Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[Llamarble]

Oh actually L-3, it looks like.

[Empking]

Vote Count 21

1. bobsnox (1) - , CMAR
2. DarlaBlueEyes (1) - MoreWhisky
3. werewolf555
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
12. Final Fires
13. Llarmable (6) - Yosarian2, Bub Bidderskins, werewolf555, Fishythefish, bobsnox, DarlaBlueEyes
14. MoreWhisky (5) - Jahudo, DLG, Nikanor, Brokenscraps, Final Fires


Not Voting: Llarmable


With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

Deadline tomorrow

[MoreWhisky]

Im on 6 i need 1 more off me guys as i should pick up 2 votes with my claim.

[Llamarble]

No way 2 scum are outing themselves to quickhammer you. We don't have time for more hemming/hawing.

[Llamarble]

Also morewhisky is voting himself in that votecount so you're at l-3 once you unvote yourself.

[Llamarble]

Gah I hate this situation. Either me or a claimed PR I have a townread on is getting lynched today...
Why couldn't we just have lynched Bidderskins obvscum??

Scum almost always claim PRs D1 because it sometimes stops them from getting lynched when they would otherwise.
This makes a claimed PR a lot more likely to be scum.
Also FF softclaimed, meaning the odds of randomly hitting a town PR are reduced further.
I may not have access enough to vote in time tomorrow and lynching 40%scum60%PR (normally it'd be more like 60%scum but I dropped the percentage due to my read) is better than lynching 100% VT.
VOTE: MoreWhisky


By the way I reread Jahudo and don't have a strong townread on him anymore.
Too much clarificationy posting. The main scumhunting he does is finding Ender scummy for the FF unvote, which is easily explained by Ender just not thinking to put his vote back on, and the Whisky contradiction, which was pretty obviously sarcasm.

P. Edit: Mod fixed that votecount, which is why the last couple posts look weird.

[MoreWhisky]

lol i never voted myself.

Ok im an undercover cop with a difference, im joining the escaped prisoners tonight as a prisoner traitor. now they know im screwed thats why i asked for doc protection tonight. So i will realise the name of the head prisoner who has a NK. I wont release the name of the second unless i get doc protection tonight.

Vote Darla

Now you may understand my behaviour more. At last something for you all to get your teeth into. Been loads of spam guys!

[CryMeARiver]

MoreWhisky's Actions

RVS Yos
I really dislike his ISO 1 now that I reread it

Final fires you got to laugh how your reasoning has everyone apart from you who voted for Yos as most probaly the scum, we just started. If the game was a bit older you would have my vote for that.

Establish FF as a noob
FoS Jahudo for talking about the FF situation...really MW?
Establish Ender as a noob
Reinforce his vote on Yos with really strange reasoning (MW gave reasons for why he thinks ender is just noobtown, Yos uses those reasons to find ender as scum, therefore Yos is scum? I don't think so, just his opinion, and many others clearly due to the ensuing bw)
Scrap his whole "case" against Yos, and votes Darla for posting a post that's "all over the place" and for not putting sufficient time into the game... Oh, and this vote on Darla was 4th on a growing bandwagon.
Apologizes to Darla for misunderstanding her, yes keeps his vote on her.
FoS Ender for his backing up of Darla
Congratulates Llamarble's posting style and says he won't be joining her bandwagon.
UnFoS Ender (Llamarble) saying he's noobtown again
Softclaim PR without full claiming

I really hate him - he's quite scummy in ISO. Also, his support of ender being town (yet waffling on it) and Llamarble's hesitance to vote MW seems like we might have nailed a scumTEAM here. This is not the hammer, this is L1 according to the most recent votecount.
VOTE: MW

[CryMeARiver]

lol i never voted myself.

Ok im an undercover cop with a difference, im joining the escaped prisoners tonight as a prisoner traitor. now they know im screwed thats why i asked for doc protection tonight. So i will realise the name of the head prisoner who has a NK. I wont release the name of the second unless i get doc protection tonight.

Vote Darla

Now you may understand my behaviour more. At last something for you all to get your teeth into. Been loads of spam guys!

This claim is shit. BTW.

[DLG]

lol i never voted myself.

Ok im an undercover cop with a difference, im joining the escaped prisoners tonight as a prisoner traitor. now they know im screwed thats why i asked for doc protection tonight. So i will realise the name of the head prisoner who has a NK. I wont release the name of the second unless i get doc protection tonight.

