Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Nexus]

Votecount the Seventh:

_over9000 (4): mb53, ICEninja, neko2086, KingTwelveSixteen
WeaponsofMassConstruction (3): silavor, _over9000, mongoose
implosion (2): Darth Yoshi, nameless
Silavor (1): q21
ICEninja (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
nameless (1): Zdenek
mongoose (1): implosion

Not Voting: Noone.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 22nd February at 12pm GMT.

As ever, if there are any problems, post in thread or PM me.

Nobody is in need of prodding.

[silavor]

Nexus-
You only have q21 down as voting for me, but then say there are two votes on me.

-So I did. Fixed.

[Nameless]

Sorry, the point about my early posts just being 'I agree' posts was false and I didn't see a reason to respond to that point

Awesome. So can I get a free ticket to ignore any accusations against me, since I know they're false too?

As to the 'attacking the question' argument, I've already admitted that my choice of quote culling (hence the [...]) was crappy - but if you read the full paragraph I was responding to, it's pretty obvious which parts I was attacking. I'll provide them in bold below.

Nameless--what exactly is bothering you about Ninja's posts (I presume you're talking about the ones directed at WoMC and Neko)? Reading them,

I'm at least seeing scumhunting happening...anal-rententive and/or obsessive-compulsive scumhunting

, maybe a little (WARNING FOR THE SUPER SERIOUS POLICE: THAT WAS HUMOR, OMGBBQLOLZ).

But when you don't have a lot to go on in just page 2, sometimes you have to zero in on the little things

--I don't see anything wrong with that per se.

Now then, back to implosion. My last post wasn't intended as a full case against him; I only responded to his last two posts and didn't make much effort to draw the points together. I don't feel I misrepresented him, however. Implosion

did

push _over9000 for specific reasons, and

has

backed off now that the bandwagon is rolling. This was even pointed out before me, I just presented the examples to make it clearer. His assuredness that scum are on the wagon (of THREE, I might emphasise, with over twice that to lynch) of a player he considers scummy

is

stretching.

And to state the obvious here: if town-implosion considered _over9000 scummy and the bandwagon justified (which, #164, he claims to), there'd be no reason for him to object to lynching _over9000 anyway. Unless he planned on letting scum get away because they bussed each other? I don't think so.

Implosion's mind-reading of the scum and entire justification for this is WIFOM aka circular reasoning. The easiest way to demonstrate is to pick an example and make the counter-arguments.

Implosion's argument (if _over9000 is town)

: Mafia will wagon, because they can get away with the mislynch.

Counter-argument

: But the town knows that and would be watching for the Mafia to go for easy targets, so the Mafia would target someone else.

Counter-counter-argument

: Ah ha! The Mafia can use this assumption in their defence and target the easy mislynch anyway!

Counter-counter-counter-argument

: Except wait, the town know that Mafia will be considering their reaction, so the Mafia would still have to target someone subtle.

Counter-counter-counter-counter-argument

: Which is exactly what the Mafia want the town to be overthinking while they go for the easy target.

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-argument

: And this why the town cannot target the lynch in front of them!
Etc.

[ICEninja]

I feel like implosion is quickly becoming the scummiest player right now. However, if he has a very specific mindset (that I won't state right now), then I feel like his defense is adequate. My position on him and whether or not I will be voting him depends largely on how he answers this question:

If you believe that there is scum on over9000's wagon regardless of his alignment, why do you believe the situation is more likely to be he is town with scum on his wagon than scum with scum on his wagon?

I also do not like King's vote and quick unvote at all.

[mb53]

-snip-

Hey, 2-for-one deal! I got the entire scumteam- oh, wait, but then how is ICE scum, as well?

Obviously

we have three scum in this game! Or, more likely, we have a bunch of townies nitpicking each other's comments to bits because we're only part way through page 2, and the game's been going for less than 24 hours at this point.

-snip-

This same argument can just as easily be made towards Nameless, since he also managed to get someone to hop on my wagon, Zdenek. The point is, though, unless we have three scum in the game and they would all out themselves so easily, how can we take the case against one of them as "obvscum trying to create a false case", while dropping the others as just being "town pointing out an anomaly"?

-snip-

Scumslip time. Three scum would be the norm for this game. The fact that you suggest, twice in one post no less, that it is more likely that there are only 2 suggests that you know something more than the average townie should.

Unvote, Vote Nameless

Everyone vote Nameless.

Doubt it. Can't just think that he does know the "norm"?

I think mongoose is scummy for prolonging RVS with his random vote on q21, while he had stated that he found WOMC scummy

I just don't see how him re-doing a random vote would be beneficial to scum. Null tell I say.

I do not believe that "being difficult" is a scum tell, and even refusing to explain yourself isn't one.

Well, I do.

More likely scum candidates would seem to be Implosion (see: #94, #113) and mb53; the later makes a lot of posts with little content,

1.

often requires prompting to explain anything,

2.

changes his first vote very quickly,

3

exaggerates 1/10th of D1 as "all game"

4

and dittos a scumlist without prompting only to allegedly forget why two real days later.

