Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Nachomamma8]

And for the record, she is definitely not Godfather.

Of course not. You are Godfather now!

Gonnano wagon's dying down, which makes me sad because I'm not liking a Thad or jmj wagon right now, especially with smarg pushing the Thad wagon.

Weird vibes from 498.

smarg's 507 really rubs me the wrong way - she's pushing the Amrun wagon while staying on ThAd, another high BW. Don't know HOW LynchMe is getting goodposting from that. Maybe I'm just tunneling though.

One player on a wagon affects your read of the wagonee?

[InflatablePie]

In short, yes, you are tunneling. And for all that you're so convinced I'm scum that you won't vote anyone that I am EVEN THOUGH YOU FIND THEM SCUMMY TOO, you're not voting me. Why not?

I'll say it again (this is the third or fourth time):

I'd rather my vote go somewhere useful.

Your wagon will not build - I actually think I'm the only person here that finds you scummy (unless I missed someone saying such).

One player on a wagon affects your read of the wagonee?

When I'm almost certain that player is scum, yes.


While bvoigt makes an okay case on Amrun, I can also see where Am's reasoning is coming from. Her posts read as calm and collected while under pressure, kind of similar to her predecessor. She's reading as town to me.

Yet at the same time, I'm getting odd vibes. But, they're not odd enough for a vote and my gut outweighs the vibes anyways.

Unvote

for now. Sometime tomorrow, in-between sessions of WoW, I'm going to try and do a more thorough reread - I honestly haven't been giving this game 100% effort and I feel bad for not giving things my all. Too sleepy to do it at this time, though. Gimme 24 hours, max.

[ThAdmiral]

@ amrum: you said you were suspicious of me because of my reactions to pressure. Can you elaborate on this?
You also said my flip could give some scum leads. Can you also elaborate on this?

[Scott Brosius]

In short, yes, you are tunneling. And for all that you're so convinced I'm scum that you won't vote anyone that I am EVEN THOUGH YOU FIND THEM SCUMMY TOO, you're not voting me. Why not?

I'll say it again (this is the third or fourth time):

I'd rather my vote go somewhere useful.

Your wagon will not build - I actually think I'm the only person here that finds you scummy (unless I missed someone saying such).

Smarg is pinging my scumdar, just with careful style of posting. More of a gut read than anything thus far. I like this post though, we need wagons or else we are not going to get anywhere today.

[Nachomamma8]

(unless I missed someone saying such).

smarg is scum again. I can smell it.

Thanks for the shoutout, Pie.

[EGL]

Why is ThAd still alive?

[ThAdmiral]

What are you gonna do about it other than whine?

[Furcolow]

Hey, Furcolow... Remember these?

You know, instead of voting me, you guys could ask me things

I am here, ready to answer any question.
I don't see how I am dodging anything important.
If you feel smargaret is important, I guess we aren't on the same page, as I don't cater to scum.

When you were being wagoned, you wanted to be asked questions. However, when questions were asked, you kept dodging them and often called whoever questioned you scum, like smargaret in that above quote.

I was going to have to use the "you're just mad because I beat you as scum, so you are improperly riding my ass and viewing me in a different light than you were going to be" defense. Thanks for the defense, I don't even feel a need to post a detailed defense now.

Considering I'm in multiple games, and really split up my time terribly, having just read a Feysal-wall that wasn't meant to break the game but was really derived from a policy-lynch is completely different than I have seen out of him as town. I feel like it was scummy and ill-motivated. What do you think, bvoigt?

So, instead of the excuse you used to get out of answering smargaret, you're trying to use another.

And

you claim to suspect me in response. Exactly like I said in my case you've been doing.

Don't think I would not notice your use of rhetoric to try and discredit my case, by calling it "improperly riding your ass" and "derived from a policy-lynch". Your play in this game has been intensely scummy, and having seen your scum play, I strongly believe this is it. Your attempt to wriggle out of answering for your play is both pathetic and obvious.

Your accusation that I would be scum for not devoting my time and energy into breaking the game is ridiculous. I tried that in Mafia Holographica, but that was a heavily themed game with special mechanics that could be gamed. This game is much closer to normal mafia games, and trying to break this setup would be a colossal waste of time. Here I will hunt scum, and you are, by a wide margin, the scummiest person in the entire game.

