Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[Kise]

@Nero: I'm tired of beating a dead horse but out of the players here, I only IM you, Reck and dram. Since I know I haven't spoken to dram in ages and Reck uploaded the convos, it comes down to you. I remember you signed up after me for this game and made mention of it, but I'm not sure explicitly what was talked about, though you can guess what I believe we went over. It's more than RK and shit, is what I'm getting at.

@Reck: I didn't use the word "convinced" and I clearly wasn't referring to your final role PM - I said "signups." This actually has nothing to do with reading the scum's role PMs and knowing they couldn't kill, and something else isn't matching up. If you thought I was only convinced of you reading your(?) role PM, then why was your response about SensFan getting you involved in the game? I don't understand what that has to do with you reading your(?) role unless you intentionally are referring to your role as one of the scum's.

[xRECKONERx]

Because I

never read the rules or setup or anything

. I mentioned Sens because my involvement in this game was "Hey Reck signup" "Ok Sure" and then "Hey Reck here's your role PM" which I read as "Town Lover" then didn't do anything else. What has really happened here is that you tried to forge a bullshit case on me, it fell to pieces, and now you're grasping at straws.

[Espeonage]

Oh shutup. Kise is town regardless of wether she had a convo with anyone about this game. For someone to beat a wagon that hard they had to be extremely sure. 1 for 1 is not in scums interests. The only way kise is scum is if the two of you are scum buddies and this is crafted. I'm not seeing that anymore so therefore kise is town. That doesn't mean reck is scum however.

[xRECKONERx]

Espeonage, why don't you go suck your mother's teet.

Tell me what is pro-town at all about making up a circumstance that never existed in order to paint me as scum, have me REFUTE that statement, then have him still attack me as scum DESPITE THE FACT THAT I DESTROYED HIS ENTIRE FOUNDATIONAL ARGUMENT FOR ME BEING SCUM.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Espeonage
I don't see how PO fails to remember there are no nightkills right after Grey asked how the scum could eliminate us, posted the role PMs, and said "SOMETHING'S MISSING." And I don't see why he mixes up daytalk with nightkilling in his ohnoI'mmadienow post unless he had already internalized the setup beforehand and thus thinks of them as equally obvious.

Unless he's lying.

@ Reck: Way to make anew wagon but I can't really agree with it. The tone is somewhat jovial in the first post so I am inclined to believe that most parts are joking as she said. I think you're reading a bit much into it but it's still a valid case if you interpret it that way. I'm not going to join that wagon but I'm not going to oppose.

Now to go read a couple of pages. Give me a few minutes, if I'm allowed them.

He's actually on my silavor wagon. :p They just need to claim lovers and get it over with.

AND WHY ARE YOU FENCESITTING??? How much more wishy-washy can you get on the Haylen thing??

Tone of post reads definitely jovial to me, and I think Reck's case is exaggerated crud blown way out of proportion, but I'm thinking that's just a symptom of how he plays. (Was that wishy washy on Reck?) And sez the person who made a case on silavor based on...well, really not much, but there you have it. Not seeing anything overtly town in Haylen's posts, however, so I'm happy continuing to bothering silavor.

Calling out his own lover for fencesitting is a really weird move from town. If you're town you know your lover simply doesn't feel strongly on the issue or sees the wagon as pro-town but is going to focus elsewhere. Makes more sense if it's scum trying to deflect suspicion by commenting on the matter before anyone else does.

I see nothing in Esp's posting to indicate he's town. And the phrasing below bothers me:

Mountain out of an ant hill yes but adding to the fact that your partner is obviously active lurking through the early stages of the game and you have something that looks pretty bad.

Scum are trying to find people who "look bad" whereas town are trying to find scum.

[EmpTyger]

Kise/Reckoner/Nero/implosion:

Unvote: Purple Orange

. 2 of you are going to die today. Leave us with something good.


Reckoner:
(…And let me say right now that what you’ve been posting is in no way “good”.)
Haylen, silavor, and Kise have done 3 very different things. Why have you the same over-the-top reaction to all 3?


Kise:
I’m having a really impossible time finding an innocent explanation for backpedalling in [282].


Nero Cain:
Why didn’t you vote Kise, considering?


Espeonage:

I'm not going to stick my head in the whole reck-kise-silavor thing other than to say that I most agree with recks posting (maybe not the tone) but I'm not 100% sold on either of them being scum. Kise could easily be mistaken and silavor seems to just be out of his depth.

Explain how you thought Kise “could easily be mistaken” given what he’d posted.
More importantly, why did you choose to avoid the matter if you weren’t sure about it.


