Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[Llamarble]

Mostly bidderskins. I still need to ISO brokenscraps and various other people.

[Llamarble]

Okay Flinter (might be lurkerscum) and Broken and Nikanor and DLG aren't really readable today. I'll sort them out tomorrow. Fishy & Yos look like scum if Bub is, but that's getting ahead of myself.
And I get the morewhisky contradiction now, but I think he's actually just being sarcastic when he compliments Bob on his 'original' idea. Whisky is still scummy though.
At this point I'm confident Bidderskins is the best lynch for today.

Bub is scummy because he intentionally took it upon himself to criticize my play as scummy/poor while simultaneously acknowledging that he thinks I'm town. And all this while we're on the same wagon, trying to get Darla lynched.

Okay this Bobsnox guy looks town.

[Llamarble]

My reads are getting settled in at this point, so I'll summarize with a list:
Town:
Llama
Jahudo
Bobsnox
Darla
FF

Null:
Broken
DLG
CMAR
Flinter

Somewhat scummy:
Yos
Fishy
Nikanor

Scummy:
Whisky

Scum:
Bidderskins

I'm going to go back and look for the case against Ender now and try to deal with it.
I want responses (Preferably votes in agreement) to my case against Bidderskins.

[DLG]

@DLG: WHY WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE LYNCH OF ANY OTHER PLAYER THAN ONE YOU CAUGHT LYING? YOUR PLAY IS CEASING TO MAKE SENSE FROM A TOWN PERSPECTIVE. AND WE HAVE A WEEK LEFT AND I HAVE PLENTY LEFT TO SAY, SO NOBODY HAMMER ME WITHOUT AT LEAST GIVING ME TIME TO TELL YOU WHO ALL THE SCUM ARE.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS; IT'S EASILY THE STRONGEST PRESENTED AGAINST ANYONE SO WHY ARE YOU IGNORING IT?

I can accept your lynch because your slot is and has been in my top 3 scum reads. I would prefer a lynch of MoreWhisky to yours, but that does not seem to be happening. He will still be held accountable for his lie.

Three weeks is a maximum, not a requirement.

Your read of DarlaBlueEyes oscillated almost as bad as ender241's. I still have high suspicion of her slot. Your case against Yosarian2 looked like pure OMGUS that was scummy because he has been the anchor of your wagon throughout.

Your Bub Bidderskins case revolves around him "knowing" you will flip town. This is based on an assumption that there is only 1 anti-town group in this game. Bub Bidderskins could be in one and you could be in another. So, that is a false dichotomy you are basing your attack on. Besides, I have a town read on Bub Bidderskins and your case did not compel me to re-evaluate that read.

I meant what I said. I am demanding a claim from you.

[brokenscraps]

Looks like Llamarble is shouting as loud as he can until people look at somebody else, does not look good.

k so I'm bussing Llamarble and possibly Whisky

Is this an attempt at sarcasm?

Day 1 I'm not dismissing individual scum tells for associative scum tells based on zero flips, and I'm certainly not gonna dismiss the possibility of anybody bussing. But I'm not calling a scum-team.

[Llamarble]

IF YOU BELIEVE A PLAYER IS CAUGHT LYING, ANY OTHER LYNCH IS UNACCEPTABLE.
That said I don't think Whisky's supposed contradiction was anything other than sarcasm even if he's scum.

We have more time and as I have only had a couple of days to get caught up I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum. Yosarian was talking about wagon growth speeds; this one on me has been TURBOSPEEDY as soon as I pointed out bidderskins as scum. DLG has climbed several places on the scumminess ranking for trying to make this lynch happen ASAP, trying to gloss over the fact that I have caught Bidderscum, and for claiming to believe somebody is lying but not seeking to force through their lynch (maybe cause you're buddies?).

I have already explained that my reads were evolving as I read more. It's not as if ANYTHING AT ALL happened between me stating a read and updating it that would provide a scummotive to flipflop.

OMGUS isn't a scumtell. If somebody voting me is scummy, I say so. If they're not, I don't. I'm not going to avoid attacking someone because they're attacking a town player (me); that makes no sense.

