Mini 1117 - Manhattan Special - [GAME OVER]

[GreyICE]

I do understand why you don't want a prolonged discussion of your scumminess and want to go back to your town wagon.

But I don't. You're scum.

[Empking]

I do understand why you don't want a prolonged discussion of your scumminess and want to go back to your town wagon.

But I don't. You're scum.

Why am I scum?



What!? This is a totally different subject!

[CrazyQuestions]

@Grey: As far as I am reading, your case on Empking started simply because you considered the following words as the scummiest thing in the thread.

Oh yeah somebody needs to vote Shado

Given the fact that IS shouts for L-1 and the rest of players in the wagon implicitly consider L-1 correct, even the crazy-one who is voting-not-voting shadow, might you tell me why Empking is a rara avis in this group? Why is that especially relevant in his case?

[GreyICE]

You still want two more votes on an L-2 wagon On a fairly likely towni. Scummy

[Empking]

You still want two more votes on an L-2 wagon

Evidence?

On a fairly likely towni.

Why do you say that?

[CrazyQuestions]

You avoided the question.

Why is particularly scummy from Empking and not from all the rest of players in the wagon who have implicitly accepted the L-1.

[TheLonging]

OK crazy and emp, so you ARE going to ignore me. fine. I see.

As far as I understand, you asked me no question. Do you want me to answer something in particular?

You asked Empking. I believe he thinks the question on why he finds me town was doubly answered in the thread. First, in a direct way when I asked long ago. Second, with a contradiction argument right above.

"So he's either all types of scum... or town!"

As far as I understand his words, this is:

She is town. Understanding her behavior if she is mafia would require to accept that she is AT THE SAME TIME such type of scum and such an opposite type of scum.

This.

Did you two even read my post above you, or are you ignoring me because you don't want to look scummy?

Am I really going to have to play this game

again

?

I'm at L-2, right? Sound like a time for a claim?

L-1's are best times for claims.

...

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?. Nietzsche.

tl;dr

[Empking]

TL: Your questions proved you missed the point. Now find the point and reread your questions. Then you'll see why I haven't answered them. If you do reread your questions and still want me to answer then just repost them.

[ShadoWolf]

First off, a claim, since there appears to be an eagerness to lynch me. I'm a Vanilla Townie. Not a groundbreaking claim, but it's the truth.

Analysis time, and some responses. Starting at page 8.

By popular petition, I start with Shadow. I continue later.
SHADOW
1. Parrots my words attacking IS in his first post. I read his vote on me as a joke, but mixes a serious criticisms with a fun joke.
2. He moves into clarifications with me and empty discussions with Empking, including ridiculous extreme arguments like depicting Empking as someone who already found scum in 10 posts. Shadow can perfectly be interested in slow play, but in that case and thinking as I do, where is he trying to get hints or reads? Which players is he targeting or studying?
3. When pressured to participate after lurking, he mixes a "defence" of lurking as null-tell with an attack to the player who favours wagoning lurkers (Grey) at the same time that Grey has disfavoured the player with whom Shadow is discussing (Empking). In his last post, he parrots me again as I pointed out in my summary how IS' case is just one observation (that is not even his).

1. I have no problem with this criticism. I don't like that you called it parroting, but it's understandable that you see it that way.
2. You call my argument "Extreme" and "Ridiculous", but Empking did actually say that he thought he had found scum in his post, roughly 10 pages in. I am interested in slow play, as it's easier to analyse. I'll summarise my reads later in this post.
3. Once again, not liking that you call it parroting, but I'll live. Same point as point 1.
I didn't try to defend lurkers, I just think that certain players are/were trying to push a lynch on lurkers, which is an easy lynch to push, and rarely finds scum this early in the game.

You know why you see me as not scumhunting? Because both Shado and IS are flat out not responding to the cases on them. Shado isn't explaining why he's not scum hunting, and IS isn't answering shit. I'm scum hunting; they're refusing to be hunted.
Now Shado is just resorting to ad hominem.

Apologies to IS for telling him to fuck off, but I was feeling a little stressed at the time, and I forgot the main rule of Mafia (Have fun). It won't happen again. However, as you said, I wasn't responding to the cases against me, so I'm doing that now.

Your being scum is condition on Shado being scum.

This is a dangerous statement to make, because while alignment flips are useful for making connections between players after someone flips, some people could use this the other way, and clear certain people as town based on a flip of a town player.

GREYICE
2. His attacks tend to focus on those players who "favoured" him (calls longing buddier, Shadow lurker), and takes the side of Empking. He does not expose any theory on what he was expecting to happen from his funny thing, which sounds bad. And quickly he moves into lurkers (saporo).

IS is attacking without any coherence and does not let even answer (and Erratus is suspecting of IS)

RE: GreyICE: I see that point as GreyICE possibly trying to get closer to his attackers so they don't attack him as much.
RE: Point 2: QFT.

Expected, Crazy? I expected to be on L-2 with a wagon formed and waiting for me with pointed questions. Would have been interesting, I get soooo much information out of wagons. I'll tip my hand at this point, that was my goal. It's hard to do, because you want to do something that's insane, but not specifically scum (you get much less information out of wagons that are formed because the victim has just been mimicking total scum).