1. More of play style than scummy-ness. I hate when people take something that can be answered in one line and make a whole gigantic deal out of it. Whats the point of that? I don't get why everyone feels the need to over explain and exaggerate something unless it is absolutely necessary, such as when prompted to like I have had to. Anyone who makes paragraphs for no reason makes me feel like they are trying to post content that isn't needed. But I have grown to learn that that is just some peoples play style, and is the opposite of mine. They end up sounding like they are rambling and have no idea what they are talking about. One liners are nice, simple, and clean. They get the point across without everyone needing to read big paragraphs of pointless crap.

Really does no one else see a problem with that? I could have responded with "I hate when people take something that can be answered in one line and make a whole gigantic deal out of it". Instead I wanted to give an example. Play style.

2. I don't get why people try to pass things that happen in RVS as actual scum tells. And I already explained my vote switch to implosion.

3. Come on, you know what I meant. "All you have done this game (AKA ALL GAME SO FAR) is not post content."

4. Like I said, I'm sure I just thought it was a convenient way to get who I thought was scum across.

+ Town points for nameless for nice scum hunting in that post

He's a

really

easy target,

Soo... You suggest that we attack the people that

aren't

scummy?

87% of stats are entirely made up.

[offtopic]I say this all the time but most of my friends are too stupid to get it =P[/offtopic]

Really not buying mb's "I forgot it was scummy" excuse.

I was thinking of going to find where I learned it was scummy, but I figured it wouldn't be worth it since it would take hours to find (since I'm not even sure if I was in the game, or just reading a different game). But really, if I was scum, wouldn't I say something like "Oh yeah, my bad I had no idea it was scummy" rather than tell the truth (WIFOM)?

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

Meta based reads revolving around players replacing out are never legitimate.

This. Null tell from niel replacing.

This, andthis Good scum hunting, good defense. (Also, when people say "post ###" Could you link to them like I did, instead of making me scroll up to them? Much appreciated.

Or rather, I feel like if I were scum, I would push very hard on him because he appears unlikely to defend himself well. For the same reason, if I were scum and _over9000 is scum, I'd make sure to be on his wagon in case it goes through so that it becomes a bus.

WIFOM.

So, regarding implosion. I have just always have had a gut town feel on him. And I think he defense was decent. As I learned from a different game that I just finished, I shouldn't trust my gut (I had gut town reads on the 2 scum that were there >_>). So I won't try to stop the lynch or anything, but I doubt I'm going to be attacking him.

More posting Mongoose/9000/WoMC (although WoMC did come in to say that he will post soon (like I did)) please (oh wait, looking back mongoose said he was sick).

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I also do not like King's vote and quick unvote at all.

I changed my votes like that because it looked like nameless had a pretty good case on implosion being scum, but then implosion gave a pretty good defense post and I

realised that the only scum motivation I could think of for implosion's posts would be if _over9000 was scum.

Also, I'm not gonna stay on implosion, who is actually defending himself, when _over9000 still apparently requires more pressure to do so. (Hintedy hint hint, Mr. over.)

(Also also, I'm pretty sure that what I did was called vote-hopping, not un-voting.)

[q21]

King was sheeping what appeared to be a good case without checking if it was in fact a good case. I sheep sometimes, but never without checking the facts and I read anyone who blindly sheeps as scummy. Possibly sheeping a case by your buddy Nameless?

Sorry, the point about my early posts just being 'I agree' posts was false and I didn't see a reason to respond to that point

Awesome. So can I get a free ticket to ignore any accusations against me, since I know they're false too?

If they are factually inaccurate rather than just interpretively inaccurate, go ahead.

As to the 'attacking the question' argument, I've already admitted that my choice of quote culling (hence the [...]) was crappy - but if you read the full paragraph I was responding to, it's pretty obvious which parts I was attacking. I'll provide them in bold below.

I know what you've admitted to, I referenced it earlier along with the fact that there was a whole back and forth before you made that admission which makes it seems rather less sincere.

Also rather dislike the wifom sloshing around at the end of this post. On the whole implosion comes out of you and his little back and forth looking much better than Nameless.

[neko2086]

I realised that the only scum motivation I could think of for implosion's posts would be if _over9000 was scum.

How so? He's going to defend himself regardless of whether he's town or scum. Or what posts are you referring to?

[implosion]

And to state the obvious here: if town-implosion considered _over9000 scummy and the bandwagon justified (which, #164, he claims to), there'd be no reason for him to object to lynching _over9000 anyway. Unless he planned on letting scum get away because they bussed each other? I don't think so.

As you continue to completely misrep me, major

FoS

. My vote stays on mongoose, though. I never once objected to lynching _over9000. I said that there was probably mafia on the wagon.

Implosion's mind-reading of the scum and entire justification for this is WIFOM aka circular reasoning. The easiest way to demonstrate is to pick an example and make the counter-arguments.

