Newbie 1046: Game Over

[Nocmen]

Nocmen what was so protown on Nikitakits play on day 1?
Huristat: Day 1 game me a feeling as trying, Nikitakit not so much. The point what is worse: scummy players or lurkers, is difficult (btw AP wasn't that active either. Question: Do you still want my reads day 1 or do you want to talk about my reads now. The first think is a fact that can't be chanced and your new points, have no place in the discusion (because they didn't play that much a role on day 1), if we talk about readings now thats a different think.

There isn't much there as protown in the way of nik's play D1, but I feel it is much less scummy than hurristat's play. I never claimed nik's play as being protown. I'd also say its much the same as chk's play.

[Haylen]

Chkflip

He didn't really post that much, however, I do not see that as a scumtell because I recently replaced him in a game I'm modding.

I like both Deer and Haylen's defense/etc thus far, but it could change with the course of the game.

Fencesitting = scummy because it allows the person to change their views on a person over and over without arousing suspicion. Especially since he specifically chose those defences and did not mention any future actions myself or Deer may do. ie. I don't find their defences scummy...ten days later...actually, I find the defences quite scummy now.

His third post bothers me, the views he gave. Reading back at it, you should see that the majority of it is Information Instead of Analysis, which is anti-town because it allows to scum to look as though they are posting content when in fact they are not.

Zachrulez

I think Zach is scum primarily due to meta. We know each other pretty well and he claims to know scum-hayl inside out (I think he's actually only seen me play 1 other town game) and thus he would know when I'm scum and when I am not. In this game, however, he comes in and pretty much straight of the bat tells everybody I'm scum: now he may know how I play as scum, but it also works the other way round; I know when he's scum. Which makes me dangerous to him. He is finding me scummy in a reaching manner - saying that I'm scum because I put someone at L-1 as I didn't believe he would be hammered, this is why I didn't think he would be hammered:

* Stefan voted for Kit a page before I voted for WIR for lurking.
* Ghostlin was pushing Kit was answers and I could see a vote coming from it.
* Deer voices the opinion that he wanted Kit to by lynched
* Quote from Hurristat: "6) Nikitakit -- Keeps promising things he doesn't deliver. Actively lurks etc. This is where the mafia-ish-ness start"
* I too, voiced suspicions on Kit.
* Stefan gives Deer a chance to persuade him to vote for Nik in post

That's 3 out of 4 of the players voting for WIR at that time. Ghostlin, Deer and StefanB were the most influencial people in the game on day one and thus I could have seen them leading a lynch on Kit. Kit is also one of the leading wagons today which shows that my predictions as to people switching to Kit during Day One definately had strong potential of occuring

With regards to Nocmen, I am confused because I obviously had a scum read on Kit and yet I have a fairly town read on him. I guess I should keep a look out. At this point, what concerns me most about Hurristat was the doc-fishing at the beginning of the day, I don't see a problem with the rest of his current play.

At this moment in time, I am inclined to believe that AP is more likely to be town than scum, I can't really see a newbie-scum analysing vote counts throughout Day One in order to try and trap people. Hmm just noticed him mention a difference in Hurri's play, I'm going to look into that a bit more tomorrow - if it's there, I'm probably not likely to notice it at this time in the morning.

I like Ghostlin's play today, no problems.

My stance on StefanB has wavered slightly, but not enough for me to consider him to be any less town that I believe him to be. I mention the misrepping of Hurristat in saying he was appealing to emotion when he clearly wasn't, as the primary reason for this.

[Nocmen]

Haylen: If you're going to mention doc-fishing, what about AP's possible doc-fishing?

[Haylen]

Quotes please. I can't find what you're talking about.

[Zachrulez]

Actually Haylen, the only thing that really bugged me about you post wise was that bit following your lynch -1 vote of WIR. Also you have been lurking, and while lurking you have been paying attention to other games while ignoring this one... so yeah, there's some nagging things, but you aren't at the top of my suspicions.

I think AwesomePoe is actually the most likely scum. Hurristat's recent posts have give me pause, but he would be my next suspect. Then it would probably be Deer, Haylen and Nocmen in no paticular order. (Nocmen's attack of me 271 in particular was just odd. Twitches me with a thought of possible buddying to Haylen.)

That leaves StefanB and Ghostlin, who strike me as town.

Vote: AwesomePoe

(L-1)

[AwesomePoe]

I'll say one thing about the doc issue. I'm from the future. I can here in a time machine that the Doc invented. Now I need his help to get back to the year 1985.

