Mafia 1114: Jim's Mafia - Game OVER!!!!

[RobCapone]

Mass claim is a scum move anyway

odds are javert and prox are last scum, you don't mass claim with 9 alive and town has the edge

mass claim if ever used is more in Mylo or lylo which we are in neither of those right now

[Javert]

6. If you flip town, I'd be fucking amazed but sure I'll play your game, if you flip town

and I don't get a guilty tonight

, feel free to lynch me but tonight I'll be sure to investigate prox to confirm without a doubt if he is scum or not

The underlined section is not a part of our bargain. If I'm lynched, then you get lynched. Period. You do not get to talk your way out of it.

Not surprised that you are suddenly offering to investigate the "obvious" scum, though.

And furthermore, at this stage of the game, there is no point in leaving alive claimed power roles we think are scum over Townies. Power roles are generally left alive

early

in games so that their claims can be judged after several days. Here, you have

had

your several days worth of "results," and yet you have not given us an ounce of information, nor has your play matched up with how a Cop should play.

Now

we get to judge you.

Fact is, I think one N2 kill was probably stopped by magnus_orion's protection of Oso. And I think the other missing kill can be explained either by (i) a scum group no-killing; or (ii) a scum group trying to kill a member of the other scum group and failing because of some sort of unnightkillability. There might even be some third explanation; but we won't know until we finish the mass-claim.

~

And just so it is clear: I do not think there is really a need for voting right now.

Pre-Post Edit: Mass-claim is not a "scum move"; it's a logical move that Towns make once the game has reached a point where either (i) the Town is in LyLo and so there is no harm in mass-claiming and potentially a boon, or (ii) the Town is in such a good position that the Town is better off coordinating to quickly root out the final scum instead of destroying ourselves with our ignorance. We are currently in the second situation.

[Mute]

Hey guys.

Unvote

I've just quickly glanced over the few posts that popped up overnight, got some stuff to do, all I saw was stuff about a mass-claim and rob and his claim for cop.
Last post I read was here. Will do a better reading once I'm not being dragged into a fight between my mother and the landlord.

[RobCapone]

Well as the cop I'm never going to agree to be lynched outright

you are making far to many assumptions IMO

The simplest answer is usually the best

You were blocked, no gun or knife kill
I got guilty on edge, you were reluctant to vote him
last night you were not blocked and we have a gun kill

if town decides to lynch me tomorrow, that's on them but TODAY

you or prox have to be lynched.

Side note with a little wifom thrown in

if I was scum fake claiming cop I would not say I got innocent on the 2 dead people, I would claim inno on people still alive to get them on my side, it's something I learned from epic mafia.

But if you want to lynch me today go right ahead but if you actually think it through javert or prox makes the most sense because they both were blocked and there was a lack of a kill

[RobCapone]

And the only game I played where there was a mass claim suggested, it was suggested by scum

[Javert]

Hi. In case you haven't noticed, I'm not voting for you yet. As to your other statements:

1.)

I was "reluctant" to vote Edgerobin for two reasons, both of which I have already explained. First, I was debating if it was strategically sound to leave Edgerobin alive so that Oso could role-block him the following night. And second, seeing as I was planning to poke at Mute and ConSpiracy, I would have preferred a longer Day yesterday. Trying to suggest I was "reluctant" to vote a player

who everybody pretty much agreed was scum

because I am his

partner

, then, does not make sense.

2.)

The simplest answer when you have a Cop who (i) claims to have investigated the

only two players who are nightkilled on the nights they died

, and then (ii) claims a guilty result unnecessarily on a player who was already going to get lynched is that the claimed Cop is

scum

. The lack of nightkills, on the other hand, is

not

"simple."

Pre-Post Edit: If you have only been in

one

game with a mass-claim, then you should defer to actual experience. The three most experienced players in the game -- myself, Oso, and magnus_orion -- have already agreed to a mass-claim. Take our word for it, then, when we say a mass-claim is not "scummy."

~

Mute, given the fact that you

unvoted

me, I rather suspect you have actually done some reading. Please claim in your next post.

[RobCapone]

There was no gurantee edge was going to be lynched , you voted conspiracy

if I had not claimed and I pushed a lynch on edge and you pushed a lynch on conspiracy who would town listen to?