[wifom example goes here]

Two responses. First of all, if we take any of the even-numbered lines in your example, they don't make sense because an easy target is by definition someone town that townies will consider scummy. Second of all, WIFOM is something that should be ignored in favor of Occam's razor, which would lead to the simplest explanation that there is probably scum on the 9000 wagon.

I feel like implosion is quickly becoming the scummiest player right now. However, if he has a very specific mindset (that I won't state right now), then I feel like his defense is adequate. My position on him and whether or not I will be voting him depends largely on how he answers this question:

If you believe that there is scum on over9000's wagon regardless of his alignment, why do you believe the situation is more likely to be he is town with scum on his wagon than scum with scum on his wagon?

Where did I say that I thought it was more likely town with scum on the wagon? IIRC, the only statement I've made about 9000's alignment is that he does appear scummy.

He's a

really easy

target,

Soo... You suggest that we attack the people that aren't scummy?

No. In fact, I agree that he is scummy, and I'm sure that there is town on his wagon (theoretically it could be all scum, but doubtful). I just think that given the situation, context, and what _over9000 has said so far, that his wagon is likely to contain scum.

WIFOM.

Occam's razor.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I realised that the only scum motivation I could think of for implosion's posts would be if _over9000 was scum.

How so? He's going to defend himself regardless of whether he's town or scum. Or what posts are you referring to?

I meant the original posts that started the argument.

[Nameless]

Sorry, the point about my early posts just being 'I agree' posts was false and I didn't see a reason to respond to that point

Awesome. So can I get a free ticket to ignore any accusations against me, since I know they're false too?

If they are factually inaccurate rather than just interpretively inaccurate, go ahead.

This is probably going off on a tangent, but that sounds incredibly counter-intuitive. If an accusation is based on a subjective interpretation, there isn't much you can do to defend against it other than more clearly state what you meant and hope the other players believe you. But if an accusation is based on an objective fact, it should be trivial to unarguably disprove that by displaying the evidence - and not doing so would make you look more guilty than not bothering to argue an interpretation.

Here are some hard-boiled FACTS for you:
- Your first post was RQS / RVS.
- Your second post voting WoMC for not buying his trap, and found my reaction to DarthYoshi defensive and scummy. Both these points were already made by neko2086 (#47) and DarthYoshi (#53).
- Your third post stated you disliked mongoose voting someone other than his suspect. This point was already made by Zdenek (#65).
- Your fourth post accused neil of asking for a free ride and being afraid of appearing to be posting because his name was mentioned, FoSed implosion and mb53 for posting scumlists, and called me out for answering a question. The exact points against neil were new, although over half a dozen similar points were already made between neko (#88) and I (#95). The point against implosion / mb53 was already made between neko (#85) and neil (#86). And the point against myself was already made by mb53 (#83).
- For the remaining 2 days and 21 hours between your fourth post and my accusation, all you posted was silavor's slip and the correction to your vote

Some of his early points are just 'I agree' and the entirety of his last few days scumhunting amounts to jumping up and yelling 'AH HA!' at a careless mistake ... while simultaneously making a careless mistake himself. (Yes I know they're not the same, but it still kind of weakens your argument.)

It's not exactly a fatal accusation, but I dare you to bold which part of it was false.

I never once objected to lynching _over9000.

Alright, I'll give you that. But since you didn't directly agree with it either, but were suddenly kicking up a lot of fuss and throwing suspicion onto the wagon, it WAS a fair assumption.

Second of all, WIFOM is something that should be ignored in favor of Occam's razor

In the context of Mafia I really,

really

disagree with this, but I'm going to let somebody else write that essay.

[mb53]

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

I just don't see how him re-doing a random vote would be beneficial to scum.

[DarthYoshi]

Some responses from Mb53's defense concern me--

But really, if I was scum, wouldn't I say something like "Oh yeah, my bad I had no idea it was scummy" rather than tell the truth (WIFOM)?

Isn’t this more or less what you have been saying?

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

Because you didn’t acknowledge its scumminess until pressed. Presumably, if you weren’t pressed, other players may have felt free to post theirs’ as well. Granted, you were called out on it pretty quick, but still.

So I won't try to stop the lynch or anything, but I doubt I'm going to be attacking him.

Read: I am hedging my bets so that I won’t attract any untoward attention if I turn out to be wrong.

Other thoughts—

Implosion’s defense has slightly mitigated my apprehensions about him, but for the moment, my vote remains where it is—partly still because of the pattern of behavior I cited earlier, but also because in a re-read, I was wondering about this from Implosion’s #68:

Second of all, then why not just vote WoMC? He's only at L-3 right now by my calculation.

I believe _over9000 was at L-4 (and he has since garnered two more votes) when Implosion made the fuss about that bandwagon. WoMC was a vote higher, and Implosion at that point was encouraging a different bandwagon that was earlier in the day, when we had less to go on. So, my question is—given that scum are likely to hop onto a (or any) bandwagon of an ‘easy target,’ why were you casting suspicion on one bandwagon when you explicitly encouraged the other?

