Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[Umbrage]

To those of you who legitimately find Esp/PO and GreyICE/Antihero scummy, can you please post actual cases on them? I've looked through the thread a couple times, but all I've found is people saying they look scummy/are being scummy without actually saying what's scummy. If you honestly think they're scum, I'd like to know why, because I just don't see it.

Finally, someone interested in actual cases.

My case on Grey and Antihero started when I noticed that although they've been posting frequently, they haven't really said anything useful beyond providing lists of who is paired with whom. It's more obvious with GreyICE because he's been posting more frequently. Look at his ISO. On page 2, between the end of his attack on EmpTyger and the start of his attack on me, he gives almost nothing. This is a huge part of the game we're talking about, the crap with Kise and Reck happened here. It's like he's not even there. They're obviously capable of aggressive play, but it appears they only choose to use it when I FoS them. Grey's best play was in the earlier stages of the game.

I wanted to write more, but I've left this post up for far too long, so I'll just send it.

Normally I'd laugh with Mariyta and Reck, but in this game, I'm not sure they're joking.

[Mariyta]

^^Scum.

Y'know, I was thinking the same thing.

And I'm also thinking that Kcda and q21 are not on the same scum team, but that's a discussion for another day.

[Antihero]

Why do you single out kcda in particular for buddying?

Because it looks to me like he's just doing it to get Kise's favor.

Do you see anyone else buddying Kise so blatantly?

Now, that said...

I don't like Kdca wagon. I don't know. Something just irks me I see in one page a lot of people sheeping each other and doing exactly what Kdca did all game.

...especially when the q21 wagon was hitting critical mass...

[q21]

^^Scum.

How so?

[Umbrage]

^^Scum.

Y'know, I was thinking the same thing.

And I'm also thinking that Kcda and q21 are not on the same scum team, but that's a discussion for another day.

Holy shit. You can not be serious.

Who the fuck are you, anyway? What gives you the fucking right to dismiss a long, well thought out post with a single word? In what universe does that make any fucking sense? Review Mafia 101, and you'll find that you have to *ahem* SHOW FUCKING REASONING THAT SHOWS PEOPLE ARE SCUMMY.

q21 is the best player in this game. He's the only one who isn't blatantly bandwagoning. And this makes him scummy? What the fuck are you thinking?

The same goes for the rest of you. You're either lurking or bandwagoning. So far, I haven't seen anyone display any signs of having read my posts. This is the most careless town I've ever laid eyes on. None of you care about this game.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

because your over-reaction to EVERYTHING is so pro-town.

[Tragedy]

Post #0: I'd be dodging any questions but Mariyta knows I'm town and might reply for me, but whatever. ScumScum?
Post #2: Truly overprotective, I mean, your lover is attacking GreyIce but Thingy disagrees. Seems weird in a funny way.
Post #8: When he/you mentioned "the better wagon" argument, it's quite true, for that means EmpTyger would be controlling 2/4th of the players and get 'em to lynch Player X / Target. About the nightless part, I just realized about it now.
Post #13: Interesting about Scenario 2. But wait, wouldn't it be faulty if you're going to speak with someone else other than your lover outside of the game? (QT doesn't count). Seems most likely possible that felt scummy, since Mafias/Werewolves can talk to the other Mafia/Werewolf Lovers...
Post #16: (Antihero Idea #1) Interesting, interesting. Antihero just saying "you're scum" doesn't cut it, for it is like a plain OMGUS as Umbrage mentioned. Derpherp. About Antihero's second quote, Umbrage

is

being somehow productive (not mainly).

Umbrage's post check-ups half-complete. Will go through more when I'm in a better mood.
It may include arguments and obvious statements. Just trying to read Umbrage better, though.

----
DBE: And so..? What does

that

idea conclude?

[Antihero]

q21 isn't bandwagoning?

Let's see: votes for reck and haylen based off other people's opinions? Sounds like blatant bandwagoning to me.

That's not a scumtell, BTW, just sayin'.

[xRECKONERx]

q21 is the best player in this game. He's the only one who isn't blatantly bandwagoning.

