A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[LimMePls]

Vote: Percy

WAGON-HO!

Raise: LynchMePls

WAGON-HO?

[LimMePls]

This one is because a second Percy vote is scummy, and a second self-raise scummier still.

Neither of these things is true.

[LimMePls]

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

This post strikes me as a bit scummy. Particularly the last sentence.

Unvote
Vote: GreyICE

[LimMePls]

Unvote; Vote: DGB

I'm not seeing the usual aggressive scumhunting/unfounded declarations in the vein of 'x is town and y is scum' that I expect from a pro-town DGB. The LMP vote is weak and hasn't been followed up on, which makes me doubt how scummy DGB found either of the things she based it on.

Seeing as how I directly said both those statements were false and DGB completely ignored it, you are correct here.

[LimMePls]

@Cow's post restriction-
The effort being put into figuring out alternative forms of communication seem pointless. He's been able to communicate so far, and I'm sure he's bright enough to communicate more if he has need.

I agree. In fact, the 'Let me leap forward and immediately start looking like I'm being awesomely pro-town by making a list of actions to communicate' is another instance of Grey trying to hard to appear town.

[LimMePls]

Sorry, why are so many people calling DGB town? Did I miss something? There's a genuine absence of scumhunting intent there.

Not to mention her response to "If LL is scum why are still voting LMP" is hilarious.

[LimMePls]

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

This post strikes me as a bit scummy. Particularly the last sentence.

Unvote
Vote: GreyICE

Explain this a little more :<.

I'm not holding your hand all game. This time I'll indulge you, but you need to learn to think for yourself. Lets deconstruct the two sentences I had a problem with:

I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust.

This is at least the second time that GreyICE has pulled a "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT HOW TOWN AND AWESOME I AM" move. Why does GreyICE need to make this statement at all? Isn't this what all townies are doing?

I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

"Everyone is someone I don't trust" is a scum mindset. Starting with the idea that everyone is scum is a scum mindset because it is optomized to a) find mislynches and b) identify town players for NKs.

[LimMePls]

^^If the picture weren't fail, that might be funny. Guess we'll never know.

[LimMePls]

Or hell, lynch me day 1 if I don't. Give it to me, I'll pardon someone like HasCow or Twilight Sparkle who we're not going to lynch today anyway, and we can get on with our lives.

Why would this be good? Do you think there won't be relational tells to gather from the raising mechanic? I don't see why we should throw it away and "get on with our lives". This event has more town merit than just who ends up with the governor.

On that note:

Unraise
Raise: Magua

[LimMePls]

On that note:

Unraise
Raise: Magua

That's your best town read?

Ya. What's wrong with this?

[LimMePls]

Regardless thats something that could even still be discussed once a Hand was made. Especially if they took a turn for the worse.

In fact, I'd prefer we raised a hand before we discussed this. If we all agreed that the hand was meaningless because we're just gonna force them to burn it, then the raise votes have less meaning.

[LimMePls]

I an get behind a Sparkle-Hand.

Unraise
Raise: Sparkle

[LimMePls]

Re governor: how about raising a sensible vanilla townie read? I'm thinking chess or shadow.
It gives the scum one more PR to deal with.

This is BAD.

Unvote
Vote: Raivann

How did you propose we'd know who was VT? How do you know these two in particular are VT?

[LimMePls]

MOD

If you modded a game, and put in a post restriction role and the person PURPOSELY broke said post restriction. Would you modkill them?

If a PR was in this game and was to be broken the intent behind the post would have to be judged by the moderating team. In the event we felt a player had purposely broken a PR to gain an advantage a modkill would be considered and likely carried out.

Mod

If you passed the sentence, would you swing the sword?

FOS: zoraster

. He's Eddard Stark... useless question is useless.

[LimMePls]

Hascow, you couldn't possibly have missed this:

Nice choice, hascow is probscum. That old role might be the inspiration that gave him the idea that he could get away with a lot of nonsense by faking a post restriction.

I WANT TO SEE

HASCOW

BREAK THE POST RESTRICTION IN HIS NEXT POST.

Break it, break it now. And make it worthwhile.

DGB STFU. If it was true you're asking for a neutral survivor modkill...goddamn.

Who sayz? Mods don't modkill for a post restriction fail.

You know what, trying to outguess the mod's PR penalties while simultaneously making an asinine demand is unacceptable.

vote DrippingGoofBall

I'm led to believe you're not as absolutely insane as this seems, so I hope you smarten up.

Preview Edit:

If a PR was in this game and was to be broken the intent behind the post would have to be judged by the moderating team. In the event we felt a player had purposely broken a PR to gain an advantage a modkill would be considered and likely carried out.

Especially given the mod's input, continuing to demand he break his PR is further demand for suicide which in and of itself is not a town behavior. I stand by my vote.

raise Benmage

For actually being sane enough to realize how silly DGB is being.

Why is it "unacceptable"?

[LimMePls]

LMP needs a sense of humour. >_>

For what exactly?

[LimMePls]

Ok, sorry for the lack of content yesterday, but I was sick PLUS Valentine's day PLUS the pre-release and subsequent midnight release of Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 so yeah...

Do you always apologize for not posting one day? Why? Also, why did you feel the apology needed 3 excuses?

[LimMePls]

Ok, sorry for the lack of content yesterday, but I was sick PLUS Valentine's day PLUS the pre-release and subsequent midnight release of Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 so yeah...

Do you always apologize for not posting one day? Why? Also, why did you feel the apology needed 3 excuses?

Yeah. I'm most active during the weekdays, so if I'm absent during them there's usually a reason, and I like to be courteous and explain it is all *shrug*.

This is so lame. I'm not sure if it's scummy though. The jury is still out.

[LimMePls]

The user named "Song of Ice and Fire" got replaced out of a ASoIaF game. That is not a good sign for that slot.

Exactly. Why would someone named that get replaced? She was obviously stoked for this game, but got caught as scum early.
@LMP- it was from them posting they thought they were scum when they saw their role.
It was not from a green dream that gave me special knowledge.

And how does them thinking they were scum when they saw their role make them vanilla?

[LimMePls]

Why is it "unacceptable"?

We don't know his alignment, and we did not at the time know what penalties might be in effect for breaking a post restriction. If hascow is town, getting modkilled simply because DGB is not acceptable without the full support of the town, which - as far as I can tell - she does not have.

ITT we learn that Mikujin does not understand how DGB operates. He also does not know what "unacceptable" really means.

[LimMePls]

If he "just said its a bad lynch" with no previous statements that validate this viewpoint, then he's just claimed scum. Thus he would need to be posting a favorable/town-like read of the player he governors prior to the actual usage of the governor power. Thus he's been locked into a play he may not have wanted to make. That's Magua's point, and he is right.

Unraise
Raise: Magua

I like Magua-Hand.

[LimMePls]

Raivann

Raivann, upon second inspection is scummy. I feel like he's going for a sort of "hit and run" post style that keeps him under the radar yet active. Without reviewing anything, can you remember anything Raivann has said or what his positions are? No? Me neither, and I just reread his iso. Pretty reluctant to vote

@Zoraster: Upon second inspection? What do you mean by this? Also, did you notice his "we should raise a VT, specifically chess and shadow" or his responses to my questions about it? What do you make of that? Why do you think Raivann thinks those two players are VTs? Even if he thinks they are, how would he "know" they are? How would we collectively give the hand to a VT under his proposed solution? For that matter, why is making sure it goes to a VT even a good idea?

