Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So Weapons, was your RVS vote a joke, or was it a trap? You keep insisting that it was a joke, but now you keep insisting that you knew scum was going to jump on it, and so you were waiting for it. You can't say it was both, because one undermines the other. And yes, I find contradictions scummy, though what you did wasn't a full blown scummy contradiction. I'm much more interested in you saying that this was a joking vote (and reinforcing it in post 50), and you saying that this was a scum trap, which you reinforced in 48, and VERY explicitly in post 58, using the following wording:

It was both? There is no trap without the cover. Trap setting 101.

It was a contradiction, but taking all contradictions as scumtells (note the context and language there was

very purposeful

) is incredibly one-dimensional and an easy opportunistic route for scum to cast suspicion on people.

Bold emphasis was mine. So it was joking, but it was very purposeful? No, this is a blatant contradiction, obviously not on purpose, and yes this one is absolutely scummy. You're trying to get the benefit of having done something pro town, but at the same time squirming your way out of having done something scummy. You can't have it both ways.

You misrepresent. The bolded part is refers not to the purpose of the post but the language of the post.

@Everyone: when you first read my first post, did you think it was not clearly tongue-in-cheek?

I'm a bit surprised that Implosion's vote on mongoose for distancing wasn't a joke.

I am not buying WOMC's "trap" argument, and I think

I would also call silavor scum, but his last point was quite good about implosion/mb53.

is ridiculous, since all silavor did was explain why implosion accused mongoose of distancing.

That was me not reading the thread correctly. Whoops.

On WoMC--I don't have a ton to add to everyone else's suspicions, except to say that contradictions so early in the game are just as apt to be jumped on by town who have little hard information to go on as they are by scum looking to frame someone, so its effectiveness as a trap seems dubious at best. So I'm not giving much credence to WoMC's defense so far.

Again, starting point. Also, the above bolded question.

Agreeing with sentiments on #64.

Snow day

Totally missed my area. All we got were 70 mph winds.

@WoMC

: please provide a completed game (if possible) in which you "set a trap" as town, similarly to how you did here, since you say it's a part of your meta.

http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopi ... 54#1625054

and more unintentionally and more effectively later in the game as well.

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

Seriously now, WMC is gathering quite a few votes rather quickly. I don't like this last post by over9000 so much. I mean, I know the ideas behind a WMC wagon have already been beaten to death, but I just generally dislike a ditto vote that contributes nothing. There's no question to WMC, and there's no attempt to explore any other avenues. WMC is certainly not the only potential scum suspect right now, and there's plenty of daylight left, so this just looks like coasting.

On the topic, I really do think, as bizarre as it is, that WMC was trying to lay some sort of trap. What else could his "you missed the point" post mean? (not a rhetorical question--this is really bothering me). I can't tell whether this is a scummy move or a poorly conceived, town-motivated one. I'm just as interested as Implosion to see an instance of this being at all effective.

Mongoose's 64 is rather terrible, and I agree with Implosion's assessment. What is really interesting about Mongoose's post is that he was rattled enough by this distancing accusation that he bothered to make a second joke vote to rectify the situation (which really shouldn't be perceived as a "situation" in the first place). Nervous scum?

Now all in this post we have fluff, stating the obvious, saying the same thing in different words, repeating oneself almost exactly, fence-sitting, and an acceptable last paragraph. Could join a wagon here as well.

[Nexus]

Votecount the Second:

WeaponsofMassConstruction (4): ICEninja, silavor, _over9000, q21
Mongoose (2): Darth Yoshi, implosion
_over9000 (1): mb53
q21 (1): mongoose
ICEninja (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Silavor (1): Zdenek

Not voting: neil1113, nameless, neko2086

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 22nd February at 12pm GMT.

As ever, if there are any problems, post in thread or PM me.

Putting it on a new page.

[mongoose]

UNVOTE: I have nothing on q21. The reason I didn't unvote and revote again was because it gets confusing for the mod, for me, and for the players as to who I voted. As such I let it be. I considered unvoting and revoting in a follow up post, but by then my parents had kicked me off the computer so I left it. I really don't see what is wrong with a joke at all.