LOL

[GreyICE]

To those of you who legitimately find Esp/PO and GreyICE/Antihero scummy, can you please post actual cases on them? I've looked through the thread a couple times, but all I've found is people saying they look scummy/are being scummy without actually saying what's scummy. If you honestly think they're scum, I'd like to know why, because I just don't see it.

Finally, someone interested in actual cases.

My case on Grey and Antihero started when I noticed that although they've been posting frequently, they haven't really said anything useful beyond providing lists of who is paired with whom. It's more obvious with GreyICE because he's been posting more frequently. Look at his ISO. On page 2, between the end of his attack on EmpTyger and the start of his attack on me, he gives almost nothing. This is a huge part of the game we're talking about, the crap with Kise and Reck happened here. It's like he's not even there. They're obviously capable of aggressive play, but it appears they only choose to use it when I FoS them. Grey's best play was in the earlier stages of the game.

I wanted to write more, but I've left this post up for far too long, so I'll just send it.

Normally I'd laugh with Mariyta and Reck, but in this game, I'm not sure they're joking.

For your information, I didn't want to get involved because it was a factual debate. There is literally no point in debating facts - either they are true, or they are not. What am I going to do, jump in and go "oh, well, my completely uninformed opinion is that the

facts

Reck is presenting are true, and the

facts

Kise presented are indeed false?"

It appears, general consensus, that what Kise presented as fact was false. I mean seriously, what's the point of debating it at that time? Add a voice that knows nothing about those chats and logs to the situation? Now that I know that Kise presented to the town information that was clearly factually incorrect, I can decide how to proceed with that knowledge. But determining whether that information was factually correct? I added nothing whether I posted anything or not.

[EmpTyger]

Town:
Mafia and werewolves will try to demoralize us, make us not think things through, and prevent us from reaching consensus.
Don’t let them.

My top 4 suspect pairs are
Nero Cain/xRECKONERx
Antihero/GreyICE
DarlaBlueEyes/Llamarble
Espeonage/PurpleOrange

This differs significantly with my partner. I’m trying to resolve it privately with Thingy, because there’s no point both to us working at cross-purposes in-thread.

But I do not like the q21/Umbrage wagon.
Nor do I like the Baby Spice/Kcdaspot


Antihero:

Reckoner said that he allegedly didn’t know what the setup was.
Kise said that he and Reckoner allegedly discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
Reckoner denied doing so.
Kise was certain.
Reckoner posted logs allegedly showing that that didn’t happened.
Kise recanted to one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
{dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} have each denied doing so.

So, someone’s lying.

Great summary. Doesn't take into account that LAL sucks.

Fine. You present an alternate explanation that explains what they’ve said and done, that involves them all being innocent.
And if you’re going to argue, “Human memory = far from perfect”, then you need to account for the events of the thread, in particular the level of certainty Kise and Reckoner show.


Reckoner:
Also, why would an innocent Kise lie about that conversation? Given what he’s said, how could Kise be “misinformed” or “mistaken”?
He hasn’t ever said he didn’t have a conversation. All he did was (in response to evidence that seemed ironclad at the time but we’ve since learned could have been very easily doctored) maintain that he definitely had a conversation, and that it had to be with one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner}.

(And for someone who is so allegedly easily “set off”, you seem awfully willing to trot out the “it’s my playstyle, live with it” when it’s you. And don’t try to tell me that the mod’s okay with you when I see the modedits throughout your posts. And the mod’s not the only one.)

Also, why specifically do you read dramonic as innocent?


Darla:

Reck's posts are the most entertaining thing I've seen all week. I don't like Kise's could-be lie though. LaL has rarely failed in my experience and unless Kise can come up with a good reason for such a lie my vote may end up right there.

I realize I am useless but getting over the flu and catching up in several games slows a girl down. Have a little sympathy, yeah? I'll pick it up here soon

lol @ all of this

Kise's reaction and lack of explanation for the implied lying doesn't sit well with me. LaL. Always.

vote: Kise

That being said all of this arguing over a freaking chatlog is just full of WIFOM and not helping town one bit. I wouldn't be surprised if all of you perpetuating it were scum.

