Newbie 1046: Game Over

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Yes, I believe there is at least one Town powerrole out there. That's all I have to say on the subject.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP 2: Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

[StefanB]

Haylen wrote:

Btw, just for info guys. It's really poor form to lynch somebody whilst they're V/LA, it's one of those few things that make me yell in a game.

Not that I wouldn't suscripe to that, generally. (I would make an exaption for deadline, that sucks to for the player but is somethink that may be necessary) At the same time I don't think you should ignore someone completly because he is V/LA.
No the question i how did you mean that, as warning for the whole town (understandable) or to critice Ghostlins vote. (which is not even near lynch)

Ghostlin wrote:

What AP didn't say was much more interesting then what he did.

Hm? Don't really understand that sentence. I am still quite sure in my vote on AP (if not I would have unvoted), and I thought his defence wasn't that great. Points he has cleared not very much. What he didn't say, hm claim doctor? That would not have worked.

Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

Notice and guilty of it to. The problem with having one vote and not using FOS. What is really interesting is how Zach is doing it. He is just using little remarks without really making it clear if he thinks some thinks are strange, potential bad play (everone makes mistakes) or scummy. Corrious.

At all:

I feel kind of bad for Nocmen. He made a lot of work and asked questions to ever player in post 235 and 238 but a lot of you didn't answer him, that's not nice.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP 2: Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

I have not used the FOS since 2009. It's based on the ridiculous notion of formalizing suspicion that has already been stated. You'll find a few other players on this site who do not ever use it either.

Regardless I always get weary whenever someone seems to be fishing for roles but doesn't seem have a top suspect. You had previously stated that you found AwesomePoe more actively suspicious and the only thing that has changed between then and now is that he is now claimed vanilla. This is not a valid reason to unvote someone after you've found them suspicious enough to run up to a claim.

It amounts to a very blatant form of rolefishing. The point of this game is to lynch scum, not find power roles.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP. Edit in bold.

EBWOP 2: Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

I have not used the FOS since 2009. It's based on the ridiculous notion of formalizing suspicion that has already been stated. You'll find a few other players on this site who do not ever use it either.

Regardless I always get weary whenever someone seems to be fishing for roles but doesn't seem

to

have a top suspect. You had previously stated that you found AwesomePoe more actively suspicious and the only thing that has changed between then and now is that he is now claimed vanilla. This is not a valid reason to unvote someone after you've found them suspicious enough to run up to a claim.

It amounts to a very blatant form of rolefishing. The point of this game is to lynch scum, not find power roles.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP. Edit in bold.

EBWOP 2: Just a curious off top thing: does anyone but me notice Zach's got a vote on AP, but is trying to, at the same time, arouse suspicion on both me and Haylen without as much as an FoS?

I have not used the FOS since 2009. It's based on the ridiculous notion of formalizing suspicion that has already been stated. You'll find a few other players on this site who do not ever use it either.

Regardless I always get weary whenever someone seems to be fishing for roles but doesn't seem

to

have a top suspect. You had previously stated that you found AwesomePoe more actively suspicious and the only thing that has changed between then and now is that he is now claimed vanilla. This is not a valid reason to unvote someone after you've found them suspicious enough to run up to a claim.

It amounts to a very blatant form of rolefishing. The point of this game is to lynch scum, not find power roles.

Apparently you and I didn't read the same post, because he didn't claim vanilla at all. He claimed

Town

. I could quote it for you:

I claim Town, and when I flip Town you will be sure.

I chose not to keep my vote as a prod to preserve a possible power role that you're going on about. He could be claiming VT there, he could be scum claiming anything; but the fact that he refused to give away his claim part and parcel interested me.

I'm fine with you not FoSing, but for crying out loud, at least take a stand and give us your scum suspects and reasons why instead of placing a million barbs at other people's play.

[GLaDOS]

Day Two Vote Count #6

3 AwesomePoe (StefanB, hurristat, Zachrulez)
3 hurristat (Nobody Special, Nocmen, Ghostlin)
1 Nobody Special (AwesomePoe)
1 Zachrulez (Haylen)

With

8

alive it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is February 11 at 8:30 PM CST.

