Open 278: Empking's Five Player
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Stefunny wrote:I agree with the logic of a D1 no-lynch, butsince it was the first thing brought up obviously all scum has to do is agree. Of course a lynch would benefit them more, but now they are just along for the ride till the end of day 1. How do we gain any suspicions if there is not people getting on and off wagons and pushing for a lynch? Who would be willing to cast a vote (for us to analyze and over analyze) if we all just agree on a no-lynch. Yes, a no-lynch is better but I wish we had had some discussion before somebody pointed it out.FOS: Stefunny
It looks like you know I'm town, since I brought it up first and you're saying that scum are going to agree.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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I still think we should play it like a normal day (FOS'ing our top scum candidates and everything), then no-lynch once discussion has stalled and everyone has solid opinions.Cthulhu wrote:
How do you plan to get a good idea of suspicions?bvoigt wrote:Not for a while. I think we should all have a good idea of our suspicions at the start of D2.
I guess a no lynch would be a good idea but professing it in the first post doesn't seem to be conducive to helping the town.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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The bolded implies that I brought it up, and scum are going to agree. At least to me, it seems that you know I'm town.Stefunny wrote:
Funny, how does it appear that I know you are town? For all I know you are scum and just trying to appear town. I just think it was silly to bring it up before anybody had a chance to begin discussion.bvoigt wrote:Stefunny wrote:I agree with the logic of a D1 no-lynch, butsince it was the first thing brought up obviously all scum has to do is agree. Of course a lynch would benefit them more, but now they are just along for the ride till the end of day 1. How do we gain any suspicions if there is not people getting on and off wagons and pushing for a lynch? Who would be willing to cast a vote (for us to analyze and over analyze) if we all just agree on a no-lynch. Yes, a no-lynch is better but I wish we had had some discussion before somebody pointed it out.FOS: Stefunny
It looks like you know I'm town, since I brought it up first and you're saying that scum are going to agree.
As Cthulu said, why are you backpedaling so quickly?bv310 wrote:I meant instead of voting we vote for the investigation. In retrospect, it's not actually that great an idea.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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You're right about this...Stefunny is probably town. Brokenscraps also looks town so far, so by process of elimination, the scumteam is Cthulhu/bv310.brokenscraps wrote:
Stefunny didn't seem to realize that mafia have even night kills which seems like something mafia would know. I think she is probably town because of this.Stefunny wrote:I've never played in a game where a No-lynch was even considered D1. When I count out deaths I count 2 a day, so I was sitting there eating lunch reading the thread on my phone and all I could think was in 2 days 4 will be dead, how does that make sense? Duh, no-lynch, that's how.
UnFOS: Stefunny
bv310 hasn't done anything overly scummy, but I still don't like that he was so quick to change his mind when Cthulhu questioned him.
Cthulhu's posts seem to be focusing on defending himself and asking meaningless (not truly meaningless, just non-scumhunting related) questions rather than scumhunting. Also:
You weren't portraying his actions as scummy, yet you though it was scummy to backpedal so quickly? And as for the last sentence, the point is that you, if town, know that you are town. If you would rethink your own actions as town, why would you call someone scummy for rethinking?Cthulhu wrote:If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.
CSI: Cthulhu-
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bvoigt
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Eh, I guess you're right on this point. ISO makes posts such as #25 look much worse than they are.Cthulhu wrote:Your first point is just silly. My last post was solely in defence of myself but the others have been okay; you even acknowledge that my questioning of bv310 was useful. You need to read my posts more carefully and stop misrepresenting them.
At one point, you said, "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy." In other words, you didn't think anything he did was scummy. But now you're saying that his backpedaling was scummy. So why can't you keep your story straight?Cthulhu wrote:I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things.
You were going to make a random vote, but decided it against it because it would be a poor strategic decision regardless of alignment. bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind, just like it would have been anti-town to random vote. So yeah, I do think these two examples of rethinking boil down to the same thing.Cthulhu wrote:I can see that your last point has a slight degree of merit however I think comparing my actions with bv310's isn't credible because they are too different. My rethinking was planning to make a random vote and then looking back at the set up and rules, this is because it is convention for starting a game and I would do that irrespective of my role. bv310's action is different because he backpedalled so quickly, but when the idea was shown to be good with the statistics, he was on side again. This could be seen as flippant and oppurtunistic. The actions are too differnet for a comparison between them to be valid. Your vague assertion that all actions that constitute rethinking are the same and therefore should be treated as either town or scum actions is peculiar. I don't really understand it.