I find Zoraster's "Raivann is scum, but LOOK OVER HERE AT THIS GUY WHO HAS BEEN GETTING MORE SCUM ATTENTION, HE'S GETTING MY VOTE" really scummy. Of course I need to stay away from relational cases D1, we saw how that turned out for me in ACoK.

[LimMePls]

I did ask him. Now I'm asking you. Since you claim to be suspicious of him, but leave out any mention of these things, despite the fact that they are the most egregiously scummy things he's done.

Now that I've held your hand, ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

[LimMePls]

@Feysal: What do you make of Zoraster?

[LimMePls]

OR MAYBE YOUR PLAY HAS BEEN TOTAL AND COMPLETE

SHIT

AND YOUR RECORD OF CATCHING SCUM IS CUTE AND ALL, BUT YOU AIN'T DOING MUCH OF IT HERE.

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AGGRESSIVE PLAY AND SHIT PLAY, AND THIS IS THE LATTER.

I've been in 2 games with GreyICE, and in both he's done this. If he's going to chase away people I like playing with, he's joining the Players to Avoid list.

[LimMePls]

Raivann is being criminally undervoted.

[LimMePls]

The ‘suspicions’ rundown at 520 is pretty but manages to not say very much that hasn’t already been brought up in thread. I do find that addition of Raivann to be interesting. Perhaps a case of FOS Partner (Raivann), Vote Someone else (Locke)?

That is my suspicion. DGB made it sound like she thinks Zoraster-LL team, and Zor was bussing, but that play doesn't make sense to me. Zor-Raivann "FOS Buddy Vote Townie" makes much more sense to me. Hence my probing Zoraster about his Raivann observations. His prickly-ness about it only makes me find this more likely.

[LimMePls]

@DGB: huzzah!

[LimMePls]

@LMP, 587-
How does it not make sense? Zoraster tried to distance on LL while coasting along. I engaged his throwaway comments, he tried to appease me by buddying and bussing LL.

"Doesn't make sense" was an inaccurate statement on my part. "Makes less sense to me than Zor-Raivann" would be more accurate. It is certainly plausible.

[LimMePls]

Cow, if you're a dayvig you should shoot Raivann. Or Zoraster. You'd be a hero. Since you tied a noose though, I'm going to take that to mean you are indicating that those are the lynches you are considering. Is this correct? if so nod your head.

[LimMePls]

I don't understand why he is asking me to explain. My ISO is littered with my explanations on these topics.

[LimMePls]

You want my reads on everyone?

[LimMePls]

OH I KNOW.

He wants us to vote on the vig?

[LimMePls]

I agree with MOI's position on the dayvig.

@Cow: Use your judgment and make the best shot you can. Your choice will say a lot about you (instead of a little about X other players voting would), and since we already get that information from regular voting, it helps all of us get a better read on you to see you choose.

[LimMePls]

BRILLIANT!

[LimMePls]

Townly
GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight
Chesskid
Feysal
Zoraster

Scummy
Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

My guess is there is a stark on these lists, possible one on each.

Unvote
Vote: Zoraster

[LimMePls]

I've read more of the thread and my opinions have changed somewhat.

Why are you calling GreyICE scum? That's part of why I voted Xvart.

Although this bears mentioning as well.

[LimMePls]

Someone who can choose a player and open a QT with that player. This making them "neighbors" (players with a shared QT that don't know each others alignments). Thus "neighborizer".

[LimMePls]

Thought: Would a dayvig action have to be submitted in the thread, like

Dayvig: Xotxm

or could it be accepted via pm?

...Obviously not since it just happened without that.

[LimMePls]

Also, I get the concept of neighbor, but isn't neighbor almost always for the purpose of confirmable town(lannister) purposes? Giving scum(Stark) that ability seems... messed up.

You are confusing neighbor with mason. Mason is a QT group where the members of the QT know each others alignment. Neighbor is a special QT group where the members of the group do NOT know each others alignment. It can be a town or scum ability. The town application would be for the town neighborizer to identify other town reads, and gain a QT with them, to get better reads on each other and to discuss things. The scum application would be for a scum neighborizer to try and get a feel for their target, perhaps try and convince them they are town, while trying to influence their opinions on others as well. I was a town neighborizer in ACOK, so I guess Faraday/Seacore wanted to play with the idea of giving the scumz a neigbhorizer.

Is there any particular reason you feel this is important to the game, or can we let it go now?

[LimMePls]

Actually, I think that we learned somewhat less from this dayvig than we would have from the discussion preceding a lynch.

Really? I think we learned something damn powerful: hascow is NOT stark. No "vig discussion" could have bought us that much of an insight into a single player slot.

[LimMePls]

@dana: really? Zoraster scum is one of the most talked about topics. What exactly don't you understand?

@DGB: Screenshots or it didn't happen.

[LimMePls]

Of the two leading wagons, I am still not really seeing the zoraster case.

What do you mean you don't "see" the Zoraster case? Do you mean you don't understand the points against him, or that you don't agree with those points? If a) then reread/ISO/ask clarifying questions. If b) state specifically which points you don't agree with.

Sure, he's said scummy things, but he's done more scumhunting than Raivann.

I agree that Raivann is also scummy. If you simply disagree which you find scummier, then fine. But this post seems to be a defense, yet you claimed you didn't "see" the case. Please clarify your stance on Zoraster.

[LimMePls]

Well, we're of the opinion I thought that Governor isn't going to make or break this game. We have a confirmed Lannister, but how much help is he really when he can't give reasons behind his suspicions beyond quoting things and making devil horns at them? To me, it sounds like a win-win; Either cow stays alive and confirmed with the added bonus of governor should we want it, or scum waste their kill on him, and it's much better than say, if we raise someone who's also power, or we raise scum.

This is like the 4th or 5th time that Shadow has implied that non-Stark = confirmed Lannister. Do you not see the fail in that line of thought Shadow?

[LimMePls]

Oh, and it looks like Magua-hand isn't gonna happen. Between hascow hand or Benmage hand, I'm going with Benmage. MOI has already explained why.

Unraise
Raise: Benmage

[LimMePls]

Flavor says that Zoraster wasn't bluffing at the end.

hasdgfas and Locke are confirmed town, as far as I'm concerned.
Shadow remains a strong town read.
GreyICE was a townread, but DTMaster, meh, not so much at this point.

I highly doubt Raivann is Stark. diddin rode her lynch over Zoraster's for a long time (till one hour before lynch, as it turns out). I could see him jumping onto a buddy's wagon at the end, but not jumping from a buddy's wagon if it was obvious someone else was going to be lynched.

Actually, looking at the wagon on diddin yesterday, I am disinclined to believe that any of Raivann, MagnaofIllusion, xvart, or Zdenek are Stark.

So:

VOTE: Twilight Sparkle

Nominate: Mikujin

I agree with most of this, particularly the Raivann opinion. Another piece in Raivann's favor is that the interactions with Zoraster looked bad for him, but that's obviously moot at this point. Raivann is not a good lynch at the moment.

Townly
GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight

Chesskid

Feysal

Zoraster

Scummy
Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

Likely still 1-2 starks in here somewhere.

@Magua: What's the case on Twilight?

Vote: Mikujin
Nominate: Bunnylover

[LimMePls]

@Magua:

Not sure where I'm going to put my vote.