Finally, the game feels like it has slowed down—do we have players in need of prods? I feel like we were promised content from WoMC as well as _over9000, neither have delivered. I know Mongoose is sick, but AFAIK, neither of these players have offered reasons for being absent.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Have been particularly swamped, but will make up for it with a wall tomorrow.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
Finally, the game feels like it has slowed down—do we have players in need of prods? I feel like we were promised content from WoMC as well as _over9000, neither have delivered. I know Mongoose is sick, but AFAIK, neither of these players have offered reasons for being absent.

Over hasn't posted squat since four days ago, so yes, we do have at least one player in need of prodding.

[Nexus]

mongoose and _over9000 have been prodded.

[Zdenek]

I changed my votes like that because it looked like nameless had a pretty good case on implosion being scum, but then implosion gave a pretty good defense post and I realised that the only scum motivation I could think of for implosion's posts would be if _over9000 was scum. Also, I'm not gonna stay on implosion, who is actually defending himself, when _over9000 still apparently requires more pressure to do so. (Hintedy hint hint, Mr. over.)

First you say that the case looked good, which implies that you read it and understood it, so you think Implosion is scum. Then you move your vote because he defends himself, and because Implosion is only scum if 9000 is scum. This seems to me like a bad excuse to move your vote and like lining up lynches. Also, when you say that for Implosion to be scummy 9000 must be scum, are you just referring to the fact that Implosion on longer wants to push the 9000 wagon?

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

I'm not all that concerned with the fact that you posted a list, it the order of the names on it that bothers me.

I just don't see how him re-doing a random vote would be beneficial to scum.

It indicates that he doesn't feel the urgency to scum hunt, and would rather goof off than make a serious argument. Maybe not beneficial to scum, but indicative of mindset that's not geared towards helping town.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I changed my votes like that because it looked like nameless had a pretty good case on implosion being scum, but then implosion gave a pretty good defense post and I realised that the only scum motivation I could think of for implosion's posts would be if _over9000 was scum. Also, I'm not gonna stay on implosion, who is actually defending himself, when _over9000 still apparently requires more pressure to do so. (Hintedy hint hint, Mr. over.)

First you say that the case looked good, which implies that you read it and understood it, so you think Implosion is scum. Then you move your vote because he defends himself, and because Implosion is only scum if 9000 is scum. This seems to me like a bad excuse to move your vote and like lining up lynches. Also, when you say that for Implosion to be scummy 9000 must be scum, are you just referring to the fact that Implosion on longer wants to push the 9000 wagon?
...

1. I did in fact read the case, yes. The specific defense that implosion gave I believe was, "Your quotes are out of context. Also, misrep." At the time of me voting I had not, in fact, looked back at where the quotes were. (actually I still havn't, I should go do that soon.)
2. "and like lining up lynches"? What?
3. I mean what I said, the only scum motivation (other than pretty bad play) that I can think of for him saying what he has about the people voting for _over9000 would be if over is also scum. If over was town he could have just waited till tommorow to say stuff about people on his wagon being scum and not risked himself at all.
4. What scum reasoning

would

implosion have for doing what he has did if over is town? 'Cause I can't think of any.

[Nameless]

The specific defense that implosion gave I believe was, "Your quotes are out of context. Also, misrep." At the time of me voting I had not, in fact, looked back at where the quotes were. (actually I still havn't, I should go do that soon.)

So let me get this straight: You'll vote for a player without bothering to check the accusations against them are real, and you'll believe a player's defence without bothering to check their arguments are real. BTW in post #60, q21 set your house on fire.

4. What scum reasoning

would

implosion have for doing what he has did if over is town? 'Cause I can't think of any.

You're not thinking very hard. Implosion could pretty obviously be setting up the town's next (mis)lynch as somebody early onto _over9000's wagon,

regardless

of _over9000's alignment.

[neko2086]

the only scum motivation (other than pretty bad play) that I can think of for him saying what he has about the people voting for _over9000 would be if over is also scum. If over was town he could have just waited till tommorow to say stuff about people on his wagon being scum and not risked himself at all.

This is what I was getting after. So you're saying it would only be beneficial for scum to attack a popular town-wagon

after

the fact? I really don't see why, if implosion is scum and over is town, he would need to wait until tomorrow to attack the wagon if it were the prevailing one. Scum could just as easily attack a popular wagon to make themselves look like they're thinking outside the box and to paint the others as opportunistic.

I just think it's strange that implosion is so focused on the over wagon and not the WMC wagon. It sounds as though, from his perspective, that the over wagon is scummy because over himself is an easy target. Here's what he says about the WMC wagon:

I don't really like this wagon either. He isn't as much of an easy target, but he is to an extent. And since he provided a game in which he sort of set a trap (assuming that he had a different name on a different forum) I'm inclined to not find the "trap" scummy

So, implosion finds WMC to be less scummy and therefore less of an easy target. So that makes his wagon less scummy? There is a major disconnect in logic here it seems. Implosion, can you clarify how WMC's wagon isn't just as suspect if not more so than over's?