Vote Darla

Now you may understand my behaviour more. At last something for you all to get your teeth into. Been loads of spam guys!

Oh, come on! A PR claim that has absolutely nothng to do with the little of bit of flavor we've been provided.

Is this just more sarcasm?

Someone hammer this scum!

[Jahudo]

im joining the escaped prisoners tonight as a prisoner traitor.

This sounds like a traitor role, except traitor is a scum role. If you are not claiming scum, Whisky, how is your role different and why shouldn't we lynch you at this point?

[bobsnox]

I'll hammer him. That was ridicu-bad.

Someone please vig Darla tonight - her posts are begging for a vig-bullet.

Unvote: Llamarble

Vote: MoreWhisky

[Empking]

Vote Count 21.5

1. bobsnox
2. DarlaBlueEyes (1) - MoreWhisky
3. werewolf555
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
12. Final Fires
13. Llarmable (5) - Yosarian2, Bub Bidderskins, werewolf555, Fishythefish, DarlaBlueEyes
14. MoreWhisky (8) - Jahudo, DLG, Nikanor, Brokenscraps, Final Fires, Llarmable, CMAR, bobsnox


Not Voting:


With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

[Empking]

So it turned out that you had a Dilemma. Do you lynch Llarmable or the guy with the obvious fake claim? Truly it was one of the great dilemmas of mankind. You in almost two voices breathed down our two suspects necks. Then the majority of you rushed at MoreWhiskey and strung him up by the neck. As his last breath escaped his lips another noise escaped another mouth. “MoreWhiskey was a Vanilla Townie. I double checked.”

MoreWhiskey was a Vanilla Townie. He was Town

Night 1 Begins Now and Ends in 48 Hours

[Empking]

The dilemma was heavy in the air as the good Dr. Fears sat down on his favourite chair. To drink hot chocolate or warm milk? That was the question. That was the dilemma. Unfortunately those five seconds (well more like two, seconds are awfully long aren’t they?) were utterly fruitless. A better question would have been “Should I take my scalpel and randomly stab behind me on the off chance there’s a Mafiaso there?”

If he did that he might still be here with us today.

Final Fears was Shot. He was a Doctor. He was Town. Day Two Begins Now

[Empking]

Vote Count 21.5

1. bobsnox
2. DarlaBlueEyes
3. werewolf555
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. CryMeARiver
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2
13. llarmable

Not Voting: bobsnox, DarlaBlueEyes, werewolf555, DLG, Jahudo, Bub Bidderskins, Fishythefish, brokenscraps, CryMeARiver, Nikanor, Yosarian2, llamarble

[Nikanor]

Oh dear.

Vote: FishytheFish.

From his actions late yesterday, I can't see him as town.

[Fishythefish]

Why is that?

VOTE: DLG

Extremely poor vote on Llama, which he refused to defend. Cannot be explained by tunnelling; he never had Llama as the most scummy player. See my ISO for details; this guy is scum.

[DLG]

Why is that?

VOTE: DLG

Extremely poor vote on Llama, which he refused to defend. Cannot be explained by tunnelling; he never had Llama as the most scummy player. See my ISO for details; this guy is scum.

Are you given to running entirely misrepresented cases against other players as town?

What, specifically, are you trying to claim I didn't defend? I demand some evidence or a retraction of this crap.

I never did have the ender241/Llamarble slot as the most scummy. I did have that slot in my top 3 scum reads. I was willing to hammer that slot, and even voted to move it back to L-1 when Nikanor unvoted to keep positive pressure on a scum read. Since my play was the consistent one, and yours most closely resembles a yo-yo, what is scummy about mine?

Current top 3 scum reads:
Fishythefish, DarlaBlueEyes, Llamarble

DarlaBlueEyes and Llamarble are carry over suspects from Day 1. Fishythefish is the player with a terribly unjustified vote on Llamarble at the end of Day 1. I cannot imagine a town motivation for selling all out to defend another player, then being willing to be part of potentially lynching that slot. Add in the asinine case against me for good measure.

Didn't like MW's very first content post (iso 1), fencesitting on FF. However, in iso 2 he comes down on the right side of the fence, saying that FF's explanation was believable.

How did you know MoreWhisky's conclusion was correct regarding FinalFires? We all know that, now. But, at that point, how did you know?

VOTE: Fishythefish

[bobsnox]

I could go for a Llamarble lynch frealz today.

