Mini 1117 - Manhattan Special - [GAME OVER]

[GreyICE]

So scum hunting is a dick measuring contest and lurker voting is pro town, have I got it right Grey?

So lurkers are pro town, is that about right el simo?

Hunting scum is pro town. Not sure WHAT the Charlie foxtrot on page 1, 2, and 3 is. Started when emp declared a 50 man scum team and rolled from there. Not singling you out, but there is no fucking way IS or the longing is really helping much right now. I read it as a mostly town CF though (but people should answer questions... Hmmmmm)

[InflatablePie]

D1 Votecount #2

[2] Empking - Midnight's Sorrow, Substrike22
[2] GreyICE - CrazyQuestions, el simo
[2] ShadoWolf - Internet Stranger, Empking
[1] CrazyQuestions - ShadoWolf
[1] saporovirus - GreyICE
[1] Internet Stranger - Erratus Apathos
[0] Pergol
[0] Midnight's Sorrow
[0] Substrike22
[0] TheLonging
[0] Erratus Apathos
[0] ConfidAnon
[0] el simo
[4] Not Voting: saporovirus, Pergol, ConfidAnon, TheLonging

Please point out any possible mistakes. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to No Lynch. The deadline is Saturday, February 12th, at 12PM EST.

This post has been edited because I wrote el simo's name in the Not Voting category instead of TheLonging.
And again because I fail at math.

[TheLonging]

why did I unvote empking I didn't even mean to

vote: empking

[Internet Stranger]

I made my case on Shadow, its not my fault none of you all are ignoring his scummyness.

[GreyICE]

Okay, blah. I like this game and want to give it the time it deserves, but I feel like there's quite a few people who haven't even joined the party. Where's Pergol? What's the person who my vote is sitting on doing? ConfidAnon is what now? I mean seriously, we could have 1 scum playing ball with us out here and two hiding in the lurkers to see which way the winds are blowing. Hell, this could be an all-town bash.

Come on people, not forming wagons until I see who is joining us. Call that anti-town if you will, but I've found that scum behavior on wagons is not readable if scum AREN'T POSTING.

[Erratus Apathos]

Come on people, not forming wagons until I see who is joining us. Call that anti-town if you will, but I've found that scum behavior on wagons is not readable if scum AREN'T POSTING.

How can you extol the virtues of reading scum behaviour on wagons when you refuse to form one?

[GreyICE]

Come on people, not forming wagons until I see who is joining us. Call that anti-town if you will, but I've found that scum behavior on wagons is not readable if scum AREN'T POSTING.

How can you extol the virtues of reading scum behaviour on wagons when you refuse to form one?

If you're asking me what is best wagon, easily EMP by a mile. He's acting quite odd with the "I nailed the entire scumteam" jazz. Sure. The lurkers are still scummy.

I think wagoning a lurked gets us more though. Both the 1 shots are scummy.

[ShadoWolf]

Come on people, not forming wagons until I see who is joining us. Call that anti-town if you will, but I've found that scum behavior on wagons is not readable if scum AREN'T POSTING.

How can you extol the virtues of reading scum behaviour on wagons when you refuse to form one?

If you're asking me what is best wagon, easily EMP by a mile. He's acting quite odd with the "I nailed the entire scumteam" jazz. Sure. The lurkers are still scummy.

I think wagoning a lurked gets us more though. Both the 1 shots are scummy.

If you think EMP is the best wagon, why aren't you voting him? What's the benefit of lynching a lurker? I've always found lurking to be a null-tell. Both sides do it equally.

[el simo]

So scum hunting is a dick measuring contest and lurker voting is pro town, have I got it right Grey?

So lurkers are pro town, is that about right el simo?

Nope lurking is a null tell.

[Empking]

Come on people, not forming wagons until I see who is joining us. Call that anti-town if you will, but I've found that scum behavior on wagons is not readable if scum AREN'T POSTING.

How can you extol the virtues of reading scum behaviour on wagons when you refuse to form one?

If you're asking me what is best wagon, easily EMP by a mile. He's acting quite odd with the "I nailed the entire scumteam" jazz. Sure. The lurkers are still scummy.

