moment i think it's bobsnox.

You think what's bobsnox?

"Don't lynch me! You'll be sorry!" Newb? Ok I can buy that. But someone to keep an eye on for sure.

Darla please try to lynch me. I will be happy when I flip town and you are on the top of the to-be-lynched list for tomorrow.

By your own argument you're someone to keep an eye on.

What are you even trying to say? I didn't say "Don't lynch me you'll be sorry!"... so you lost me big time

True you didn't come out and say "Don't lynch me or you'll be sorry!", but the same thing can be inferred. All I was trying to say is that if you were us, you would be suspicious of you too.

I may unvote depending on how bob defends himself.

You need a bullet tonight after we lynch Darla. That's scummy. Maybe you always give yourself a way out if the ship sinks, but that's scummy.

1. This is definately grasping at straws, which you label as something scummy.

No, you're definitely playing it safe by setting up a possible egress in case the ship sinks. That's not hard to see. If it's your normal behavior, you normally behave like scum.

2. It's also just wrong. I've made three votes (Albert, Ender, and now you), and I was reasonable with my level of commitment to each one according to how strongly I felt about them. Reread my vote against ender and quote anything that "gave me a way out".

By using the phrase "maybe you always" I did not mean to convey a sense that I have analyzed your previous votes and found such a recurring playstyle. I was suggesting that if (IF) that's your normal behavior, then you play scummy.

Then why even suggest it if you admit its baseless? Just to make your "case" against me look less fluff?

Besides, barely explaining why you voted for some one is pretty much the same thing you're accusing me of - "always [giving] yourself a way out if the ship sinks". Again, by your own argument, you're scummy.

what the...

Uhhh no

it's not

at all

remotely

If you do an ISO of your posts, you'll see that every vote you made you could've easily avoided suspicion the next day if they flipped town. That's just as much giving yourself a way out if the ship sinks, albeit in a different way.

@DLG's post 202 - I've agreed with most of what you've had to say so far, and you raise a good point. I still think Bob is scum, but you're right that it will take at least one night's worth of actions to prove this. Bub's post (200) also brings up the best point I think I've heard so far: We learn the most from Darla's death (this was a significant reason why I originally voted for ender - at the time I thought the most could be learned from his death). For that reason alone...

Unvote: Bob

I'll wait to vote darla, so that no one accidently hammers.

[brokenscraps]

@mod: will post as much as possible but will have internet issues over the next few days

For that reason alone...

"Most learnt from lynch" is not a good reason by itself. If you think she is scummy vote her, otherwise don't (1. she could be a town powerrole, 2. you almost always learn more from hitting scum). If you think bob is scum and darla isn't you should be arguing against the still-not-inevitable darla lynch. I'm suspicious that you'd really support a lynch for that reason.

I am not trying to scare Ender out of his vote. He can vote me if he wants, and FOS if me if his wants. That wont have any affect on my read of him. I would/will vote him if he continues to be more and more blatantly scummy outside of his newbie meta, and I was letting him know that while I had been letting it slip in a sense due to our previous game, I was not going to continue to do so if he kept being such a sheep.

You've said something similar a couple of times, what would make ender scum to you? Continuing to play similar to how he has today? Because he presumably will; I don't see if his meta explains his playstyle (as for you it seems to) you'd expect him to change much as the day goes on. So why set yourself up to vote someone for play you've haven't found damning so far?

[CryMeARiver]

No votes will come til I've read the whole thread and this is prior to me receiving my role PM (though I may receive it during the duration of this reread) (Only posting that to let you know that my role is not affecting my reads). Also, I try not to make HUGE posts as I find that people pay attention to their content less the bigger they are truly. Therefore, I may break this reread up

Vote: Flinter wee.

Do you think your vote might be more useful if you confine it to players in the game?

LOL'd now that he is in the game.

Holy crap, Final Fires 27 is just terrible. It's clear Yos will end up confirming or getting replaced. He will not be modkilled. All 3 scum from a wagon do not bandwagon together usually, especially not in RVS. An RVS tiny wagon does not hold any meaning. And don't ever promise that you're not scum
Darla possibly coaching FF? Pom possibly coaching FF?

Wow, WIFOM, softclaim, backtracking, and still terrible methods all in the same freakin post. WHY would you softclaim FF? Your 32 is just as bad as your 27
Jahudo possibly coaching FF but seems more of an IC style type coaching than scumbuddy.

Protown points to DLG (post 37)
Bub has the same thoughts as I do (post 38), though not necessarily in a protown fashion
FF's post 40 explains a lot and resets his status as VI noob, but this is a lot better than most noobs I've come across who don't even try and then play the noob card when called out on it.
WTF @ Bob's 42...kind of suspicious as there is no explanation and FF had just explained his past actions...
Haha, Yos's 44 is exactly what was going thru my head when reading this, though I don't understand your vote, just RVS?
DLG is very protown (48)
ender, with his 49, it's completely wrong, but it doesn't ring as scummy to me, just plain wrong.

So at this point I probably would have voted FF, unvoted FF, and voted Bob...and elected this game for the most content in 2 pages ever lol. No votes til I'm done with the read thru and I have officially gotten my role PM now.

[Jahudo]

MoreWhisky:

@ Whisky

: Can you address some of Darla's points on you?
1) What is your read on the other ender voters? You talked about how Yosarian interprets ender differently, but not how FF or myself interpret it different from you and if you have a problem with our votes too.
2) What about her scumhunting methods looks more like trying to "pin the scum tag" on someone rather than being honestly cautious? I don't see where you point to any specific comment and explain that's not how a townie would investigate.

Please answer this. And you've seen some more of Darla since you last talked about her actions as scummy. Do you still see that? If so, where.

@Mod: Can you prod Nikanor?

[Nikanor]

no, don't do it!

[bobsnox]

FF work on reading comprehension. <---- serious statement

Please lynch me =/= don't lynch me you'll be sorry

etc.

this is annoying