Newbie 1046: Game Over

[hurristat]

Hurristat: The feeling that on of us is scum, is something that I think is right. Hint: It's not me. Look at who started it. (I would not call my vote the start), who is making more sense, see what you can make of it.

Who started it is not necessarily an indication -- maybe AP is a town who thinks you're mafia, and is trying to get you lynched. Maybe he's mafia. I don't know. But I'm not voting for one side or the other.

The timing of your posting is something that I don't like. It was after I did start to really attack AP, (Hey I waited 3 posts whit it) why now and not earlier, when it wasn't as evident, that that was going to become less good for AP? I had you slighly Protown on day 1, Day 2 doesn't look good.

I was busy earlier (school got crazy), so I didn't really have a chance to come on here and post my thoughts. And I'm not just focusing on you -- AP is becoming scummier in my eyes too, but he hasn't responded to me yet.

[hurristat]

Anyways, hurristat is climbing up that scumlist.

I will admit: I can see how you would see me as acting scummy... I've become less reserved in my judgments and that brevity I mentioned earlier is kicking in.

He's not stepping on toes or making any bold claims, and it just feels right.

Often the opposite is often seen as scummy as well -- and you're not really stepping on toes either, you put me at L-4, which really doesn't mean anything at this point. But, even if you're not being perfectly inquisitive, you're not on my scumlist. I believe you're town, and your vote is your vote, but still...

W/r/t to me not voting: I'm not quite sure who to vote for yet. I often don't vote unless one player is acting scummier than the rest, and right now it's a three-way tie. The day is long, and there is much that is yet to come. I'm sure that someone will emerge, and when that happens, I will vote. I will vote in order to try and pressure someone into a response (just like you did here with me), but otherwise I usually abstain from voting until I'm a little bite surer.

[AwesomePoe]

I did find WhenInRome suspicious, however, I would have liked to have gained more talk and information prior to him having hammered himself.

In iso16 she says she would not be comfortable to lynch anyone. Yet she puts WIR at L-1 in next after next post.

I have to ask you, when you looked at this, did you check the amount of time between what I said between saying I'm not comfortable lynching someone and then putting WIR at L-1? That was 4 days. In those 4 days, WIR had opportunistically jumped on me and started attacking me, and strawmanning, things that would result in a vote from me.

That doesn't matter, there was already a train of people in front of you wanting to question WIR. You didn't have to defend yourself. You L-1 vote should've not been a reaction to WIR. That looks more like OMGUS. Since WIR got all the attention during the last day, most of the lines of questionings have ended in his self hammer. I remember you wanting some feedback from nikit, because he brought up the "before I died" comment. He responded, but I don't know if you accepted his answer.

[Haylen]

Yes. you seem to be forgetting that I didn't believe he would self-hammer. It wasn't OMGUS. Just because you were attacked by somebody they vote you, then you have valid reasons for voting that person, it doesn't mean it's OMGUS. Not if the reasons can be validated, which they can be. If I'm not going on about the Nikit thing now, then I've accepted his answer

[StefanB]

Okay Hurristat: You are right, being sure is a good think before you think someone is scum.
But please look at the argument, look what realy happened and think about it okay?

Poe: Can you stop saying that reason for what people say don't matter? That's just wrong on so many levels and it get's on my nerves.
You are not responding to your case, interesting.

Deer: Being independent is cool, but you are one of the most experienced players. Can you at last sometimes post what you think about certain situations.

Nikitakit: If you are to bussy you should replace. The question if you must, is one for Ghostlin. If really good luck to you, more luck on the future, have fun in further games.

Haylen: If your time and your health alows it, can you please look at AwesomePoe vs me some more and think about it. Thanks.

This goes to everone, I really believed in caught scum, but invite you all to look for any posibilty that AP can still be town, I don't see it (Even when we don't combine it with day 1.

[StefanB]

Edit by post: The Gs substitute Ghostlin in my last post with GLaDOS. Arrgh!

[AwesomePoe]

mod prod on cflip, please.