Llama:
Don’t disagree with any of that, but why are you ignoring the Kise/Reckoner matter?


Antihero:
Re Thingy, I only told him to ask me any “newbie” questions in private, so as not to distract from the game. Last I heard from him, he said he was going to read up on players’ private games. I’ve tried to explain was a bad idea, at first appealing to reason, then more bluntly telling him that he’s just going to burn himself out. Honestly, I think Thingy’s in over his head. I’d like for him to contribute- in particular I want to hear why he disagreed with me about GreyIce.

[Kise]

@Reck: Your words still do not match up with the issue at hand. Irregardless of how you became involved in this game, I claimed to have known you read the scum's role PM and you didn't call me out on it back then. The purpose of me saying "KNOW" in all caps was to grab your attention, so there's no excuse to mistake that for me saying I was

convinced

>

knowing

you read the scum's role. Another interesting bit:

You didn't answer it. You said that SensFan, FTR, wanted you to join the game. What I'm asking you is why didn't you bring down the lightning and thunder the first time I threw a FOS your way and said I KNEW you were feigning ignorance?

You didn't say HOW you knew. And since this conversation never happened, why the fuck would I assume I needed to prove that we never had a conversation about this?

You didn't come swinging out of the woodworks until I specifically mentioned AIM. If you claim that you knew nothing about the game at all, then should it have mattered HOW I knew? You should have been going ape shit the moment I said something about your knowledge with this setup, but there wasn't even a follow up or curiosity from you as to where I was drawing my accusations from.

I'm not fuggin' crazy. Somebody talked to me about this game during signups and I only have 3 of you on my AIM buddy lists.

@Emp & Llama: Purp's little herp derp moment bothers me just the same as Reck. The way Reck goes after Grey over the NK issue looks too contrived and pre-planned. I went to his (Reck's) facebook page tonight and I can confirm that he made a status wall post thingy about being sick, so there's less merit in my theory that he waited 3 hours in hopes others would view his obliviousness as leaning town. On the other hand, I think it's especially telling that someone brought up Purp's comment in the queue thread to compare with her apparently not knowing that scum couldn't kill. Her post where she has the revelation that this is a nightless game comes across as the more blatantly feigned, as it was a mere minute or 2 away from her previous post where she shares Reck's "obliviousness." What I'm not understanding is what she could have been doing for that minute or 2 to realize this is nightless, when her first post gave the impression she looked over everything - including Grey's comment about scum not being able to harm anyone. I can't easily shake the idea that this was something they may have went over in their group QT, considering all of us were able to communicate pre-game with our lovers.

[Kise]

Kise:
I’m having a really impossible time finding an innocent explanation for backpedalling in [282].

He pasted our entire aim convos as of late. Uncertainty began to set in my head and I had this "lost" feeling. I looked over the time stamps to ensure he couldn't have edited anything out (and I know what that redacted comment is about) so I was left scratching my head at the time.

[Kise]

I can't easily shake the idea that this was something they may have went over in their group QT, considering all of us were able to communicate pre-game with our lovers.

Adding to this, I strongly believe all 8 scum devised some kinf of plan in their QTs, so once day 1 officially began, I immediately expected to detect a few players acting out based on whatever their other 3 partners may have come up with. Implosion and I only greeted each other during pre-game, which also adds to my belief that any other town couples had nothing to thoroughly discuss beforehand and no strategies would be in play until further in the game. If I think someone is behaving based on a pre-planned motive, I immediately view them as leaning scum. The only other thing added to my QT is my explanation of the Esp vote earlier.

[Espeonage]

@ Llama looks bad = scummy, unless you are looking to make incredibly weak first page cases.

@ Emp: Because noone here can truthfully say they have never thought they had said something when it hasn't happened. Happens to me all the time and a similar thing happened to PO earlier in this game with the whole NK thing. Why wouldn't I avoid the matter for the most part. I posted a neat opinion so everyone knows where I stood on the 'debate'. I didn't completely avoid, I just said what I felt I needed to to get my opinion accross and nothing more. Butting into debates like that just gets town sidetracked by adding more unneeded variable. I should be posting more important things like who I think is scum, which I did.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Hey, don't you go OMGUSing my baby, Esp. IGMEOY. Nobody messes with my man.

[vezokpiraka]

Do I have to read anything in the last pages?
I just see Kise and Reck fighting and Reck being right.


Can we actually do stuff instead of being stupid and accusing each other of lies?

[Baby Spice]

V/LA till Monday

After a wonder but busy first day back at school for the kiddies, including one starting, flash flooding put a foot or more of water through the area.

Cleaning and checking for damage.