As for hurri's reaction: If you read his meta, WIR was a fairly inexperienced player. In the one other game he played he was lynched D1 for the exact same behavior he showed us D1. This is just to say he was a complete newb then and he was a complete now. Not much to do about it. If a inexperienced player doesn't try to keep up with the more veterned players he will get left behind. If the same player actively obstructs other players progress, he is much more likely to get the boot. Which is what happened here. Because WIR did not grow in experience since his last game and actually hindered town this game, the town lynched him.

It might've sucked when it happened, but we can still use what we learned from WIR (What to do, what not to do). But the situation is incredibly interesting. I can't say I would ever play a game going like this (Self hammer and nokill!). I will count my blessings and continue working towards the town winning condition.

[AwesomePoe]

Actually Haylen, the only thing that really bugged me about you post wise was that bit following your lynch -1 vote of WIR. Also you have been lurking, and while lurking you have been paying attention to other games while ignoring this one... so yeah, there's some nagging things, but you aren't at the top of my suspicions.

I think AwesomePoe is actually the most likely scum. Hurristat's recent posts have give me pause, but he would be my next suspect. Then it would probably be Deer, Haylen and Nocmen in no paticular order. (Nocmen's attack of me 271 in particular was just odd. Twitches me with a thought of possible buddying to Haylen.)

That leaves StefanB and Ghostlin, who strike me as town.

Vote: AwesomePoe

(L-1)

Oh hey could you remind me why you're voting me? I don't see your case against me.

[Zachrulez]

Read and address 262.

Who do you think is most likely scum on the WIR wagon?

[AwesomePoe]

Looking at their ISOs they both seemed to flake in the same manner. I don't see what you're apparently seeing as differences in their in game activity. It looks indistinguishable to me.

Why are you interested in who the doctor is?

To me that looks like a newbie who's improving through the events of the game. Newbie town in fact.

Agree that this is scummy, but see above, you're openly speculating about who the doctor is.

You’re putting a L-1 vote based on 8 sentences? That’s really scummy. This is not enough to put someone at L-1, because it is not a case. The only reason you’re voting for me is because I notice that there was a doctor in the game.

The first point is dealing with the fact that your position was feeling really scummy because of how the last person lurker first day, voted and then left. The second is stating for fact that we have a doctor. Who cares who? Nobody is going to claim doctor on the off chance of a lynch, and the doctor wouldn’t stick his neck out to be night killed.

[Zachrulez]

The cry of those that believe writing text walls is pro-town. You don't have a case so your points shouldn't be listened to/are scummy!

If you can't see how openly pointing out a doctor read is scummy, there's no hope for you.

Comparing indistinguishable lurkers and trying to give them different reads is scummy as well, like you're trying to conjure up something that isn't there.

I don't need to come up with 6 paragraphs of crap when those 2 points are going to be the strongest points and the rest of it is just going to be useless padding. Not everything a player posts is scummy. It all comes down to finding one or two things that stand out, and those few things that stand out the most stand out with your posts.

[AwesomePoe]

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

[Zachrulez]

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

There's no logical proof in a mafia game. (Not in terms of proving someone scum through argument anyway.) The only proof you're likely to ever see is setup confirmation and sane cop results, but for everything else, the only thing that's proof is a lynch flip.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

If these lurkers were still in the game, providing no content and posting just enough to stay in the game, I'd say your suspicion has merit. But these players flaked, and as such, their inactivity was pretty null.

The content of the posts on the other hand is another matter, but I don't really see anything that distinguishes them from each other.

What sets them apart from say... Deer, who is still as of this post in the game but not active?

[AwesomePoe]

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

There's no logical proof in a mafia game. (Not in terms of proving someone scum through argument anyway.) The only proof you're likely to ever see is setup confirmation and sane cop results, but for everything else, the only thing that's proof is a lynch flip.

You are saying there are no knowns in mafia. That even the logic you use to vote me is nothing but dust in a vaccum? You can’t say that when you are posting in a board designed for long drawn out arguments, while posting your own arguments. Hopping on a wagon is nothing, but providing input to the wagon is much different. You just entered the game, but haven’t even stretch your legs before rushing into an L-1 vote. You aren’t searching for information or trying to figure out the landscape. This vote is scum because it does nothing to further information gathering. You just pop in and say AP is scum.

Look at your counter-part, Nocman, he at least tries to engage people in question before voting. You have jumped on the wagon with no merit to be there.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

If these lurkers were still in the game, providing no content and posting just enough to stay in the game, I'd say your suspicion has merit. But these players flaked, and as such, their inactivity was pretty null.

What sets them apart from say... Deer, who is still as of this post in the game but not active?

Ask him. I’m not his mouth. If you find his lurking scummy vote him. You say that lurking at this point in time is scummy, but your vote is somewhere else. You chose the popular wagon, so that the lynch of the day could come quicker.

