Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[bobsnox]

my tactic




Yosarian2's head

look at all the opportunities FF has to vote me, try to get a wagon on me, etc. and look at how he keeps trying to avoid it. Why would he do that? Because he's scum and he knows I'm town.

[brokenscraps]

Yes, it's a request. It's also an incredibly scummy thing to say, because no pro-town person should ever say "lynch me" and mean it. That would be incredibly anti-town, and in complete violation of the town win condition. The only person who should say something like that is a scum who's being manipulative.

Either that or someone who is trying to establish a meta for playing scummy as town, which is horrible as well.

[Yosarian2]

my tactic




Yosarian2's head

look at all the opportunities FF has to vote me, try to get a wagon on me, etc. and look at how he keeps trying to avoid it. Why would he do that? Because he's scum and he knows I'm town.

He was voting you for quite a while, bob.

The only odd thing about FF's play so far is that he was voting you, then when someone accused him of chainsaw defending Darla, he dropped his attack on you and signaled a willingness to vote Darla. This kind of does look bad; especially if Darla is scum, that would make FF a likely scumbuddy who doesn't want to be linked to her.

For the most part, though, FF looks more town-ish to me right now.

[bobsnox]

"bob I'll unvote you as soon as you do something townish because I don't really want to vote you in the first place" <--- rough paraphrase of his initial vote on me

[Final Fires]

Well, per your request...

Vote: Bobsnox

And Bob, I'm not sure what you mean by saying I haven't been trying to get a bandwagon on you, because I absolutely have. I said the main reason I voted darla was for knowledge. Knowledge that if she was town, we could go ahead and vote you off. The only reason I unvoted was because I knew there wasn't going to be enough momentum to get a wagon on you on Day 1, but I think you just got the ball rolling.

[Final Fires]

And also...

"bob I'll unvote you as soon as you do something townish because I don't really want to vote you in the first place" <--- rough paraphrase of his initial vote on me

You haven't done anything even remotely townish, so this reasoning is off.

And since when have you been after yos? It seems like you just go after whoever accuses you. Darla, me, bub, and now yos. OMGUS?

[bobsnox]

unconditional this time or what?

[Final Fires]

Yes sir. This just confirmed it for me.

[bobsnox]

And also...

"bob I'll unvote you as soon as you do something townish because I don't really want to vote you in the first place" <--- rough paraphrase of his initial vote on me

You haven't done anything even remotely townish, so this reasoning is off.

And since when have you been after yos? It seems like you just go after whoever accuses you. Darla, me, bub, and now yos. OMGUS?

why is it that you don't understand anything I'm saying? I never said I did anything townish. YOU said you'd UNVOTE ME if I SHOWED SIGNS OF BEING TOWN OR WHATEVER. WHICH IS RIDICULOUS - IF YOU VOTE SOMEONE, VOTE THEM. DON'T GIVE THEM/YOURSELF A WAY OUT OF BEING VOTED/VOTING. That was my point. You put a farcical vote on me with the condition that you would take it off prima facie should I behave in a manner to your liking. My whole point was to show how ridiculous that is. "Bob just act like town and I'll unvote you"????? That's akin to saying "Bob I KNOW you're town (because I'm scum), so don't make me keep my vote on you AND GET MYSELF LYNCHED IN RETURN"

WHEN DID I AT ALL HINT THAT I THOUGHT YOS WAS SCUM? I DIDN'T. I DIDN'T EVEN IMPLY I THOUGHT YOS WAS SCUM.

[bobsnox]

Bub is scummy because he intentionally took it upon himself to criticize my play as scummy/poor while simultaneously acknowledging that he thinks I'm town. And all this while we're on the same wagon, trying to get Darla lynched.

[Final Fires]

And also...

"bob I'll unvote you as soon as you do something townish because I don't really want to vote you in the first place" <--- rough paraphrase of his initial vote on me

You haven't done anything even remotely townish, so this reasoning is off.

And since when have you been after yos? It seems like you just go after whoever accuses you. Darla, me, bub, and now yos. OMGUS?

why is it that you don't understand anything I'm saying? I never said I did anything townish. YOU said you'd UNVOTE ME if I SHOWED SIGNS OF BEING TOWN OR WHATEVER. WHICH IS RIDICULOUS - IF YOU VOTE SOMEONE, VOTE THEM. DON'T GIVE THEM/YOURSELF A WAY OUT OF BEING VOTED/VOTING. That was my point. You put a farcical vote on me with the condition that you would take it off prima facie should I behave in a manner to your liking. My whole point was to show how ridiculous that is. "Bob just act like town and I'll unvote you"????? That's akin to saying "Bob I KNOW you're town (because I'm scum), so don't make me keep my vote on you AND GET MYSELF LYNCHED IN RETURN"

WHEN DID I AT ALL HINT THAT I THOUGHT YOS WAS SCUM? I DIDN'T. I DIDN'T EVEN IMPLY I THOUGHT YOS WAS SCUM.