I think wagoning a lurked gets us more though. Both the 1 shots are scummy.

If you think EMP is the best wagon, why aren't you voting him? What's the benefit of lynching a lurker? I've always found lurking to be a null-tell. Both sides do it equally.

It might be my bias but this looks like coaching to me. Any thoughts?

TL: What have I done that is scummy?
MS: What have I done that is scummy?
Sub: What have I done that is scummy?

[ConfidAnon]

Page 1

Not a fan of the GreyICE wagon. Selfvoting is not a scumtell.

Only other notable thing is that Substrike seems to be speaking the truth.

Page 2

I'd like everybody to note that Empking thinks he has called the entire scumteam, based on about 10 posts in total.

I don't like this. To me, Empking's play thus far reminds me of someone stretching outside the box in order to garner various reactions in the early game. I don't see his current play as neccessarily completely serious (though there is likely some legitimate suspicion behind his points). Keeping that in mind, as I think this is a fairly apparent thing, I don't like SW's early defensiveness.

Youre also trying to insinuate that I actually want to see Grey hang. I have already said that I wanted the discussion we are already having. I am joyful, elated and will need tissues by page 3 at this rate.

Funniest line of the game so far.

He's just mud flinging! Calling out Internet Strangers play with out actually commenting on it himself! Not only is it totally non committal but it's classic scum bait, I bet he is just waiting for someone else to take his hook and run with it.

Sorry, I don't really understand this one.

Calling somebody scum after 10 posts is a perfectly reasonable town play. Its typical hyperbole.

This bothers me. Defending yourself by just saying "AM NOT." The way you worded this almost seems like you are trying to make a statement appealing to a common convention to ward off suspicion without actually explaining it.

I'm extremely confused, and slightly disturbed, by CrazyQuestions "daddy - bad boy" example.

Page 3

If youre having daddy issues, go see a therapist. Im here to catch the scum, not to make you feel better about yourself.

Internet Stranger does it again, another funny line!

I don't really like how el simo is calling out CrazyQuestions on ambiguity, but ignoring substrike, who is guilty of the same thing (curious re: IS).

Page 4

Furthermore, you could always consider that he popped in quickly, MAYBE had time to write a quick short post, and not have enough time to reply to a bunch of content that's not THAT viable? I don't know. If he posted a long post here (or two) while he was here, I'll take you only a bit more seriously.

I agree with this. I know that I absolutely hate catching up in a game (not just speaking of this game, but many games), and I've been known to delay it a little when there's a lot of content to read through (it's not fun). However, I don't like how TheLonging just made excuses for Grey.

I think it's much too early in the game to say that people are lurking. We're 4 pages in. I'm not liking the fact that those accusations are around already.

This is terrible. Are you reading, or just skimming? The accusation against Grey is not lurking, but avoidance when he is known to have been on the site.

Part II tonight.

[TheLonging]

If you think EMP is the best wagon, why aren't you voting him? What's the benefit of lynching a lurker? I've always found lurking to be a null-tell. Both sides do it equally.

Did you just ignore everything else that has been said, JUST to address this? Are your partners in the lurkers? Do you even know what is going on Shado? You've done better than this.

TL: What have I done that is scummy?

Didn't I already say? You calling Grey scum for not posting in the thread 4 hours after the game started. However, Shado is more scummy than you know, see ^

unvote
vote: ShadoWolf

[Empking]

TL: What have I done that is scummy?

Didn't I already say? You calling Grey scum for not posting in the thread 4 hours after the game started.

I called him deliberately avoiding the thread for his lack of posting. And he was deliberately avoiding the thread. ( He admitted to it later.)

[TheLonging]

I don't like RVS too, does that make me scum? e_e

[CrazyQuestions]

You never said he was scummy or voted him once in these quotes.

The fact that somebody does not vote or say SCUMSCUMSCUM does not imply anything. Have you noticed that I have not voted yet?? My words express my opinions. If you cannot read them or my messages are confusing, just ask, but I have expressed clearly that I was mostly looking at IS and Strike. I do not need to show off saying, I am looking you "BECAUSE I AM TOWN", "I AM SCUMHUNTING", HEY YOU SEE ME GUYS? I AM A GOOD TOWNIE...if you need to do this, then I will ask myself whether you are scum, because I do not see the reason for which a townie would do so. I have expressed very openly my observations, and I have shared them. That is pro-town, the rest is either a contest of "im the towniest among the townies" or "im the dick-est among the dick-ies". None of them helps to catch scum.

you made these statements but did nothing with them, you were just throwing them up in the air.