You who got knife mafia or me who got a VT

I claimed cause I wanted to ensure we lynched confirmed scum

your reasons for not voting him could be lies, who knows

I do know that on a night that 2 deaths failed, 1 was a doc save by the doc admitting it
and the other has to be oso's block or a NK

if it was a NK it could be mafia trying to setup somebody but that just doesn't make sense from a mafia standpoint but can easily be proved with your lynch

you will flip scum or VT and with town ahead your lynch makes 100 times more sense than lynching the cop who has already produced a guilty result.

[Javert]

*yawn*

[RobCapone]

Yeah yawn at the person who makes more sense than you do

[ConSpiracy]

...
what javert said.
also, Conspiracy, why me?

Because I had either you or Rob as ICE´s partner. Rob wouldn´t be roleblocked, because of him being cop.
You being blocked + no knife night-kill = you scum

For the record, I think Mute and ConSpiracy are the most likely candidates for Edgerobin's partner.

I now get how annoying this is... I bet Mute screamed with anger when I continued nagging about him being scum. Anyways, my Mute suspicions have dropped a bit, since he is just acting weird all the time, he comes across as a VI.

Mass-claim

It was the worst thing to happen... We had a special roleblocker who lived through 2 nights without being night-killed. This means scum had something that stopped them from killing, apart from the roleblocker: a doc (which I said earlier) Let's out that doc
We lose Oso because of this mass-claim, thanx Javertscum...

Rob's fakeclaim case

The first thing I wanted to ask yesterday was why he chose Humble. That had been the worst cop result ever and gave me really bad vibes. When he said he investigated Amrun, I was shocked. I think every body exept Oso would be better to investigate.
However, Javert is certainly as scummy as Rob is and a cop is better than a VT. We might get something useful out of this guy if we lynch him tomorrow and lynch Javert today.

I also completely forgot both Prox and Jerbs.

@mod, this setup is completely legal according to the rules right?
@mod, can you please prod prox and Jerbs regardless of their past activity? Jerbs for instance has been replaced in another game.

[Oso]

..
1. Humble was stabbed and Amrun was shot so clearly I could not be part of Both mafia groups if that is what oso is trying to imply
..

Uh, wut??

If I did not make myself clear here:

..
N1 with only a single kill and my ability to block shared group powers, along with the individual targeted, pretty much guaranteed that Edger was swinging closer to the beginning of the game than the end of it.

Rob fake claimed cop to get some humongous town cred by bussing Edger

and added validity by claiming HumblePoirot as his Night 1 investigation. I bought it. Humble is a good player to confirm as town or scum early in the game if you can so his(Rob's) choice of Humble didn't register as even slightly off.
..

I'll clarify. You are who I think is the remaining member of the

GUN MAFIA

, Edgerobin's partner. The key word there is

"bussing"

.

As to the people who have said things against the mass-claim, I absolutely don't agree.

Mass-claim is like an individual claim. It gets done when either it is forced (MyLo,LyLo) or when it can do the most good for town. We are, at least in my opinion, at the second option. Three nights, 2 Townie kills. By my count that is 4 short of what it should have been. 1 of the 4 short is accounted for by my block of Edger. 1 of the 4 short is likely because of Magnus. That leaves 2 unexplained.

We need to know, today in my opinion, if there are any other town roles that could possibly explain either of those two deaths. Lynching my block targets is all well and good but I think of at least two situations (based on what we know right now) that could point fingers at two players (Javert, Prox) based on my results alone but depending on what actually happened those nights, conclusions based on my results alone may not be as accurate as I (or anyone else) would want them to be.

[Javert]

ConSpiracy posting without claiming: +1 scum point.

[RobCapone]

As cop, which I beleive is a first for me on MS
I typically go after the people I feel are blending in or are trying to seem too town

n1 - I wasn't investigating Javert cause he just caught scum, not wasting an investigation on DP cause I don't investigate people I'm convinced are scum cause I can make a case on him also if I pushed hard for his lynch and he flipped town than I felt good that mafia wouldn't NK me

n2 - had to determine if Oso's block was legit

n3 - I felt it was stupid to investigate javert because him being blocked was confirmation that he was scum so I had to go after someone else. As I pointed out, amrun's post seemed like he wanted in on the wagon early

When there is a no kill from both groups and we now know there is a doc, why was the 2nd kill unsuccessful?