Not Voting – 0 – Nobody

Mod Note:

Nobody Special replaces Deer.

[StefanB]

Welcome Nobody Special (Kind of hope that we get Somebody Special )

Ghostlin: The townclaim hm. Sorry but puh, I think a full claim would be better here.
Good luck whit your case on Hurristat.

Okay game makes my head hurt in the moment.

[Ghostlin]

Welcome Nobody Special (Kind of hope that we get Somebody Special )

Ghostlin: The townclaim hm. Sorry but puh, I think a full claim would be better here.
Good luck whit your case on Hurristat.

Okay game makes my head hurt in the moment.

Acutally, I'm working on something else, or looking at someone else at the moment, but I thank you for the wishes.

[Nobody Special]

Hi, everyone. I will do my very best to read this thread today, but Sundays are normally especially busy for me. If I don't post today, I promise all sorts of delicious posting tomorrow.

And,

unvote

[Nocmen]

Welcome to the game, Nobody Special.

Ghost, what do you mean by post 333? You're planning a case on someone, that's not Zach or Hurristat? Or am I just reading that post and Stefan's wrong.

[Ghostlin]

Welcome to the game, Nobody Special.

Ghost, what do you mean by post 333? You're planning a case on someone, that's not Zach or Hurristat? Or am I just reading that post and Stefan's wrong.

I'm not making an additional case on hurristat right now, I am looking at a PBP of Zach, there are a few things that are concerning about his play.

[Ghostlin]

PBP ISO of Zachrulez:

ISO 0-1: Posts who's scum, and goes 'it's easier to just ask.': Seems to be a way to flake out of an opinion.
ISO 2: Twitches at hurristat's doctor fishing comment.
ISO 3: Goes after Haylen. It's not a bad argument, although Haylen does address it later. No vote, tho'.
ISO 4: Probably in response to Hurristat; naked doctor fishing.
ISO 5: Rides Haylen again. Still no vote. If you find the L-1 scummy, then vote her.
ISO 6: Against AP; probably the closest thing to a case we have against him from Zach.
ISO 7: fluff
ISO 8: Promises to hold Haylen to her posts tomorrow. This is just shy of voting her.
ISO 9: Responds to Nocmen re: Haylen (apparently he was misquoted)

ISO 10: Ironically, if you were to count the amount of times he rides Haylen versus AP, you'd think he'd be voting Haylen.
Also mentions he likes a hurri lynch here, but only has gone after him twice. Count of posts building to a Haylen vote: 3,
a Hurristat vote: 2, if you count him going after hurristat with the misquote, and only 1 against AP.

ISO 11: "Who do you think is the most likely scum on the WIR wagon?" The WIR wagon only consisted of four people:
(AwesomePoe, Ghostlin, StefanB, Haylen). This could be a gateway to accuse any of these people. In addition, the question is
never really brought to a head again, which makes you think about it. (Yes, the fifth vote is missing. Unfortunately, we
already know WIR isn't scum.) It's also interesting, because there's a not bad chance that no one is scum on the WIR wagon,
it's less than 1/2 town, and not even a lynch majority. The question also makes us analyze that wagon and no other. Since
chkflip wasn't on the WIR wagon, it deflects attention from his spot.

ISO 12: Good argument against AP; however, I found this interesting:
"Comparing indistinguishable lurkers and trying to give them different reads..." Is doctor speculation the only reason you like
hurri-scum over nikita-scum? If so, why isn't nikita-scum higher on your radar? You don't mention Nikita or his replacement
at all in any of your reads or question him. Why?

ISO 13: He's doing OK until the second paragraph, which really concerns me. This seems to be a shell of an argument not to
analyze what they did do in Day 1, as in it doesn't matter. This worries me, because chkflip made only one substantial post
Day 1 (about) and then disappeared.

ISO 14: This would be more credible if Zach didn't seem to do the same thing. A lot of his tactics cast a wide net. He says he
likes the wagons of the top two scum picks of Day 1; but forms the skeleton for a Haylen case as well.