I'm debating with-in my head rather or not to vote Raivann, but if he town he just such an easy mislynch.

I mean even I think he's scum,

and I'm useless in my reads almost all my games except for three and one was with like 8 people left.

This. Great catch Magua.

Basically I'm self doubting my read.
Yes I think he scum.
Looking back at my past game, my reads are usually wrong.
Should I follow my reads that are usually wrong or consider something else.
That why I haven't voted. Their no discrepancy, I just don't know if I should trust my reads.
Like I said yesterday if we lynch Zoraster before Raivann, Raivann will still be viewed as scummy while the other way around Zoraster wouldn't have. So should I go with my read even though my mind tells me scum didn't lynch Raivann because they knew they could lynch him tomorrow or scum didn't lynch Raivann because he part of their group.
Bah, I hate how my mind work =/.


And yes I agree with Hasdgfas, DTM needs to speak up more and gives his opinions (that is what your saying?)

So Bunnylover wants to distance himself from his own opinions, but DTM needs to speak up more and give his opinions. Nice double-think.

Bunny's wishy-washy attitude with this fake scum hunting is scummy.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

This stinks of inside information.

Chesskid had soft claimed Tywin Lannister, by saying his character had been the Hand before. The scum may have believed him and thought that Tywin would be a power role. If Chesskid did that on purpose, it was actually well done... he managed to draw a night kill, saving someone else and avoiding his own potential policy lynch.

1)Why was this a soft-claim to Tywin? Tyrion had been the hand as well, so it was more just a soft claim to his role. I thought he might be setting up a fakeclaim, since I was of the opion that he was scum.
2)Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?

LynchMePls

I skipped him alpahbetically and left him for last. For whatever reason I'm finding it hard to get anything out of him. I'm a little unhappy with how quickly he's swapping his read on Raivann based solely on Magua's logic. As well, I'd really like to hear your reasoning for Raising Bunnylover.

Null with gut badtimes pings for now.

If by "raising" you mean "nominating", it's cause I think he's scum.

Changing my vote due to the Hands' wishes.

Unvote
Vote: Feysal

@Benmage: Why exactly are Bunnylover and Mikujin bad lynches?

[LimMePls]

2)Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?

yeah obviously Brynden Tully was the stark kill, STUPID FEYSAL

-hito

Hito, STFU and let him answer. Your defense of him before he could even respond is noted.

[LimMePls]

Hi everyone. Finally finished reading.

First thing that pinged my scumdar was the combo of posts 159 and 165

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

This post strikes me as a bit scummy. Particularly the last sentence.

Unvote
Vote: GreyICE

@Cow's post restriction-
The effort being put into figuring out alternative forms of communication seem pointless. He's been able to communicate so far, and I'm sure he's bright enough to communicate more if he has need.

I agree. In fact, the 'Let me leap forward and immediately start looking like I'm being awesomely pro-town by making a list of actions to communicate' is another instance of Grey trying to hard to appear town.

Though Benmage had declared Grey a VI, he had certainly made it clear that he was willing to lynch VIs, and this looks like LMP taking advantage of that. His reasons are basically "because he says he suspects everyone" and "trying too hard to look town"). Double meh. This looks very much instead like LMP throwing his weight behind a viable wagon on a town VI. This does, however, assume Grey is town so it's not very helpful at this point.

It also assumes that I was a) calling Grey a VI and b) Grey is a VI, both of which are not true. This was ABSOLUTELY not a VI lynch suggestion, and your insinuation that it is makes 0 sense to me. Accusing someone of actions that are blatant attempts to 'apppear town' is not calling them a VI.

[LimMePls]

Feysal's post 538 looks sketchy after diddin's flip with the "And from diddin" stuck in there.

Like so many others, I'm getting a scummy feel from zoraster. And from diddin. Raivann looks worse to me than either of them though. He posted some scum reads early on, but instead of keeping his vote on one of them, he voted Song of Ice and Fire, who had only posted once, less than a day earlier. There was no rhyme or reason to that vote, and what is worse, Raivann has since then tried to justify that vote and kept it there. Also, the way he replied twice to the same post, one hour part, looks simply weird. He first dares me to vote Song, then appears to mock the way I reported what I was up to.

I can definitely see a scum buddy wanting to cover his bases by giving that little honorable mention (while staying off the wagon) where it looked at the time like diddin could have ended up as the D1 lynch.

In fact, an ISO of Feysal shows the only things he said about diddin at all were these 2 plus the first thing he said which was, "I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction". That's it. About the perfect amount for a scum buddy wanting to look clean if diddin's lynch goes through, but not wanting to push the wagon at all.

QFT.

Raivann is not diddin's partner. Raivann is not Stark. I'm pleased that Benmage took her lynch off the table for today, because the amount of people who are for her lynch despite the Raivann/diddin interaction D1 is mindboggling. Ghostlin will reply with something about bussing. Their interaction does not read like bussing, is what I'm saying.

Twilight Sparkle remains scum. Happy with my vote there. Would be happier if other people moved their vote there as well.

Am coming around to Nexus-as-scum.

Am coming around to Thor-as-town. His repeated "I haven't read the thread, nyeah nyeah," is annoyingly antitown, but just seems like one of those "Duh" things where I can't imagine Thor-as-scum saying to themselves, "I know! I'll claim I haven't read the thread, and then I'll start mocking everyone who calls me on it! Being a pest in a game where I know there's another killing faction that could shoot me seems like a great move!"

For those who are not voting Twilight Sparkle, I'd like to know if it's because a) you think they're town, or b) you think they're null-to-scum, but you have a larger scumread on someone else.

@Magua, what's your read of Feysal. Elaborate as much as possible please.

[LimMePls]

For those who are not voting Twilight Sparkle,

I'd like to know if it's because a) you think they're town, or b) you think they're null-to-scum, but you have a larger scumread on someone else.

B. Feysal is playing like Feysal scum to me. His focus on Raivann in particular, but his play yesterday in regards to diddin as well.

[LimMePls]

Twilight Sparkle is town.

DrippingGoofball is scum. Are you ever actually going to clarify why you downgraded your suspicion of me at the point you did and not after Zoraster's claim and flip?

I have to agree with this sentiment. Also I don't understand why Mina's large wall of "oh woe is me" means they are town.

[LimMePls]

LMP, you missed this:

Scum are less likely to realize that scum would not kill members of their own faction. True or false?

TS, I have reasons for my question. SO STFU.

[LimMePls]

B. Feysal is playing like Feysal scum to me. His focus on Raivann in particular, but his play yesterday in regards to diddin as well.

Elaborate on what makes up Feysal-scum to your meta eyes. I have some limited ideas but I know you have much more direct experience than I do.

He's playing like Feysal-scum from Return to Liten. I have off-site experience with Feysal, but to my recollection he was town in all the games I played with him off site. His play here is too... disengaged (for lack of a better word). Feysal is a ferocious player when he's town. I've seen him write short novel length posts analyzing MULTIPLE players to find the needles in the haystack. His play here reads like he already has the answers, so he isn't searching. Yes he tosses in some occasional player names to look like he isn't too focused, but the totality of his scum hunting has revolved around diddin and Raivann. Do an ISO on him and do a CTRL-F. Type the word "diddin" in, and then search through his ISO. It's ALL OVER THE PLACE with vague/half-hearted suspicions but is NEVER preceded by a vote tag. Raivann reads like a scapegoat to me. He pushed diddin, but would always fall back to "but Raivann is more scummy". Now that diddin has flipped Stark, Feysal is in a tough spot. On the one hand, as most of us have observed, Raivann is less likely scum. On the other hand, Feysal can't back off him, or the diddin distancing from D1 becomes even more pronounced. So he's basically forced himself into "push Raivann harder", but it's pretty much completely fail.