What changed between these posts? Moreover, how would you characterize what you were doing?

because your over-reaction to EVERYTHING is so pro-town.

Are Reckoner’s overreactions protown, to you?


GreyIce:

For your information, I didn't want to get involved because it was a factual debate. There is literally no point in debating facts - either they are true, or they are not. What am I going to do, jump in and go "oh, well, my completely uninformed opinion is that the

facts

Reck is presenting are true, and the

facts

Kise presented are indeed false?"

It appears, general consensus, that what Kise presented as fact was false. I mean seriously, what's the point of debating it at that time? Add a voice that knows nothing about those chats and logs to the situation? Now that I know that Kise presented to the town information that was clearly factually incorrect, I can decide how to proceed with that knowledge. But determining whether that information was factually correct? I added nothing whether I posted anything or not.

If your take on the situation (which I disagree with, but ignoring that for a second) is that

“what Kise presented as fact was false”

, and you believe that that’s the general consensus… then why haven’t you done anything with that?

But that’s not an accurate presentation of the “facts”. The “facts” include what q21 just showed: that Reckoner could have very, very easily edited his alleged “proof”.

GreyIce:

No, of course not. A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position? That feels less like 'a disagreement' and more like 'playing both sides' to me.

Huh? Here's the post in question:

Lover Claim: Umbrage

... and on that note.

Oh. My. God. You. SUCK!

Bitchslap Vote implosion

That said, I disagree with my lovers attack on Emptypger and happen to agree that GreyICE's tentative, wishy-washy-ness around the massclaim issue on page one was scummy, therefore.

Vote GreyICE

<--- That one's real.

And then this, don't forget:

@Espy: GreyICE is scum. He is just trying to make a case on someone who knows is easy to be lynched. He didn't read any posts in this thread but he is accusing you of that. Hypocritical scum.

So you think GreyICE is scum... but you're blindly sheeping reck to vote emp who is attacking GreyIce...

Right, you're scum too.

That one is much more fucking terrible, actually.

Um, that doesn’t change that “A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position” is flat out wrong. And you’re just as wrong about that second post. q21 isn’t attacking vezok because vezok voted me or suspected you. He’s attacking vezok because vezok was taking contradictory positions. There’s no 180, because q21 and Umbrage are talking about 2 different issues.

[GreyICE]

GreyIce:

For your information, I didn't want to get involved because it was a factual debate. There is literally no point in debating facts - either they are true, or they are not. What am I going to do, jump in and go "oh, well, my completely uninformed opinion is that the

facts

Reck is presenting are true, and the

facts

Kise presented are indeed false?"

It appears, general consensus, that what Kise presented as fact was false. I mean seriously, what's the point of debating it at that time? Add a voice that knows nothing about those chats and logs to the situation? Now that I know that Kise presented to the town information that was clearly factually incorrect, I can decide how to proceed with that knowledge. But determining whether that information was factually correct? I added nothing whether I posted anything or not.

If your take on the situation (which I disagree with, but ignoring that for a second) is that

“what Kise presented as fact was false”

, and you believe that that’s the general consensus… then why haven’t you done anything with that?

But that’s not an accurate presentation of the “facts”. The “facts” include what q21 just showed: that Reckoner could have very, very easily edited his alleged “proof”.

Sigh, I hate text walls. Oh well, might as well respond to this.

I believe Kise admitting that he very well could have been mistaken in his recollection is as good as saying that Reckoner was telling the truth. Is it a mathematical proof? No, but I'd say that if we're going to be asinine about it, preponderance of the evidence points to Reckoner being accurate. Why am I not pursuing it further? Well, he went about it in a somewhat pro-town way.

Lovers Multiball is in there. I refuse to believe your back and forth with Grey wasn't forced as a way to claim ignorance, and wtfx---- is the name I talked to during signups. Unvote; Vote: xRECKONERx Simple shit here, people. A town flip of one means you lynch the other. Start with me or him, whatever.