ISO 16: This almost contradicts ISO 11 indirectly. I say almost because he uses the word vote counts, and he did bandwagon
analysis (which has the same effect that I pointed out with AP's vote counts; it allows for a large net, form cases that some
one could go back to later, and seemingly clear his slot).

Also, he's kinda going after Haylen again here (or at least her reasoning).

ISO 17: It wasn't scummy or town, but a null for the vote counts. This also somewhat contradicts ISO 12, if you think about it,
becaue he says that trying to give lurkers different reads was scummy, when indeed the biggest piece of analysis came from the
vote count graph.

ISO 19: Except you've questioned her about different specific things about her playstyle with suspicion 4 or 5 times now Zach.
Your reads mirror what town already have. You refused to make a case on AP at first, and then your primary point is on the
doctor speculation. I still don't get why AP>Hurristat in your opinion.

ISO 20: Mentions my vote. Doesn't do anything about it, and I myself said I was blowing a wad of towncred doing it.

ISO 21: Claims AP claimed Vanilla; accuses me of PR fishing. This seems like a delibrate misrep of what AP acutally said; and looks
like a way to lampshade a case on me. Mentions he doesn't like FoS because it's a formalizing of suspicions that should be in the thread.
ISO 22 is just a edit of ISO 21.

Here's my analysis, in a nutshell of the game sitaution:

AP didn't claim a specific role in his last post. There are a variety of reasons why he might do this. I'm not going to get into
all of them, you're all intelligent people, you can figure it out all the possibilites. When I say I believe AP, I actually don't.
I believe in the following:
1) Town has at least one powerrole. No, I'm not looking for it. I don't care. The fact we might have folks doing some of the work to stymie the scum is acutally enough.
2) There are two, perhaps three different good suspects town has right now for scum.
3) AP has dug himself a trap if he's not a powerrole: he's only got so much a chance to choose one that someone else doesn't have when massclaim rolls around.
4) The next few reveals will help confirm the setup if we've got any chance of hitting non-townie folk.

Personally, I think AP, if scum has made an awesome mistake, if town could be a useful ally. I don't want to interrupt the first, and I don't want to slit our wrists on the second.

I don't like Zach's play that much to be honest. The fact that chkflip had been pretty much lurking and posted not much real stuff concerns me.

I will be doing a similar analysis for hurristat, but I will

FoS: Zach

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP:

When I say I believe AP, I actually don't.

This is a bit of hyperbole. I'm not lying to town when I typed this, but what I mean is I don't believe with 100% that AP is town. The only one I can really believe is town is the man I see in the mirror when I shave.

[Zachrulez]

You can make anyone look scummy with a PBPA.

We should be lynching AwesomePoe, running someone else up at this point is suboptimal.

And yes Ghostlin, you're looking suspect now because you just seem interested in getting someone to claim power. As far as I can tell that's still the only reason you've unvoted AwesomePoe, (I don't care for the wordplay, I see the timing coming immediately after the claim.) and you suddenly find me suspicious now for questioning your play. (If you want to attack someone who's questioning your play, a PBPA is a great way to do that.)

And Poe did claim vanilla. Town is interchangeable with townie which is interchangeable with Vanilla townie.

[Zachrulez]

I can't see why you suddenly shifted your vote away from Poe either. All he did was claim and tack on a lurker vote. (Going to a wagon most likely to get attention outside of the attention he's already gotten.)

Since that post, he hasn't bothered to post anything else so...

[Ghostlin]

You can make anyone look scummy with a PBPA.

We should be lynching AwesomePoe, running someone else up at this point is suboptimal.

And yes Ghostlin, you're looking suspect now because you just seem interested in getting someone to claim power. As far as I can tell that's still the only reason you've unvoted AwesomePoe, (I don't care for the wordplay, I see the timing coming immediately after the claim.) and you suddenly find me suspicious now for questioning your play. (If you want to attack someone who's questioning your play, a PBPA is a great way to do that.)