[ICEninja]

Where did I say that I thought it was more likely town with scum on the wagon? IIRC, the only statement I've made about 9000's alignment is that he does appear scummy.

I'd say your current vote indicates that you believe over9000 is more likely town than scum. Why do you believe this? If I am wrong, please explicitly state how you feel. As I said, how you answer this is critical to where my vote goes. I will explain my reasoning and thought process after you respond.

No. In fact, I agree that he is scummy, and I'm sure that there is town on his wagon (theoretically it could be all scum, but doubtful). I just think that given the situation, context, and what _over9000 has said so far, that his wagon is likely to contain scum.

Once again, here you state that you find him scummy, but insist that there

must

(in this post you say "is likely" to) be scum on his wagon and vote for them.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

From #81, thoughts in real time.

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

I've been so excited the past few days, I wouldn't be surprised if my leaping for joy has caused some kind of meteorological disturbance. And thank you, I gave the interview of a lifetime to get it.

Alright, I wasn't feeling too harshly about Mongoose simply based on 64, but after he got a lot of people suspecting him, he then goes and takes his vote off Q21 without comment, save that he had no reason to be voting him at all, and then put his vote on Weapons right after, as an "oops I forgot". That clearly states to me that his main purpose of posting was to unvote, and that voting was a secondary purpose. Having voting as a secondary purpose reads to me as doing so for appearance purposes and not because of genuine suspicion.

This is compounded by how he had literally

nothing

to add to the case against Weapons. This is really bad.

But you don't seem to think putting mongoose and me on the same scum team logistically makes sense, do you?

I simply don't know what toungue-in-cheek means =P

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tongue+in+cheek

WMC, yes I did repeat myself somewhat, but it's because nobody seems to have picked up on what I said the first time. It's important because what people are perceiving as uberscummy on your part seems to me to be possibly just a poorly conceived idea, which is not necessarily scummy. So yes, I am on the fence about you. I'm sorry I don't have black and white reads on page 4.

Now, what exactly in my post is fluff, and what is stating the obvious? Are you happy with 9000's vote, for instance? I mean, you just quote my entire post and then make broad generalizations about it with no examples, then say you could jump on a wagon of me.

WMC, yes I did repeat myself somewhat, but it's because nobody seems to have picked up on what I said the first time. It's important because what people are perceiving as uberscummy on your part seems to me to be possibly just a poorly conceived idea, which is not necessarily scummy. So yes, I am on the fence about you. I'm sorry I don't have black and white reads on page 4.

Now, what exactly in my post is fluff, and what is stating the obvious? Are you happy with 9000's vote, for instance? I mean, you just quote my entire post and then make broad generalizations about it with no examples, then say you could jump on a wagon of me.

1.

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

2.

Seriously now, WMC is gathering quite a few votes rather quickly. I don't like this last post by over9000 so much. I mean, I know the ideas behind a WMC wagon have already been beaten to death, but I just generally dislike a ditto vote that contributes nothing. There's no question to WMC, and there's no attempt to explore any other avenues. WMC is certainly not the only potential scum suspect right now, and there's plenty of daylight left, so this just looks like coasting.

On the topic, I really do think, as bizarre as it is, that WMC was trying to lay some sort of trap. What else could his "you missed the point" post mean? (not a rhetorical question--this is really bothering me). I can't tell whether this is a scummy move or a poorly conceived, town-motivated one. I'm just as interested as Implosion to see an instance of this being at all effective.

Mongoose's 64 is rather terrible, and I agree with Implosion's assessment. What is really interesting about Mongoose's post is that he was rattled enough by this distancing accusation that he bothered to make a second joke vote to rectify the situation (which really shouldn't be perceived as a "situation" in the first place). Nervous scum?

1. Fluff
2. Stating the obvious

I could go on if you'd like. Your wishy-washyness stems not from staying neutral, but for stretching posting for both sides when you could just say you're neutral.

over9000's vote was what other people said it was. Why exactly is the trap a bad idea from a scumhunting perspective?

neil's first post back leans scum reaction, but not too much considering my current suspicions. neil's second post is about the same. #93 neil's third is better, though I feel biased.

Nameless reads town. Also feeling implosion town, though less so if mongoose/mb53 flip town.

WeaponsofMassConstruction - There is far, far too much noise over a stupid opening trap. I'm inclined to think he's town, but the significance is being exaggerated either way. If his wagon goes any further without better justification I'll be calling scum shenanigans and anaylysing further.

How would you respond to the logic for ICE as scum off this trap?

#96 tentatively putting q21 down as town.

^ there was need to claim yet, it really didn't help anything. I dont like Neil's posting since its pretty much saying "don't mind me I'll show up later on with something useful". unfortunately, q21 summed up what i thought perfectly so no real content here.

@ice: unvoting was the main purpose of the post. We are out of RVS so there was no point in keeping the vote. I the changed it to the person who I felt was scummiest. I don't see how voting being an afterthought is scummy. Also, as for content, I would like to point out there is limited amounts of posts right now, so finding things that people haven't said is rather difficult.