[mongoose]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: VOTE: WOMC[/unvote]

[mongoose]

*groan*

VOTE: WoMC

[mb53]

town:
mb

leaning town:
q21
implosion
neko
Yoshi
Zdenek

neutral for now:
neil
silavor
ICE
Mongoose

leaning scum:
WoMC
Nameless

scum:
over9000

Discuss.

Mine ^

@Everyone: when you first read my first post, did you think it was not clearly tongue-in-cheek?

Sorry, I'm not sure what that means.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

@Everyone: when you first read my first post, did you think it was not clearly tongue-in-cheek?

Sorry, I'm not sure what that means.

What part are you having trouble with?

[ICEninja]

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

I've been so excited the past few days, I wouldn't be surprised if my leaping for joy has caused some kind of meteorological disturbance. And thank you, I gave the interview of a lifetime to get it.

Alright, I wasn't feeling too harshly about Mongoose simply based on 64, but after he got a lot of people suspecting him, he then goes and takes his vote off Q21 without comment, save that he had no reason to be voting him at all, and then put his vote on Weapons right after, as an "oops I forgot". That clearly states to me that his main purpose of posting was to unvote, and that voting was a secondary purpose. Having voting as a secondary purpose reads to me as doing so for appearance purposes and not because of genuine suspicion.

This is compounded by how he had literally

nothing

to add to the case against Weapons. This is really bad.

Regarding implosion's list, I feel like his positioning of nameless is extremely suspect. Why did you put nameless down as one of the scummiest? I can't find anything suspicious that he's done, and I can't find anything besides a random vote against him in anything you've said. You seemed to arbitrarily put him down there. Can you explain what he has done that you find scummy? Your stance against mongoose is fully justified and I agree with it, but like nameless, you haven't said anything about over9000.

mb, likewise, has some strange points in his list. Just 3 ISO posts previous, he votes implosion. He has said nothing about implosion since, and now rates him as one of his better town reads. I would definitely like to hear some justification for this. Exactly like implosion, you've put Nameless as one of the scummiest players without saying anything about him at all. I definitely feel like there is a bit of a connection between you two.

mb's vote for implosion earlier could easily be distancing, and they're both attacking the same players, and haven't given reasons for finding some of said players scummy. I don't like this at all.

What part are you having trouble with?

The part I am having trouble with is that your post seemed very quite tongue-in-cheek. Contradiction aside, I felt that it was far too tongue-in-cheek to be trying to actually use it as legitimate scum hunting and to place a vote over.

All the same, I actually agree with Weapon's analysis of neko. I do, however, agree with what most of neko is saying so I don't particularly find him scummy for it. Perhaps it isn't the best scum hunting, but he isn't looking as bad as Weapons or Mongoose.

[mb53]

@Everyone: when you first read my first post, did you think it was not clearly tongue-in-cheek?

Sorry, I'm not sure what that means.

What part are you having trouble with?

I simply don't know what toungue-in-cheek means =P

mb, likewise, has some strange points in his list. Just 3 ISO posts previous, he votes implosion. He has said nothing about implosion since, and now rates him as one of his better town reads. I would definitely like to hear some justification for this. Exactly like implosion, you've put Nameless as one of the scummiest players without saying anything about him at all. I definitely feel like there is a bit of a connection between you two.

For implosion, my original vote was half RVS and half real. It was still really early, and I didn't have much to go on, so that was the half RVS part. The other reason was somewhat real, even though ordering everyone else around could be a scum or null tell. Since then, I think he has been rather pro-town.

For nameless, I don't like how he isn't really willing to answer questions. Even if you explained yourself, explain yourself again if asked to. Why not? Don't be difficult.

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts [...]

There is no need for you to be jumping in and defending another player at this point. Not liking this.[/quote]

[mb53]

EBWOP for the last quote:

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts [...]

There is no need for you to be jumping in and defending another player at this point. Not liking this.

[neko2086]

WMC, yes I did repeat myself somewhat, but it's because nobody seems to have picked up on what I said the first time. It's important because what people are perceiving as uberscummy on your part seems to me to be possibly just a poorly conceived idea, which is not necessarily scummy. So yes, I am on the fence about you. I'm sorry I don't have black and white reads on page 4.