And Poe did claim vanilla. Town is interchangeable with townie which is interchangeable with Vanilla townie.

So your defense is that you can make anyone look scummy with a post-by-post analysis? Not only is that not a defense, the defense makes you look more scummy along with suspecting half of town. Saying things like 'well, I don't use FoS's because I'd rather have abject suspicion, vote analysis is a null tell, and you can tell anyone's scummy with a PBPA' (all of which have been said by you) are pretty much hidden ways to dissuade anything in depth scum hunting. Because two of the ways the process is done, you don't like, and the third is a null tell.

You've been blase about scum hunting from the word go; asking us who we think is scum, you've lamp shaded four different cases while voting for the most popular wagon, and you've actively tried to undermine whatever processes we have tried to use to scumhunt in this town. While I think Haylen doesn't have the strongest of cases, I think she may in fact, be on the right track.

unvote

Vote: Zachrulez

[StefanB]

Hm, defending oneself by trying to make clear why you did some thinks, doesn't seem to be standard anymore.
Cases:

AP whole day 2.
Ghostlin: The Nocmenpoints
Zach: Ghostlins atack.

My vote on AP stays, make an exeption for deadlinereasons to avoid a no lynch, but that's the only then.

I can see some of Ghostlins points, and I can see Zach to become a candidate tomorrow.

Ghostlin:

I don't like Zach's play that much to be honest. The fact that chkflip had been pretty much lurking and posted not much real stuff concerns me.

First sentence yes. Second sentence, if you ignore that Chkflip had those problem sidewhide at this time, and that's screams RL than it becomes null.

On the other hand Ghostlin I think you are wrong in the point that AP hinted at a powerrole and we should leave him allive forthat reason. Sorry that's very wide speculation and gave scum to much power if done regulary.

Other question I would still like an answer to: Haylen you think that AP is not scum, why? (Yes I'm repeating Ghostlin's question, I asked the same think but a lot more complicated, so I take the easy version)

[Zachrulez]

AP didn't claim a specific role in his last post. There are a variety of reasons why he might do this. I'm not going to get into
all of them, you're all intelligent people, you can figure it out all the possibilites. When I say I believe AP, I actually don't.
I believe in the following:
1) Town has at least one powerrole.

No, I'm not looking for it.

I don't care. The fact we might have folks doing some of the work to stymie the scum is acutally enough.
2) There are two, perhaps three different good suspects town has right now for scum.
3) AP has dug himself a trap if he's not a powerrole: he's only got so much a chance to choose one that someone else doesn't have when massclaim rolls around.
4) The next few reveals will help confirm the setup if we've got any chance of hitting non-townie folk.

1 and 4 do not resolve together. (4 is rolefishing again, and in addition there's no way to confirm the setup either with claims or lynch.) The bolded reeks of inside knowledge. (A town power role flip or claim WILL confirm the setup for scum, but not town.) Which makes me wonder when you accuse me of suspecting half the town with your use of the word town if you in fact know that I suspect half the town because you know the alignment of the players I'm suspecting.

You claim you're not looking for power roles, but 4 seems to indicate otherwise. Also in addition to point 2, I suspect you want to go through those 2 or three good suspects to get every role claim you can get to organize your night actions.

Unvote: Vote: Ghostlin

^ THAT is scumhunting.

[Zachrulez]

I'm gonna go through the PBP now

[Zachrulez]

PBP ISO of Zachrulez:

ISO 0-1: Posts who's scum, and goes 'it's easier to just ask.': Seems to be a way to flake out of an opinion.
ISO 2: Twitches at hurristat's doctor fishing comment.
ISO 3: Goes after Haylen. It's not a bad argument, although Haylen does address it later. No vote, tho'.
ISO 4: Probably in response to Hurristat; naked doctor fishing.
ISO 5: Rides Haylen again. Still no vote. If you find the L-1 scummy, then vote her.
ISO 6: Against AP; probably the closest thing to a case we have against him from Zach.
ISO 7: fluff
ISO 8: Promises to hold Haylen to her posts tomorrow. This is just shy of voting her.
ISO 9: Responds to Nocmen re: Haylen (apparently he was misquoted)

I don't think this is worth responding to. Mostly I'm getting attacked here for not voting or posting in a way that "is expected."