Lastly there is this:

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

Quick question – why so quick to assume Locke is town? Couldn't he possibly be scum of a faction different from DGB / Zoraster? Do you have reason to think we only have a single scum faction in a game this size?

I simply don't see where the scum reads on him are coming from. I'm leaning town on Locke, though it is not a strong read, his ISO is too short for that. If he belongs to any scum faction at all, I've not seen indication of that yet. I have no reason to believe there would be only one scum team either, in fact I find two more likely.

I think MOI was on to something here and Feysal backtracked it. It looks to me like Feysal has inside knowledge of the setup of the game. When confronted here he had no choice but to change it to "I simply don't see where the scum reads come from". But what he had said earlier implied that DGB/zoraster interactions somehow made Locke town.

*spreads arms wide*

*Points to the top of his post*

[LimMePls]

Less Benmage PR speculation; More Feysal votes/comments.

[LimMePls]

@Everyone: Please pay attention to this, it's really pretty stunningly clear what's going on here:

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

Quick question – why so quick to assume Locke is town? Couldn't he possibly be scum of a faction different from DGB / Zoraster? Do you have reason to think we only have a single scum faction in a game this size?

I simply don't see where the scum reads on him are coming from. I'm leaning town on Locke, though it is not a strong read, his ISO is too short for that. If he belongs to any scum faction at all, I've not seen indication of that yet. I have no reason to believe there would be only one scum team either, in fact I find two more likely.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

On D1, Feysal makes a comment that implies there is only 1 scum team. MOI, who having experienced ACoK and knowing that most games this size tend to multiple scum teams rightly questions him on why he is implying only 1 scum team. Feysal back tracks and tries to cover it up, basically saying "I don't think there is only 1 scum team, I just don't think he's scum". Then at the start of D2, bam Feysal is out and out saying he thinks there is only 1 scum team, something that he previously said wasn't likely when trying to cover up the fact that he hinted at there only being 1 scum team. Nevermind that two stark flips is NOT convincing evidence for only 1 mafia. Feysal knows something the rest of us don't. My guess is that he knows the stark team is large and thus there is only 1 scum team.

So Feysal is scum and should be lynched. TS' white knighting Feysal when I started to question him about his assertion that the Chesskid kill must be the Stark kill is also relevant and means a TS/Feysal team is not unlikely.

[LimMePls]

Also LMP – regarding the One scum team theory I can definitely see it being suspicious being leaked Day 1. That said do you not think, based on the data that we have (3rd party lyncher role, two kills, no distinguishing flavour in the kills) that it looks more likely in the light of Day 2 that there is a single Mafia group?

Because players other than Feysal (including myself) have espoused it today.

That said I think Feysal is a very appealing NK target for a Vig or any SK wanting Town cred.

Sure, but he hinted at it on D1, then when confronted over it, completely back tracked it (which was a lie and should be grounds for lynching all on its own, because if you look at his initial words its clear he was implying that DGB/zoraster interactions meant LL was town). That it turned out to be more likely given N1 only STRENGTHENS the argument that he had information on D1 the rest of us didn't.

[LimMePls]

@MOI: Also, why is Feysal better for a vig than lynching? We have pretty clear meta and in game behavioral reasons to think he is scum. While I certainly sympathize with the TS wagon, why is it so much better than Feysal?

[LimMePls]

2) Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?

Of course. Who else? Unless you're suggesting we had a lucky doctor or role blocker, the Starks must have killed Chesskid. My theory is that they thought he was Tywin, and killed him thinking he would be a power role.

The fact that you say "who else" and then go on to list multiple other explanations for a Stark kill is hilarious. One of the (but certainly not the only) reasons I find your "theory" incredibly unlikely is because I can't fathom an anti-town faction EVER killing chesskid on N1. I find a doc protect on one of the "confirmed" players or a RB on the Stark killer much more likely.

Changing my vote due to the Hand's wishes.

So you are voting me only because Benmage called me scummy, and he has never even explained why?

Nice try, but no. My vote was on a player the Hand had said was off limits (ie a player they would use the governor power on). Therefore I moved my vote. But now that I've dug into your play some more its STARTLINGLY clear that this vote is infinitely better. Why are you trying to twist the events to make me look bad?

Also, what about my Raivann case don't you agree with? As for diddin, I find that worthless. Seriously, you can't call someone scummy for having a correct scumread just because they were voting someone else they had a better case on. And considering that you were also voting Raivann, in fact you started that wagon, I don't know what you're suspecting me for.

LOL! People, please look at Feysal squirm here. He actually wants town cred for his play in regards to diddin yesterday. That play SCREAMED distancing scum. Go back and look at it, seriously. As for your Raivann case, it has been pointed out MULTIPLE times that the interactions of diddin and Raivann do not look scummy, and if you SERIOUSLY believe your 1 scum team theory, shouldn't that make Riavann less likely scum? Why do you keep ignoring this?

Apparently you think that having a town read implies inside knowledge of there being only one scum team. Really, I simply had a town read on Locke, based on some comments of his I liked. I never said anything about DGB's or zoraster's interactions making Locke town. I said that between zoraster and Locke, I was more confident of Locke being town, in other words, I found Locke more townish than zoraster, who I found scummy.

ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE TRYING TO DISTORT THE FACTS. Here are the posts one more time, in the order of their occurance:

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

Quick question – why so quick to assume Locke is town? Couldn't he possibly be scum of a faction different from DGB / Zoraster? Do you have reason to think we only have a single scum faction in a game this size?

I simply don't see where the scum reads on him are coming from. I'm leaning town on Locke, though it is not a strong read, his ISO is too short for that. If he belongs to any scum faction at all, I've not seen indication of that yet. I have no reason to believe there would be only one scum team either, in fact I find two more likely.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

Now, where in that first post do you EVER state that your view on LL is NOT from the interactions with DGB and zoraster? Also, it DOESN'T MATTER if you claim you had a town read on him and it was then BOLSTERED by DGB/Zoraster interactions. The fact is that you IMPLY that interactions with DGB/Zoraster (who you are calling scummy) make LL more likely town. But that can only be true if you believe there is only 1 scum team, OTHERWISE IT WOULD MEAN ONLY THAT HE ISN'T PARTNERS WITH DGB/ZORASTER.

Feysal continues to dodge this point because he has no good reasoning for it. By simple fact if you think that Player A looks more town because of an interaction with Player B (who you think is scum), then by NECESSITY you must assume 1 scum team. Otherwise the interaction would only mean that Player A isn't scum WITH player B, not that Player A is less likely scum.

I guess I need to be clearer on this: I have never said that I would find Locke town based on any interaction with DGB or Zoraster. I had a town read on him independent of either of them, though not very strong, based on some of his posts that I liked. Part of why I found DGB and zoraster scummy then was because they were pushing Locke for no apparent reason, but that was not what gave me the town read on Locke.

The only time I ever mentioned Locke, DGB and zoraster in the same sentence was in my post #538. "Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town." Nothing there about what I found Locke townish for.