Now, what exactly in my post is fluff, and what is stating the obvious? Are you happy with 9000's vote, for instance? I mean, you just quote my entire post and then make broad generalizations about it with no examples, then say you could jump on a wagon of me.

Ice, if you agree with most of what I said, in what way do you also agree with WMC's assessment. What is wrong with my scum-hunting?

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice. For the record, I'm looking mainly at neil, mongoose, and 9000.

[neil1113]

... Wow. You guys are overwhelming. I'm keeping up with everything, but I unfortunately can't really put anything in to add. When the size gets smaller, I think I'll be able to help more.

Also, great Neko. You just posted and now it looks as though I'm posting just because my name was thrown out. This is NOT how it was. And no, I won't give a list of scum and town reads. Gives scum a chance to pick off who their next victim is. So thanks, but no thanks.

[mb53]

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice.

Yes, that will be the only list I shall be posting, as it does give scum an idea of who to target/not to target. I don't think it is very harmful 3-4 pages in though, as it is initial thought, and peoples views can change a lot through out the day.

[neko2086]

Wow, really?

vote: Neil

. I had 2 questions for you. So are you sure you don't have anything to add? And, if you're not posting just because your name came up, then why? You really didn't contribute anythin here.

By the way, I'm not saying everyone needs to post their top scum suspects right now, just that it's really not a good idea to be drawing a complete list of town and scum reads for the reason Neil just mentioned.

[ICEninja]

Ice, if you agree with most of what I said, in what way do you also agree with WMC's assessment.

If you say the same thing twice, that doesn't mean I can't agree with it. I feel like you're rehashing some things which, while isn't inherently scummy, can lead to a trend of not presenting new information is. Weapons isn't wrong about what he said referring to your previous post, but that doesn't mean I feel like you aren't contributing.

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice.

I, as well, will not be putting forth a comprehensive list. Those are meant for replacements and games in deadlocks. I shouldn't even need to point out a list of who I feel is scummy at the moment, as anyone who has read through my posts should have a good idea of who I suspect.

Neil, I know you aren't posting just because your name was thrown out, because you ninja'd me. However, he was absolutely right to call you out. You had only made a single post that contributed only a slight analysis of implosion. Now you just seem to be coming in to say "hi, I'm not posting. Sorry."

You don't have anything to add? What do you think about the case against Weapons? How do you feel about the wagon that built on Weapons? What did you think when reading the town to scum lists, beyond the obvious? Which players, scummy or not, need more attention right now? I don't see how it is even possible to not have some opinions to add here.

[implosion]

Regarding implosion's list, I feel like his positioning of nameless is extremely suspect. Why did you put nameless down as one of the scummiest? I can't find anything suspicious that he's done, and I can't find anything besides a random vote against him in anything you've said. You seemed to arbitrarily put him down there. Can you explain what he has done that you find scummy? Your stance against mongoose is fully justified and I agree with it, but like nameless, you haven't said anything about over9000.

Hm. I just reread Nameless and I'm honestly not sure why I had him in the scum category. He goes to null. It might have been residual from the RVS vote or something... I'm honestly not sure why I had him there. As for _Over9000, His ISO 2 seems overly cautious and his ISO 3 seems overly unnecessary. mb's explained him.

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice.

Yes, that will be the only list I shall be posting, as it does give scum an idea of who to target/not to target. I don't think it is very harmful 3-4 pages in though, as it is initial thought, and peoples views can change a lot through out the day.

I also did realize this, and was thinking essentially what you said in this post.

[mb53]

2 things.

1. neil=bad
2. Loving how fast this game is moving.

[neil1113]

ahaha I love how many people jumped on me. I didn't realize it'd offend so many people. Ice I'll be responding to you. Neko, I know you have questions. I don't see the importance to the town by answering them, and unless it benefits the town I have no desire to talk about irrelevant subjects. If you'd like to know information on the game of Mafia itself, I can refer you to a Wikipage for it if you'd like?