Mafia NK or mafia blocked

If you are mafia you are stupid to NK with that many townies alive, mafia should almost never NK early in a game anyway, but that is a theory discussion for afterwards

javert is today's lynch IMO


P. Edit - using that same theory javert could have bussed ice day 1 for town cred

fake claiming cop with a guilty is basically suicide for mafia and would be incredibly stupid day 3 withso many townies alive but I see where you could get that.

You blocking Javert is damning for him too

lynch him, if he flips town RB me and lynch me tomorrow

[magnus_orion]

how about this:
Scum attempt to kill oso n2 -> I protect oso -> My protections don't work anymore -> I couldn't have protected rob last night -> Oso's block worked last night -> Prox is scum.
We lynch prox, and then block rob.
When there is no kill we lynch rob and win the game.

Since I've claimed, this logic is valid, and unless additional information leading to contradictions or issues with this comes up, which would be through a mass claim, then I suggest this to be the most obvious course of action.

Rob is making no sense.

magnus, just because Javert seems "pro-town" doesn't make him clear, especially with 2 mafia groups. I can point to a game where chesskid had the biggest pro-town vibe in the game and he was scum and single handily won the game because nobody thought he was scum AND that game was also a 2 mafia group game. Javert was blocked and both groups kills failed

Yeah both kills failed the night after I doc-protected an extremely powerful claimed pro-town role that would heavily be in scum's best interest to eliminate, rather than, say, ignore.
Hmm... I wonder why they failed.
The fact that you're pushing this so hard is not only suspicious, but also confusing.

n2 - had to determine if Oso's block was legit

Why didn't you investigate Oso?

@conspiracy:

Because I had either you or Rob as ICE´s partner. Rob wouldn´t be roleblocked, because of him being cop.
You being blocked + no knife night-kill = you scum

Okay.
But I wasn't blocked. And Prox was.
So then... Does that mean
Prox being blocked + no knife night-kill = prox scum?
Cause I think it does.

[magnus_orion]

double post.
I re-read my role pm to clarify 1 thing, and noticed something else, so I have 2 clarifications to make
1. The protection stops working the night after a successful protection, so presumably I can block all kills during 1 night
2. I may be able to successfully protect tonight if I was successful night 2, I had assumed I can never protect successfully again, but upon re-reading I noticed that its possible to interpret my role pm as only preventing me from protecting only one night after I successfully make a protection.

[RobCapone]

I make plenty of sense actually

I didn't investigate oso cause I felt we would learn more from an edge investigation instead of an oso investigation

but assume I investigated oso and later role claimed people would ask me why I investigated oso and not edge

either way somebody is going to play that game

[Mute]

~

Mute, given the fact that you

unvoted

me, I rather suspect you have actually done some reading. Please claim in your next post.

Personally, I see no reason against a mass-claim. I'm a vanilla townie.

@Rob: If those are you're reasons for investigating those people, I'm not buying them. That or you're new to being a cop. You should've investigated Javert to be sure he wasn't bussing N1. Could've just investigated Oso N2 to verify if he was telling the truth. N3 could've targeted someone other than Amrun as I saw nothing overtly deserving of scum in their posts.

@CS: eh, call me this game's VI if you must.

[magnus_orion]

@rob: No. You investigate oso, because Oso could still be lying and/or bussing.

You're not making any sense because I haven't seen a sensible case why Javert is likely scum. You are just claiming that Javert HAD to be blocked for the kills to fail. But that's clearly not true. So why is Javert scum?


(Checked again, wording is such that I make the player live if they would have died, so yeah, I can block all kills if they target the same person, definitely.)

[ConSpiracy]

ConSpiracy posting without claiming: +1 scum point.

Javert using something as a scum point when it isn't: +1 scum point.
Oh, wait! Mute also posted without claiming but didn't get a scum point: Javert is plain OMGUSing.