Bidderskins is scum because he spent more time attacking the wagon he was voteparked on with a weak case as scummy than pushing that wagon. What does this have to do with knowing my townflip?

Ignoring a case against someone because you have a townread on them is ridiculous. If you're town, you should be reading other players' cases to try and help you figure out who the scum are. Simply dismissing my case against Bidderskins as "not good enough" is garbage. Do you want me to elaborate further on why trying to lynch somebody for bad reasons and then having other players lined up for the next lynch who he thinks are helping him lynch scum is scummy?

I'm shouting that we should lynch Bidderskins because I am confident I have caught scum and I have about a week to convince a whole town whom I just met and don't particularly trust me yet.

[Llamarble]

I'll claim when I get reads on Bidderskins with explanations from around half the town or when we have 4 days left. There's no pro-town reason for me to claim right now with so much time left.

[Fishythefish]

UNVOTE:
I'm sure I don't want a claim or a lynch until I've given this game a look with an eye more awake and more sober than either of mine are right now.

[brokenscraps]

Yosarian is scummy because he's also preparing for a Darla townflip via calling the Darlawagon scumdriven and targeting the same members of it as Bub.

And you're claiming that the wagon was scum founded and tunneling that founder, what is your point here?

Whisky, Snox, and Ender are all appetizing/convenient scumtargets if town and they make up his scumlist.

I know you're capable of better than this HORRID, HORRIBLE reasoning that makes me cry. People are preparing for a townflip? Why would going after scummy players be scummy unless you had the flips that told you those players were town?

So he thinks Darla is using the newbcard to defend Ender? Lining up a lynch for after a scumflip isn't as big a deal as lining one up for after a townflip, but this guy's scumhunting is not impressive. I don't see a lie though (please explain) and he looks like a pretty easy mislynch if town.

Just how much setup information do you have?

With the whole "Bud is scum because he is supporting a wagon he thinks is scum driven" yes this might be worth looking at after today but nobody should be overly expected to dismiss an individual tell for an associative tell with zero flips and zero set-up info regarding multiple scum groups etc. that you'd make these connections now is just revealing more and more how much insider info you have.

When I say players look like appetizing scumtargets it means they look like they would be easy to push a lynch on irrespective of alignment.

No it doesn't, why would a player who was scum look like an appetizing target to scum? Could be a unfortunately needed bussing target, but your argument depends on them being town which with zero flips is a garbage case.

Why I am convinced of Bidderscum:

Complete lack of towntells. I see nothing in his posting that looks difficult to believe from scum.

You'd need to have town tells from an enormous number of players for this to be valid at this stage, which you don't (I'm counting 10 players you don't think are town right now).

Tunneling / vote parking on Darla with a weak case.

Can I ask why your reasons for finding DBE suspicious were so much better than everyone else's? And why you've only dropped her for an associative tell when there are zero flips (I keep repeating this, but you keep relying on scum knowledge)?

PLEASE, for the love of all that is good in mafia do not place your comments inside other people's quotes, it is annoying to read and even more annoying to quote.

Fishy & Yos look like scum if Bub is, but that's getting ahead of myself.

Oh yeah, saying you're getting ahead of yourself totally dissolves the fact that your already privately setting up lynches while publicly attacking others for doing the same.

OMGUS isn't a scumtell. If somebody voting me is scummy, I say so. If they're not, I don't. I'm not going to avoid attacking someone because they're attacking a town player (me); that makes no sense.

So scum and town can both vote the same player?! And others can't believe this why?

[Empking]

1. bobsnox (1) - DarlaBlueEyes,
2. DarlaBlueEyes (3) -, CMAR, MoreWhisky, flinter
3. flinter
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins (1) - Llarmable
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
12. Final Fires
13. Llarmable (6) - Yosarian2, Nikanor, bobsnox, Bub Bidderskins, Brokenscraps, Final Fires
14. MoreWhisky (2) - DLG, Jahudo

Not Voting: , Fishythefish


With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

[Llamarble]

Yosarian is scummy because he's also preparing for a Darla townflip via calling the Darlawagon scumdriven and targeting the same members of it as Bub.