Implosion-Kise are pinging my "scumdar" a bit, but frankly, I am not worried about it right now. He's a lot more town than Umbrage/q21 and kcdaspot/Baby Spice. No, really, go review the ISO of that last pair.

[GreyICE]

BTW, I consider a 'text wall' and a 'long post' fundamentally different. A text wall attempts to stop you from reading it in any way, shape or form. Those sorts of quote/one line, quote/one line definitely succeeds at that.

[silavor]

q21 is the best player in this game. He's the only one who isn't blatantly bandwagoning. And this makes him scummy? What the fuck are you thinking?

q21 has made 11 posts. Half of them are bandwagoning. Yes, he has shown signs of intelligent thought in his more recent posts, but that doesn't mean you can go shouting at us about how q21 is the best player ever, and how he never bandwagons ever, and how he's a shinging paragon of loyalty, chivalry, and sheer scum-pwning awesomeness. You want us to believe q21 is the best player in this game? Take your own advice, and

prove it.

[Purple Orange]

Because it looks to me like he's just doing it to get Kise's favor.

Do you see anyone else buddying Kise so blatantly?

I actually don't see how his post is any worse (well, aside from his complete failure to grasp the issue) than the rest of the people who were picking a side in this thing. Mariyta's 200? Espy's 302? Umbrage's 316? (leaving out dram, as I'm told that's a special case). LOL, what about

me

saying I read Reck as sincere? People have been calling people town all thread, and sometimes very strongly.

I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.

Do you consider that to be mindlessly sheeping, blindly sheeping, some other kind of sheeping, or NOT sheeping?

@ PO

The scumminess about q21 has already been outlined by other ppl - and I agree that it looks level 1 scummy.

So did you agree with all of it? Part of it? What parts?

Does anyone who is not Umbrage want a history of the scummy things he's done? Or were my earlier posts on the subject quite enough?

Actually, I'd appreciate a nice clean bulletpoint summary free from histrionics.

[Thingyman]

@ PO

I agree with all of it.

PO, are you known for being a good scum? Do you make long and thoughtful posts in all of your games?

[Umbrage]

For your information, I didn't want to get involved because it was a factual debate. There is literally no point in debating facts - either they are true, or they are not. What am I going to do, jump in and go "oh, well, my completely uninformed opinion is that the facts Reck is presenting are true, and the facts Kise presented are indeed false?"

It appears, general consensus, that what Kise presented as fact was false. I mean seriously, what's the point of debating it at that time? Add a voice that knows nothing about those chats and logs to the situation? Now that I know that Kise presented to the town information that was clearly factually incorrect, I can decide how to proceed with that knowledge. But determining whether that information was factually correct? I added nothing whether I posted anything or not.

This post is bullshit. Clearly, both people cannot be right, therefore one must be wrong. Facts do not contradict one another. If it's a fact that the world is round, it cannot be a fact that it is flat. There is no excuse for being uninformed. Read over their posts, ask them questions, then deduce who is lying. Because that's all you need to do: figure out who is lying. Don't take other people's word for what is happening, that is horrible play.

[GreyICE]

This post is bullshit. Clearly, both people cannot be right, therefore one must be wrong. Facts do not contradict one another. If it's a fact that the world is round, it cannot be a fact that it is flat. There is no excuse for being uninformed. Read over their posts, ask them questions, then deduce who is lying. Because that's all you need to do: figure out who is lying. Don't take other people's word for what is happening, that is horrible play.

And the situation looked to be playing out exactly like that. Honestly, I don't feel this overwhelming jump into every situation that's resolving itself just to prove that I have the biggest cock in this forum. It just stirs shit up by annoying people, muddies the issue, and accomplishes nothing. Some things can and do resolve without my involvement.

If you think that's fucking terrible play, well, I take that as gospel from an unbiased reviewer who definitely knows what they're talking about, Dolores.

[Purple Orange]

So far, I haven't seen anyone display any signs of having read my posts.

* I disagree with your case on Reck, but it's rational. Just took a while (and some posts from Emp and q21) for the thought process of your position to get completely laid out and the gaps filled in.

* Are there any additional reasons you find Reck scummy, independent of the "one of them has to be lying" reason?