Straight from the horses FUCKING mouth! First, "I have never said that I would find Locke town based on any interaction with DGB or Zoraster" is a lie. We've all seen the quote, so I don't think I need to explain why its a lie. He still refuses to acknowledge that being "more confident of Locke being town" REQUIRES the belief of 1 scum team, yet on D1 he was specifically saying that he thought there were two teams.

Since DGB is on Benmage's list of acceptable lynches, this might even have a chance of succeeding. My case on DGB follows.

I love how when you move your vote because of Benmage's requirement that is just fine, but when I did you try to tar it as some sort of scummy action. Hypocrisy FTW!

Disliking the recent post by LMP.
Twilight Sparkle is a Knight in shining white armor!
All TS did was answered a question that was asked at someone else. Never knew that was a tell of some sort. Especially since the answer was very obviously.
I'm just confused as to how this makes TS a Knight and give Scummy vibes?

Your comments on Feysal are blah. Backtracking I can kinda see where your getting that from. But from what I've read, this is how I processed it: "DGB is scum. Between Zoraster and LL: LL is townier then Zoraster." He doesn't compare DGB/Zoraster, so how exactly is that saying their is only one scum team? Should everyone never have any town reads because their are two scum team? No.

To me its seems like your trying to appear scum hunting, while you aren't. Your just trying to make things bigger then they are.

I have nothing nice to say about this post, so I'm just officially registering my frustration with it and going to refrain from saying the things I really want to say.

All the time I have for this thread has been spent reading it. I do want to unvote after Feysal's last post and remove him to the backburner for the present.

unvote, vote: Nexus

Welcome back from sick V/LA!

unnominate, nominate: bunnylover

WHY! What on EARTH was townie about that post, it was FULL of completely FAIL responses to the case! OMG I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

re post 1253: I'm calling TS/Feysal scum team right now.

[LimMePls]

A Dance With Dragons to be published July 12, 2011.

REJOICE!

[LimMePls]

Fuck it.

STARKS DIDN'T KILL CHESSKID, I DID. Discuss.

[LimMePls]

...Wait a minute. I thought your whole theory was that Feysal was scum because he'd slipped and revealed there'd been only one scumteam all along.

From your POV, it should have been obvious that there were two scumteams, because the Stark kill was missing.

(That explains your annoyance with hito correcting your "mistake," though.)

Also, why did you choose to kill chesskid?

^Mina, by the way.

Multiple town aligned vig kills is ABSOLUTELY plausible. So missing Stark kill does NOT mean that there is more than 1 team. And you Mina should definitely know better.

LMP, are you claiming SK?

Quite possibly the dumbest question I've ever heard. Scummy too.

If that's true, btw, your attack of feysal is even moooooore off base.

False.

@LMP: Why the fuck did you claim.

1) I think my information is relevant to the town. I didn't want to claim it straight away because I wanted to gauge reactions. This is why I specifically probed Feysal on the subject, and why I wanted HIS answer, and not others. I wanted to understand why he was so certain that the Stark kill was Chesskid since I knew it wasn't. I wouldn't want to die without the information out there.
2) The information is relevant because if there is a town RB out there, they should probably take a special look at whoever they blocked last night, there is a good chance it was scum. If there is a town Doc out there, they should probably feel that their protected target is less likely scum (granted they probably already thought this to target them, but solidifying the read can't hurt).
3) Certain people couldn't just let my questions go and realize that they must have SOME basis, they had to keep digging at it. Since I wanted to claim it today anyways, I felt the timing was about right.

The fact that you can ask this question and in the same post ask this one:

@Everyone else: Should we assume now that their is two scum teams, and one of the teams where blocked?

Means you should have been able to answer your own question. Which means it wasn't really a genuine question.

Wait, what? Chess was Lancaster aligned though; the only other flip was Stark, and I'd think you'd have a hard time convincing me the mafia iced one of their own.

The remaining possibilities are these: (Ordered in how feasible I like them.)

1) You are scum, soft claiming Vig/SK.
2) There's a protection role/RB role in the house (which, in that case, protection role, do not claim), and you are a town aligned Vig.
3) See above, replace the word vig with SK.
4) 2 or 3, only Starks didn't kill/can't kill last night (not likely).
5) More than one mafia group in this game and one of them was blocked from acting last night. (This is a combo of 1, you're soft claiming Vig, and telling the truth in a way we'd like to hear.)

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Your need to fluff post is noted. As is your sitting the fence to wait and see how the town responds to my claim.

In other words, I disagreed with you, and somehow disagreeing with you makes me scummy. Get over it. In my experience, doctors or role blockers are very rarely that lucky on the first night, and if Chesskid was not the Stark kill, there would be two unexplained deaths last night instead of one. The simplest explanation is most often true, and here the simplest explanation was that Chesskid was killed by the Starks.

If you knew all along you had killed Chesskid, what was the purpose of asking me about it? And by the way, you're being real funny accusing me of having inside information, when it was in fact you who had it.

Nice twists. First, disagreeing with me isn't scummy, the fact is that YOU VERY OBVIOUSLY LEFT OFF PLAUSIBLE ALTERNATIVES FOR EXPLAINING THE NIGHT KILL AND LEAPT AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO CALL 1 SCUM TEAM (which you had hinted at but then backtracked D1). YOUR PLAY SAYS YOU HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THE TOWN BELIEVING THERE IS ONLY ONE SCUM TEAM.

The obvious implications are that you a) Know there is only 1 scum team and want town cred for having "realized" it first or b) Know your kill got stopped so want to throw town off track by misleading them with a false "1 scum team" theory.

I'm not. At the time you voted me, you had not yet dug into my play, you just accused me of having inside information. The way you moved your vote to me looked like you were just using Benmage as an excuse.

Laughable. Flail some more Feysal. The fact is that my top scum read was "No Sir'd" by the Hand so I moved to my next scummy read. THE SAME THING YOU JUST DID. But somehow when I did it you imply its scummy but when you do it it's not a problem. FLAIL FOR ME BUDDY!

LOL! People, please look at LynchMePls resort to rhetoric here. He actually is dodging my question about him also voting Raivann. That play was only different from mine in that I noticed diddin also and he did not. Go back and look at it, seriously. As for the Raivann case, it has been pointed out several times that the interactions of diddin and Raivann do look scummy and there may have been bussing involved, and Raivann continues to look scummy for not having been able to explain his play. I have not ignored the counterarguments, I simply do not believe them.

Two can play that game.

Judge for yourself folks.

I am not trying to distort the facts, but you apparently are. Whether that is out of malice or incompetence remains to be seen.

What you're saying there is completely unintelligible. That first post of mine did not say that my view of Locke would not be based on interactions with DGB or zoraster. It also did not say I would not like to eat peanuts. The way this works is that you need to prove that I said something and explain why it is scummy. I do not need to disprove something I never said in the first place. I have never said or implied that my town read on Locke would have anything to do with either DGB or zoraster.

I have never said or implied that my town read on Locke would have anything to do with either DGB or zoraster.

THIS
IS
A
LIE

I've already quoted the sequence of posts at least 2 times. I'm not doing it again.

Yes, you do need to explain why it is a lie. You keep saying I have lied, but that don't make it so. You need to prove it.

Just because you ignore the parts of my posts where I prove this doesn't mean I haven't already done this.