ISO 10: Ironically, if you were to count the amount of times he rides Haylen versus AP, you'd think he'd be voting Haylen.
Also mentions he likes a hurri lynch here, but only has gone after him twice. Count of posts building to a Haylen vote: 3,
a Hurristat vote: 2, if you count him going after hurristat with the misquote, and only 1 against AP.

How does the amount of times I point out an interesting post or mention someone equate to voting them? I don't get it.

ISO 11: "Who do you think is the most likely scum on the WIR wagon?" The WIR wagon only consisted of four people:
(AwesomePoe, Ghostlin, StefanB, Haylen). This could be a gateway to accuse any of these people. In addition, the question is
never really brought to a head again, which makes you think about it. (Yes, the fifth vote is missing. Unfortunately, we
already know WIR isn't scum.) It's also interesting, because there's a not bad chance that no one is scum on the WIR wagon,
it's less than 1/2 town, and not even a lynch majority. The question also makes us analyze that wagon and no other. Since
chkflip wasn't on the WIR wagon, it deflects attention from his spot.

With a day 1 lynch, it's very typical that at least one scum is on the wagon, it's also a reasonable possibility that both scum are on tje wagon. It's extremely difficult to get 4-5 townies to agree on a lynch without scum propelling a bandwagon. In this respect, town wagons that are completely town driven is extremely rare.

ISO 12: Good argument against AP; however, I found this interesting:
"Comparing indistinguishable lurkers and trying to give them different reads..." Is doctor speculation the only reason you like
hurri-scum over nikita-scum? If so, why isn't nikita-scum higher on your radar? You don't mention Nikita or his replacement
at all in any of your reads or question him. Why?

Two indistinguishable lurkers vs a lurker who committed a wiki tell. (One I have caught scum with in newbie games too.) This suspicion was offset by later posts by Hurristat that gave me a gut town read.

ISO 13: He's doing OK until the second paragraph, which really concerns me. This seems to be a shell of an argument not to
analyze what they did do in Day 1, as in it doesn't matter. This worries me, because chkflip made only one substantial post
Day 1 (about) and then disappeared.

Not exactly what I said. I said they didn't do anything that stood out to me, which means that I looked at their isos and didn't really see anything that stood out as suspicious. This makes them null reads for me. The third paragraph should have indicated that, this attack makes me suspicious as I don't see how you can characterize my position the way you did after reading that. (Cause how can I say what I did in the third paragraph without looking at their ISOs?)

ISO 14: This would be more credible if Zach didn't seem to do the same thing. A lot of his tactics cast a wide net. He says he
likes the wagons of the top two scum picks of Day 1; but forms the skeleton for a Haylen case as well.

Well if it helps to know where I'm at now. I'd be happy with an Awesomepoe wagon or a Ghostlin wagon, and would be willing to run up Haylen as a third choice as well if I couldn't get a lynch on either you or Poe. I don't particularly want to lynch Hurristat.

ISO 16: This almost contradicts ISO 11 indirectly. I say almost because he uses the word vote counts, and he did bandwagon
analysis (which has the same effect that I pointed out with AP's vote counts; it allows for a large net, form cases that some
one could go back to later, and seemingly clear his slot).

Also, he's kinda going after Haylen again here (or at least her reasoning).

I was going after the reasoning, it's faulty. That doesn't contradict 11. You even admit that. You cast a crafty little veil of wordplay by saying it ALMOST contradicts. Almost isn't contradicting btw. Almost is a nice little word to plant contradiction in someone's head where there isn't actually one. Like how there isn't a contradiction here.

ISO 17: It wasn't scummy or town, but a null for the vote counts. This also somewhat contradicts ISO 12, if you think about it,
becaue he says that trying to give lurkers different reads was scummy, when indeed the biggest piece of analysis came from the
vote count graph.