Questions:

1. What caused the flip-flop in your attitude toward claiming? You started by vaguely role fishing, then spoke against claiming, then suggested claiming yourself.
2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.
3. Why do you believe smargaret is scum?
4. Why did you not give reasons for suspecting ThAdmiral, jmj3000 and gonnano when you voted them? Did you think it was reasonable to vote jmj3000 for not delivering, only two hours after his promise of content?
5. Why did you want DavidParker lynched? Why did you lie about saying that all game? If you wanted him lynched, why did you not vote him? How could you want him lynched when, according to your own words, you did not have a read on him?

I have no idea why other players have allowed you to get away with your play this long. I won't let the matter rest. I require answers, and I require them today. I won't be satisfied with you stalling for time, waiting for night so you can consult with fellow scum.

You said you were ready to answer any questions. I'm asking questions now, and I want your answers.

He could have just pointed out that scum did have daytalk, so it seems that he actually didn't know they had daytalk for 24 hours. I know you mentioned that Magna and HackerHuck faked something similar in a previous game, but MOI and HH are both experienced, outstanding players... I really don't see Furc gambitting like that.

I'm not really sold by this. What MoI and HH did was not much of a gambit, they just claimed not to know scum had daytalk. All Furcolow would have to do here is claim ignorance, and truth be told, Furcolow being ignorant would be completely natural. Even he would've understood that claiming knowledge that the scum had no daytalk would've looked bad in his position.

My suspicions and vote will stay. I still want to hear answers from Furcolow.

First off, thanks for the ad hominem. Still resentful that I bested you as scum? I thought so.
Anyways, on to your puny case. Smargaret is scum, if someone who is town wants to ask me questions (like I believe you are), I will answer them. I made the rest of my post, just to come back to this one. I knew this would take the most time, and I wanted to answer fully and not strawman.

The reason there is a difference between you and smargaret in terms of me responding is because I wasn't really sure about your slot. I am still not really sure about your alignment. The size of your posting screams town, but the wrathful-vengefulness of wanting to lynch someone for a prior finished game just doesn't suit you, Feysal.

If you really, really believe that I'm scum trying to twist your words into something they're not, and out-rhetoric you linguistically or through my superior dialect, I guess you're not familiar with my scum play as much as you believe you are. That is the only explanation I can find other than you pursuing something you needed to do a game ago... not in this one.

1)I am for nameclaiming, not countryclaiming. If we are going to claim, I want it to be fully. I do not like lukewarmth.
It is not a flip-flop to me, regardless of how others see this.
2) I did not feel I was lying about my meta. I guess YOU know MY meta more than ME? Is that what you're implying? Because I'm not buying it. In fact, I'm not buying

anything

you're selling. Your questions feel weighted, forced, and a day late and a dollar short.
3) I have explained that it is just a suspicion. Why do you care? NachoMamma/ScottBrosius/myself/I'm sure other people are just gut-style suspicious of her. I don't feel like she is adequately scumhunting, and I feel she is fishing for good easy bandwagons and is trying to drive a mislynch by stroking the fire. Her comments scream caps lawkz, and her tone is faked and doesn't feel town to me. I don't know how else to explain it. I'll admit it is weak, and it might just be personal bias.
4) I did provide reasoning for voting gonnano, even if I voted him RVS style at one point. You must not have really read my iso or my posts in context. I unvoted ThAdmiral, and have even been defending him since that point. His response to my pressure-vote was adequate in proving to me he is likely town - he doesn't post like that when I've seen him as scum. I am very familiar with his play. My vote on jmj is because he is actively lurking and promising when he isn't delivering. I'm more than willing to replace my vote on him on d2, or even to tack it on to him if the Amrun wagon dies out... he could easily be scum with all the excuses he has been dishing out.
5) Just because I vote someone, or say I want them lynched, doesn't mean that is even the case. Hence why I've said my admiral vote was a "pressure-vote", my davidparker FoSs were more pressure-FoSs, when I really had a null read on him. I have no idea as to his alignment. Since then, I've been leaning town, but I'm not really positive. He could easily be scum having fooled me.

lowell is effectively trying to quell the momentum of myself voting someone who is probably being replaced as scum because they didn't fit their town meta as scum. It's tough to fake it.