Oh dear. Caps. And rage.

First of all, I never said I would unvote you if you did anything townish. I said if you had a good defense, I would be glad to unvote you. You didn't. So my vote stayed. I think that's perfectly fair - if people have a solid explanation for their behavior, then it makes sense to unvote them. See page 2, my initial "post of doom" and then later my explanation. It was fair for people to unvote me, because I had a legitemate reason for acting the way I did.

At that point in time I used my vote more as a method of getting answers out of you. If asking you to elaborate and at least explain the points you were making is trying to manipulate you "in a manner to my liking", then yes, I absolutely did. I don't have a problem with being brief, but being brief to the point where it's anti-town bothers me.

You just said "my tactic... yos's head". I think it's fair to say that everyone who read that assumed you meant you wanted yos dead (when you say you want someone's head, this is normally what it suggests). This either implies you're town and you think he's scum, or you're scum and you just want him dead.

And if I were scum, why on earth would I ask you to act townish? No one could blame me the next day if you acted scummish. I asked you to elaborate so we could get more info to go from, but you gave practically nothing. If I didn't want to vote you, I wouldn't have. My vote on ender was fine, and I could've easily stayed there if I had wanted to.

[Final Fires]

(And I do realize I misinterpreted 253. I missed the word "initial". Sorry about that)

[Fishythefish]

Read, mostly. One of those reads that gets rather patchy towards the end, as my eyes complain that they've been open for far too many hours.

VOTE: ender

Prefer this to a DBE wagon, although that's by no means awful. More on both of these and some other stuff tomorrow, too tired tonight.

[Empking]

llamarble replaces ender

[bobsnox]

You just said "my tactic... yos's head". I think it's fair to say that everyone who read that assumed you meant you wanted yos dead (when you say you want someone's head, this is normally what it suggests). This either implies you're town and you think he's scum, or you're scum and you just want him dead.

if something is up here






and someone's head is down here



then something is over someone's head.




my strategy was OVER Yos's head.

[Empking]

Vote Count 10

1. bobsnox (2) - DarlaBlueEyes, Final Fires
2. DarlaBlueEyes (6) - Bub Bidderskins, CMAR, DLG, MoreWhisky, bobsnox, flinter
3. flinter
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver (0)
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
12. Final Fires (1) - ender241
13. ender241 (4) - Yosarian2, Jahudo, Nikanor, Fishythefish
14. MoreWhisky (1) - Brokenscraps

Not Voting: ,



With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

[Yosarian2]

So...your whole theory was that final fires was afraid to vote you, so you were demanding to be lynched in the hopes that you would show he was afraid to vote you? That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Weren't you worried that, like, everyone else might vote you?

Tbh, it still looks like a scum gambit to try to prove how townie you are by demonstrating how self sacrificing you are. That's also what I think about Ender's post, by the way.

[brokenscraps]

bobsnox's tactics are garbage, whatever allignment

Also
UNVOTE: whisky

vote was doing nothing, will place a new vote after a reread.

[DLG]

Prefer this to a DBE wagon, although that's by no means awful. More on both of these and some other stuff tomorrow, too tired tonight.

Welcome to the game. Look forward to your continued analysis.

llamarble replaces ender

Welcome to the game. At least the player you are replacing left a remarkably low bar for you to exceed. ender241 looked very scummy in your slot. Can you explain this at all?

No votes til I'm done with the read thru and I have officially gotten my role PM now.

Big post is in the making.

Was your role PM the cause of this delay?

bobsnox and FinalFires both seem determined to out-scum the other in an attempt to make the other look bad. To both of you, why?

[Llamarble]

Hi all, will catch up tonight.

[CryMeARiver]

Was your role PM the cause of this delay?

No, no, not at all. That'd be the district soccer championships we've had all week (just lost in the semi's in overtime 3-2). Should have that big post out (it's in the making in a separate tab currently) on Saturday.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Welcome to the game Llamarble. First question: What do you think of the DarlaBlueEyes wagon?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

@mod due to illness and death of family pet I will be V/LA until Monday please do not replace

posting this in all my games, don't expect it to be a huge hinderance - just more of a just-in-case and 'why I am so slow'

[Fishythefish]

ender (Llamarble)

1. I didn't like his early vote for FF. By then, I think FF looked much better, and I think ender's line of FF looking like he knew what he was doing isn't a credible line of thought. FF's story of being thrown by coming from another rings really true, and I don't see how you could interpret it as scummy. After unvoting, not voting again until it was pointed out might betray that he was thinking more about his image than about his target or what his vote will do. Which is a little bit scummy - townies think about both.