I dont like how neil likes how many people jumped on him though, however it sounds like something I would say so I will let it be.

Some obvious posting/restating/justifying nontent. +more scum points.

#99, wall by silavor

So you decide to equate your post with mine and decide to ignore:
-context difference
-tone difference
-that immediate given reaction should tell you something
-the logic behind hoppers being scum (also though I haven't posted it yet, I did not base my read solely on the fact that ICE decided to cast suspicion on it but also

how

he went about it; it's like how bandwagoning itself on town player X does not make one scum, but the way they do it)
Yeah, no, +scum points.

DarthYoshi looks town at the moment. Also do not get what is so bad about posting a top to bottom scum list.

Pfft, I read through the whole thing without looking at the last page and my biggest suspect was Neil

Thats just kinda lame.

Not feeling that town would say this.

That was me not reading the thread correctly. Whoops.
...

How exactly did you misread the thread to come up with that?

Skimmed over that post.

KTS targeting over9000 earns him town points.

Zdenek looks fairly town.

By #110, implosion is doing some of the same stuff mongoose was, and is in turn targeting neil, so now I have 3 people I currently suspect who are not compatible. Moving on...

Liking mb53 better in #112, less for the content, more for the sharper tone.

#114 reminds me why I liked implosion in the first place, mongoose getting the very specific type of vote wrong.

over9000 interactions with ICE and KTS are +town, though my reads are bound to switch.

-snip-

Hey, 2-for-one deal! I got the entire scumteam- oh, wait, but then how is ICE scum, as well?

Obviously

we have three scum in this game! Or, more likely, we have a bunch of townies nitpicking each other's comments to bits because we're only part way through page 2, and the game's been going for less than 24 hours at this point.

-snip-

This same argument can just as easily be made towards Nameless, since he also managed to get someone to hop on my wagon, Zdenek. The point is, though, unless we have three scum in the game and they would all out themselves so easily, how can we take the case against one of them as "obvscum trying to create a false case", while dropping the others as just being "town pointing out an anomaly"?

-snip-

Scumslip time. Three scum would be the norm for this game. The fact that you suggest, twice in one post no less, that it is more likely that there are only 2 suggests that you know something more than the average townie should.

Unvote, Vote Nameless

Everyone vote Nameless.

Very true and feel dumb for missing this. silavor moves up to near the top of the scumlist, and if this slip holds, we may be dealing with 8 vs 2 vs 2, which makes more sense with my other reads.

I still believe that people are letting WoMC's "trap" off too easily, and all things considered I'm going to leave my vote where it is.

Reasons, etc

#132, KTS is tunneling.

Nameless and DarthYoshi are still looking town.

Alright it is the weekend and I'm going to bring back the contribution.

Firstly, here is the newbie game that neil was scum in.
Newbie 1036
He lurked a lot and was "busy" all the time. He was finally hammered after repeatedly not contributing to the game, and we landed a lurker scum. While he never replaced out, I'm seeing a lot of similarity in his play this game before replacing. I'll judge King by his own contribution, but he's going to be starting from a negative position because of this.

I think out of all the players we have right now, Zdenek is the lurkiest. He drops in every now and then, but doesn't seem to have any strong opinions. His current vote is very outdated and very weak, really, and I haven't seen him give any further reason to be voting Silavor or anyone else right now. Zdenek, who do you find scummy and why?

I don't like, at all, that neil claimed. He wasn't under any pressure to do so, and it seemed to be a bit panicked. If he doesn't like playing a VT, then he probably shouldn't be playing this game because that is the role you're going to get 2/3s of the games you play.

I was under the assumption there was two because I'm used to games with two scum in them, but I can see how having 13 players could warrant there being three scum. It's not a scumslip, just a sign of being inexperienced, and an oversight for not paying attention to how many players there were.

Have you ever played in a mini here before, or is your only mafiascum experience with newbie games?

In my experience, setting yourself up to jump on a wagon for a reason that hasn't occurred yet = scum.

I'll agree with this. While I don't feel like Yoshi is being unreasonable, scum Yoshi could really be giving himself options at this point.

The fact is that this is pretty much all I have to add, though I'm sure that won't be enough for some people.

This is terrible. This right here screams to me "I know I'm scummy but don't vote for me anyway".

Neither Mongoose nor Weapons have done much to dissuade my suspicion of them.

This post reads less as trying to find scum and more as trying to make people look scummy. Also, the last line is inconsistent with previous non-statements/shifting of focus.

Can accept KTS's explanation for neil, but not writing it off completely.

Agree with implosion's #152, moving down in scumminess.

Reads are matching up decently with q21's #154. I'm currently looking at silavor/ICE/mongoose/mb53. Again in #156

Okay #158 is actually legitimate.

q21, my meta demonstration (not on replacing out but on being disinterested in a game and using RL excuses) are more conclusive, but still on the null side of making him scummy. We definitely don't really have much against neil, but should his replacement do anything scummy, he will have done so from a bad position already. That is my view on things.