I am viewing Lowell, then, as being Amrum's partner-in-crime, trying to wagon jmj a town-VI.

Town-VI??? That's a huge misrep. Nothing has indicated towards jmj being a VI yet.

I guess I'm confusing him with someone else. Reading him in iso, he is a lot more inactive and intelligent than I remember.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm pretty sure GhostWriter is scum. More sure than almost anyone.

reasoning?
why does this appear like you are defending jmj in your last two posts?
I would be pretty happy lynching him to check yours and GW's alignments based upon who was pushing him and who was defending him. It would probably be worthless, but it's something to think about as a town.

@ smargret: I'm on my phone so it's hard for me to quote but I am responding to your post about me a page or so back.

Of all the posts by people voting me for their reasons this makes the most sense.
All I can say is that I'm not trying to excuse myself before the fact for lynching a townie. First off all I genuinely believe gw is scum, second of all if you check my meta you can confirm that I generally don't scumhunt. While there are times I do, for example I always like to make a case on someone if I replace in to a game, I am far more likely to jump on an existing case.
Furthermore it is untrue to suggest because of this that my belief in these cases are any less, or that I would be less culpable if it was indeed on a townie. I choose cases I believe in and expect to be held fully accountable for my choices.

This doesn't feel like TheAdmiral as scum to me. When he is scum he typically lurks by for the win, and is generally uncooperative. This reads as cooperative, even if it doesn't explain much. He is just like that. I don't see him as scum, and I haven't all game. Things might change, but I doubt it. My reads seem to have been a little off lately, though, so we'll see.

@Furc: While I don't agree with his case on you, Feysal seems sincere, and probably town.

The gonnano wagon doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Now that my top suspect has an active replacement, maybe we can get enough support to get her lynched. So far, Amrun's play looks just as bad as PI's.

tl;dr:

Amrun is fencesitting, voting a lurker, inconsistent, and scum.

UNVOTE: gonnano
VOTE: Amrun

I agree that Feysal could be town, and his effort surely shows that, but I am not familiar enough with his scum play for myself to bring him out of the lack of a read category. I have a couple town reads, and am suspicious of a few players (amrun (moreso due to PI and conflicting FoSs), smargaret somewhat, and possibly lowell(maybe just due to playstyle)). I am pretty confident that you are bandwagonning here for the sake of bandwagonning, though,

bvoigt. What is your response to that accusation?

Bvoigt: I don't like to form too solid opinions when I replace into a game. I don't experience the posts organically so I feel like my perspective is skewed by everyone else's suspicions. I try to come up with some new arguments, but I think it's better to do so as things unfold around me.

In general, though, I do not tunnel and my town reads are rare. Everyone is scummy until proven innocent, to me, and I keep an open mind about things.

So for the moment, I AM on the fence about several people. I am more certain about others, which I said first. Anyone 100% on their reads of EVERYONE or majority is either delusional or scum.

As for Fuzzman, he is scummy-looking to me but a read based on one post is hardly trustworthy, not to mention a lynch is unlikely at this point.

Amrun, you say everyone is scummy to you until proven innocent, but then you later say you are "sitting on the fence" on people?

Considering that is the reason Bvoigt was voting you, why do you feel confirming his suspicions, while in direct contradiction to something you posted herein, is a good defense?

Let me help you out - it isn't.
I'm happy with my vote.

In short, yes, you are tunneling. And for all that you're so convinced I'm scum that you won't vote anyone that I am EVEN THOUGH YOU FIND THEM SCUMMY TOO, you're not voting me. Why not?

I'll say it again (this is the third or fourth time):

I'd rather my vote go somewhere useful.

Your wagon will not build - I actually think I'm the only person here that finds you scummy (unless I missed someone saying such).

Smarg is pinging my scumdar, just with careful style of posting. More of a gut read than anything thus far. I like this post though, we need wagons or else we are not going to get anywhere today.

I completely agree with this, and you can see if you iso me I've been suspicious of her.
It is more gut for me as well, hence why my agreement is complete.
/hate to be agreeing with scott brosius!