I'm just treating this as a regular page 2 vote...it's not like I can't change it if new information comes up.Cthulhu wrote:Overall I'd say your case is fairly weak and that you've decided to instruct the cop to investigate me quite prematurely, we are only on the second page, is that enough to get such solid reads as yours?-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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The first quote refers to post #26, when he changed his mind without any real reason. The second quote refers to...actually, I guess he never explicitly said that he had re-changed his mind, but #33 was mainly adding to what you said in the post before it...using numbers to show why itbrokenscraps wrote:
Doesn't seem right considering you also claim:bvoigt wrote:bv310 hasn't done anything overly scummy, but I still don't like that he was so quick to change his mind when Cthulhu questioned him.
You think he changed his mind for pro-town strategy ("doing this would be bad for town") rather than pro-scum strategy ("pushing this would look bad on me"), you think doing anything else would've been anti-town, yet you find it scummy (not "overly" but you do call him as part of a scum-team)?bvoigt wrote:bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind
unCSI: Cthulhu
CSI: bvoigtwasa good idea to have the cop claim. Basically, #26 was scummy; #33 was null because it would have been anti-town not to agree with your logic.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Do you have any examples of this defensiveness?Stefunny wrote:I honestly think BVoigt is probably scum. He was the first one to suggest a no-lynch and when I asked about the no lynch he seemed to get really defensive.
That's not why I FOS'ed you, though:Stefunny wrote:To the point where he seriously wanted to vote me because I thought a no-lynch suggestion was not a great idea (Granted, it was a good idea, I just was being a dolt.) It was just a quick vote that seemed sort of unfounded.
bvoigt wrote:FOS: Stefunny
It looks like you know I'm town, since I brought it up first and you're saying that scum are going to agree.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Maybe, but that's not how I interpret it.brokenscraps wrote:
Or it suggests that it wasn't pressure that made him change his mind and he actually rethought whether it was a good idea or not, just like he said?bvoigt wrote:
Not much, which makes it more odd IMO.brokenscraps wrote:Do you really consider #25 to have provided any sort of pressure on bv310?-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Total misrepresentation. There's no way that "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy" could mean "I didn't think anything he did was scummy."Cthulhu wrote:
You are misrepresenting me again. The bolded isn't true. In Post 27 I say his idea is bad (which isn't scummy), then I mention his backpedalling (which is). Then read Post 39 and Post 43 again where I've explained the same thing twice before. At no point did I mean what you said I meant in the above quote. Your attempts to twist my words and confuse the situation further is quite suspect.bvoigt wrote:
At one point, you said, "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy."Cthulhu wrote:I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things.In other words, you didn't think anything he did was scummy.But now you're saying that his backpedaling was scummy. So why can't you keep your story straight?
Then why did you decide against random voting?Cthulhu wrote:
Your case is ridiculous. I didn't decide against random voting because of it's strategic weakness, I didn't do it because of your post; had you not made it obvious that a no lynch was the way to go, I would not have noticed until afterwards. This is another example of misrepresentation.bvoigt wrote:You were going to make a random vote, but decided it against it because it would be a poor strategic decision regardless of alignment. bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind, just like it would have been anti-town to random vote. So yeah, I do think these two examples of rethinking boil down to the same thing.
First of all,Cthulhu wrote:I don't get how it would be anti town not to change his mind, his idea was fundamentally a good one, so to stick with it would have been good. If your case rests on this then it is terrible.youquestioned his idea. And I was referring to when he re-changed his mind, and decided that it was a good idea after all. (Sorry, I should have made that more clear.)