What am i supposed to do in page 1 with my observations except throwing them up in the air?????

this is scummy because its bait for town to use with out you getting yourself dirty after a possible lynch.

lynch? what the hell you talking about? This was the first day in 2 weeks. I am planning to use all the time we have for deciding which is the best lynch. And when I have enough observations, I will do my cases and attack more seriously players. Meanwhile, I post my observations for you to notice what I am finding relevant along the game.

again you did nothing with it, you just left it

Again, what am i supposed to do? SHOUT MORE?? I do not need to vote someone everytime i find a scumread, or i would be voting 10-20 times every day. I post my thoughts and give ideas for people to observe/analyze. That is how town succeeds, by sharing information. Measuring Dicks, Shouting stupidly and voting 20 times you only create chaos and confusion, and mafia benefits from it.

to check a meta, to find out if this is your normal play, to see if you are always this purposely vague or if it's just you being bad scum.

I HAVE NOT BEEN PURPOSELY VAGUE. I HAVE OPENLY EXPRESSED MY VIEWS ON IS AND STRIKE.
YOU CALL VAGUE TO A RATIONAL PRO-TOWN BEHAVIOR. NOTED.

[CrazyQuestions]

...words...

Snif Snif, you forgot me. No need to tell me why, but you can do it after answering me what you have avoided,

i.e., why you found me scummy first.

I'm sorry I missed your question. What was it?

The question is repeated in the 2-lines post. You avoided it again. I bolded it to facilitate your work.

[CrazyQuestions]

This means I have the second biggest, just how the ladies like it.

NON-GAME RELATED VOTE. Consider it a change in my "random vote". You are not in my list of suspects. If you have a doubt about why i am voting you, then I am sorry, you are lost for society.

vote EL SIMIO

[GreyICE]

It might be my bias but this looks like coaching to me. Any thoughts?

What, in all you have seen of me, gives you the idea that Shado would be coaching me? He wants me to act predictably and in a way he can read, I'll give you that.

I'm not voting for you, by the way, because you do not read 'scum' at the moment, you read 'null, with a side of crackers.' I don't vote for people who I really don't think are scum. You're the only person to do a real investigation into me, you're the only person trying to form a wagon, I might not LIKE how you're doing it, but you don't read scum and I don't vote people that I wouldn't be happy to see lynched. Your wagon is the best wagon, but I think they're all kinda fail, and want to see one go through on a better target. I'm no fan of the failwagon.

Substrike reads town to me. Shado... I'm trying to overcome enormous bias here, since I'm in

[REDACTED - ONGOING GAME]

and his behavior there was... Right now, I'd say townish, for Shado.

So scum hunting is a dick measuring contest and lurker voting is pro town, have I got it right Grey?

So lurkers are pro town, is that about right el simo?

Nope lurking is a null tell.

LURKING IS NOT A NULL TELL.

Think about it. On average, Mafia is around 25% of the town. That means 1 in 4 posters are scum. Now go through past completed games, and find how many lurkers were scum. You'll find it's much, much more like 1 in 2. On day 1, for successful mafia, it's a lot, lot higher. Check out the mini normals, watch scum start contributing on days 3, on days 4, even on days 2. Watch the ones who post a ton on day 1 get fingered and die.

Why? Lurking gives you a host of benefits as scum. There's no time for scumslips. If you don't post anything, no one will find anything scummy that you posted. You don't have to commit to a wagon until you're sure it's going well, if people don't like your behavior you can slide by, and if the town is full of arguing personalities, you get overlooked. And in the early game, you have no control.

Late game, you've killed people. You've had pages to know how people think. Those who you are worried about are very likely dead. You can get more, and more, and more prolific.

LURKING, ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY GAME, IS A SCUMTELL.