And you're claiming that the wagon was scum founded and tunneling that founder, what is your point here?

His behavior fits with an apparent "lynch Darla then Snox/Whisky" plan shared by a Yosarian/Bub scumteam. Yos wasn't on the Darla wagon but wasn't really making a significant effort to derail it either and was voting Ender instead of one of the wagonmembers despite calling the wagon scum driven. Since this is partially associative, I'm not seeking to lynch Yos today.

Whisky, Snox, and Ender are all appetizing/convenient scumtargets if town and they make up his scumlist.

I know you're capable of better than this HORRID, HORRIBLE reasoning that makes me cry. People are preparing for a townflip? Why would going after scummy players be scummy unless you had the flips that told you those players were town?

Some players are easier to lynch than others irrespective of alignment because they are abrasive or careless. If a player puts a large number of them into their suspect pool it is more likely they want to push mislynches. How is this reasoning bad? I am also certain Ender is a mislynch and have a townread on Snoxie, though at this point Whiskey looks pretty scummy. Going afters player who are actually scummy is fine; scum are incentivized to go after players who will make attackable mistakes regardless of their alignment.

So he thinks Darla is using the newbcard to defend Ender? Lining up a lynch for after a scumflip isn't as big a deal as lining one up for after a townflip, but this guy's scumhunting is not impressive. I don't see a lie though (please explain) and he looks like a pretty easy mislynch if town.

Just how much setup information do you have?

With the whole "Bud is scum because he is supporting a wagon he thinks is scum driven" yes this might be worth looking at after today but nobody should be overly expected to dismiss an individual tell for an associative tell with zero flips and zero set-up info regarding multiple scum groups etc. that you'd make these connections now is just revealing more and more how much insider info you have.

Wait what? SUPPORTING A WAGON YOU THINK IS SCUMDRIVEN, VOTEPARKING WITH A BAD CASE, AND LINING UP LYNCHES FOR AFTER YOUR TARGET FLIPS TOWN ARE INDIVIDUAL SCUMTELLS. My entire case on Bub is based on individual tells. What is this multiple scumgroups stuff? I am not trying to deal with multi-scum shenanigans because that causes all kinds of weird stuff with scum legitimately hunting for the other faction (without insincere scumhunting what are we supposed to look for...) but trying not to draw NKs.

When I say players look like appetizing scumtargets it means they look like they would be easy to push a lynch on irrespective of alignment.

No it doesn't, why would a player who was scum look like an appetizing target to scum? Could be a unfortunately needed bussing target, but your argument depends on them being town which with zero flips is a garbage case.

I already explained this. Obviously scum don't want to lynch their buddies, but seeing a lot of players who would be easy to lynch on someone's scumlist suggests they care more about lynches being easy to push through than about them actually being on scum.

Why I am convinced of Bidderscum:

Complete lack of towntells. I see nothing in his posting that looks difficult to believe from scum.

You'd need to have town tells from an enormous number of players for this to be valid at this stage, which you don't (I'm counting 10 players you don't think are town right now).

Most players have at least done something that looks kind of weird under the assumption that player is scum. Scum of course normally do this intentionally, but Bub apparently hasn't bothered to this game.

Tunneling / vote parking on Darla with a weak case.

Can I ask why your reasons for finding DBE suspicious were so much better than everyone else's? And why you've only dropped her for an associative tell when there are zero flips (I keep repeating this, but you keep relying on scum knowledge)?

PLEASE, for the love of all that is good in mafia do not place your comments inside other people's quotes, it is annoying to read and even more annoying to quote.

Okay, not inside your quote anymore. I specifically disliked BubB's logic, which discussed DBE's hesitancy with her vote and moving around, both of which seemed perfectly reasonable behaviors from town. There is a HUGE difference between tunneling somebody all day until a near lynch with weak reasoning and simply expressing suspicion. My reasoning was based on a general lack of scumhunting, which is a more reliable tell since the primary difference between town and scum is that the town is actually looking for scum, but I ended up deciding she had given off enough sincerity/towntells and the wagon on her was scummy enough that Bub is a vastly better lynch. AND WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING I WANT TO LYNCH BUB DUE TO ASSOCIATIVE TELLS?? THAT IS SIMPLY FALSE.