I feel like this sentence is OMGUS, plain and simple. Why is it scummy for me to push a case on you?Cthulhu wrote:It's very scummy that you should be pushing this case so hard (and voting for the cop to investigate me), especially as this case was first raised by brokenscraps in Post 36.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Oh, I think I finally get what you're saying.Cthulhu wrote:I agree, it is total misrepresentation again. You have taken it out of context; read Post 39. If you isolate a quote like that and then paraphrase it, so it looks like it has a different meaning, it's called misrepresentation. I have stated several times that I thought bv310's backpedalling was scummy, therefore your unnecessary paraphrase is incorrect and misrepresenting what I said. What the quote actually refers to is post 25 where I ask bv310 about his idea, the second part of the sentence (which you conveniently failed to quote) refers to post 27, where I do portray his actions as scummy. I admit that my sentence was poorly structured.
Cthulhu wrote:However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad.
These two look like a contradiction at first...but I guess it makes sense if they're referring to 2 different posts.Cthulhu wrote:It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly.
Sorry, I misread that. But it sounds like changing your mindCthulhu wrote:
The answer is in the quote. I didn't do it because you posted and made it clear that a no lynch was the best stratergy. Had I been the first to post I would have random voted then looked at the set up.bvoigt wrote:
Then why did you decide against random voting?Cthulhu wrote:Your case is ridiculous. I didn't decide against random voting because of it's strategic weakness, I didn't do it because of your post; had you not made it obvious that a no lynch was the way to go, I would not have noticed until afterwards. This is another example of misrepresentation.wasa strategic decision, just like bv310's changing his mind. (For those who have forgotten the original point, it was: "If you would rethink your own actions as town, why would you call someone scummy for rethinking?" BTW, this is my last quote wall for a while.)
I think it helps the town more to make a somewhat weak case than it does to focus on defending yourself and do no scumhunting at all.Cthulhu wrote:
It isn't, you are welcome to push a case on me, but it becomes scummy when your case is so weak that it's a waste of time.bvoigt wrote:I feel like this sentence is OMGUS, plain and simple. Why is it scummy for me to push a case on you?-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Unless someone scumslips badly, any case on page 3 will be weak. I think I've given a fair amount of evidence for this point in the game.Cthulhu wrote:
I don't know about that. However, you admit that your case on me is weak, but I am still your top suspect? To justify your 'cop vote' on me, would you mind backing it up with some evidence?bvoigt wrote:I think it helps the town more to make a somewhat weak case than it does to focus on defending yourself and do no scumhunting at all.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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A weak vote is better than a vote with no case behind it at all. As for the last sentence: feel free to ISO me.Cthulhu wrote:
If you concede that your case is weak, and I haven't made a bad scumslip then why are you willing to waste an investigation on me, and end the day now. If you've given a fair amount of evidence, you won't mind quoting it.bvoigt wrote:Unless someone scumslips badly, any case on page 3 will be weak. I think I've given a fair amount of evidence for this point in the game.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Naturally, since I'd prefer to get a guilty result, I'd rather have bv310 investigated. He could be town, of course, but IknowI'm town.
From your perspective, brokenscraps, it also might be a better choice because bv310 hasn't posted as much as me. For that reason, I think he'd be more difficult to read.-
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bvoigt
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You are still my top suspect, but the choice for investigation seems to be between me and bv310. I don't suspect Stefunny because she wasn't aware that scum could only kill on even nights.Cthulhu wrote:
In post 69, you said I was your top suspect, with bv310 your neutral suspect. Why are you now wanting your neutral suspect to be investigated? Is it an admission that your case on me was rubbish? Why didn't you suspect Stefunny when both bv310 and Stefunny have been equally as apathetic?bvoigt wrote:Naturally, since I'd prefer to get a guilty result, I'd rather have bv310 investigated. He could be town, of course, but I know I'm town.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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At least in my experience, once someone "town-slips," it's a bad idea to go back on that read.Cthulhu wrote:
Your first point is sort of Meh. On your second point, is that all it takes to convince you? You unconditionally think she's town because of one thing? Sounds a bit convenient.bvoigt wrote:You are still my top suspect, but the choice for investigation seems to be between me and bv310. I don't suspect Stefunny because she wasn't aware that scum could only kill on even nights.-
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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bvoigt
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bvoigt Mafia Scum
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Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of this game either. No one did anything wrong...it was well modded and everything, but just didn't hold my interest. I'm not sure if that was a fault of the setup or just caused by inactivity.
After arguing with Cthulhu for much of Day 1, I really didn't think he was going to be lynched. Nice job, bv310.
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