Zdenek, so you really think silavor's first vote was that scummy? I see your logic there, and sure it is a point, but it just seems so small to me. I'm much more interested in silavor supposedly knowing how many scum are in this game. HOWEVER, I believe it

only

weighs anything if we have a double scum team game going on, and he therefore only has 1 partner. If this is a standard mini, there will be 3 scum, and the point will be absolutely moot. The fact that he's previously only played newbie games (which are semi-open setups with 2 scum every time) I don't really buy being able to lynch silavor based on the information we had. In fact, if there is only 1 scum family, I'm inclined to believe silavor is town because of this. I wouldn't put him as experienced enough to come up with a fake slip indicating that he knows how many scum there are.

Again, if new information leads us to understand that there are 2 scum teams with a pair of scum each, then yes that was a huge scum slip, and I feel like it would be absolutely vote-worthy.

I don't like implosion's views right now at all. He's basically calling people out for voting the scummiest players. What do you want us to do? Pressure players who we don't believe are scummy? Of course I'm going to vote for the "easiest" player to wagon, because it means he's the scummiest. I felt like Weapon's original wagon built in the first couple pages was suspect, considering how many people jumped on that and with so little to add, but I don't see a single vote for over9000 right now that isn't completely justified.

This is

especially

bad, because implosion himself has declared over9000 to be scummy (in his list, over9000 is the very bottom). A scum flip on over9000 is going to really make me look over all these points deeply, because I can easily see scum trying to distance themselves from their partners, calling them scummy, and simultaneously trying to discredit the wagon against scum.

Second paragraph makes sense, though I don't know why silavor did not bring this up first and how ICE is defending silavor while barely defending anyone else, IIRC, and so I like an ICE/silavor team.

Forgot about neko, in retrospect moving to the town side of the spectrum.

#167 (Nameless on implosion with contradictions) I might agree with if it didn't go and mess up my current reads. Some flips will sort incompatibles out, though.

#170 (implosion's defense) and I get reminded of context/points/whatnot. This is +town more than before #167.

My reactions are consistent with KTS's. I can understand where he came from there.

#177 (Nameless's rebuttal) not doing the same for me as #167.

#178

I feel like implosion is quickly becoming the scummiest player right now. However, if he has a very specific mindset (that I won't state right now), then I feel like his defense is adequate. My position on him and whether or not I will be voting him depends largely on how he answers this question:

If you believe that there is scum on over9000's wagon regardless of his alignment, why do you believe the situation is more likely to be he is town with scum on his wagon than scum with scum on his wagon?

I also do not like King's vote and quick unvote at all.

More non-committal clouds of suspicion.

Impressed by mb53 in #179, though I'm low on time here and am skimming.

I skipped to the end here as most of the rest is continued debate over people I'm not finding scummy anymore at first glance and I need to go.

[mb53]

Some responses from Mb53's defense concern me--

But really, if I was scum, wouldn't I say something like "Oh yeah, my bad I had no idea it was scummy" rather than tell the truth (WIFOM)?

Isn’t this more or less what you have been saying?

Also. Why am I scum for posting a list, realize it was scummy, than warning others not to post one? How do I (assuming I'm scum) benefit from that?

Because you didn’t acknowledge its scumminess until pressed. Presumably, if you weren’t pressed, other players may have felt free to post theirs’ as well. Granted, you were called out on it pretty quick, but still.

If pressed=reminded, sure.

By the way, I don't think the trend of posting a comprehensive list of scum and town reads needs to continue. Listing one's top scum suspects should suffice.

Yes, that will be the only list I shall be posting, as it does give scum an idea of who to target/not to target. I don't think it is very harmful 3-4 pages in though, as it is initial thought, and peoples views can change a lot through out the day.

Read: I am hedging my bets so that I won’t attract any untoward attention if I turn out to be wrong.

Whenever I have a gut read on someone, I have trouble finding any evidence against them, and other people's evidence just seems doubtful in my mind. Like I said, my gut reads in the last game I was in was wrong, so I'm not going to try and stop the lynch.

I'm not all that concerned with the fact that you posted a list, it the order of the names on it that bothers me.

Plural? So far you have only commented on Nameless, which I already explained (even if we do disagree with the scum tell I based it off of.) Besides, now I'm thinking he is town, and you are thinking he is scum (heheh funny switch around).

It indicates that he doesn't feel the urgency to scum hunt, and would rather goof off than make a serious argument. Maybe not beneficial to scum, but indicative of mindset that's not geared towards helping town.

Ok, good explanation.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tongue+in+cheek

Rawr, thats my website to shove in people's faces. And I did google before I asked, but I was super tired and wikipedia confused me so I gave up. [/offtopic]

[silavor]

Second paragraph makes sense, though I don't know why silavor did not bring this up first and how ICE is defending silavor while barely defending anyone else, IIRC, and so I like an ICE/silavor team.

What is it that I didn't bring up?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
You're not thinking very hard. Implosion could pretty obviously be setting up the town's next (mis)lynch as somebody early onto _over9000's wagon,

regardless

of _over9000's alignment.