[ThAdmiral]

Also, you seem to have inside alignment information and a lot of your reads on people change suddenly and for no apparent reason - you spend one whole post early in the game agreeing with me and saying I make good points, yet the next post in your iso has you getting scum tingles from me. You do the same thing to Furc - he's obvtown and then in the next post in your iso, he's clearly scum. That looks like you're feeling out where people are willing to wagon.

I forgot to respond to this bit before.

I don't get what you mean by "inside alignment information". Can you give examples of where I have indicated this?

And as far as changing my reads - well, yeah. It's day one, there's a lot of new information and posts coming in and my reads are going to change. I don't see how that is a scumtell.

Anyway, you have a point in that a ThAd flip would most likely yield nice results both from his flip itself as well as from analysis. And my Jmj vote doesn't do much if Jmj isn't really here. Other than that, the case against ThAd is a good one, and his defense wasn't such as to deter me enough from his wagon. My hesitation to get on it was his (to me, it seemed) tunneling of me. It tends to be a townie move when someone tunnels. Also, inb4 someone screams OMGUS.

Unvote

VOTE: ThAd

This reads as overly cautious, as though you are tip-toeing around.
If you are suspicious of me just vote me, don't say it is because it "would most likely yield nice results", and things like "inb4 someone screams OMGUS".

[ThAdmiral]

Edit
@ gw: it seems like you are more worried about what people will think about your vote on me, than you do about being sure that you are voting scum.

[Sotty7]

Day I, Vote Count XII

Amrun - 5 -

XScorpion, Beasts of the Sea, RedCoyote, Furcolow, bvoigt

bvoigt - 1 -

Stephoscope

ThAdmiral - 6 -

Nachomamma8, EGL, LynchMePls, LlamaFluff, smargaret, GhostWriter

GhostWriter - 1 -

ThAdmiral

Lowell - 1 -

gonnano

jmj3000 - 4 -

DavidParker, Scott Brosius, Lowell, Artem

Furcolow - 1 -

Feysal

Fuzzyman - 1 -

Amrun

Not Voting - 4 -

jmj3000, Fuzzyman, Sathoris, InflatablePie

With twenty-four of you alive thirteen votes will lynch. The day will end on Sunday February 20th at 9am GMT.

Sathoris, Fuzzyman and Beasts of the Sea have been prodded.

[Sathoris]

I'm sorry for the inactivity. I've been feeling sick the last week or so and spend 3 days resting in bed. Will read up on what I missed when I can.

[LimMePls]

smarg's 507 really rubs me the wrong way - she's pushing the Amrun wagon while staying on ThAd, another high BW. Don't know HOW LynchMe is getting goodposting from that. Maybe I'm just tunneling though.

Because smarg's 507 is absolutely correct?

[Amrun]

@ThAd: your reactions: they've been scattered and inconsistent, some very flippant and uncooperative. More than that, though, I'd like to see you flip because I think analyzing who was pushing/defending you and how will be fruitful.

@Furc: you completely misunderstood my post. I did not contradict myself at all. I tend not to get many town reads in general. Instead of everyone starting in my mind as town, they start as scum. Some people have earned a lot of townpoints, but some have earned only a little bit.

If I was on the fence about everybody in the game, your attacks would make sense, but I'm not and they don't.

[Feysal]

First off, thanks for the ad hominem. Still resentful that I bested you as scum? I thought so.

What ad hominem?

Also, I count in your post three references to Mafia Holographica, and you are clearly trying to give the idea that I would only suspect you out of resentment from that game. This is untrue. I have mentioned in my case several things you have done and said in this game, explained why I find them scummy, and that is why I believe you are scum and want your death. I did bring up Mafia Holographica at the start of my case as a warning not to overlook scummy behavior from village idiots. I've seen some other players say they were keeping an eye on you, or that they were waiting to judge you on your future actions. That is a slippery slope I don't want to get on, having just seen how people irrationally kept believing you were town until the moment you killed them.

Anyways, on to your puny case. Smargaret is scum, if someone who is town wants to ask me questions (like I believe you are), I will answer them. I made the rest of my post, just to come back to this one. I knew this would take the most time, and I wanted to answer fully and not strawman.