I have no idea why anyone would defend me rather than wait for me to defend myself, my actions can at best be described as 'eccentric.' Which, well... they were

Sounds like a town gambit to me, now you've explained it.

Crazy: English isn't your first language is it?

I'd also like an answer to this. Your posts are sometimes quite confusing to read. No offence intended.

SWs most recent post makes me want to move my vote from Grey to him, I believe town would reacted to IS by improving their play so IS wouldn't have a point, SW is just complaining about real life and saying IS is wrong.

I'm attempting to improve my play now, as I say, I'm trying to put my RL stuff aside for now, and play this game properly.

They don't make me uncomfortable, I just think the accusations levelled were brought up too early in the game.

And, according to this, when in the game would be an acceptable timeframe for accusations?

Day 2, at least. Or at least a week after we began. Not ~20 hours. Some people have distractions come up that prevent them from putting all their efforts into Mafia.

Crazy is either both very good scum (the large posts of reading people) and rather awful scum (the angering IS and the like) OR he's town. Oh yeah somebody needs to vote Shado.

With two different lurkers and pergolwtf and the general tone of posters you want him at L-1? And you didn't announce this, begging for the ninja hammer?

This is... The scummiest thing I've seen this game.

And I don't give a shit ever who says I'm scum. Anyone can check my meta to see that. I call trying to cause a ninja quicklynch scummy.

QFT.

Crazy: WTF?!? I'm not pressuring Shado?? Lol wut?!?

I have a vote on him. I'm top of the god damn mountain calling for his lynch. What are YOU doing. You're stalling!

Stop asking for more proof, for more evidence. Shado doesn't post anything useful. Its all one excuse after another and namecalling from him. THAT is my proof, THAT is my evidence. So sod off, I'm doing my job! My vote isn't compromised, its on a very likely scum! You haven't even voted for him, you're making as many whiny excuses as he does. Grow a sack a drop a vote.

Don't use your misdirection tactics as evidence that you're somehow helping. All your observations are meaningless. All you're doing is adding wet garbage to the fire.

As much as it pains me to say it, he's right. He is pressuring me, probably the most out of anyone here. However, I hope this post proves that I can in fact post something useful. While I do see IS as somewhat town (scum wouldn't push this hard), pressuring for an L-1 vote on me is somewhat scummy.

...

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?. Nietzsche.

While I can appreciate the works of Nietzsche just as much as the next man, this is so irrelevant it pains me to respond to it. Try to keep on topic, CQ.

I'm at L-2, right? Sound like a time for a claim?

L-1's are best times for claims.

Well, I've claimed now, as I feel that a quickhammer would happen if I waited for L-1.

Unvote

(thought I did this a while back)

Scumreads in another post, this one's becoming long-winded at best.

[Empking]

Ok, unless I've accidently walked into a 13 player newbie player game the fact that Shado has QFT'd Grey's fear of Ninja Hammers pretty much cements them being scumbuddies in my mind.

[Internet Stranger]

Why do they think that we wouldnt be all over anyone that decides to ninja hammer? Even if after Shado turns out to be scum, other scum will ninja hammer to silence their dead homey. So ninja hammerers never prosper.
And with a Vanilla townie claim, this might as well be at L-1 now.

I love the hat in hand concession speech Shado made. But we cant let scum live. Im all for stringing ShadoScum up.

[ShadoWolf]

Ok, unless I've accidently walked into a 13 player newbie player game the fact that Shado has QFT'd Grey's fear of Ninja Hammers pretty much cements them being scumbuddies in my mind.

Yeah, it's weird that I fear ninja-hammers, being as though I like staying alive in this game. From my point of view, I'm the only confirmed townie, so I'm kinda eager to avoid dying, as I can't help town from beyond the grave.

Why do they think that we wouldnt be all over anyone that decides to ninja hammer? Even if after Shado turns out to be scum, other scum will ninja hammer to silence their dead homey. So ninja hammerers never prosper.
And with a Vanilla townie claim, this might as well be at L-1 now.

Yeah, it's true that the guy who hammers will be heavily scrutinised, I will concede that, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

I love the hat in hand concession speech Shado made.

The what? Sorry for being a bit dim today.

But we cant let scum live. Im all for stringing ShadoScum up.

And I'm all for letting ShadoTown live. That's just a personal opinion of mine though.

IS: Out of curiosity, what will you do when I flip town? Because I want a very sincere apology when this is over. Especially if scum end up winning.

[Empking]

Yeah, it's true that the guy who hammers will be heavily scrutinised, I will concede that, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

Yes the fact that it won't happen is why it won't happen.

[ShadoWolf]

Yeah, it's true that the guy who hammers will be heavily scrutinised, I will concede that, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

Yes the fact that it won't happen is why it won't happen.

Assuming that's true, why the great pressure to put me on L-1? The only difference between L-1 and L-2 is that L-2 prevents a quickhammer, assuming 2 people don't vote quickly in succession.