[Ghostlin]

A few things: The Haylen L-1 argument is bad, and here's why: unless you believe she's psychic, she couldn't have known that WIR would of self hammered at L-1, even if she is scum. At that point, you only have to tell the rest of town not to hammer, and get information. This was the second sizable wagon on WIR that day; WIR had alerted some townies (and at least one scum, probably) to his play long before the L-1 by Haylen. To contrast, the L-1 I did eariler by accident that day wasn't suitable. It was really one of the first wagons, and at that point was a good opportunity to have a quickhammer happen, denying town more information. In fact, the WIR quick selfhammer did this anyway, and now we know he isn't scum, but I think it justifies the votes we placed on him.

Making the argument, or implying the argument is WIFOM. While WIFOM isn't scummy in and of itself, scum have a tendency to set up arguments like this more than town does, so it doesn't really give AP town cred. The L-1 is a null tell for Haylen, although again, I wish she was around more.

About Stefan:

He's probably still the most town in my eyes: I can't see his votes for anything except pressure, and it got nikita out of hiding before replacement at the end of Day 1. He's figured out that voting is the most important thing here, NOT just discussion. I think the overvote might be an experience issue or a gameplay one. He's either very protown or the slickest scum I've read so far, and I'm inclined to the first.

Hurristat:

You're fencesitting. You mentioned to Deer he's not on your scumlist. Who IS on your scumlist?

AP:

Wow, that's a bad argument in 202. Are you seriously guessing that Haylen would know WIR would self-hammer, since it's not a common move for town at all (you're seen as being a VI for doing it) with her L-1 vote? She mentioned a strawman argument and crap logic, which is good indications of scumplay. Do you have evidence this is a fallical argument OR any other supplemental argument besides 'Haylen voted the L-1 vote'?

All:

Sorry for not being around yesterday, internet problems.

[StefanB]

AP: Chkflip has allready been proded see post 183

Ghostlin: I second that Hurri says who is on his scumlist, I think I know but would here it, nevertheless.
I would ask that all: Who do you think is the scummiest player at the moment if you are not voting?

[StefanB]

hear of course stop posting for today,

[hurristat]

Okay Hurristat: You are right, being sure is a good thing before you think someone is scum.
But please look at the argument, look what really happened and think about it okay?

I did and came to the same conclusion as before: maybe AP is mafia and is trying to make you overreact (which he managed) and end up on a lot of people's scumlists, or maybe he's town and strongly believes you're mafia, and is trying to get you to overreact in order to get you lynched.

Hurristat:

You're fencesitting. You mentioned to Deer he's not on your scumlist. Who IS on your scumlist?

Okay here it is:

Scummy

AwesomePoe
Nikitakit
StefanB
chkflip
Deer
Haylen
Ghostlin

Town

For the purposes of this list, I consider the top two to be on my scumlist, and the bottom two on my townlist (but these things can change)

[StefanB]

Hurristat wrote:

I did and came to the same conclusion as before: maybe AP is mafia and is trying to make you overreact (which he managed) and end up on a lot of people's scumlists, or maybe he's town and strongly believes you're mafia, and is trying to get you to overreact in order to get you lynched.

That's making everythink to easy.

First: Overreacting is not a scumtell, so if I overeacted is not quite a question. Btw: My overeaction is pretty mild if compored to a lot of other people on the board. I will try to make the case very clear in the next post and ask Poe to do the same in his next post.

Second: Even if I overreacted, I will say that my arguments make more sense than most of the thinks Poe wrote, exspecially if you compare the last two posts with his last on the subject of me.

Not suprised by your top 3 scumsuspects, I kind of suspected them, didn't know the order through.

Why exactly did I move from second most town in your opinion to 3rd most scummy, because I started to attack Poe after he used bad argument after bad argument? If not, than why?

[StefanB]

The case against AwesomePoe:

Day 1: 1.Aktive lurker
2. Tunneling on WIR, not trying to do much about the other players.