[Mariyta]

I think Reck needs some more lovin or something. He's way too stressed.

I'm not sure I believe Kise blatantly lied. I've I had conversations with someone and thought it was with someone else.
UNVOTE: Kise
I need to re-read,but I really don't want to.

@Tragedy: Please get your booty in the QT. Kthxbye.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise - I read Reck's post 169 as responding fully to everything you said in 117. "I KNOW you read the role PMs during signups" -- what do you say to that other than, " dude, I didn't, my only acquaintance with this setup AT ALL until today was adding a /in to the singup thread"? So...yeah. I really don't see anything fishy there.

I also think you believed completely in what you said, too. Lying about a conversation would be...yeah, seriously,

it makes no sense

. Especially if there was the possibility of it being disproved. Which is why Esp and me thought that maybe you folks could be on the same scumteam, doing some crazy gambit...then realized that was stupid too, because a 1:1 trade early would be even stupider, and the whole thing wouldn't make the other pair clear of scum suspicion anyway. Sooo...I'm left believing you were telling the truth about the IM thing, just mixed up the recipient.

I still read Reck as genuine over the first page, but I've never actually played a game with him before, so my gut on this

is

questionable.

And you don't seem scummy.
==================
@ GreyICE...you're lurking backstage, man. Wassup with that? Things too interesting in the scum quicktopic? I iz missing your awesome scumhunting craziness.
==================

What I'm not understanding is what she could have been doing for that minute or 2 to realize this is nightless, when her first post gave the impression she looked over everything - including Grey's comment about scum not being able to harm anyone.

Again, failed to grasp the significance of Grey's until I reread the posts on that page. Which, yeah. I know sounds horrible and fabricated, but there it is. (Even if I'm scum, though, I think you still have to believe that I failed reading comprehension that day, posting what I did after Grey had already cleared up the issue).

And I don't see why he mixes up daytalk with nightkilling in his ohnoI'mmadienow post unless he had already internalized the setup beforehand and thus thinks of them as equally obvious.

Uh...I didn't? I mixed them up in my reply to Emp later in the thread. Unless you're talking about that post?

[GreyICE]

@ GreyICE...you're lurking backstage, man. Wassup with that? Things too interesting in the scum quicktopic? I iz missing your awesome scumhunting craziness.

Gimme till tonight/the weekend. I'm doing a lot of my posting from my phone, and things are a tad crazy right now

I have thoughts on this game, and I need some time to formulate them. Also want to bounce them off Antihero in the QT, maybe filter some of my more absurd nonsense.

[Umbrage]

I'm back. I didn't even get out of bed yesterday, I was very sick. However, I am still lucid enough for this:

VOTE: xRECKONERx

Why he is a better lynch than Kise:

1. I don't see scum making up a fake AIM conversation to enhance their case. Kise didn't even leave himself the back door of 'well it could've been some other guy', he said he only chats with three people.

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

3. The way I see it, if Kise flips town, it doesn't really mean Reck is scum, and he could talk his way out of a lynch. But if Reck is town, Kise is almost definitely scum.

Also, I hereby

FoS

GreyICE and Antihero. They've put together very little content. GreyICE manages to joke around a lot, make lists of the lovers, and point out which players aren't posting, but doesn't stick his neck out. Antihero's done nothing of note except attack q21 while voting EmpTyger.

Finally, I feel the same way as Haylen regarding Reck's play in this game. If she replaces out due to him, I will as well.

[dramonic]

@People voting Reck: The point is to catch scum, not abrasive town.

@Reck: Baby, calm the fuck down please.

@Umbrage: Kise is lying regardless, wether you like it or not. It could be a genuine mistake, but I believe he's a smart guy so he wouldn't do this kind of stupid mistake. If Reck flips town, Kise is scum. If Reck flips scum, Kise is other scum. If Kise flips town, I are disappoint in him.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO DISAPPOINT ME (AGAIN) KISE M'BOY!

[Haylen]

May I ask how the AIM chats are even relevant?

[Umbrage]

May I ask how the AIM chats are even relevant?

I don't think anyone remembers anymore.

[Espeonage]

Because it apparently incriminates Kise under LaL.

[Nero Cain]

@Nero: I'm tired of beating a dead horse but out of the players here, I only IM you, Reck and dram. Since I know I haven't spoken to dram in ages and Reck uploaded the convos, it comes down to you. I remember you signed up after me for this game and made mention of it, but I'm not sure explicitly what was talked about, though you can guess what I believe we went over. It's more than RK and shit, is what I'm getting at.

