Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[werewolf555]

I'll try to post more, but this is my interpretation of what's going on here

[q21]

Right, so for some reason, and I honestly don't know what, I started this game out really disinterested. My first posts suck hairy elephant balls and I'll make no statements otherwise. I intentionally didn't visit the thread for a day or so, hoping that the short break would allow me to refocus and remotivate. It worked, this evening I sat done all amped to play this game and decided to start with a reread. Well, about halfway through that reread I got to reck being... well... reck - reck in CAPS LAWK moade actually - and pretty quickly I was disinterested again. Doesn't really matter that none of it was directed anywhere near me, I don't particularly like reading that kind of aggression.

However, I tend to treat mafia games as a commitment and I'd been away long enough already without any reason beyond I didn't feel like playing - so I pursevered. There are lots of things that could be said, but like I just said I'm disinterested again so all the nitpicking and logic that comes when I'm playing well... just isn't there. I'll cut straight to two things then.

GreyICE 343 - Well done, you've managed to prove that I'm disinterested. Doesn't indicate scum or town for me, but that's a meta argument and you (or anyone else) would have to be a genuine moron to trust self meta, so meh. As for myself and Umbrage going in opposite direction? Sadly, I guess for both of us, we got paired with someone who reads the game almost completely differently 90+% of the time. We are both capable of reading correctly (well, I know I am and I think Umbrage is) but very rarely will our reads overlap - at least in the early game. Our choice then becomes that either one or both of us has to shift our methods of reading the game and play outside of what we know in order to present a united front or we each individually forge on with what we believe to be right.
Also, scum are vastly more likely to agree with each other in thread because that means that can go about building bandwagons with - in what is a very rare case in mafia games - sheep votes that are perfectly reasonable.


The other point regards what has dominated the thread for rather a long time. Kise v Reck and the apparent conversation that never happened. Reck proved it, right? At first I thought that too, but then something began niggling at me. So I went back to that post where he showed us the screenshot and I looked again and I saw what is was that was niggling me. There is a big shiny delete button.

Just to confirm my suspicion I went and googled the client reck uses (Adium), specifically the Chat Transcript Viewer - do it yourself in your own time if you don't believe me - and yes it is quite possible that the conversation Kisa claimed happened and reck says didn't... did in fact take place and reck, realising he was caught deleted it and then went on the rampage against Kise. Given how sure Kise was, how foolish he would have been to invent such a conversation as scum, and how he cut down his retreat by himself I believe kise here.

So, it seems Umbrage and I finally agree on something.

Unvote, Vote Reck

[Thingyman]

But i'm going about this wrong, GreyICE can you take this list and match all to their lover to get more accurate counts?

I know I'm not GreyICE, but I figured I'd accomodate you anyway.

antihero & GreyICE: 74
Nero Cain & xRECKONERx: 63
Thingyman & EmpTyger: 36
espeonage & Purple Orange: 36
implosion & Kise: 28
q21 & Umbrage: 28
Haylen & silavor: 23
Mariyta & Tragedy: 19
Baby Spice & Kcdaspot: 18
Llamarble & DarlaBlueEyes: 12
SnakePlissken & vezokpiraka: 12
Dramonic & werewolf555: 8

[Thingyman]

The other point regards what has dominated the thread for rather a long time. Kise v Reck and the apparent conversation that never happened. Reck proved it, right?

At first I thought that too, but then something began niggling at me. So I went back to that post where he showed us the screenshot and I looked again and I saw what is was that was niggling me.

There is a big shiny delete button.

I don't like this part. You're basically saying that your subconscious caught onto the fact that there was a delete button and that you went back to re-check it because you knew there was something specific that bothered you, but you didn't quite know what? I just don't buy this - I don't know if it necessarily makes you scum/wolf - but you're lying or being misleading about your thought process here. If you noticed the delete button the first time around, then you would've right there known that something was up and been fully aware of what was/is niggling at you.