Day 2:
1. Starting a list, which maine point was to make himself look better, and trowing dirt on certain players (from the points after it, I would say beside me, Haylen who he goes against at the moment and Deer) who looked for most players protown on day 1 (I give you that is one of the weaker points against him.

2.Ignores reason for what happened sticks only to his interpretation of facts, doesn't even admites that certain facts are commen knowledge.

3. I just can't see what was so nasty about 172.

4. Makes reason seem unimportant.

5. Tryes to make my vote (which is currently on him) seem not worth much/ at last less than any other vote.

6. The hammering comment, yust to trow dirt around, has nothink to do with the rest and he hasn't anythink that makes it even likly in the whole game.

7. Calls me on trying to erease thinks that are imposible to erease and should be know by all.

8. He is lying in 187, that's not what happened in the discusion.

9. Taking a point from Ghostlin: If he believes me to be mafia, why isn't he voting for me? All this attacks and no vote? How does that fits together with me being so scummy?

Thats the AwesomePoe case. Anyone has any argument against it?

[GLaDOS]

Day Two Vote Count #2

2 AwesomePoe (StefanB, Ghostlin)
1 nikitakit (Haylen)
1 hurristat (Deer)

With

8

alive it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is February 11 at 8:30 PM CST.

Not Voting – 4 – AwesomePoe, chkflip, hurristat, nikitakit

Mod Note

: Replacing chkflip (failure to respond to prod) and nikitakit (by request).

[AwesomePoe]

@Ghsotlin: that doesn’t make sense, why would I say that? The point was whether or not WIR self-hammer which nobody saw coming was not the point. The point was Haylen was the last to vote WIR, and she did so when it wasn’t all that necessary. She could have torn down his case with plastic safety scissors, it was so weak, but keep her vote off WIR. WIR was an easy lynch because of his mishandling of the whole game. The players at the tail end of his wagon look scummy, because at that point of the day everyone could make a case against him, town and mafia.

@hurri: you’re leaving out two really anti-town cases in the SB vs AP argument. There are two directions the mafia “->” can go. Does my alignment reflect more on SB, or does vice versa?

If it is the case that both AP and SB are town, then this is day two frustration coming to boil. Two townies are looking for the scum they didn’t find in the day one lynch and are now focusing on the other as the probable scum they missed on day two. However, if it is the case that both AP and SB are both mafia, this is an altogether different animal.

Then the argument is two scum buddies distancing themselves from each other. SB looks more town then scummy to other players, while I look the scummiest to the most town looking players. This case is not likely, because one of the couple is secure in his town status while the other has thrown his security away. Distancing is unnecessary in the current environment.

Remember this, whatever happens this day, it is ultimately more important not to rush. We don’t have much of the info we wanted from day one. Since two players are being replaced. I don’t know how to access their alignment, or even consider them in my day two vote.

[hurristat]

Oh btw I have V/LA on February 3 - 6, but I will pop in occasionally on those days.

[Deer]

Hey Stefan, hurristat's scum. You should probably vote him. That's what I think.

[hurristat]

@hurri: you’re leaving out two really anti-town cases in the SB vs AP argument. There are two directions the mafia “->” can go. Does my alignment reflect more on SB, or does vice versa?

If it is the case that both AP and SB are town, then this is day two frustration coming to boil. Two townies are looking for the scum they didn’t find in the day one lynch and are now focusing on the other as the probable scum they missed on day two. However, if it is the case that both AP and SB are both mafia, this is an altogether different animal.

Then the argument is two scum buddies distancing themselves from each other. SB looks more town then scummy to other players, while I look the scummiest to the most town looking players. This case is not likely, because one of the couple is secure in his town status while the other has thrown his security away. Distancing is unnecessary in the current environment.