Mass-claim is like an individual claim. It gets done when either it is forced (MyLo,LyLo) or when it can do the most good for town. We are, at least in my opinion, at the second option. Three nights, 2 Townie kills. By my count that is 4 short of what it should have been. 1 of the 4 short is accounted for by my block of Edger. 1 of the 4 short is likely because of Magnus. That leaves 2 unexplained.

We need to know, today in my opinion, if there are any other town roles that could possibly explain either of those two deaths. Lynching my block targets is all well and good but I think of at least two situations (based on what we know right now) that could point fingers at two players (Javert, Prox) based on my results alone but depending on what actually happened those nights, conclusions based on my results alone may not be as accurate as I (or anyone else) would want them to be.

As I said earlier, there should have been something to stop scum night killing you and stopping night kills at all, i.e. a doc role (I doubt an other role). So there is a doc we know that the night kills can be stopped using either that or your roleblock. We know we can't account your roleblocks as cop-outs, but there is certainly a possibility of them being right.
On top of that, the possibility of more than 2 Power roles was already very rare, since your PR is insanely good. We shouldn't be thinking of other pr's stopping night kills.
We risk our main source of information for extra information... Not the best move to be made.

BTW, I fully agree we shouldn't be lynching people only using your information. Javert only has other scummy things as well. I will make a case this weekend if I have the time for it.

Okay.
But I wasn't blocked. And Prox was.
So then... Does that mean
Prox being blocked + no knife night-kill = prox scum?
Cause I think it does.

Nope. I haven't seen a prox-ICE connection. I actually haven't seen anthing from prox.

[RobCapone]

This is my first game as a pro-town cop

I didn't investigate Javert cause I honestly didn't think he was scum at the end of the day

I said I felt investigating edge would give us more info than oso, oso claimed with no pressure, that is extremely rare as scum so o beleived he was town

Just cause you thought amrun was town doesn't mean I thought he was town, as pointed out his comment struck me as odd and I chose to investigate him.

[RobCapone]

@rob: No. You investigate oso, because Oso could still be lying and/or bussing.

You're not making any sense because I haven't seen a sensible case why Javert is likely scum. You are just claiming that Javert HAD to be blocked for the kills to fail. But that's clearly not true. So why is Javert scum?


(Checked again, wording is such that I make the player live if they would have died, so yeah, I can block all kills if they target the same person, definitely.)

But I felt his claim was beleivable
I felt edge's reaction to oso's claimed to be blocked as more evidence edge could be scum
Javert was blocked and 0 kills happened (on phone so going off memory) so that means doc saved and scum blocked. There is nothing that shows why 2 kills failed

@CS - go back and read prox's posts he was the one who claimed ice was l-1 way early, that struck me as odd so could be a connection between them

[magnus_orion]

how about both scum targetted the insane power role, and both were blocked by my protect?
There, I explained how two kills failed.

[RobCapone]

Possible I guess but javert could have actually been blocked and again his resistance to vote edge only makes him look worse

other things that make him look bad

trying to direct oso's block by telling him to block mute
the day he was blocked he comes out guns blazing voting and FOSing people
his little comment about being afraid he was going to be lynched as town seems awfully fake too

his play is very suspicious to me

if he is just a VT we aren't losing anything

you lynch me you lose the cop ( I know I can't make people beleive me but it's the truth)

if oso feels he hasto block me tonight , so be it but Javert's actions this game make no sense at all

[Javert]

ConSpiracy posting a second time without claiming: +2 scum points.

[Oso]

[Pre-Edit: I noticed that Magnus is clarifying his role a bit but I spent so much time and skull sweat on this, I'ma post it anyway]

This is going to probably be a wall folks but I'ma try to my put current thoughts out on what I think happened the first 3 nights and how my blocks and Magnus' actions (and even some unknowns) might have affected them (for the record, I believe Magnus' claim at the moment. I had him as probable town in my mind from the end of D1 pretty much based on his playing.)

Night 1

(This is what I am certain happened)

• Knife Mafia
  kills Humble Poirot
  
• I block Edgerobin, preventing
  Gun Mafia's
  NK
  
• Magnus still has an active save.