I hope I worded the above paragraph clearly enough.

[GreyICE]

Bullshit.

You still haven't shown why I am scummy. You haven't shown what statements of mine are poor, or stated why they are poor. You haven't responded intelligently to any of my posts. You clearly haven't even read my posts, or you wouldn't make stupid mistakes like saying I accused you of OMGUS. If the town is stupid enough to believe you, then I'll be happy to be lynched.

I don't think town is that stupid, though.

Oh wait, maybe they are:

Umbrage, on OMGUS: An "evolving position?"

Idea #1: You're scum. We'll expound upon this at length, it's already been expounded upon a bit in our quickthread.

I bet you have. OMGUS much?

And that's not me dodging with a question. That's me trying to get you to defend yourself legitimately instead of pulling this crappy OMGUS-style counter-attack. You've got some nerve saying I'm avoiding you. You never found me scummy until I called the two of you out. Coincidence?

Let me try and explain this one more time

[Because you explained it in the first place?]

. I am saying that your attack on me is a strategy, and a scummy one, designed to try and deflect attention off of yourself. I used the term OMGUS to illustrate how this strategy is used. It is not traditional OMGUS, which is attacking someone who is attacking you solely because they are attacking you. This is attacking someone who is attacking you because you want to deflect attention off of yourself. Like OMGUS, but different.

You clearly haven't even read my posts, or you wouldn't make stupid mistakes like saying I accused you of OMGUS.

So... did Umbrage really mean what he said he meant? Or did he accuse me of OMGUS and then realize that he didn't have a hope in hell of getting that charge to stick, and 'evolve' his position? Is this sort of flailing about typical of town facing down a mislynch, or scum facing down a mislynch?

Well, lets see.

No… no, it doesn't. And even if it did have to be one of us, your reasons for voting me over Kise are, quite frankly, bullshit. So you're either really bad at being town or really bad at being mafia, I just can't figure out which.

Excellent argument there. My reasons are bullshit, eh? Can't argue with that.

And of course you're not biased in any way. No sir.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, fucking right.

Does anyone who is not Umbrage want a history of the scummy things he's done? Or were my earlier posts on the subject quite enough? As I said before, I have no real interest in convincing scum they're scum - it's a battle that can't be won.

PEDIT: And suddenly, a flurry of posts! To review in a bit.

[Nero Cain]

Whoever said one of Reck/Kise HAS to be lying is full of it. This is the same black and white thinking from UM. Since I know that me and Reck are town and I don't necessarily believe that Kise is lying as in in perhaps had this conversation not on aim and not with me and Reck then the whole "ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING!!!!" is potentially setting up 2 mislynches.

Q21 makes my head hurt. Most programs have a delete button. Just 'cause its there doesn't mean he deleted anything.

also

unvote;vote:Q21

and no its not an OMGUS since I was already voting this slot.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE 343 - Well done, you've managed to prove that I'm disinterested. Doesn't indicate scum or town for me, but that's a meta argument and you (or anyone else) would have to be a genuine moron to trust self meta, so meh. As for myself and Umbrage going in opposite direction? Sadly, I guess for both of us, we got paired with someone who reads the game almost completely differently 90+% of the time. We are both capable of reading correctly (well, I know I am and I think Umbrage is) but very rarely will our reads overlap - at least in the early game. Our choice then becomes that either one or both of us has to shift our methods of reading the game and play outside of what we know in order to present a united front or we each individually forge on with what we believe to be right.
Also, scum are vastly more likely to agree with each other in thread because that means that can go about building bandwagons with - in what is a very rare case in mafia games - sheep votes that are perfectly reasonable.

By Thor, it lives! And... posts more content than Umbrage has managed to in his entire time in the thread. Holy goddamn what the fuck?

I'm inclined to see where you're coming from. Certainly me and antihero aren't 100% eye to eye. And I agree it makes more sense as a scum strategy to lurk and be disinterested.