* If there's any OMGUS-style stuff, it starts when you chainsaw-defend for your lover by FoS-ing Grey/Anti. Either way, I could care less, as there's no law that says, "thou canst not attack a scummy person who didst first attack thee."

* I found your early defense of Grey, then of me, strange. I

can

buy Grey's argument that it was calculated and deliberate. Pattern doesn't continue, though, so, meh.

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

Confused here. Does the "mistake" refer to Kise mixing up Reck and Nero?

=============

Um, that doesn’t change that “A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position” is flat out wrong. And you’re just as wrong about that second post. q21 isn’t attacking vezok because vezok voted me or suspected you. He’s attacking vezok because vezok was taking contradictory positions. There’s no 180, because q21 and Umbrage are talking about 2 different issues.

^THIS.

=============

PO, are you known for being a good scum? Do you make long and thoughtful posts in all of your games?

Maybe against weak to average players in 24hr cycle games? Not much experience with either side when it comes to these three-week-day games. I've completed one pretty good scum game where I had almost everyone thinking I was obvtown, and one absolutely horrid one where I screwed over my team with my scumminess and poor choice of night action. I tend to post long and thoughtfulish posts regardless of alignment.

[Baby Spice]

Not much damage, though the community garden at the church is pretty much a write off and I got lots of kids at home due to flooded schools
Though a few houses in the area got flooded. Kinda funny. Two years ago today we were watching the embers fly over the house from the black friday fires thinking the house was going to burn, three days ago that it would be flooded. Lost houses in the area that day too.
Love Australia

Oh wow, you guys speak loads. I could get behind a massclaim, but I would like to see Baby Spices opinion on it first.

Why me?

Still wondering.

Hmm, I may have to adopt that one myself. I kinda dislike calling people "scum." Wolves seems a lot... nicer somehow. Okay, I'm stealing it! Wolves it is.
<- will slip within the next day or two

I can't help but think that if greyIce is part of the WW scum team he just tried to buy himself some wolfslip insurance.

*puts some popcorn in the microwave*
*waits for Reck's reaction*

he hasn't found Dramonic's post yet.
*popcorn*

GreyIce, why are you trying to bait xReck? Either you're pushing hoping for a modkill, or pushing hoping he'll get himself lynched. As far as I'm concerned, both are scummy.

I assume by ISO #7 you mean my 7th post in the thread?

In that case: I was for the mass claim the entire time. The reason that I didn't actually state it right away is because my lover (EmpTyger) said that we wanted to preferably see who was going to support it first or if anyone who knew better opposed it. Basically, he wanted to be able to get reads from the discussion (which I agree was a good idea).

Grey:

Also I really smell a mass lovers claim coming on at some point.

That doesn't sound like

"I suggest a mass claim so we know who we're lynching"

.
That sounds like someone who hopes it won't happen, but figures it will, so is going to get early credit while doing little to nothing to actually have one happen.

Vote: GreyICE

Thingy, Emptyger. Those two quotes don't line up.

Emp. You're basically saying that GreyIce is scummy for something that your lover has just said that you thought yourself.

For the record: Kise is accusing you of admitting you are scum over a IM? or the other way around?
either role sharing is bad if I recall and SOMEONE would have gotten ejected from the game (if i'm right)

RTFG

Am I the only one that has noticed GreyICE has posted almost nothing remotely useful?

Nope

Vote GreyIce

Scummy actions and empty posts.

FOS Thingy/Emp

Also sounds like scum to me.

[Espeonage]

Ouch, all we had was a giant heatwave and couldn't sleep.

Unvote

[xRECKONERx]

Also, why would an innocent Kise lie about that conversation? Given what he’s said, how could Kise be “misinformed” or “mistaken”?
He hasn’t ever said he didn’t have a conversation. All he did was (in response to evidence that seemed ironclad at the time but we’ve since learned could have been very easily doctored) maintain that he definitely had a conversation, and that it had to be with one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner}.

HOW could he be misinformed or mistaken? HOW!? ARE YOU REALLY ASKING ME HOW? Oh my god you are so fucking retarded.