I pray to God you know what you are doing. That said the concept of a Serial Killer or second Mafia group looks to be more probable if you are claiming Town aligned killer and diddin not being your kill.

I feel pretty freaking sure that my claim was the right move. The information gained for the whole town regarding last nights kills is worth my soft-claim. Trust me on this one.

LMP: I think I might see where you're going here, but can you elaborate on your thoughts when you saw Feysal's reaction to the Chesskid kill?

See above. Pretty sure I've covered this in this post.

My theory is that no player should be considered untouchable if they're not completely confirmed.

THE WHOLE POINT OF A GOVERNOR IS THAT THEY GET TO DECLARE UNTOUCHABLES. If you don't like this then you should have pushed harder for someone who would immediately burn the governor ability. A quick look in your ISO turns up a quote where you very specifically say you think the governor power should be used and not burned. And to boot it also gives another scum connection:

AT EVERYONE: PLEASE READ THIS QUOTE

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

WOO BOY! Nice Buddy to Xtoxm there. He thinks Xtoxm gives a good suggestion "for someone with a single post", but then disagrees with the suggestion saying we should give the governor to someone who will use it. So basically the whole purpose of mentioning Xtoxm there was to buddy him. What alignment was he again... oh right, Stark.

I find the "frustration" at LMP claiming insincere and don't like at all that she asks everyone else what it's ok to assume about the scum team, instead of just thinking it through herself. Possibly she already knows the scum setup.

As I've stated before, I'm also bothered by her constant repetition that she doesn't trust her reads and implies she's stupid. She's playing the VI card to the fullest extent and it seems intentional, like she's using it to hide behind in case of future scum slips.

I agree 100000%

There's a possible connection between she and feysal too, but it won't mean much until one of them flips.

Point this out please. This only makes me feel EVEN BETTER about my vote and nomination.

TL;DR

Feysal's relatively short D1 play has connections to BOTH fliipped Starks. His play suggested inside information on D1 that he backtracked from when called on it by MOI, but then RETURNED TO ASSERT AS TRUE ON D2. He then played true to his scum meta with a lurk. Now he is flailing like crazy.

FEYSAL IS ABOSLUTELY A STARK. PLEASE VOTE ACCORDINGLY.

[LimMePls]

I highly doubt you were claiming and in your mind you were going, "IM CLAIMING SO THAT I CAN GIVE A TOWN RB AND THE TOWN DOCTOR A STRONGER READ ON WHO THEY TARGETED!"

Doubt it all you want, that doesn't make it untrue. It's more than that though, it's also providing the town further insight into the flips from the night before, not just the information that any RBs or Docs gain (although that is certainly a plus). If there is a town RB/JK, there target should receive extra scrutiny from their perspective.

LMP, are you claiming SK?

Quite possibly the dumbest question I've ever heard. Scummy too.

I don't see why a town-aligned player with a night kill would target chess

I seriously can't believe that at all. You see NO reasons a town aligned player would target chess? See below, and I want you to specifically reply on why you didn't see ANY of these reasons, let alone one of them.

What are your reads of Benmage and MOI?

and I also found it odd that you said you killed him without claiming vig.

Let me get this straight. I've just claimed a kill, and obviously I'm claiming town aligned. So how did I claim a kill without claiming vig? Your soft attempt at rolefishing is noted.

TS asked you why you targeted chess and I don't think you've answered that unless I missed it.

Missed the question, but frankly I'm amazed it was even asked.

a)His play was nothing but static. He basically spent the whole day shouting "zOMG KILL MOI" with 0 reasons aside from their personal feud. I felt he needed to be removed from the game.
b)As evidenced from ACOK, and as I've seen in multiple other large games, if the town doesn't clean up the idiot players, the scum sure as hell won't do it for them. The town will LOSE when these players are left to make the end game decisions. So even if he wasn't scum, he was anti-town and needed to go.
c) He soft claimed a character who was previously the hand (ie Tywin or Tyrion). Both of those roles have a higher than average likelihood of being PR, yet a PR wouldn't blatantly claim like that. Therefore his claim looked to me like he was setting up a Tywin/Tyrion fake claim. The only other possibility is that he was a VT fishing to draw the NK, but in that case it mitigates the damage my shot could do. There is more to this that I choose not to explain at this time. When it becomes relevant, I will happily extend this point further.
d)There was explicit approval of the shot from multiple of my town reads (Benmage and MOI off the top of my head).

Instead of calling me dumb and scummy for being suspicious of you, why don't you provide your reasoning for targeting chess?

I didn't call you dumb, I called the question dumb. I've explained why I think the question is dumb. I didn't call you scummy "for being suspicious of me" I'm calling the question scummy because it reads like thinly veiled fishing for more of my claim. Nothing else about my role needs to be claimed at this time. If you're town you'd fully understand why. As for explaining my reasoning for kill CK, as stated above I'm frankly stunned anyone would need an explanation.

[LimMePls]

b)As evidenced from ACOK, and as I've seen in multiple other large games, if the town doesn't clean up the idiot players, the scum sure as hell won't do it for them. The town will LOSE when these players are left to make the end game decisions. So even if he wasn't scum, he was anti-town and needed to go.

c) He soft claimed a character who was previously the hand (ie Tywin or Tyrion). Both of those roles have a higher than average likelihood of being PR, yet a PR wouldn't blatantly claim like that. Therefore his claim looked to me like he was setting up a Tywin/Tyrion fake claim. The only other possibility is that he was a VT fishing to draw the NK, but in that case it mitigates the damage my shot could do. There is more to this that I choose not to explain at this time. When it becomes relevant, I will happily extend this point further.

In your (b) you say you think he's an idiot, but in your (c) you're saying you expected him to play like a smart player and not soft claim if he were really a PR. If he's such an idiot isn't there another possibility that he stupidly soft claimed a PR? Also, he didn't only soft claim his character, he stated:

I don't want to die at night because I have an awesome PR
that's why the VI act

Sure, it seemed like he was joking. But there was certainly a chance he wasn't (he was an idiot after all, right?) I don't follow how you could be SO sure he didn't really have a PR. Sure enough to kill him without a claim.

The CHANCE that he could have actually had a PR was factored into my decision. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER TO ADD TO THIS AT THIS POINT. If you want to find me scummy for killing CK, then so be it, I'm not going down this road any further, I think it would be harmful for town to explain further. I think the insinuation that CK was a bad town-aligned kill is COMICAL.

d)There was explicit approval of the shot from multiple of my town reads (Benmage and MOI off the top of my head).

This certainly shouldn't be included in a list of your reasons for targeting chess since it didn't happen until D2. Of course MOI is going to be glad chess is gone - he clearly found him obnoxious and you said yourself the second part of D1 was nothing but "KILL MOI!" over and over. And you knew Benmage would be glad to be rid of a VI since he had made that abundantly clear. Are you saying you chose chess in anticipation of their approval? You asked me my reads of MOI and Benmage. I also have a strong town read on both of them, but I don't think that's a good reason to kill someone you think they'll approve of, especially when that person may be a PR.

INCORRECT. Quoting both Benmage and MOI from D1:

VIGS – Bunnylover should join Chess on your “Great Shooting Tex” list.

Vig/SK wanting to look vig… Shoot here:
Danakillsu
Chesskid3
Nexus
Bunnylover

That is clearly in the public record, why are you hemming and hawing about it? You say you have a strong town read of both of them, and both of them EXPLICITLY approved a vig shot on CK. Where is the problem?