Unfortunately, I'm not necessarily getting a town vibe from this. The distracting back on to the Reckoner/Kise shit is unbelievable. And playing the reasonable half of the pair is weird. Honestly, q21, what you called good scumplay at this stage, forming blocks? It's bad scumplay because it's visible a mile away. Like "Oh look, those 4 people always agree with each other, and they tend to float from wagon to wagon, and hey look! Scum!"

I've said it before: I don't drink wine, I break goblets and use them as shivs. You two have honestly been playing a lot like scum. Umbrage? He still is.

[xRECKONERx]

Unvote, Vote Reck

Please tell me your vote on me is not based on the fact that my AIM client has a delete button and I could have possibly, potentially deleted that conversation. There is no evidence for that. Please, give me some real reasons here. This doesn't qualify:

Given how sure Kise was, how foolish he would have been to invent such a conversation as scum, and how he cut down his retreat by himself I believe kise here.

How about how sure I was that the conversation never happened?
How about the fact that Kise has now changed his opinion from "it was with Reck" to "it was with

someone

"?
How about the fact that I even said I was willing to give Kise the benefit of the doubt? In retrospect now, that whole exchange screams town on town.

Since I know that me and Reck are town and I don't necessarily believe that Kise is lying as in in perhaps had this conversation not on aim and not with me and Reck then the whole "ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING!!!!" is potentially setting up 2 mislynches.

Q21 makes my head hurt. Most programs have a delete button. Just 'cause its there doesn't mean he deleted anything.

Goodposting. Basically summarized everything I'm trying to say in a much clearer manner. I think I'll follow my lover's lead here and

Unvote; Vote: q21

for attempting to use flimsy, shady, craplogic (if you can even qualify it as logic) in order to try and incriminate me, as well as for perpetuating the belief that it has to be one or the other.

[Purple Orange]

I am sorry that I am managing to "annoy you to death" somehow? :S - if it's because I've said "zilch" (which I think is a bit unfair and harsh to say - especially given that I've apparently said enough to warrant a town read), then I'm reading the thread right now and will have some thoughts when I'm done.

Yeah, maybe a bit harsh, but all your posts up to that point could be summarized: "we should massclaim, I don't agree with my lover on GreyICE maybe, and I'm a villagey villagerish villa!" :p Last bit in particular drove me up the wall.

You say you think Umbridge/q21 are too scummy to be scum - what in particular did you find scummy about them?

There is a big shiny delete button.

Uh...I think we all assumed there was the possibility that Reck could have deleted stuff? Again, my hat's off to him if he's lying, as that was some pretty darn genuine looking outrage. :p

[xRECKONERx]

The 'delete button' argument is ultimately empty and will get us nowhere. It's not like I tried to crop the screenshot in such a way that you couldn't see the delete button or something. It's there. There's no evidence for if I used it or not (I didn't, so you have my word, but that's only worth as much credit as you'll give it). q21 attempting to use that as his basis for a vote on me is completely ridiculous.

[q21]

Thingy - I didn't look at the screenshot in great detail first time around. Reck had already said when the four (only four according to him) chats had been what they'd been about, when I saw the screenshot I saw that there were indeed four chats and a quick skim showed that at least one of them was about what reck claimed it was. I didn't look harder than that then and there as there were still 4 and a half pages to finish reading. Something in my subconscious prompted me to go back and look again, maybe I'd seen but not fully registered the delete button in the picture, maybe its the fact that every electronic messaging system I've ever use allows you todelete things. I don't know. I went back and checked and reck's socalled proof that Kise is lying is bullshit.

Forget for a moment the method of delivery and tell me what you think of the fact presented.

Whoever said one of Reck/Kise HAS to be lying is full of it. This is the same black and white thinking from UM. Since I know that me and Reck are town and I don't necessarily believe that Kise is lying as in in perhaps had this conversation not on aim and not with me and Reck then the whole "ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING!!!!" is potentially setting up 2 mislynches.