Or Fishy

Wondering about Bidderskins.

Looking through all of their ISOs to see their interactions with FF. Ender's early votes on FF look pretty suspicious. Like he believed FF's PR soft claim, thought about getting him lynched to save a nightkill, and then thought better of it to cover himself.

VOTE: Llamarble

[CryMeARiver]

Don't have much time, but there is scum on this small early wagon:

12. Final Fires (4) - Brokenscraps, Bub Bidderskins, bobsnox, ender241

[Fishythefish]

Are you given to running entirely misrepresented cases against other players as town?

What, specifically, are you trying to claim I didn't defend? I demand some evidence or a retraction of this crap.

I never did have the ender241/Llamarble slot as the most scummy. I did have that slot in my top 3 scum reads. I was willing to hammer that slot, and even voted to move it back to L-1 when Nikanor unvoted to keep positive pressure on a scum read. Since my play was the consistent one, and yours most closely resembles a yo-yo, what is scummy about mine?

I'm not ignoring this, I just don't have time to respond now. It's going to need quotes. I think it's pretty clear if people read my ISO.

Fishythefish is the player with a terribly unjustified vote on Llamarble at the end of Day 1. I cannot imagine a town motivation for selling all out to defend another player, then being willing to be part of potentially lynching that slot. Add in the asinine case against me for good measure.

Didn't like MW's very first content post (iso 1), fencesitting on FF. However, in iso 2 he comes down on the right side of the fence, saying that FF's explanation was believable.

How did you know MoreWhisky's conclusion was correct regarding FinalFires? We all know that, now. But, at that point, how did you know?

VOTE: Fishythefish

I voted Llama because I still felt there was a decent chance of his being scum - particularly after you noted that BBscum -/> Llamatown. Attacking the people going after him does not mean I have a strong town read on him. By "the right side of the fence" I mean that MW's read of FF's posting was very much the same as mine; FF's posting about being from another site rung very true.

[DLG]

I'm not ignoring this, I just don't have time to respond now. It's going to need quotes. I think it's pretty clear if people read my ISO.

How about I just go ahead and do the work for you?

Game Post #365 This is where you offer your commentary on my case on Llamarble, among other things. Of significant note is the fact that you did not ask for any response.

DLG is massively trying to strongarm a Llama quicklynch. Very disturbing, considering Llama was his third option not long ago, and the others (DBE, MW) are possible lynches. Points he's since used against Llama:
- Saying he doesn't want to be quickhammered, and that people pushing that line are scummy.
- The contradiction (?) between Llama posting content and accusing people of trying to quicklynch him. Not sure I understand this, but that's what it says.
- Not having an entirely original case on BB.
- Saying he's "go back and look for the case on ender" when he's already mentioned ender.
- Accuses Llama of trying to stall the momentum of the town by asking for a couple of day.
- Changing mind during read of game.
- Llama basing an argument on BB knowing he was town. That's a line of argument used all the time. It's a common scumtell that scum know what flips are going to be, and going after Llama for using it is totally ridiculous.
These points are awful. DLG is trying to throw absolutely anything he can find at Llama.

Despite your lack of a request for a response, I posted
Game Post #377 I didn't respond to every single thing you had posted, just those I felt needed to be addressed. Again, remember, that you didn't request a response.

When you steal my arguments that highlight scummy behavior and try to turn them against me, at least use them properly. I have done nothing that could remotely be considered strongarming anyone. Either provide evidence or admit you misrepresented this and explain why you did so.

Yes, this slot was third on my list of preference. There was not enough variance between the three to prevent me from being willing to hammer the one that made it to L-1.

Could you please describe how being willing to hammer a slot that you believe is scum is wrong?
...
Two weeks is plenty of time to have enough content to make reads solid enough to be willing to lynch. Llamarble claims to have posted as much or more content as everyone else. Therefore, lynching him does not qualify as a quicklynch.
...
For the sake of argument, assume Bub Bidderskins is scum. Since we do not know the set-up is confined to scum vs. town, Bub Bidderskins as scum does not guarantee Llamarble is town. That is the falsehood Llamarble is selling. Why are you so gullible as to buy it? On the flip side, Llamarble's claim to be town does not make Bub Bidderskins scum for attacking him.

So, I directly responded to your main point, your first two points which were related, and your last point. 3 out of 6. What was I supposed to say about the others? Fishythefish says these points are

awful

, but I disagree?