But why would he be doing that

now

if over is town when he could do it tommorow and not call attention to himself?

the only scum motivation (other than pretty bad play) that I can think of for him saying what he has about the people voting for _over9000 would be if over is also scum. If over was town he could have just waited till tommorow to say stuff about people on his wagon being scum and not risked himself at all.

This is what I was getting after. So you're saying it would only be beneficial for scum to attack a popular town-wagon

after

the fact? I really don't see why, if implosion is scum and over is town, he would need to wait until tomorrow to attack the wagon if it were the prevailing one. Scum could just as easily attack a popular wagon to make themselves look like they're thinking outside the box and to paint the others as opportunistic.
...

Ok, now that is a reason. I could see someone doing that as scum.
(This spoiler contains me saying stuff about the wall-o-text, and has been spoilered for bigness.)

Spoiler:

...

1.

I highly suspect ICEninja of causing the storm that has shut everything down. If my power goes out, I'm coming after you. (I shouldn't have to, but I better specify that this is a joke). Congrats on getting a job--that's not easy to do right now.

2.

Seriously now, WMC is gathering quite a few votes rather quickly. I don't like this last post by over9000 so much. I mean, I know the ideas behind a WMC wagon have already been beaten to death, but I just generally dislike a ditto vote that contributes nothing. There's no question to WMC, and there's no attempt to explore any other avenues. WMC is certainly not the only potential scum suspect right now, and there's plenty of daylight left, so this just looks like coasting.

On the topic, I really do think, as bizarre as it is, that WMC was trying to lay some sort of trap. What else could his "you missed the point" post mean? (not a rhetorical question--this is really bothering me). I can't tell whether this is a scummy move or a poorly conceived, town-motivated one. I'm just as interested as Implosion to see an instance of this being at all effective.

Mongoose's 64 is rather terrible, and I agree with Implosion's assessment. What is really interesting about Mongoose's post is that he was rattled enough by this distancing accusation that he bothered to make a second joke vote to rectify the situation (which really shouldn't be perceived as a "situation" in the first place). Nervous scum?

1. Fluff
2. Stating the obvious

I could go on if you'd like. Your wishy-washyness stems not from staying neutral, but for stretching posting for both sides when you could just say you're neutral.
...

Tch, I don't like this. Give more than just a number and "stating the obvious."

...

Pfft, I read through the whole thing without looking at the last page and my biggest suspect was Neil

Thats just kinda lame.

Not feeling that town would say this.
...
KTS targeting over9000 earns him town points.

Eh, hows that work? Those two posts were basically the same post, I just hit the submit button to early.

...
Liking mb53 better in #112, less for the content, more for the sharper tone.
...

Sharp tone earns town points from you?

...
over9000 interactions with ICE and KTS are +town, though my reads are bound to switch.
...

...You mean me and ICE are town, not over, right?
After that you skip a couple of posts with content in them.
Hold on a sec...

(On a general level, not directed at Mb53 in particular) I agree with the amount of pressure being put on _over9000, and will definitely consider joining the wagon if he doesn't come through with his promise to post content soon. In my experience, lurking + promising content without delivering = scum.

Did anything ever come of this? (Spoiler: No, not really.)

...

I still believe that people are letting WoMC's "trap" off too easily, and all things considered I'm going to leave my vote where it is.

Reasons, etc

What reasons, and who should/has give/n them? It is unclear.

#132, KTS is tunneling.

Escuse me? What part of that post is tunneling?

Nameless and DarthYoshi are still looking town.

I feel like it should be noted that DarthYoshi agreed with all of the points I brought up in that post where I "tunneled" _over9000.
You skip a couple posts here...

...
Agree with implosion's #152, moving down in scumminess.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with him saying how you shouldn't be voted for in that post. (this post is also the one that seems to start the stuff that everyone is talking about with implosion right now)
Woahey, you skipped over DarthYoshi directly calling out to you to say some stuff about the "remains of his wagon"

...
#167 (Nameless on implosion with contradictions) I might agree with if it didn't go and mess up my current reads. Some flips will sort incompatibles out, though.

You do realize that you are basically saying that you are ignoring this post until somebody dies and proves you wrong, right? Yeah...

...
My reactions are consistent with KTS's. I can understand where he came from there.

Oh, hey. I just realised that Yoshi only FOSed me, not voted for me. My mistake.

...
#177 (Nameless's rebuttal) not doing the same for me as #167.

Re-reading that part about WIFOM made my brow crinkle. implosion said that scum would attack over regardless of over's alignment but Nameless' rebuttal is a WIFOM about whether or not the mafia would enter into this whole WIFOM thing over attacking easy targets with town not voting for the obvious targets because of that, it just doesn't seem to have anything to do with the actual argument at hand except as this wierd side-thing.

Hm, and thats pretty much the end of it. Good to have you actually in the game WoMC.

Ok, that was a huge post from me. That took awile. I'm gonna go take a shower now.