Q21 makes my head hurt. Most programs have a delete button. Just 'cause its there doesn't mean he deleted anything.

also unvote;vote:Q21

and no its not an OMGUS since I was already voting this slot.

You're right of course that it isn't as simple as Kise is lying or reck is lying, there is also the Kise is entirely deluded/confused option. From the tone of his posts, especially when Kise first put the case forward I don't think that last option is likely. And while its true that there's no proof that reck deleted anything the fact that very easily could have strips the validity from everyone of his KISE MADE A BALD FACE LIE CASE AGAINST ME AND I CAN PROVE/HAVE PROOVED IT! posts. Without that validity Reck comes out of the exchange looking scummy.

Unfortunately, I'm not necessarily getting a town vibe from this. The distracting back on to the Reckoner/Kise shit is unbelievable. And playing the reasonable half of the pair is weird. Honestly, q21, what you called good scumplay at this stage, forming blocks? It's bad scumplay because it's visible a mile away. Like "Oh look, those 4 people always agree with each other, and they tend to float from wagon to wagon, and hey look! Scum!"

I've said it before: I don't drink wine, I break goblets and use them as shivs. You two have honestly been playing a lot like scum. Umbrage? He still is.

The "Reckoner/Kise shit" is not distracting its making a valid observation that debunks reck's supposed proof and thereby throws and entirely new light onto what has been one of the major interactions of the game so far. That new light has reck as much scummier and Kise as much townier. This is called scumhunting, learn it well.

Secondly, what I meant with the reasonable sheep votes was partners sheeping each other, not one scumpair sheeping the other scumpair. I'm talking about the ability a pair working in concert has to turn an non wagon into a 2 vote wagon or a 3 vote wagon into a 5 vote wagon. I never mentioned anything about 4 vote blocks.

Since you bring up the point about how easy it would be to spot 4 players working together... any thoughts on vezok voting me in 185, his lover snake joining in 189 and you in 191 with the only reason being sheeping your lover. There were other people voting me around that time, yes, I pick these two pairs (vezok/snake & GreyICE/AH) based on some interesting early activity. Both snake and vezok RVS you, which is possibly distancing. Snake is the first to call you out for your massclaim wishywashyness, your immediate response is to reply with a more solid stance. Possible coaching. At this point just a half formed theory, but a GreyICE/AH; Snake/vezok scumteam seems a possibility to me.

[q21]

1. How about how sure I was that the conversation never happened?
2. How about the fact that Kise has now changed his opinion from "it was with Reck" to "it was with

someone

"?
3. How about the fact that I even said I was willing to give Kise the benefit of the doubt? In retrospect now, that whole exchange screams town on town.

1. As initiator of the conflict I'm more willing to take Kise sureness over yours.
2. Because being ranted at and having falseproof waved in your face will do that to you. Same way innocent people will confess under torture.
3. You realised you weren't getting the easy mislynch you wanted.

[xRECKONERx]

1. As initiator of the conflict I'm more willing to take Kise sureness over yours.
2. Because being ranted at and having falseproof waved in your face will do that to you. Same way innocent people will confess under torture.
3. You realised you weren't getting the easy mislynch you wanted.

This is completely ridiculous. You are REFUSING to admit that Kise COULD HAVE JUST BEEN FUCKING MISTAKEN. No... instead, it makes MUCH MORE SENSE to you that I would go through the trouble of saying that we didn't have that conversation, delete it from my logs, contact the mod in order to get the okay to post a screenshot, post the entirety of my logs in text form, and do everything that I've done so far just to get Kise mislynched.

PS, plenty of people were voting Kise, if I wanted a lynch on him I could've stuck with it and gathered the support. Your entire reasoning behind voting me comes down to "Kise brought it up first, so I'm going to believe that he was right."