2. His post 150 - "feel free to lynch me to show Darla's scum". You see these kind of appeals, usually from noobtown. But this one really doesn't ring true. When you see this from town, it is from tunnelled town who have shouted themselves hoarse about the object of their tunnel, to no avail. ender, on the other hand, had given DBE a middling FOS, since when he had voted MW

for his reasons for voting DBE

. This doesn't add up. He explains with "I think if everyone thinks Darla is scum that it would be a wise choice to kill her, if i have to be killed for a scum to be taken out then i am willing for that to happen." That doesn't sit well with me. If he doesn't really think DBE is scum, there's just no way that can feel like a good trade from where he's standing.

3. After an absence, ender comes back and throws an accusation at bob, a popular target at the time, for no stated reason, and does not vote him. A move which scum might well have made (it's a shame we can't ask him why).

Darla

0. Really can't decide whether to abbreviate to Darla or DBE.

1. Play related to ender. First (64) meta says noob and Darla Fosses. Then (77) it seems ender is just a noob. Not very inconsistent - just can't decide how much to trust "ender looks scum all the time" meta. On the other hand, DBE says she feels this is a

reliable

meta - which doesn't square well with the change. DBE moves away from this stance when ender attacks him, and it feels like she's trying to influence his play when she accuses him of OMGUS. This happens rather fast, and afterwards DBE seems keen to justify it - she keeps emphasising that ender is

getting scummier

, not just that he is scummy. I don't think that's true, and more to the point I think the amount of emphasis DBE puts on this idea is unnatural. See posts 120 and 127 - ender's play is getting "progressively worse", his defences "weaker and more hostile-emotional", his behaviour has got "increasingly scummy" and his actions "progressively more scummy". Since Darla had posted this:

@DLG - My stance on ender is simply Meta. The other game we participated in he acted exactly the same, blatant scum moves, and ended up we killed our doc due to other factors which I don't want to elaborate on due to the game being on going. If you want to see it yourself it's Newbie #1045. I am not disregarding his actions but I know this is how he plays as town, and granted I haven't seen him as scum either,

I honestly just see him as a n00b and do not like his wagon. My guess is that we have at least one if not two scum on that wagon because he's made himself the perfect target for a scum push.

As for Fires I don't know, I just get a noob vibes off him. Between he and ender I'd be more inclined to do an ender lynch, but again, I would need something more blatant from him to make me think he wasn't actually town given the meta I have.

until 120 and 127, this is the sum total of all of ender's posts:

Knowing what I do about Ender's META coupled with what he's done so far here, I'd say he's suffering from uber-n00b syndrome even still. That or he really just is not good at this game. Either way, I was a bit unsure whether or not to take his actions as noob or super scummy and then he re-voted seemingly only out of pressure. Now I lean more towards scum.

FoS Ender.

You change your mind quickly, first it was "yeah that's his meta", not someone has said something about it quick mind change onto thinking i'm scum...

FoS DarlaBlueEyes.

For me, this post just does not justify DBE's change of stance, and her insistence that ender has got much worse. In 120 DBE also undermines her previously firm meta on ender.

Other points on DBE from others: early fence sitting on FF. Meh. Perhaps something scum do a little more, no stronger than that. Iso of Striker looking forced to try to build another wagon - yes. Definitely looks like she is positioning herself in case that takes off.

@DBE: comments on any of the above would be welcome, particularly any clarification about how your stance on ender changed. Also, you mentioned suspicions of Striker and MW. Where did they go?

BB

The way BB is already blaming other people on his wagon makes me feel he knows it's a mislynch (157 and 200) and is already trying to shift the blame. But I'm not quite sure whether that's something scum actually do or not. So, yeah. Not sure there's much point to this section.

@BB: if you dislike the votes of some of you fellow wagonners, does that change your opinion on DBE? Why would DBE's flip seriously implicate MW or bob? Consider that if bob/MW is town, they do not know the alignment of DBE. Town are just as capable of making crap cases against town and scum. If their cases are scummy, you don't need a flip to confirm that.

@brokenscraps: who is scum? Do you have any strong feelings about Darla or ender?

On the scale of day 1 certainty, I think it's quite likely exactly one of Darla and ender is scum. I think the ender wagon feels more like a scumwagon - difficult to get going, not so many easy votes on it. Reading the game thinking "the scum don't want ender lynched" feels better than reading it thinking "the scum don't want Darla lynched". I think good reasons for voting ender have attracted remarkably little attention, which you wouldn't expect if the rival wagon was on scum. So I'm leaning ender, and my vote stays there.

[Llamarble]

I'm not all the way through, but so far Darla and FF look town and Yos looks probably town (though I know he's good as scum). Whiskey looks scummy, but we'll see how things appear once I'm fully caught up. Also I have no idea who I'm voting.

Unvote