The reason there is a difference between you and smargaret in terms of me responding is because I wasn't really sure about your slot. I am still not really sure about your alignment. The size of your posting screams town, but the wrathful-vengefulness of wanting to lynch someone for a prior finished game just doesn't suit you, Feysal.

Refusing to answer questions based on who is asking them is never wise. For one thing, you might be wrong with your suspicions, and not answering questions is simply anti-town. And by the way, I find it odd how your read of me has changed. Only yesterday you found me scummy, and tried to get support from bvoigt. In this post, you've said you believe I am town, and that you're still not really sure.

If you really, really believe that I'm scum trying to twist your words into something they're not, and out-rhetoric you linguistically or through my superior dialect, I guess you're not familiar with my scum play as much as you believe you are. That is the only explanation I can find other than you pursuing something you needed to do a game ago... not in this one.

You really don't think you've been acting scummy in this game, despite much of the town voting you for it?

1. What caused the flip-flop in your attitude toward claiming? You started by vaguely role fishing, then spoke against claiming, then suggested claiming yourself.

1)I am for nameclaiming, not countryclaiming. If we are going to claim, I want it to be fully. I do not like lukewarmth.
It is not a flip-flop to me, regardless of how others see this.

I can say that I'm positive that claiming either our names or nationalities this early would be a bad idea. Also, this really was not the impression I got when you spoke against claiming. You said you did not believe we should say where we are from, not like you wanted us to go further and claim our names too.

2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.

2) I did not feel I was lying about my meta. I guess YOU know MY meta more than ME? Is that what you're implying? Because I'm not buying it. In fact, I'm not buying

anything

you're selling. Your questions feel weighted, forced, and a day late and a dollar short.

First off, using self-meta is never a good idea. It is worthless at best, and scummy at worst. And apparently I do know your meta better than you do, since I could link to two of your recent posts where you, as scum, either acted exactly the same as you claimed to act as town, or acted the way you claimed you would not act as scum. You were at the very least misleading in your use of self-meta, if not outright lying.

3. Why do you believe smargaret is scum?

3) I have explained that it is just a suspicion. Why do you care? NachoMamma/ScottBrosius/myself/I'm sure other people are just gut-style suspicious of her. I don't feel like she is adequately scumhunting, and I feel she is fishing for good easy bandwagons and is trying to drive a mislynch by stroking the fire. Her comments scream caps lawkz, and her tone is faked and doesn't feel town to me. I don't know how else to explain it. I'll admit it is weak, and it might just be personal bias.

It was your timing. The first time you called smargaret scum was when you refused to answer her. You had answered her questions before, and you had said nothing about suspecting her. That made it look like a horrible excuse to avoid answering.

Time to look at the timeline. The last time you mentioned smargaret before calling her scum was in #130, and I can see no trace of suspicion there. Then you called her scum in #222. There were only three posts by smargaret between those two posts, and I see nothing in them that would justify your flip on her.

Your reasons for suspecting smargaret just scream misrep. How can you say she is not adequately scumhunting, when you have voted

all

the people she has, and usually after her? How is she fishing for easy bandwagons, when she was never on the PoisonIvy wagon, which you tried to push with such desperation? Do you see a single instance of CAPS LOCK in her ISO? I don't agree with you at all.

4. Why did you not give reasons for suspecting ThAdmiral, jmj3000 and gonnano when you voted them? Did you think it was reasonable to vote jmj3000 for not delivering, only two hours after his promise of content?

4) I did provide reasoning for voting gonnano, even if I voted him RVS style at one point. You must not have really read my ISO or my posts in context. I unvoted ThAdmiral, and have even been defending him since that point. His response to my pressure-vote was adequate in proving to me he is likely town - he doesn't post like that when I've seen him as scum. I am very familiar with his play. My vote on jmj is because he is actively lurking and promising when he isn't delivering. I'm more than willing to replace my vote on him on D2, or even to tack it on to him if the Amrun wagon dies out... he could easily be scum with all the excuses he has been dishing out.

I like to hear reasons for votes when they are made, not after the fact. That said, I should have a closer look at all three of them before commenting any more.

5. Why did you want DavidParker lynched? Why did you lie about saying that all game? If you wanted him lynched, why did you not vote him? How could you want him lynched when, according to your own words, you did not have a read on him?