WHEN THE GUY WHO STARTED THE ARGUMENT HIMSELF ADMITS THAT HE WAS MISTAKEN YOU SHOULD PROBABLY FUCKING LISTEN

[Antihero]

Completely not the same thing. One is "I'll vote for either." My position is "this issue sucks and is irrelevant."

And how does ignoring the issue benefit anyone?

Ignoring red herrings is extremely beneficial and very liberating.

Great summary. Doesn't take into account that LAL sucks.

I don't always agree with LaL either, but I can't find any pro-town motivations for those players lying about that issue.

Why do either have to be "lying." Human memory = far from perfect.

I'm not implying that at all. What I'm saying is that if you've been a nonparticipant (however justified the reason), you can't say "OMG, they're jumping on me now that I've FoSed them, SCUMZ."

Actually, the less activity I have in the thread, the more likely it is that your attack on me is OMGUS, because there is less reason for you to suspect me.

We were voting q21 before you came and threw down the fos; so actually, you're the one making the OMGUS.

[q21]

1. As initiator of the conflict I'm more willing to take Kise sureness over yours.
2. Because being ranted at and having falseproof waved in your face will do that to you. Same way innocent people will confess under torture.
3. You realised you weren't getting the easy mislynch you wanted.

This is completely ridiculous. You are REFUSING to admit that Kise COULD HAVE JUST BEEN FUCKING MISTAKEN. No... instead, it makes MUCH MORE SENSE to you that I would go through the trouble of saying that we didn't have that conversation, delete it from my logs, contact the mod in order to get the okay to post a screenshot, post the entirety of my logs in text form, and do everything that I've done so far just to get Kise mislynched.

I don't refuse to believe that Kise could be mistaken, but yes I do find second the option you outline here more likely. Its exactly what I'd have done as scum in your position, minus some of the CAPS LAWK ranting.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

This is the most lolarious game I have ever been a part of. And I was in WOMAFIA.

That being said all of this arguing over a freaking chatlog is just full of WIFOM and not helping town one bit. I wouldn't be surprised if all of you perpetuating it were scum.

[Kcdaspot]

Why am I the better lynch?

In short you over-pursued something that is a trifle. If the convo you say took place, took place it would mean Kise's possible ejection from the game.

For the record: Kise is accusing you of admitting you are scum over a IM? or the other way around?
either role sharing is bad if I recall and SOMEONE would have gotten ejected from the game (if i'm right)

also I needed this

But i'm going about this wrong, GreyICE can you take this list and match all to their lover to get more accurate counts?

I know I'm not GreyICE, but I figured I'd accomodate you anyway.

antihero & GreyICE: 74
Nero Cain & xRECKONERx: 63
Thingyman & EmpTyger: 36
espeonage & Purple Orange: 36
implosion & Kise: 28
q21 & Umbrage: 28
Haylen & silavor: 23
Mariyta & Tragedy: 19
Baby Spice & Kcdaspot: 18
Llamarble & DarlaBlueEyes: 12
SnakePlissken & vezokpiraka: 12
Dramonic & werewolf555: 8

Thnx thingy


hmm

For some reason Haylen and silva, and Dram and wererwolf stick out in my mind....

@ werewolf: DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE DANGIT

[xRECKONERx]

For the record: Kise is accusing you of admitting you are scum over a IM? or the other way around?

I'm going to have to use the "Are you fucking stupid?" face again.


No, that is not AT ALL what the argument is about… let me break it down for you:

1. I voted for GreyICE for pushing for a massclaim, because I thought scum could use a mass loverclaim to their advantage at night.
2. Someone informed me that this game was nightless, which caused me to retract my statement.
3. Kise came in and claimed that he had a conversation with me over AIM where I showed knowledge about the nightless setup, which would mean I blatantly lied about not knowing in order to gain town points.
4. Since that conversation never happened, I posted screenshots and full logs of all my conversations with Kise, none of which contained the alleged conversation about the setup.
5. Upon seeing the logs, Kise backpedaled and stated that he had a conversation with

someone

about the game on AIM, but it might not have been me.
6. I eventually gave Kise the benefit of the doubt and stopped my assault on him for being a direct liar. He could have just mistakenly remembered a conversation or something. In either case, it doesn't make sense for Kise-scum to make up an entire conversation I had with him when I could just prove it wrong.