At first, his entire case and HARDCORE PUSHING ME FOR A LYNCH was based on the fact that he said he had hardcore proof that I was lying. When I refuted that, it became "oh well it was with someone else". Now please stop harping on this, not only are you fucking retarded for doing so, but it's not helping town at all. You're repeating things billions of other people have said, and I've responded to it already, so learn to read and stop harping on old, outdated shit.

(And for someone who is so allegedly easily “set off”, you seem awfully willing to trot out the “it’s my playstyle, live with it” when it’s you. And don’t try to tell me that the mod’s okay with you when I see the modedits throughout your posts. And the mod’s not the only one.)

What the fuck is this even about? Shut the fuck up. I had a private conversation with the mod where he SAID "I have an aggressive playstyle too" and basically just told me he only had a problem with the Haylen insults.

Also, why specifically do you read dramonic as innocent?

I can read dram better than anyone else here. And he's playing pro-town, by at least trying and not lurking… and I know you might think he's lurking, but LOOK AT HIS OTHER GAMES. This is called dram giving an effort.

PO, are you known for being a good scum? Do you make long and thoughtful posts in all of your games?

Wat.

[Kcdaspot]

shoot. forgot to UNVOTE: in my last post.

My apologizes... I had honestly thought reck was scummy by "over persuing". I thought that was scummy because I saw it as a attempt to make something not outwardly scummy, scummy, and I ended up doing the same thing myself

From here on out I'll be using my lover advice and "RTFG" so i can help catch scum.

Honestly this game moves at a page every 12 hours but I'm going to put my best into this for the towns sake.

[EmpTyger]

Baby Spice:
I didn’t think GreyIce suspicious (initially) because he was proclaim. It was because he *said* he was proclaim, but then took anticlaim *actions*.

I did tell Thingy pregame that we’d get information from who supported the claim, as well as who opposed it when they should know better. But that wasn’t instead of supporting the claim- in fact, I said that if the claim failed, we’d have bigger problems because of the implications that had regarding the town.


GreyIce:

BTW, I consider a 'text wall' and a 'long post' fundamentally different. A text wall attempts to stop you from reading it in any way, shape or form. Those sorts of quote/one line, quote/one line definitely succeeds at that.

How would you like me to rebut you, if you say X happens and it’s clearly demonstrable that it didn’t?

(Incidentally, let’s say, purely hypothetically, of course, that some players thought that a certain player’s derogative, profanity-laden abuse was succeeding at stopping them from reading the thread in any way, shape, or form. I’m sure you’d feel the same way, and would say so, right?)


Reckoner:
I really don’t care what you *claim* the mod allegedly told you. I’m going to go by the same things that every single player in this game can plainly see for ourselves:
What the mod put in their ruleset.
What the mod reiterated in that large-fonted post.
The “[edited - Sens]” that the mod had to revise your posts with (and only your posts, almost without exception).

What you’re doing doesn’t help the town:
It doesn’t help the town reach consensus.
It doesn’t help the town think through issues rationally.

As for the Kise/you situation, once again:
You haven’t refuted anything. (It’s been shown how easy your “proof” could have been edited.)
You haven’t shown how Kise could be innocently misinformed. (If he’s misinformed, it means that you, dramonic, or Nero lied.)
You haven’t shown how Kise could be innocent mistaken. (He’s consistently insisted that a conversation happened.)

[q21]

I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.

Do you consider that to be mindlessly sheeping, blindly sheeping, some other kind of sheeping, or NOT sheeping?

Definitely sheeping. Considered sheeping with a side of lazy sheeping. But sheeping none the less, to say otherwise would be bullshit.

Ouch, all we had was a giant heatwave and couldn't sleep.

Unvote

Wait, so in many of your most recent posts you comments have been along the lines of the kcd wagon being good, so good in fact that you didn't want to make any other cases because you didn't want to distract from the awesome kcd wagon. A wagon you were sure is on scum. And now you jump off that wagon with no reason offered for changing your mind. Not even a mention of that other case you were thinking about making.

This seems scummy to me.

Unvote, Vote Espy