Game Post #383This is remarkable for your ability to contradict yourself in one single post.

@DLG:
Re: "strongarming". You're quite right - I picked that term up from a post of BB's and it's the wrong one. Doesn't change the points; you're pushing a wagon very hard for very poor reasons, and trying to get a lynch quickly.

Re: "quicklynching". It's not about how much content Llama has produced, it's about how much he's currently producing, and what's happening. Here's why I think it's bad for you to threaten to hammer: even if Llama were equal with DBE and MW, you should want to firm up your reads on all of them, particularly when the others are possible lynches. It's not natural to just go after one candidate and threaten to lynch him immediately.

Re: BBscum -/> Llamatown. Quite right, actually, I have been making that assumption and it's a bad one. It doesn't change all that much. A terrible wagon does make Llama more likely town, and BB's attacks are still incredibly scummy. You don't address my actual point here. Llama said BB was scum for knowing Llama was town. You said that makes no sense because BB wouldn't know that. But scum do assume other people are town, and it's common to use that as a scumtell. I was criticising your point against Llama.
....
You haven't defended any of your points on Llama.

How can you start a post by repsonding to my responses and then actually claim I didn't defend my points? And, how can you possibly be trying to sell that horseshit now?
Game Post #430 You tried it here.

@DLG: I made a post where I criticised every (or nearly every, not sure) reason for which you have voted Llama. You have made no response.

Game Post #435 I responded here.

I responded to the points I wanted to. I didn't respond to the others because I was unwilling to engage in a debate designed solely to distract attention from the main focus, Llamarble. Classifying what was going on as you versus me perfectly illustrates the point. It was me versus Llamarble if it was anything. Who appointed you Johnnie Cochran to Llamarble's O.J. Simpson?

Are we done with this, yet? I absolutely renew my point that your case on me is bunk.

[bobsnox]

Don't have much time, but there is scum on this small early wagon:

12. Final Fires (4) - Brokenscraps, Bub Bidderskins, bobsnox, ender241

when are you going to have time to explain that?

[Fishythefish]

I kind of assumed that if you believe in your case, you’ll offer a response to someone calling it uniformly rubbish.

It is simply untrue that you didn’t defend any of your points against Llama. My apologies. You did only defend 2 out of 7. 3 out of 8 if you count pointing out my misuse of the word “strongarm”.

Of your points on Llama I attacked in 365, you defended the second – saying why lynching Llama quickly wouldn’t be a quicklynch (I massively disagree), and the last – although see below.

So, here’s what I see in your play, going through your iso:
[Throughout, the lynches you favour are MW, DBE, and Llama, and at some stage also me. Llama is never top of that list]

33 – case against Llama. I’ve argued why the case is terrible, but let’s go on a little about the points you’ve defended.

1. Quicklynch. You called for someone to hammer Llama when he was clearly producing content, and discussion was very much ongoing. I call that a quicklynch. Your stance seems to be that it isn’t possible to quicklynch someone who has produced some content, which I find ridiculous. If that’s not what you mean in post 36, please clarify.
2. Point on BB. Here is my take on this conversation:
Llama: BB knows I’m town. That makes him scum.
DLG: Since BB cannot know you are town, that’s a false argument.
Fishy: Wha?
Knowing people are town is used

all the time

as a scumtell. It’s an extraordinary thing to argue against, and really looks like you are more interested in attacking Llama than what’s actually true. Your later post saying BBscum -/> Llamatown, while true, does not actually address this.

36 – you asked me why I hadn’t attacked BB earlier. The answer was obvious enough – everything he’d done that I found scummy had only just happened. This question makes me think you didn’t really care what I was saying – someone who had thought about my posting could hardly make that error.

Actually, it gets much better after that, which I’ll admit I hadn’t realised. You argue with me a lot, and I haven’t changed my opinion on anything we argued about, but it’s not in the slightest bit scummy.

So, to summarise. The case on Llama was awful, and in the follow up I really didn’t get the feeling you were trying to determine Llama’s alignment. The only townie picture it fits well for me is “really tunneled town”, and it fits really badly with someone who should be trying to decide between their three top scumreads.

Hmmm. I thought you and BB made terrible moves onto Llama, and were both likely scum. You argued with me, BB didn’t. Your arguments read ok. I’m voting the wrong guy.

UNVOTE: VOTE: BB