Fishy & Yos look like scum if Bub is, but that's getting ahead of myself.

Oh yeah, saying you're getting ahead of yourself totally dissolves the fact that your already privately setting up lynches while publicly attacking others for doing the same.

As I've said, trying to figure out who a successful lynch of scum would implicate is not a scumtell because it does not play to the scumgoal of achieving multiple mislynches in a row. Obviously a Bubtownflip would force me to rethink things totally. Bub wants to lynch somebody, and then had already said who he wanted to lynch next if she flipped town. This does play to the scumgoal of getting mislynches in a row.

OMGUS isn't a scumtell. If somebody voting me is scummy, I say so. If they're not, I don't. I'm not going to avoid attacking someone because they're attacking a town player (me); that makes no sense.

So scum and town can both vote the same player?! And others can't believe this why?

Scum and town can certainly vote the same player... I have no idea what you're saying here.

[CryMeARiver]

Okay, I've been working (UNEXPECTEDLY) on the Extreme Makeover House in my area (if you watch the show, you know what I'm talking about). I barely escaped to post this much. I swear, I'll get a post out tonight I'm really super sorry but I worked that house practically Saturday morning thru Sunday morning and now I have Mass today.

[Jahudo]

MoreWhisky: What did you mean to say in post 285?

[MoreWhisky]

I thought maybe darla and llamarble are scum buddies, but ive now gone off that idea, im not gona join the Bw on llamarble.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum.

Oh really? I find writing in all caps to be the move of scared scum. Case in point.

@DLG: WHY WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE LYNCH OF ANY OTHER PLAYER THAN ONE YOU CAUGHT LYING? YOUR PLAY IS CEASING TO MAKE SENSE FROM A TOWN PERSPECTIVE. AND WE HAVE A WEEK LEFT AND I HAVE PLENTY LEFT TO SAY, SO NOBODY HAMMER ME WITHOUT AT LEAST GIVING ME TIME TO TELL YOU WHO ALL THE SCUM ARE.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS; IT'S EASILY THE STRONGEST PRESENTED AGAINST ANYONE SO WHY ARE YOU IGNORING IT?

If you have to write in all caps in order for people to pay attention to your substance, then that must mean you don't have much substance. Oh, and we can see how your case on me is the strongest of anybody with all the people jumping on my bandwagon. [/sarcasm]

Do you know why it is weak? Because it is birthed from desperate scum and built on a contradiction. You say that you don't like my case on DBE, then you say that you find Darla to be scummy. Then you vote for me and call me the scummiest player around. You think that Darla is scummy and yet you think that the main pusher of the Darla wagon [me] is scum. Your default stance on Darla is that she is town, and yet when you look back at her posts, you realize that she's been posting scummy. So you panic because she's your partner and you chainsaw me.

Also...

We have more time and as I have only had a couple of days to get caught up I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum. Yosarian was talking about wagon growth speeds; this one on me has been TURBOSPEEDY as soon as I pointed out bidderskins as scum.

and yet in the same post...

I'm shouting that we should lynch Bidderskins because I am confident I have caught scum and I have about a week to convince a whole town whom I just met and don't particularly trust me yet.

Look who's wanting a speedlynch now. And keep in mind that your player slot has been scummy from very early on. I'm not sure if he ever got a real proper wagon on him, but there have been people voting for him for pretty much the entire day. The reason for the speedy wagon is that your play has been especially scummy lately.

Okay, not inside your quote anymore. I specifically disliked BubB's logic, which discussed DBE's hesitancy with her vote and moving around, both of which seemed perfectly reasonable behaviors from town. There is a HUGE difference between tunneling somebody all day until a near lynch with weak reasoning and simply expressing suspicion. My reasoning was based on a general lack of scumhunting, which is a more reliable tell since the primary difference between town and scum is that the town is actually looking for scum, but I ended up deciding she had given off enough sincerity/towntells and the wagon on her was scummy enough that Bub is a vastly better lynch.