No, it's not a certain one. Not by any stretch. But 25% of early game lurkers are scum, the way a null tell statistic woud say? Not hardly. I'd say more like 1 in 3 or 1 in 2.

[Internet Stranger]

Is there a reason why Crazy is deliberately NOT mentioning Shado in any of her posts? That just screams misdirection to me. In fact, Crazy has mentioned just about everyone except Shado. First it was the whole sillyness of some childre'ns book story and now a little staged war with Simo.

Hey Crazy, are you trying to distance yourself from Shado?

My vote on Shadow stands with a big fat:

FOS: Crazy

[GreyICE]

This means I have the second biggest, just how the ladies like it.

NON-GAME RELATED VOTE. Consider it a change in my "random vote". You are not in my list of suspects. If you have a doubt about why i am voting you, then I am sorry, you are lost for society.

vote EL SIMIO

Hmm, I'd consider joining the wagon on 'people with no taste or sense.'

But there'd be so many targets to choose from.

Oh, for the day when I pull serial killer... It shall be a grand one.

[Empking]

It might be my bias but this looks like coaching to me. Any thoughts?

What, in all you have seen of me, gives you the idea that Shado would be coaching me? He wants me to act predictably and in a way he can read, I'll give you that.

Because you're scum buddies.

TL: If you deliberately ignore the thread in order to avoid answering uncomfortable questions then: Yes. That would be a point out of your favour.

[GreyICE]

Because you're scum buddies.

TL: If you deliberately ignore the thread in order to avoid answering uncomfortable questions then: Yes. That would be a point out of your favour.

I was avoiding the thread because I wanted to see how the wagon on me formed. Who pushed it, who fence sat, who voted while FOSing others, who defended me, who lurked, etc. It was my intention to post again when I was at L-2 and had some really good data.

I'm not sure where that wagon went...

[CrazyQuestions]

Is there a reason why Crazy is deliberately NOT mentioning Shado in any of her posts? That just screams misdirection to me. In fact, Crazy has mentioned just about everyone except Shado. First it was the whole sillyness of some childre'ns book story and now a little staged war with Simo.

DEFINITELY, YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS.

I have talked of Shadow in two different episodes.

1) In one of them, Substrike/IS bad daddy-boys argued with Grey/shadow.
2) In another, I mentioned his parroting.

I am sorry if i cannot dedicate more time to all players. Time is limited. There are indeed many others I have not explored at all. And your insistance in changing votes makes it more and more chaotic.

I made my case on Shadow, its not my fault none of you all are ignoring his scummyness.

Do you really made A CASE on one player in page 6?
I would appreciate if you summarize in an ordered way your findings, so I can analyze them in detail. I promise to answer each of them and take the most nitid position allowed by your "case". I do not promise to defend him with my armour or to initiate a shouting lynching, as it is page 6, but I promise to give as detailed answers as possible to your "case-points".

LURKING, ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY GAME, IS A SCUMTELL.

Let's just agree that lurking is a (minor) scumtell all along the game. Sharing information helps the town. Otherwise, we are just playing an equal chance lottery.

[GreyICE]

On scumtells. There's certain ones and noncertain ones. In a newbie game, when the doctor dies, and someone says "The cop should breadcrumb his results" they're scum and should die. Then there's less certain ones - trainhopping, general lack of care who lives or dies, forced logic, seeming foreknowledge of flip results, etc.

Lurking is in the second category. It's not any scummier than opportunistic trainhopping (I've seen posters hop from train to train just because they're being really indecisive) but it doesn't make me happy, happy at all.

Anyway crazy, I think we're in agreement.

[Internet Stranger]

Oh I see, Crazy wants me to do her homework for her. That sounds more like an Inundation Defense to me. Put the onus on me to conjure up pages after pages of material just so she can sit there and denounce it all. Its like dumping thousands of pages of material on someone in order to drown them in crap.

Lawyers do that crap all the time. Are you Shado's lawyer now? What kind of game are you trying to play with us here.

I already said why Shado is scum. He hasnt even contributed anything. No accusations, no observations, nothing. Even after I called him out. Just snippets and snide remarks. You want a case, thats it. But dont try to get all screwy with me Crazy, I got my eye on you!

IGMEOY: Crazy