5) Just because I vote someone, or say I want them lynched, doesn't mean that is even the case. Hence why I've said my admiral vote was a "pressure-vote", my DavidParker FoSs were more pressure-FoSs, when I really had a null read on him. I have no idea as to his alignment. Since then, I've been leaning town, but I'm not really positive. He could easily be scum having fooled me.

Saying you want someone lynched out of the blue really is not an effective way of pressuring them. You just made yourself look like a fool, and when you said you had no read on him you made yourself look scummy. There are right ways and wrong ways of getting reads, and this way was definitely wrong.

Well, I got some answers. I can't say I'm satisfied with them, and I continue to consider you scummy. However, I recognize the town is unwilling to lynch you yet, and so I'll look elsewhere.

[LimMePls]

Everyone is scummy until proven innocent, to me, and I keep an open mind about things.

This is scum thinking.

[LimMePls]

Edit
@ gw: it seems like you are more worried about what people will think about your vote on me, than you do about being sure that you are voting scum.

I have to agree with this assessment of GW's vote.

[RedCoyote]

Hypothetical Scenario: LynchMePls, Amrun, and ThAdmiral are the last three alive on D6. Amrun is voting ThAdmiral, and ThAdmiral is voting him back. With everything that you've gathered up until this point, what's your move, LMP?

[Amrun]

Everyone is scummy until proven innocent, to me, and I keep an open mind about things.

This is scum thinking.

What? No, it's not. Please explain to me how that even REMOTELY makes sense.


Scum already know who the scum are and who is town. Why would everyone be scum to them...? What...?

[smargaret]

It's called keeping your options open, Amrun.

[Amrun]

I do keep my options open. That was the whole point of the post in question... Wow. What is going on?

I do have a fever, so perhaps I'm speaking gibberish atm, but it seems to me that everyone is failing reading comprehension right now.

[DavidParker]

@Furc: I'm DEFENDING JMJ??? ARE YOU FOR REAL??? He is the optimal lynch for today in my eyes (at this point at least). I'm not defending him in any way. I just said I had a very strong scum-read on Ghostwriter following a few posts of his. It's not something I plan on making a case regarding yet, nor do I plan on voting him at this point in day 1, because he's not the lynch for today, but I felt it good to be known I find him HELLA SCUMMY.

[LimMePls]

Hypothetical Scenario: LynchMePls, Amrun, and ThAdmiral are the last three alive on D6. Amrun is voting ThAdmiral, and ThAdmiral is voting him back. With everything that you've gathered up until this point, what's your move, LMP?

I'm not sure this situation is actually very relevant to the discussion at hand. For one, I've heard it said that in 3 way lylo when you have the deciding vote, you should hammer the player who looks more TOWN. (See Return to Liten in my wiki for this working to a town win). I think this thinking comes from the idea that scum would have elminated the towniest player the night before, in an attempt to be left the most town looking player.

So if you are trying to, in a roundabout way, ask me which of those two I'd rather lynch right now, it's ThAd. Answering the question as presented, I'd probably vote Amrun, but I wouldn't be happy about it either way.

[LimMePls]

Everyone is scummy until proven innocent, to me, and I keep an open mind about things.

This is scum thinking.

What? No, it's not. Please explain to me how that even REMOTELY makes sense.


Scum already know who the scum are and who is town. Why would everyone be scum to them...? What...?

Everyone is scum until proven innocent is scum thinking because it means you are not interested in who is town, you are only interested in identifying someone who is perceived as most scum by the rest of the game. In other words, the thinking you posted is geared towards finding the easiest mislynch.

[LimMePls]

I do keep my options open. That was the whole point of the post in question... Wow. What is going on?

I do have a fever, so perhaps I'm speaking gibberish atm, but it seems to me that everyone is failing reading comprehension right now.

Playing from a mindset of "Everyone is scummy until they've proved to the rest of the game they are town" is ABSOLUTELY scummy. It's scum minded because it a) promotes opportunistic wagonning of the most convenient mislynch and b) seeks to identify obv-town players for NK elimination.

The AtE/distancing-from-your-own-post-via-zOMG-I'm-SICK is ALSO scummy.

I'm starting to come around full circle on Amrun.