Wait, what? So now you think DBE is town? But didn't you say this:

Huh, maybe I was totally wrong on my first pass and Darla is actually scum. I don't see much attempt to figure out who the scum are coming from her; she seems to care more about convincing others not to vote her.

What's with the rapid swings man?

[DLG]

I'm sure I don't want a claim or a lynch until I've given this game a look with an eye more awake and more sober than either of mine are right now.

You are the only player who lost their nerve when I insisted I would place the hammer. Were your eyes sleepy and drunk when you posted this?

ender (Llamarble)
1. I didn't like his early vote for FF. By then, I think FF looked much better, and I think ender's line of FF looking like he knew what he was doing isn't a credible line of thought. FF's story of being thrown by coming from another rings really true, and I don't see how you could interpret it as scummy. After unvoting, not voting again until it was pointed out might betray that he was thinking more about his image than about his target or what his vote will do. Which is a little bit scummy - townies think about both.

2. His post 150 - "feel free to lynch me to show Darla's scum". You see these kind of appeals, usually from noobtown. But this one really doesn't ring true. When you see this from town, it is from tunnelled town who have shouted themselves hoarse about the object of their tunnel, to no avail. ender, on the other hand, had given DBE a middling FOS, since when he had voted MW for his reasons for voting DBE. This doesn't add up. He explains with "I think if everyone thinks Darla is scum that it would be a wise choice to kill her, if i have to be killed for a scum to be taken out then i am willing for that to happen." That doesn't sit well with me. If he doesn't really think DBE is scum, there's just no way that can feel like a good trade from where he's standing.

3. After an absence, ender comes back and throws an accusation at bob, a popular target at the time, for no stated reason, and does not vote him. A move which scum might well have made (it's a shame we can't ask him why).
...
On the scale of day 1 certainty, I think it's quite likely exactly one of Darla and ender is scum. I think the ender wagon feels more like a scumwagon - difficult to get going, not so many easy votes on it. Reading the game thinking "the scum don't want ender lynched" feels better than reading it thinking "the scum don't want Darla lynched". I think good reasons for voting ender have attracted remarkably little attention, which you wouldn't expect if the rival wagon was on scum. So I'm leaning ender, and my vote stays there.

[DLG]

[qutoe="MoreWhisky"]I thought maybe darla and llamarble are scum buddies, but ive now gone off that idea, im not gona join the Bw on llamarble.[/quote]
Continue to ignore your lie, scum. It might buy you another Day in the game.

[bobsnox]

Is MoreWhisky going to bus Llamarble?

[DLG]

It's not as if ANYTHING AT ALL happened between me stating a read and updating it that would provide a scummotive to flipflop.

Still rereading ISOs and stuff, but I don't like the DBE wagon.

Very next post.

Huh, maybe I was totally wrong on my first pass and Darla is actually scum. I don't see much attempt to figure out who the scum are coming from her; she seems to care more about convincing others not to vote her. On meta perusal I can see her being scum, but it's not very clear. How soon is the deadline? I need to read more.

What happened, the only thing that happened, in between these two was a vote-count which showed DarlaBlueEyes with 6 votes. Scum motive to flip-flop? Blend into the crowd. Don't stand out. Stay off the radar.

I'm going to go back and look for the case against Ender now and try to deal with it.

Except, you already knew what the basis of the case was.

I can see how Ender attracted some votes; he doesn't really make sense to me, especially the lynch me so Darla can die next stuff without a particular read on Darla. I'll just have to redeem this slot by CATCHING ALL THE SCUMS MWAHAHA!

This was just a buy some more time strategy.

Okay this Bobsnox guy looks town.

Based on the fact that he posted an objection to Bub Bidderskins play before you subsumed it as part of your "best case against anyone" in the game so far?

Ignoring a case against someone because you have a townread on them is ridiculous.

I didn't ignore it. I read it and wasn't impressed.

We have more time and as I have only had a couple of days to get caught up I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum.

I find begging to stall town momentum the move of a player who replaced into a scum slot that was played horribly by the first occupant.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS

It isn't even really yours, though.