[neil1113]

You don't have anything to add? What do you think about the case against Weapons? How do you feel about the wagon that built on Weapons? What did you think when reading the town to scum lists, beyond the obvious? Which players, scummy or not, need more attention right now? I don't see how it is even possible to not have some opinions to add here.

I do have a bit to add. I don't like the case on Weapons, and I'm almost confident there is scum on the wagon. When it comes to reading the lists people are putting, I think it's absolutely ignorant to the scum in the game. Because I don't like them, I normally don't read them. Besides, I don't like to be influenced by other peoples readings when it comes to my own. The player I'd say needs more attention right now, that I think is kind of slipping under the rug is Neko for his questions asking. He seems to be trying to appear to be obvious town, so why would people question him? WIFOM, I admit, but I wouldn't be surprised if he indeed has something to hide.

[Nameless]

All I asked was what exactly about it is bothering you—as in, for instance, was there anything in particular that caught your attention? Or is it just that you are wary in general of people who write lengthy posts, or is it because it’s Ninja who is making lengthier posts? Asking for clarification and explanation doesn’t constitute defending—you just jumping in and shouting out that I’m defending Ninja doesn’t make it so.

Three responses to this:
* The exact thing that was bothering me was that two of ICEninja's posts appeared on my initial read to add nothing more than verbose agreement with what had already been stated. That would be scummy if it continued, so I decided to keep an eye on it just in case. I stated this quite clearly in my original post, so I'm not sure where you're getting your ambiguity from. In any case, ICEninja's responses since have been reasonable so I no longer consider it an issue.
* You are correct, asking for clarification does not constitute defending. However, in #43 you not only asked for clarification but also, without prompting, offered an explanation for ICEninja's behavior. (In part: "But when you don't have a lot to go on in just page 2, sometimes you have to zero in on the little things".) This

is

defending.
* Gah, my choice of quote selection really sucked in #52. >_>

Alright, time for some general impressions.

WeaponsofMassConstruction - There is far, far too much noise over a stupid opening trap. I'm inclined to think he's town, but the significance is being exaggerated either way. If his wagon goes any further without better justification I'll be calling scum shenanigans and anaylysing further.

Mongoose / q21 / _over900 / neil1113 - All need to start making real contributions, but it's too early to call any of them scum for it. (Give it 5-7 days, is my general estimate.) #64 is amateurish, but no more scum than town IMHO. That all of Neko's current suspects are among these opening lurkers (#85) reeks of scum searching for easy targets. Neko has been around these forums long enough that he should know better.

Implosion - His "semi-legitimate" vote on mongoose was a load of crap, his list of suspects without justification is a classic filler post, having a complete list of (non)suspects at all this early on seems unlikely, and changing his stance on me the moment he's challenged by ICEninja is kind of dubious.

mb53 - Read #72. Then read #80 or #91. The hypocrisy is pretty obvious, but he's made enough individual posts that it could just be his style, IDK.

(inb4OMGUS)

LAST MINUTE EDIT: Will consider neil's posts a bit later.

[Nameless]

I have now considered Neil's posts.

VOTE: neil1113

That's an attempt to literally laugh off attention, refusing to answer questions, suggesting that asking questions doesn't help the town, patronizing your accuser as a defence, discarding two players' lists as "absolutely ignorant" without reasoning, attacking a player for asking questions (WAT) and finished off with a too-townie fallacy. Did I miss anything?

[q21]

... Wow. You guys are overwhelming. I'm keeping up with everything, but I unfortunately can't really put anything in to add. When the size gets smaller, I think I'll be able to help more.

Also, great Neko. You just posted and now it looks as though I'm posting just because my name was thrown out. This is NOT how it was. And no, I won't give a list of scum and town reads. Gives scum a chance to pick off who their next victim is. So thanks, but no thanks.

So in the first paragraph you're asking for a free ride to a later stage of the game where there are less players because according to you you'll be better then? Not gonna happen.

The second paragraph doesn't sit well either. Maybe you are posting just because your name came up, maybe you aren't. Your comment here doesn't actually tell us, one way or the other. What it does do is tell us that you're afraid of appearing to be posting just because your name was mentioned, and that is scummy.