That being said, there is clearly more to your decision than you're able to say, so though I still have one eyebrow raised I'll drop it until you're able to clarify.

You say this, but the contents of your post prior to this statement doesn't look like someone dropping it. So why the discrepency?

Posted on GRRMartin's blog:
Mar. 3rd, 2011 at 9:11 AM
No. Sorry. Not done yet.

NO NO NO! READ FURTHER! He goes on to say in that same post that the book WILL be released on that date, that he is close enough to finish that there is plenty of time to get the book to press to meet that release date. His point was "While I technically have not finished the book, IT WILL BE RELEASED ON JULY 12 2011.

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will be in your favorite bookstore on

TUESDAY, JULY 12, 2011


Yes, I know. You've all seen publication dates before: dates in 2007, 2008, 2009. None of those were ever hard dates, however. Most of them... well, call it wishful thinking, boundless optimism, cockeyed dreams, honest mistakes, whatever you like.

This date is different. This date is real.

None of the previous release dates have ever had that backing straight from the horses mouth. So despite what I'm sure are some fans perfectly valid reservations at getting their hopes up, this one look like the goods.

[LimMePls]

@Magua,

I'm not sure I understand your question. My theory is that one of these things is what's going on with Feysal:

• Feysal knows that there is only 1 scum team because he is on it and used the size/powers/ect of the team to deduce there wasn't another team. On D1 he made a post that seemed to say there was only 1 scum team. MOI picked up on it and pushed him on it. He backtracked and said definitively "I don't think there is only 1 scum team". Then when D2 started he immediately said "There must only be 1 scum team" by way of the NK results. However, aren't there PLENTY of other possibilities that make 2 teams still perfectly valid? So how can he be so sure?
  
• Feysal knows that there are 2 scum teams based on his team's size/powers/ect. On D1 he made a statement that MOI thought implied he knew there was only 1 scum team. Feysal was being truthful when he tried to change this stance (although clumsily). Then on D2, when the stark kill is missing (which he knows cause I'm pretty sure he is a stark) he uses that to try to create a smoke screen/misinformation amongst town by propagating a false "only 1 scum team" theory.

At this point I think there may be 1 or two scum teams. It depends entirely on who is responsible for the diddin kill. As I've stated otherwise, multiple town aligned night killing roles existed in ACOK, there is no reason that can't be true here. Alternatively the diddin kill could be SK (not sure if you classify this as "2 teams"). The point is, given the information that a townie has now, it may be more/less likely for one than the other, but it shouldn't be as clear cut as Feysal portrayed it. IMO Feysal had an agenda in promoting "There is only 1 scum team" idea, and that agenda is almost certainly anti-town.

Is this not clear? If so, does it clear up your problem? If not, please explain further because I don't understand.

[LimMePls]

@LMP #1326: What would Feysal gain by saying their is only one scum team and lieing about it? Regardless if their is one or two scum team, our job as town is to lynch scum. If the town mindset is their is only one scum team, then were going to eliminate one scum team till something changes that mind set.
This is where I lose your train of thought on Feysal is scum, because I don't see the benefits for scum Feysal or any scum in that matter to lie.

You seriously see no benefit in Feysal-scum wanting the town to believe things that aren't true? Or perhaps proposing something he knows is untrue so that when it's proven untrue later he can go "Oops, looks like I was wrong about that" for town cred? I could sit around and conjecture any number of motivations for him doing it, so this question is pretty pointless. If you really believe he isn't doing that, then fine. But if you do, then what's it matter what his motivation is, it's invariably anti-town.

@LMP again: Are you willing to say who you are going to shoot next? If you aren't thats fine.

This is an INCREDIBLY anti-town question for any number of reasons. Clearly I'm not answering it.

[LimMePls]

Welcome back Ghostlin. You still sitting a fence about my claim, or you hopping if you don't bring it up we'll all forget your scummy response?

[LimMePls]

The problem with that platform, LMP, is that until one knows where the kills came from, it's not unheard of to take a stance like Feysal did. Or even waffle on it when presented with alternate information. At face value, Diddin could have been a vig kill and Chess the Stark kill. Or, Chess the Stark kill and Diddin the (Stannis/Dani/whatever faction) kill. Either is perfectly believable (that there are one, or two teams), and I could see either being argued for in that regard. Maybe he's crumbling too hard, or maybe he has a one-track mind. I don't think it's the tell you're making it out to be, especially now that we know it's much more probably that there are 2 scum teams, and Feysal has been more in favor of the notion of one.

You've described yourself that it could be either situation (and that he could be scum in either), but I don't find the way he waffled indicative of either, just narrow minded.

Given the rest of his play, in PARTICULAR the play in regards to diddin and xtoxm, I find it much more likely it's scummy and not "narrow minded".

[LimMePls]

Why aren't we lynching Bunnylover?

Cause Feysal is without a doubt scum, while Bunnylover is possibly just that bad.

Do you have a problem with the Feysal case DGB?

[LimMePls]

@Ghostlin: Do you deny that everything you listed was completely obvious to anyone with two working brain cells? If so, why did you post it? If not, please elaborate on how any of those things weren't obvious.

When I see a post following a big piece of information being relayed to town that goes "Here let me list a bunch of obvious observations. Then let me say I'm not sure what to think." my scumdar goes off. Scum have all kinds of reasons to want town to chime in first. It's not paranoia my friend, it's scum hunting.

If by "Did you make the claim so you could expand your scumlist" you mean "Did you realize that making your claim would be an excellent opportunity to watch people's reactions to it, as well as all the other reasons it was good to make it" then the answer is a definitive yes. If that isn't your question, you need to reask it, cause I'm not sure what you're getting at.

P-edit: Ignoring BL's continued attempt to out more of my role than I am willing to claim. BL's unwillingness to move off the topic when I've SPECIFICALLY said I'm not answering the question is noted.

[LimMePls]

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Danakillsu
Raivann
Shadow1psc
Nexus
Setael
DTMaster
Zdenek
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

The middle portion of the list is full of nullreads, so its exact ordering is a bit fuzzy.

[LimMePls]

You don't get to dictate who we're allowed to suspect and vote, or where we're allowed to hunt for scum.

Seeing as how the town GAVE HIM A GOVERNOR, I think he does in fact get to dictate who we're allowed to vote.

Setael: Here's a simple counterquestion for you. If you believe in the BL case, are getting all the information for it, then why aren't you voting for it?

Good fucking posting.

How is this good posting? Isn't Bunnylover on the "cannot be lynched today" list?

Come to think of it, I didn't even know GW was in this game. So no, NOT good posting.

I’ve read it and just want to be sure we are on the same page.

Points 1, 2 and 5 are all the same point – Zdenek is being inconsistent and thus scummy.
Point 3 – Making safe, convenient stances is scummy.

I’m not sure what exactly you are saying in Point 4 but I don’t see the scumminess there.

Your slot is guilty of exactly those same offenses in Points 1-3, 5 as Zdenek is.

Inconsistency – I’ve pointed out this in my case regarding my slot. Others have pointed out how Hito’s “Iso Extraveganza” has players with Town reads being listed in second tier suspects.

Safe, convienant stances – As others have again mentioned the catch-up spectacular ended up listing 3 suspects who were either already under fire and a primary counter wagon to you (Thor) or low profile players being suspected. Add to that my suspicions regarding why you choose ‘Suspect 2’ over 'Suspect 1'.