The way BB is already blaming other people on his wagon makes me feel he knows it's a mislynch (157 and 200) and is already trying to shift the blame.

Add to this bobsnox's critique of Bub Bidderskins and we have

your

case in a nut-shell.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: MoreWhisky[/quote]
VOTE: Llamarble
Someone else hammer this scum. He's at L-1 now and refuses to claim.

[Final Fires]

I thought maybe darla and llamarble are scum buddies, but ive now gone off that idea, im not gona join the Bw on llamarble.

Just in his last post:

The reason i complimented Llamarble on his posts is because i do believe ender and Darla are on the same side,scum. So llamarble had/has an uphill struggle taking over from ender. And hes doing a nice job of it.

Just a few posts ago you felt confident ender and darla were scum. You even claimed you pointed out that they were the "main culprits" to us! Why the sudden change of heart?

One thing that is going on in this town is that your better of not posting, I say that as this is what Darla is doing now(even if these reasons are very genuine) and its working! Im not scum im town,

ive told you who the main cuprits are Darla and the new llamarble.

And llama, a lot of your points against bub were that he tunneled in the darla wagon. But with that being said, at the time people were mostly torn between two votes: Ender and Darla. If you're assuming that he's evil, then why was he spending so much time making sure ender didn't get lynched? Wouldn't assuming bub is evil allow us to assume that he was just protecting a fellow scum buddy?

Bub is one of those people who I feel like I won't have a solid read on until after the first lynch. However if we were to assume that Bub was lynched and did flip scum, then you would be one of my top target for a day two lynch. Maybe the reason you feel so confident that he's scum is because you actually do know? It seems kind of like a bus attempt, because it was so out of nowhere. No one had been excessively suspicious of him before; the fact that you pick up on things that nobody else does suggests you know more than us.

[Llamarble]

It's not as if ANYTHING AT ALL happened between me stating a read and updating it that would provide a scummotive to flipflop.

Still rereading ISOs and stuff, but I don't like the DBE wagon.

Very next post.

Huh, maybe I was totally wrong on my first pass and Darla is actually scum. I don't see much attempt to figure out who the scum are coming from her; she seems to care more about convincing others not to vote her. On meta perusal I can see her being scum, but it's not very clear. How soon is the deadline? I need to read more.

What happened, the only thing that happened, in between these two was a vote-count which showed DarlaBlueEyes with 6 votes. Scum motive to flip-flop? Blend into the crowd. Don't stand out. Stay off the radar.

I'm going to go back and look for the case against Ender now and try to deal with it.

Except, you already knew what the basis of the case was.

I can see how Ender attracted some votes; he doesn't really make sense to me, especially the lynch me so Darla can die next stuff without a particular read on Darla. I'll just have to redeem this slot by CATCHING ALL THE SCUMS MWAHAHA!

This was just a buy some more time strategy.

Okay this Bobsnox guy looks town.

Based on the fact that he posted an objection to Bub Bidderskins play before you subsumed it as part of your "best case against anyone" in the game so far?

Ignoring a case against someone because you have a townread on them is ridiculous.

I didn't ignore it. I read it and wasn't impressed.

We have more time and as I have only had a couple of days to get caught up I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum.

I find begging to stall town momentum the move of a player who replaced into a scum slot that was played horribly by the first occupant.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS

It isn't even really yours, though.

The way BB is already blaming other people on his wagon makes me feel he knows it's a mislynch (157 and 200) and is already trying to shift the blame.

Add to this bobsnox's critique of Bub Bidderskins and we have

your

case in a nut-shell.

Lawl @ DLG "SOMEBODY QUICKHAMMER PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE BEFORE HE FINDS US ALL SO I CAN LYNCH YOU REAL EASY TOMORROW HEHEHE"
I was asked about the Darlawagon as soon as I showed up, so I was fully aware of it during both of those posts. Hence my statement that NOTHING happened between those two posts.
I've produced more content in 3 days than most players in this entire game. Why do you want to lynch me again?
I want the specifics of the Ender case so I can go back and deal with it more precisely. It seems to me that Ender believed other players were convinced Darla was scum if he wasn't and so was willing to die to get her lynched if she was scum (Obviously this doesn't make sense but townies are confused sometimes). He apparently didn't vote her because he didn't understand why other players seemed to be convinced of this. He was a confused townie.