I don't like the posting of entire lists of reads that has been going on for a bit. Don't like it to the extent that I'm leaning toward suspicion of those who participated, possible scum trying to start a trend they can use to gauge the towns feeling on the game. Minor FoS for Implosion and mb.



I am amused by Nameless calling out neil for not answering questions... pots and kettles anyone?

[neil1113]

Harsh reality... To put it simple:

I'm not into this game right now. I need to refocus, but it isn't going to be happening anytime soon. Don't read too much into my posts, I'm not scum, I'm town. Lynch me if you think I'm wrong, but I'm vanilla. So it's not like I can do anything at night for you guys. Life is happening right now, and it's not helping me with this game.

[mongoose]

^ there was need to claim yet, it really didn't help anything. I dont like Neil's posting since its pretty much saying "don't mind me I'll show up later on with something useful". unfortunately, q21 summed up what i thought perfectly so no real content here.

@ice: unvoting was the main purpose of the post. We are out of RVS so there was no point in keeping the vote. I the changed it to the person who I felt was scummiest. I don't see how voting being an afterthought is scummy. Also, as for content, I would like to point out there is limited amounts of posts right now, so finding things that people haven't said is rather difficult.

I dont like how neil likes how many people jumped on him though, however it sounds like something I would say so I will let it be.

[silavor]

Warning, massive wall of quotes, not for the feint of heart!

Vote: DarthYoshi

for asking too many questions.

I'm EST.
Probably RVS. RQS requires too much thought.
I've played for like a year on various sites.

Alright, so this is the post that's supposedly some sort of scum trap

Weapons, you did something strange there. You voted Yoshi for "asking too many questions", but then you went ahead and answered them.

No shit. IIoA, as they call it?

Unvote, Vote: ICEninja

And this is the post where ICE calls you out, and you vote for him because he fell into your "trap".

Vote:Weapon

for being jumpy, defensive, using IIoA as a scumtell on page

1

, and because it's still RVS.

Now obviously I didn't intend for this to be some sort of scum-catching trap, but there is just as obvious a contradiction in it as there was in your first post.

Vote:Weapon

for being jumpy, defensive, using IIoA as a scumtell on page

1

, and because it's still RVS.

Obvious self-contradiction is obvious. (Justifying your own vote / saying it's still random.)

Oh, would you look at that, I found scum!

Vote Silavor

Nameless already pointed out the reason. He gives reasons for his vote, but then says that its an RVS vote.

Hey, 2-for-one deal! I got the entire scumteam- oh, wait, but then how is ICE scum, as well?

Obviously

we have three scum in this game! Or, more likely, we have a bunch of townies nitpicking each other's comments to bits because we're only part way through page 2, and the game's been going for less than 24 hours at this point.

WoMC: We missed the point? Please, enlighten us.

The point of my first post was half-RVS mood half-trap, which ICE has fallen for. It should've been pretty obvious I contradicted myself there, towards which scum would see the opportunity and try to cast attention to it, as ICE did. As scum, it also continues to make sense for him to push this into a wagon due to others' previously stated suspicion, so ICE is my top scum read at the moment.

This same argument can just as easily be made towards Nameless, since he also managed to get someone to hop on my wagon, Zdenek. The point is, though, unless we have three scum in the game and they would all out themselves so easily, how can we take the case against one of them as "obvscum trying to create a false case", while dropping the others as just being "town pointing out an anomaly"?

I dont like this whole discussion about whether contradictions are scummy. It seems pointless, since the contradiction was obviously a joke, it seems.

Obviously a joke, and yet WoMC is taking it seriously.

@Everyone: when you first read my first post, did you think it was not clearly tongue-in-cheek?

I took it to be just another RVS vote, but I don't see how commenting on it makes ICE scum.

I think

I would also call silavor scum, but his last point was quite good about implosion/mb53.

is ridiculous, since all silavor did was explain why implosion accused mongoose of distancing.

That was me not reading the thread correctly. Whoops.

What about it was you not reading the thread correctly? The part where you think I'm scum? The part where my point about implosion ignoring q21 makes me not scum? The whole thing?