I know you sent me a pm telling me to sign up and I did make the comment "I'm cheating on you with Ed so no lovers multiball for us" but that was in the Halo thread so you're either mistaken about something or just lying through your teeth.

[Nero Cain]

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

Que? This doesn't even make sense to me!!! Reck said there were no night kills, Kise says "Oh I know I've talked to you before the game started and I know you read the pms" big Kise and Reck back n forth. Kise says OH it was NERO, I know I'm right this time!!! So I don't even get what you mean. We are playing on a mistake?

vote: Umbrage

[xRECKONERx]

Reckoner:
(…And let me say right now that what you’ve been posting is in no way “good”.)
Haylen, silavor, and Kise have done 3 very different things. Why have you the same over-the-top reaction to all 3?

Uh, what?
Haylen set me off because she was stupid, Kise set me off because he blatantly lied, and silavor set me off because he was defending Haylen's stupidity.

@Reck: Your words still do not match up with the issue at hand. Irregardless of how you became involved in this game, I claimed to have known you read the scum's role PM and you didn't call me out on it back then. The purpose of me saying "KNOW" in all caps was to grab your attention, so there's no excuse to mistake that for me saying I was convinced > knowing you read the scum's role. Another interesting bit:

When I'm convinced I've done something, I use the word "know". As in, "I KNOW I put my keys on the rack, where the hell did they go?" or "I KNOW I had my phone before I walked out the door, did I drop it?" You're getting into an argument about semantics now, and it's tedious and ultimately pointless. Assuming you're correct in your line of questioning for a moment, what would be advantageous about me to not go off on you earlier if I had known that's what you were talking about?

You didn't come swinging out of the woodworks until I specifically mentioned AIM. If you claim that you knew nothing about the game at all, then should it have mattered HOW I knew? You should have been going ape shit the moment I said something about your knowledge with this setup, but there wasn't even a follow up or curiosity from you as to where I was drawing my accusations from.

See above. Also, see Purple's response.

Do I have to read anything in the last pages?
I just see Kise and Reck fighting and Reck being right.


Can we actually do stuff instead of being stupid and accusing each other of lies?

Be my guest, since you've been completely useless the entire game.

I think Reck needs some more lovin or something. He's way too stressed.

I'm not sure I believe Kise blatantly lied. I've I had conversations with someone and thought it was with someone else.

A-ha… but Nero Cain also denies having a conversation with Kise about the setup ever, and we haven't heard from dramonic on the issue yet… but Kise himself said that the only people he ever talks to from mafiascum are me, dram, and Nero. If the three of us deny ever having had that conversation, then that means KISE DID NOT HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

I actually kinda HOPED Nero would be like "Oh yeah, that was me" because then I'd be able to resolve all of this in my head. But what it looks like now is that Kise tried to make up evidence to support his theory that I purposely slipped about the nightkill thing, didn't realize I would be allowed by the mod to show concrete proof that his 'evidence' is bullshit, then went to latch onto Nero…who also was like "Nah dude, not me". Dram also didn't mention anything, so at this point, either someone else in the game needs to pipe up and be like, "Oh yeah, Kise talked to ME about the game" or else Kise completely fabricated this conversation, which certainly falls under lynch all liars.

1. I don't see scum making up a fake AIM conversation to enhance their case. Kise didn't even leave himself the back door of 'well it could've been some other guy', he said he only chats with three people.

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

3. The way I see it, if Kise flips town, it doesn't really mean Reck is scum, and he could talk his way out of a lynch. But if Reck is town, Kise is almost definitely scum.

1. There was no way for him to know that I would be allowed to post my entire AIM logs with him in order to clear myself.

2. That… well, that's blind speculation and quite a stretch, so there's not really a way for me to defend against that.

3. It's very hard to match alignments of other people to flips because of the fact that

THERE ARE TWO MOTHERFUCKING SCUMTEAMS IN THIS GAME

.

Finally, I feel the same way as Haylen regarding Reck's play in this game. If she replaces out due to him, I will as well.

Ah yes. Another one who won't be missed.

@Reck: Baby, calm the fuck down please.

Only because you asked.

May I ask how the AIM chats are even relevant?

I don't think anyone remembers anymore.

Man, you're really not paying attention, are you?

Because it apparently incriminates Kise under LaL.

SNIPED BY NERO: Interesting catch on Umbrage. I want to see what Kise has to say about your response to him.

[Kcdaspot]

Read Kise's ISO.

I'm convinced of my vote. Reck seems to want to blow it WAY out of proportion. As far as I'm concerned, scummy thing happen IN thread rather out of thread.

Reck is over-perusing baseless and harmless nothings.

That's that.