I pointed out that Ender did strange stuff and stated my intention to redeem the slot by good scumhunting.

Because people who think the same way I do usually have the same perspective on the game. This is by far the most reliable town-tell I know of.

Explain what's unconvincing. Is it the part where BB voteparks with a weak case, or the part where he posts more of a case against the people who are on the wagon he's pushing than against the wagonee and explicitly states that they're targets for tomorrow after a DBEtownflip? Or is it the part where he has failed to give off towntells, or has switched wagons off one he was pushing most of the game for the pathetic reason "meh my Darlawagon only has 4 votes so I'd rather lynch this guy cause he's caught me?" HOW WAS THAT WAGON "NOT GOING ANYWHERE?" THAT IS A GARBAGE EXCUSE. Or where he says "let's lynch Darla for information" so he can justify his staying on the wagon after her townflip by saying "Oh it was just for the info?" Or where he ignores my case against him and instead tries to get me quicklynched? I haven't even destroyed his most recent post yet, but basically he now is attacking me for using capslock and based on a misrepresentation of my stance on Darla. And he compares me wanting to lynch him D1 with DLG wanting me quickhammered with substantial time remaining before the deadline. Oh well I'll get to that next.

I want time so I can scumhunt, as I've already stated. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU POSSIBLY THINK NOT WANTING TO BE QUICKLYNCHED IS A SCUMTELL????

And while Fishy and Bob did indeed notice that scumtell from Bub and deserve credit, and that is a central reason Bub is obvscum, my case goes substantially beyond that.

By the way if anyone is curious how my Darlaread evolved, I found her town on first readthrough, somewhat scummy on second readthrough and then by the time of my next post on had put her back in the town column where she has stayed. This was all in my first 2 days in the game.

[bobsnox]

Llamarble needs to be lynched already. Let's get some new info. He keeps saying he's going to scumhunt - what's he waiting for?

[Llamarble]

Did you even read my case against BB?

[Llamarble]

I thought maybe darla and llamarble are scum buddies, but ive now gone off that idea, im not gona join the Bw on llamarble.

Just in his last post:

The reason i complimented Llamarble on his posts is because i do believe ender and Darla are on the same side,scum. So llamarble had/has an uphill struggle taking over from ender. And hes doing a nice job of it.

Just a few posts ago you felt confident ender and darla were scum. You even claimed you pointed out that they were the "main culprits" to us! Why the sudden change of heart?

One thing that is going on in this town is that your better of not posting, I say that as this is what Darla is doing now(even if these reasons are very genuine) and its working! Im not scum im town,

ive told you who the main cuprits are Darla and the new llamarble.

And llama, a lot of your points against bub were that he tunneled in the darla wagon. But with that being said, at the time people were mostly torn between two votes: Ender and Darla. If you're assuming that he's evil, then why was he spending so much time making sure ender didn't get lynched? Wouldn't assuming bub is evil allow us to assume that he was just protecting a fellow scum buddy?

Bub is one of those people who I feel like I won't have a solid read on until after the first lynch. However if we were to assume that Bub was lynched and did flip scum, then you would be one of my top target for a day two lynch. Maybe the reason you feel so confident that he's scum is because you actually do know? It seems kind of like a bus attempt, because it was so out of nowhere. No one had been excessively suspicious of him before; the fact that you pick up on things that nobody else does suggests you know more than us.

Oh yeah Bub has been trying real hard not to get me lynched... Scum don't care which townie they lynch. D1 they want to be thought of as trying to scumhunt and they want to get a townie lynched. Bub never said anything like "we shouldn't lynch Ender because stuff." Bubscum has been fine with either lynch all along. And you saying I'm probably scum if Bub flips scum is RIDICULOUS. I am voting him because I see his play as scummy, and as has been pointed out I was not even the first to notice his scummy behavior.