[xRECKONERx]

Oh my god. Wait a second.

In short you over-pursued something that is a trifle. If the convo you say took place, took place it would mean Kise's possible ejection from the game.

You think I'm the one stating that a conversation took place? No, holy shit, can you fucking read!? The ENTIRE debacle is because KISE said that we had a conversation, and I was the one saying we never did.

Holy shit.
Is it just me, or did Kcdaspot just out himself as someone who was just trying to sheep onto a wagon using regurgitated logic, but he misunderstood the case and therefore outed himself in the process?

[xRECKONERx]

Isoing Kcdaspot for the game. One moment please.

[Mariyta]

Holy shit.
Is it just me, or did Kcdaspot just out himself as someone who was just trying to sheep onto a wagon using regurgitated logic, but he misunderstood the case and therefore outed himself in the process?

No, it's not just you... but does it mean he's scum, or just an ignorant twit?

[xRECKONERx]

Confirmation post, then a I need to catchup post. Nothing unusual there. Stalls on issue of lover-claiming, confers with lover (Baby Spice), then claims. Bunch of useless fluff ("Haylen seems suicidal", "Reck is acting like Fate", etc.)

Ah yes, here we are. His first mention of the me vs. Kise thing is here:

This entire arguement is bullshit and has absolutly jack to do with this game...


VOTE: Reck

before I seriously call you Fate.

At this point, I had

just

posted the logs. And his response is to vote me. Furthermore, he claims "the entire argument" (which suggests he understands the argument) is bullshit. This post also insinuates that he is voting for me because he doesn't agree with my argument. Then, after SensFan posts a modwarning about using language, Kcdaspot posts THIS:

@ sensfan post: why my vote stays.

Now, he is not voting me because he disagrees with my argument, he's voting me because I'm being aggressive and vulgar. However, when questioned on his vote on me, he responds with this:

Read Kise's ISO.

I'm convinced of my vote. Reck seems to want to blow it WAY out of proportion. As far as I'm concerned, scummy thing happen IN thread rather out of thread.

Reck is over-perusing baseless and harmless nothings.

That's that.

Now, he's back to voting me because I'm "blowing it out of proportion". However, he still hasn't said what it is that's being blown out of proportion, and in his last post he said he was voting me because I was abrasive, not because I was blowing something out of proportion. He then later says:

Reck is the better lynch.

All in all, he's blindly bandwagoned me and has been able to fly under the radar for the most part, trying to repeat the same arguments others have used against me, except he completely misread the arguments and outed himself. Not to mention, he's flip-flopped multiple times on the reason WHY he's voting me. IMO, he's scum who saw an easy mislynch and tried to jump on board, but didn't realize he was jumping on board the WRONG person, and he's now been caught.

Unvote; Vote: Kcdaspot

[Umbrage]

GreyICE still fails. Read the posts more carefully, and I think my point will become clear. I don't know how I can explain it any better.

Nice to see you q21!

Is it just me, or has Reck's play so far been 'react to something said against him and then tunnel on the player that said it'?

I'm going to take a closer look at Esp. He was considered scummy by a lot of people earlier, but now seems to have been forgotten.

[Mariyta]

Tragedy has made a very similar observation and I'm inclined to agree with her.

UNVOTE: Llamarble, VOTE: Kcda

P-edit: Reck is one of the towniest players we have right now, despite the fact that his playstyle is a bit, as Kcda called it, abrasive.

[Thingyman]

VOTE: Kcdaspot