[Zachrulez]

Wait....are you saying that if it came down to a deadline, you'd lynch deer first above anyone else? That comment doesnt make sense to me, especially looking in the light of other lurking that has happened so far.

I'm staying it has yet to come down to either deer or somebody else. No wagon has been put on Deer to compete with the other wagons. It would be simple to lynch Deer in the next few days for ridiculous lurking. If he continues to be unproductive to town, somebody will take offense vote him and try to start a wagon. Hasn't happened yet because the town has put its wagons elsewhere. Deer continues to be an issue we have put off.

I knew there was something else I wanted to point out.

This shows you noting and talking about Deer's lurking and foreshadowing an expected behavior of adding pressure to him should a wagon form, which shows a willingness to act on viability over one's belief on one's own suspicions. You don't really take a firm position of your own on deer, you basically leave it to others to decide whether to deal with him today, whether to wagon him or not. Your own position on Deer relative to other players you've been talking about isn't something that's clear to me, and is something that bothers me.

[Zachrulez]

Ask him. I’m not his mouth. If you find his lurking scummy vote him.

You say that lurking at this point in time is scummy

, but your vote is somewhere else. You chose the popular wagon, so that the lynch of the day could come quicker.

Bolded is a misrepresentation of what I actually said, I'll get more into that when you give a firm stance on Deer.

[Zachrulez]

Awesome Poe is really dipping down on my town list right into where my scummy people usually sit :< I think the case against me with regards to the self-hammering of WIR was made using poor logic that lacks town motive and was very opportunistic. I will certainly look into your case against him, further, Stefan.

At this moment in time, I am inclined to believe that AP is more likely to be town than scum, I can't really see a newbie-scum analysing vote counts throughout Day One in order to try and trap people. Hmm just noticed him mention a difference in Hurri's play, I'm going to look into that a bit more tomorrow - if it's there, I'm probably not likely to notice it at this time in the morning.

Personally I don't think analyzing vote counts makes someone more likely to be town, I only need to point you to your large theme that you ran recently where I blended easily into the town for several days basing my suspicions on nothing more than vote count analysis.

Is that your only reason for thinking him town after the first quote? What dipped him in your town list to begin with?

[hurristat]

Hurristat: Sorry for the AtE think, was an overreaction. Happy to hear that you will try. I will leave my vote on AP as long as I think he is scum and there is no need to chance (Deadline for example)

What I find is interesting here is that I said that I didn't think it was AtE, but as soon as Haylen comes on and says "it wasn't AtE," you recant your opinion...

What I and some others don't like about your play is that you seem to be afraid to do something and don't really make choices. You are very passive. This is scummy because scum tryes to hide. Be more active (That doesn't mean posting more, but means try to get a read on thinks, ask questions, say your own opinion...) How many posts did it need to get you to say witch of my points about AP were in your opinion bad. Definitly to much.

I don't really see how I'm being passive or "afraid to do something" -- I was the only one really to pursue you (maybe because everyone else thought you were town), and I haven't been submissive or afraid to share my thoughts -- maybe I haven't commented on all of the topics, but at this point, most of what is going on is just question/answer, and I should allow people to answer questions directed to them. And I think the length of our discussion about AP was more a function of bad communication rather weak opinions on my side.

I will count my blessings and continue working towards the town winning condition.

How is this any less doc-fishing than what I said?

You’re putting a L-1 vote based on 8 sentences?

This sentence was the only thing that really stuck out in the debate between Zachrulez and AP -- I don't think the "clause count" is a valid defense -- if you can't come up with any other reasons why the opposite person is wrong, then you're just saying "it's wrong because I want it to be." If their argument is wrong or vague, just say that. But saying "it's not long enough" is not valid.

Personally I don't think analyzing vote counts makes someone more likely to be town

In other forum-based games I've used vote analyses as mafia to get town lynched, but I've also used it as a town to get mafia lynched. I say it's a null read.

[hurristat]

grr vbs... Y U NO FORMAT CORRECTLY?

[Zachrulez]

grr vbs... Y U NO FORMAT CORRECTLY?

You have to put quotation marks around the names.

I agree that analyzing vote counts is null. I didn't actually say it was scummy, but the omission following my assertion that it wasn't a towntell could have been taken that way, that wasn't my intention.

[GLaDOS]

Day Two Vote Count #4

4 AwesomePoe (StefanB, Ghostlin, hurristat, Zachrulez)
3 hurristat (Deer, Nocmen, AwesomePoe)
1 Zachrulez (Haylen)

With

8

alive it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is February 11 at 8:30 PM CST.

Not Voting – 0 – Nobody

Mod Note: Deer has been prodded.