Night 2

• NO NIGHT KILLS AT ALL
  
  
• Possible explanations
  • Javert blocked, Mafia (second group) kills me, Magnus saves me, save used up.
    Javert=Scum
    
    
  • Javert blocked, I was "double tapped", Magnus saved me, save used up.
    Javert=Town
    
    
  • Javert blocked, 1 Mafia No-Killed, Magnus saved me, save used up.
    Javert=Ambiguous
    
    
  • Javert blocked, 1 Mafia No-Killed, I wasn't the target of the killing group so there was some other mechanic/role at work that prevented the kill. Magnus' save still active.
    Javert=Ambiguous.
    
    
  • Javert blocked, Both Mafia No-Killed, Magnus' save still active.
    Javert=Ambiguous
    
    
  • Javert blocked, Both Mafia's tried to kill, I wasn't the target so there was some other mechanic/role at work that prevented the kills. Magnus' save still active.
    Javert=Town
    
    
  • I was blocked. So Javert wasn't. Even if Javert was scum and blocked me, we would have cancelled each other out and I would have never had a chance to block the group Night Kill.
    Javert=Ambiguous
    (but leaning strong town. If I was blocked (even by Javert himself) there should have been at least one kill that night unless Javert was Mafia and he chose to No-Kill)

Night 3

• Amrun killed by
  GUN MAFIA
  
  
• No
  KNIFE MAFIA
  kill
  
• Possible explanations
  • I blocked Prox, Knife Mafia No-Killed.
    Prox=Ambiguous
    (I am not even seriously considering this, it is just included for completeness sake)
    
  • I blocked Knife Mafia:Prox.
    Prox=Scum
    (a good possibilty)
    
  • I blocked Prox, Magnus still has an active save, Magnus saves Rob.
    Prox=Town
    (I think this just as likely as me blocking (scum)Prox.)

To tie this all together into what I think happened:

@Magnus, I really don't think you saved me N2. We won't be sure until after the game is over but with the early indications of the thread's willingness to lynch Edger based on my block alone, I think it highly likely that both scum groups left me alone Night 2 hoping that 1)Gun Mafia: Lending weight to Edger's defense by No-Killing so as to make it look as if there is another role out there preventing kills, in addition to making ICENinja's rant look like he was just adding confusion and the possibility of framing block target when Edger flipped scum. 2)Knife Mafia: Down to one member, No-Killed to frame my target.

That is why I was (still am to certain degree) against pre-announcing my block targets. Unless it is bulletproofed, it's too easy to get a townie lynched. But seeing as how it's getting on into the game, most of my objections to announcing block targets are pretty much gone at the moment.

So, if I'm right and you didn't save me Night 2, you had an active save going into Night 3. Knife Mafia had to kill last night. A Claimed buffed-up RB and Claimed Cop with the only safe bet they can make is that both are true claiming and try and kill one of them. Rob is the most dangerous to either Mafia if true-claimed so he would most likely draw kills and by that thinking Doc protection, so I would be the target. I'm still alive so that points strongly to the fact I may have saved myself last night by blocking Prox or that Knife Mafia WIFOMed itself into targeting Rob and you prevented their kill.

Rob

IS

Gun Mafia. The only reason I'm not dead by a bullet is because Gun Mafia went Doc hunting last night instead of taking a chance I'd draw Doc protection and having a failed kill. Rob knows he's mafia so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to convince himself that I was the more "obvTown" of the two claimed roles and more likely to draw protection than his role.

So, Rob is scum. Neither Javert or Prox look good but depending on what has actually happened, neither is obvScum based on my blocks alone.

It all depends on how you folks think the two scum groups acted N2. My personal opinion agrees a bit with what Rob said (I think it was Rob) that No-Killing early in the game is bad, we have Edger's flip and ICENinja's flip to reinforce that both groups were thinking that on N1. My claim changed that though, now No-Killing N2 looks attractive despite the fact is runs counter to generally "good" scum play.

If we are not going to lynch Rob today, my vote would be Prox (yes, I'm buying into the hype on this role a bit) as I think it more likely I blocked a kill N3 than on N2 but with an even chance (based on how I think things have worked so far in the game) that Prox is gonna flip town.

Rob is my choice for today with Prox as a distant second and Javert as

VERY

distant third. As a matter of fact, I can't really see any way Javert would get my vote today.