Trying to give lurkers two different reads is scummy when there's no real reason to give them two different reads.

ISO 20: Mentions my vote. Doesn't do anything about it, and I myself said I was blowing a wad of towncred doing it.

I don't control your vote. I did point out that it was a poor move, even scummy. Don't know what more I can do then that short of voting you. (Which seems to be a good idea right now considering your run someone up to claim/unvote run someone else up to claim/unvote, repeat ect.)

ISO 21: Claims AP claimed Vanilla; accuses me of PR fishing. This seems like a delibrate misrep of what AP acutally said; and looks
like a way to lampshade a case on me. Mentions he doesn't like FoS because it's a formalizing of suspicions that should be in the thread.
ISO 22 is just a edit of ISO 21.

You claim town without claiming a power role, you're claiming vanilla. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

[AwesomePoe]

Since NobodySpeical has replaced in, I am removing my S&G vote on his position, but will revisit based on play.

Unvote

I’m reading Zach as scum for a few reason. I’ve gone through why Zach’s vote on me is scummy because it was a rushed L-1 vote. I also wasnt to point out Ziso11, in it he asks who on the WIR wagon is more scummy. If he didn’t know he should know now that I considered the scumminess of Haylen’s L-1 vote who was on the WIR wagon. I also heavily attacked StefenB’s voting pattern D1. However the cflip position was not on that wagon. That would leave him out of the question, while having me reiterate queries that were not effective.

In Ziso15 he says I misinterpreted what he meant to say but has yet to make his own clarification. He instead insists that make a firm stance on the Deer position. So instead of making his words clear, he would prefer me to make a case for Town Deer or Scum Deer, which I could not make. This was one of the reasons he saw me scummy, the fact that I made the point to say that the cflip position was still scummy but also gave a neutral status to the nikit position. There was one major difference in play, the fact that cflip voted and nikit did not, in fact could not since he asked to be replaced and made it clear why he had to be replaced.

Look at his bolding comments pattern. It’s an ineffectual way of making a defense, because its not. It only flags comments he doesn’t like without addressing the core argument.

After Ghostlin unvoted we see Zach casting mud on Ghostlin. I saw Ghostlin’s unvoting of WIR behavior D1 and called him on it. His unvoting then was not anti-town and it is not now. Ghostlin is playing for a certain condition where a mass claim could expose all scum via a chain of claims. The four points he makes are consistent with Ghostlin’s play throughout the game.

@ Zach: what wagon? There is none on the Deer position. There never was. If you really were at all concerned about the Deer position you would have done something about it. Ghostlin does not have inside knowledge. You are bolding a sentence out of context and ignoring the sentence before.
Also your vote is not scumhunting.

I would feel comfortable lynching Zach. For now I will put him at L-2.

Vote Zach

[Zachrulez]

Clarification to iso 15 is that I never actually said lurking was scummy, I said I could understand suspicion on the deer slot even though I might not necessarily agree with said suspicion.

[Zachrulez]

Also answer for me why voting vs not voting is a major difference and why one is more suspect than the other? (I would actually say not voting is a safer scum position.)

[StefanB]

Congratulation to AwesomePoe he managed to make his waggon almost disapere by not posting and being not concrete at the right time.
Zach and Ghostlin don't make the lynch stop that is most logical. Voting for each other doesn't help if you are both town.

Yes town has a slight chance to confirme the setup, but that would be luck, getting the roleblocker.

So now to the defence of Zach:
0-9 have to give him that different playstyle is not scum.
If you post quite some content, the fact that you posted a bit of fluff is not so important.
Will not go at all points, but at the beggining that's some of the very weak attacks.

My lynch candidates: AwesomePoe
I won't hate to lynch Hurristat
Not lynching: Ghostlin, even if I think he is wrong at the moment like hell.
Susspicios: Haylen and Zach

What I dislike: Atacking everthink some posts, even if they are scum, normaly that just makes the good points weaker.

At all: We should perhaps not start new waggons, we are near deadline, we need a lynch.