Edit #1

: Haylen's vote moves from Nocmen to Zachrulez.

[AwesomePoe]

mod, Haylen voted Zach.

[StefanB]

Okay, Hurristat you know that saying that somethink isn't somethink isn't the greatest argument, will probably chance an opinion.
The post that is most important for me was not Haylens post, it was 269, where you told me what you meant with your sentence and that I misunderstood you.
I have naturell a different opinion on our interaction on day 2. If you persue me what have you accuse me of concrete, besides some overreaction? Sorry if I got the opinion from you, but really I just don't get your case on me.
You are right of course that AP was docfishing, the custummeexplanation makes seens.
My main problem with your post are that some are okay and make sense (as townie) and some make me "What is that guy doing??????"

AwesomePoe:

A Back to the Futurerefference is cool, but as deffence no. Thats all your defence?

Haylen: What the ....? Thats all? Zach did question you, were did he say that you are scum? That's pretty much in OMGOS theretory, (even stronger because Zach wasn't votting for you) and puh thats all. And sorry meta is somethink that I know much as newbie but someones meta of you is so strong that he comes in a game and knows imidiatly your role? Thats somethink I have difficulties to believe.

AP-DOCPOST:

Ghostlin who was the most hands off player day one has changed his non-aggressive status. He is more determined about his voting strategy to the point that he has the next few days already planned for. Being the most town I half excepted him to be killed during the night. Either he protected himself or the doctor protected him, because I am not convinced that the mafia no killed. This may explain his more aggressive play needing a plan against the mafia

[Nocmen]

Quotes please. I can't find what you're talking about.

Bolded parts that Zach pointed out from AP:

People whose play have changed to adapt to day two:

The change of behavior after day one shows interesting changes day two:

Ghostlin who was the most hands off player day one has changed his non-aggressive status. He is more determined about his voting strategy to the point that he has the next few days already planned for. Being the most town I half excepted him to be killed during the night. Either he protected himself or the doctor protected him, because I am not convinced that the mafia no killed. This may explain his more aggressive play needing a plan against the mafia.

As for StephB, he is only slightly likely to be scum. Yes his voting pattern was iffy, but when it was pointed out, he was able to defend his voting. He behaved more like town than scum. His vote day two has been more stable. During day one, he did not have a good read on who was the best candidate for scum. Day two he has a clear understanding of who he should be pressuring and voting. This may be explained by the WIR self-hammer. Before then WIR looked scummier than me so that’s how he voted. Now I have her whole attention because I look scummy and questioned his votes.

People whose play has not changed to day two:

I am not convinced that scum nokilled during the night. hurri’s comment, which was first, tells me he would have been watching the thread pretty closely during the night and would have an idea when the night would be over. That coupled with his doctor comment, leads me to believe his post was fishing for the doctor. That and his behavior and vote have not changed much day two. There is the steady trend of more activity which has not been broken, and his vote has still been on the most scum player, me. hurri seems the most undisturbed by how the night went, and reacts more to the nokill than the WIR lynch.

Haylen has voted for the nikit position lurker, but has not done much else. I only lump her with hurri because I haven’t seem a definite change in play yet.

Deer has continued to be nearly invisible.

You're using short hand logic for things that must be spelled out. It's important, and really what this board was built for, to have to go through the work of logical proofs for you suspicions and votes. Otherwise this would be a very different board, akin to IM Mafia. Having few points and not backing them up, leaves them open and vulnerable. Scum thrive on vague arguments and will twist their words to mean what they need to.

Reading lurkers is something you can do. What you try to do is determine whether a player's lurking is benefiting mafia or hindering town investigation. If the lurking behavior is hindering town, it maybe a good idea to lynch, otherwise mafia could just lurk through unfriendly times avoiding town scrutiny. I have unlearned that even the lack of behavior is still behavior.

Zach brought this up in his post, but I've said it before, what do you think was different between nik's and chk's play before they got replaced?

I'm tempted on the possibility of a hammer, but I want to definitely hear from Deer before day ends, not have an abrupt close to day like previously.

grr vbs... Y U NO FORMAT CORRECTLY?

Add quotes around the player's name when you quote them.

Also to hurri @ 291: You say you've pursued Stefan a bit. Do you think his vote pattern D1 was too open or wishy-washy?

[Ghostlin]

I will count my blessings and continue working towards the town winning condition.

How is this any less doc-fishing than what I said?

It's not. That's why there are four votes on him. I still suspect you, because we had to practically drag you out into the light to get you to post, but AP's more

actively

suspicious.

Mod Edit: Quote tag fixed.

[Ghostlin]

Mod, can I can get an active fix for that?