[Empking]

Yeah, it's true that the guy who hammers will be heavily scrutinised, I will concede that, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

Yes the fact that it won't happen is why it won't happen.

Assuming that's true, why the great pressure to put me on L-1? The only difference between L-1 and L-2 is that L-2 prevents a quickhammer, assuming 2 people don't vote quickly in succession.

What great pressure to put you at L-1? (Also I should mention that I said NINJA HAMMAHS won't happen not that they'd be unwelcome.)

[ShadoWolf]

Yeah, it's true that the guy who hammers will be heavily scrutinised, I will concede that, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

Yes the fact that it won't happen is why it won't happen.

Assuming that's true, why the great pressure to put me on L-1? The only difference between L-1 and L-2 is that L-2 prevents a quickhammer, assuming 2 people don't vote quickly in succession.

What great pressure to put you at L-1? (Also I should mention that I said NINJA HAMMAHS won't happen not that they'd be unwelcome.)

That wasn't actually just directed at you, sorry it came out that way.

[CrazyQuestions]

@Longing: If you want a different thing, please ask again, since I did not see anything else. If you simply wanted to hear my position on shadow, please read post 176.

@Shadow

1. Since you simply deny the parroting without any particular argument and avoid the other issue, I cannot comment.
2.

I am interested in slow play, as it's easier to analyse.

. I already covered that in my analysis. Since you do not analyze it, I cannot comment.
3. Since you simply deny the parroting without any particular argument, I cannot comment.

Your posts are sometimes quite confusing to read. No offence intended.

If you find one of my posts confusing, please mention which. I will rewrite it.

While I can appreciate the works of Nietzsche just as much as the next man, this is so irrelevant it pains me to respond to it. Try to keep on topic, CQ.

1. Why do you feel compelled to comment this post? If you have decided to "scumhunt" or "participate", you better start with the dozens of posts before this, as obviously, isolated posts do not tell much.

2. It is not irrelevant. It is very relevant because I basically considered alpha-IS (god) dead in terms of our particular tennis game.

@all: What do you mean with "ninja-hammer" ? Also, why the hell are you so worried about quick hammers? You already "have" 6 votes because I compromised mine. Nobody quick voted you. This is the good thing of compromising a vote. I can enjoy analyzing, IS gets a heartattack waiting for me to vote, and we advance at a reasonable pace.

p.s. if there is any reason for which a sort of newbie in open games should not hammer, please keep me posted so I can vote for L-1. I planned to join a closed small game but as you can see, I mismatched the queue

[Empking]

Actually CQ there is a reason for why you shouldn't hammer: Super Saints!

(Also the game isn't open.)

[CrazyQuestions]

@empking: Yeah. The other way around. I planned to play a small open game with a known set up, so I could easily familiarize with roles. As you can see, I did choose a wrong queue. I realized before starting the game, but since the mod said in the queue that newbies were welcome, I stayed.

I just read the wiki about Super Saints. I am ok with the pack of voters deciding who is the scummiest player among the 7 voters, so this player hammers. If you have any other sort of mechanism like that to minimally increase the chances of the group, I am also fine with it.

Once Grey has talked, I would like to hear something from Strike, Simio and Saporo. Especially the latter, as she is my scummiest read among the lurkers. In any case, I am satisfied with the wagon and I am fine with voting.

[el simo]

Ok, unless I've accidently walked into a 13 player newbie player game the fact that Shado has QFT'd Grey's fear of Ninja Hammers pretty much cements them being scumbuddies in my mind.

Yeah I'm finding it hard to disagree, ignoring all of the diddly squat that has happened between me and CQ I'm willing to call him the third man in the party just based on how hard he seems to be trying to not vote SW.

[Erratus Apathos]

@

Midnight, saporo, whoever replaces Confid, whoever replaces Pergol

:

What are your thoughts on Shado?

[TheLonging]

CQ: those 3 quotes? I never wrote them.

[InflatablePie]

D1 Votecount #5

[5] ShadoWolf - Internet Stranger, Empking, TheLonging, el simo, Erratus Apathos
[1] Empking - GreyICE
[1] Midnight's Sorrow - Substrike22
[1] Substrike22 - Midnight's Sorrow
[0] GreyICE
[0] CrazyQuestions
[0] saporovirus
[0] Internet Stranger
[0] Pergol
[0] TheLonging
[0] Erratus Apathos
[0] ConfidAnon
[0] el simo
[5] Not Voting: saporovirus, Pergol, ConfidAnon, CrazyQuestions, ShadoWolf

Please point out any possible mistakes. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to No Lynch. The deadline is Saturday, February 12th, at 12PM EST.

PMing RichardGHP concerning replacement of ConfidAnon.

Now, tomorrow, I have to work at noon - right when Pergol is due to be replaced (unless he posts). So while I'm not extending his prod deadline, it

will

be a few hours until I can PM a possible replacement (in this case, Fugitive is next in line to replace, unless I get no response from Rich). Just a note.

[InflatablePie]

Richard is not able to replace in. Fugitive replaces ConfidAnon.

[Fugitive]

Sup bitches?

Will read thread tomorrow. Just checking in for now.