Those are both valid scenarios, but I doubt the mafia would resort to distancing themselves from each other at this point in the game, if they are, then it's probably bad strategy. And if you're both town, I suggest that you tone the harsh rhetoric down a bit and use more reason and less emotion. Ultimately, this paragraph of yours doesn't really change my opinion on either of you two, my amended scumlist stands at (until nikitakit and chkflip are replaced)

Scum

AwesomePoe
StefanB
Haylen
Deer
Ghostlin

Town

You're really the only active person on my scumlist right now, AP, so I feel compelled to do this:

Vote: AwesomePoe

But I'm still keeping my eye on StefanB and Haylen for the moment.

Thats the AwesomePoe case. Anyone has any argument against it?

I do think that he was pretty provocative in some of his posts, especially with respect to the "value of your vote," and that's why I'm voting for him. This list seems more OMGUS than anything, and it sounds like many of these were created with the intention to incriminate AP while lifting all the blame off of you. While this last thing isn't necessarily bad, when combined with OMGUS, it's quite suspicious. Maybe AP was just trying to get more information out of a player he thought was fairly cryptic. Maybe he was giving his perspective on things. I don't know... but when trying to argue a point in mafia, there are no absolutes for the town -- unless you're the cop, you don't know anything for certain. So I don't know for certain that AP is mafia, I just have a hunch. But it's all I have to go off of. So there are definitely arguments against what you say, but the real question to ask is: do the arguments outweigh the arguments against AP?

Hey Stefan, hurristat's scum. You should probably vote him. That's what I think.

I probably should comment on this....

Deer: what sort of thing are you basing your vote on me on? I'm still not quite sure why you're voting me, other than "you're doing everything a town should be doing." If it's simply that you're getting scummy vibes from me, fine, okay, whatever, but I don't quite understand your vote.

[Haylen]

What about asking why Stefan doesn't want to vote for Hurristat?

Awesome Poe is really dipping down on my town list right into where my scummy people usually sit :< I think the case against me with regards to the self-hammering of WIR was made using poor logic that lacks town motive and was very opportunistic. I will certainly look into your case against him, further, Stefan.

Hurristat, do you have any reasoning for your placings? Btw, I don't advocate listing town reads, which is why I wont be doing mine any further than necessary in the game.

[hurristat]

Hurristat, do you have any reasoning for your placings? Btw, I don't advocate listing town reads, which is why I wont be doing mine any further than necessary in the game.

Yes, I do. I think AwesomePoe is the scummiest right now as he is being mildly confrontational right now while trying to maintain the "helpful townie" face as well. It seems kind of forced. (and fair enough about the no more town reads thing, that makes sense)

[GLaDOS]

Mod Notes

:

Zachrulez replaces chkflip, effective immediately.
Nocmen replaces nikitakit, effective immediately.

[hurristat]

Welcome, Zachrulez and Nocmen.

[StefanB]

Hallo Zachrules, hello Nocmen.
Welcome to our little town.

[StefanB]

Deer wrote:

Hey Stefan, hurristat's scum. You should probably vote him. That's what I think.

While Hurristat is not looking very townie right now, voting Awesome Poe is definitly right.

Hurristat: AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH (I fell better):

Hurristat wrote:

This list seems more OMGUS than anything, and it sounds like many of these were created with the intention to incriminate AP while lifting all the blame off of you.

OMGUS is voting on someone whitout any other reason than that he is voting for you. Even if AwesomePoe would be voting for me, OMGOS is not what is happening here. Attacking someone for a bad case is completly okay, even if the bad case is on you. (It is also not scummy to attack the person who attacks you, if you have good reasons.
Second tell me what did I create. I interpreted APs Posting, I didn't create anything.

Other point there are no absulutes in mafia: But there is reason, logic and motives and reactions of other people. You should try to make sens of the game and its players. We will get no absoluties.

[StefanB]

Just have to say that AwesomePoes last post was really good and made some interesting points. The fact that Hurristat is not even thinking about town vs town is strange. I don't that anymore because I think that Poes post screamed scum, but if he can't deciede what is going on, that should be on his mind at last as possibility.
Of course the point were I disagre is frustration. I don't vote for AP because of frustration, I have my reasons.
What we should wait for is the 2 new players. Potential new inside and 2 people more to read, good.