That catch-up post is exactly what I would expect to see from competent scum under fire for lack of Pro-Town play – a well-reasoned case against a player who isn’t likely to competently fire back.

I don’t see any of my concerns about your slot being addressed. Just a large post that says – LOOK OVER HERE!!! HE’S SCUMMY FOR X,Y,Z! DON’T PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT I AM GUILTY OF THE SAME CRIMES!!!

This. Plus, my experience with Zdenek is that he's mislynch bait. Every game I've been in with him (2 that I can think of off the top of my head plus 1 I modded) he was mislynched by the town. The fact that the case came out of left field when TS was being run up makes me feel pretty confident that it's a red herring.

Starts day two by voting for us. Really it is a pretty easy vote for him. He's right, we haven't done anything but what about Kast, Nexus, LMP (at this point, he has picked up since), Zdenek, Setael (ditto LMP), Thor or DTMaster? I'm not seeing the legit scum hunting that is present with MoI, it's opportunistic.

Deflection?

Now THIS is good fucking posting. I love the "but why me, everyone else is doing it too" defense. Pretty much always comes from scum.

IDIOT CLAIM. You were under 0 pressure.

Why would you ever kill a player softclaiming Twyin Lannister???

Read on. Disagree with your characterization of my claim. *shrug* WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP SAYING HE WAS SOFTCLAIMING TYWIN!? Clearly it was Tyrion!

The fact that LynchMePls is the one pushing for my death. He killed Chesskid, and I expect that if he can't have his way by day he will kill me by night.

[WIFOM]Pretty fair assumption.[/WIFOM]

Multiple town Night Vig's and a Day vig.. No....Just no. The mods are gonna want to be creative.

SK, maybe. Redirect maybe. 2 scums....I guess a maybe.

Trust me on this Benmage, it'll all make sense when the time comes to claim it out full. Just remember that ACOK had "vig-hander-out-guy", dayvig and triggered vengeful townie. So multiple town aligned killing roles is not out of the question. diddin = SK kill is also certainly a possibility.

Why would you ever kill a player softclaiming Twyin Lannister???

You advocate for Chess to be vigged here, well after his softclaiming of Twyin and softclaiming PR. Am I missing a subsequent change of position somewhere?

Second this question.

@LMP: We’re your third biggest scum read. How much of it is associative with Feysal?

Enough of it that I want him dead before you. That's why my vote is on him.

1. Two other players were voting for Bunnylover when you’ve gone after him for his ‘VI’ posting. Toeing the 'Benmage's approved hit list' line and not voting him while focusing your attention with laser accuracy against Bunnylover I find suspect.
2. If you don’t see the massive amount of words you threw at Bunnylover as something leading to a vote-worthy case why waste all that time pointing out someone you are ‘wary’ of and actually hunt scum?

MOI, Benmage has said multiple times that it's fine to attack his "no lynch" list, just not vote them. So why is Setael's stance on BL bad? I don't understand this.

[LimMePls]

@MOI: You're the one that attributed it to Ghostwriter, in your ISO 63. I was just assuming your quote was accurate. (insert required joke about knowing what happens when you assume...)

[LimMePls]

Nice. You are presented with not one but two direct counter-examples that show your stance isn’t strong and your response is to “choose to trust my own experience”. That’s fine. I’ll trust my own experience which says someone making the arguments you have made in the manner they have made them is scum.

Emphasis added – the bolded portion is classic. Attempting to minimize the opposing viewpoint by saying it's 'generic' and that it 'discourages' discussion is straw-manning.

So IMO the only question left from the MOI-Feysal interactions is: Why isn't MOI voting Feysal?

Also, we're less than a week from deadline so all of these people:

danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Nexus (1) Magua
Not voting (1) Thor665

are doing it wrong.

Also Also, these people:

Bunnylover (3) Ghostlin, xvart, Danakillsu

are both doing it wrong AND not paying attention.

@MOD:

Can we get prods on the non-V/LA players in this set {Bunnylover, Kast, Magua and DTMaster}?

[LimMePls]

Yes I'm really asking. It seems to me like the case on Feysal is better. Can you list the points against each and then explain why the TS read is stronger? At least so much stronger that you don't seem to even be entertaining a Feysal vote over TS, despite your continued noting of clearly scummy behavior from Feysal.

[LimMePls]

@ Kast
Which mistakes are you referring to? Also, you can ask anybody, I make mistakes AT LEAST as often as the next guy. Not trying to say I can never be scummy, just saying that it should be difficult for you to say whether I'm really making mistakes.

Well, out of the lynches that are available, I guess my preferred one is Zdenek. His vote and nomination both look fairly scummy to me.

unvote vote: Zdenek

unnominate nominate: Bunnylover

List your objections to the Feysal wagon please. Explain precisely why Zdenek is a better wagon.

[LimMePls]

This is wrong. He does get to veto a single player. If he wants to veto a player that town wants to lynch, then town should hold him to that and he should use the power to do what he says. As it is, he's just letting his ego run wild, providing half baked cases, and congratulating people who listen to him and provide cases for his preferred lynches. Meanwhile, he's protected the two most suspected players and allowed them free reign to continue playing as anti-town as possible without any repercussions. Raivann and BunnyLover are so safe, they can directly press our claimed vigs for more role info, and even after being told to stop it, they still each pushed without any repercussions.

While I agree with you that Bunnylover shouldn't be on the "no lynch" list, it doesn't change the fact that Benmage, having a governor ability, is free to declare to the group at large "these are the people I will use my power on". I also agree with your characterization of Bunny's play, although I don't remember Raivann doing anything quite so scummy. Since I don't think any of us want to play a game of chicken with our lynch vs no lynch as the stakes, naturally we're going to need to look elsewhere. I don't think this makes Benmage's use of the power wrong, I think it means if people have a problem with his "no lynch" list they should be very vocal about it. Otherwise they need to be voting someone else.

Does anyone out there really want to wagon one of his "do not lynch" list people so bad we're willing to risk a no lynch? I somehow doubt it. So yes, unless we're willing to call his bluff, he does get to dictate who we're allowed to vote today.

You were my #2 scum suspect when I first read the thread. When I wanted to unvote Feysal, that was the logical place for me to put my vote. I thought you'd be back right away. Looking back I see you posted that you'd be V/LA almost a full week which I'd forgotten about.

I still don't think you've adequately exlained that unvote. It read really scummy to me.

[LimMePls]

@dana
WHY!?

[LimMePls]

So because Zdenek is voting and nominating YOUR town reads, he must be scum? And its so scummy that it negates the BLATANT connections that Feysal has to TWO SCUM FLIPS?

dana is scum.

[LimMePls]

@dana: Benmage is voting and nominating the exact same way that Zdenek is. What is your read of Benmage?

[LimMePls]

Bunnylover, do you deny that Feysal has multiple blatantly scummy looking interactions with KNOWN SCUM PLAYERS? Here they are:

I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction", and the jury is still out for much of the playerlist.

I continue to have a scummy feel about diddin. However I will not put a vote there yet,

Like so many others, I'm getting a scummy feel from zoraster. And from diddin.

Over and over, and OVER on D1 he repeats a scummy read of diddin, but puts all the focus of his posts elsewhere. That by itself wouldn't be a big deal, but the fact that diddin FLIPPED STARK SCUM is incredibly telling. In that light it looks like pretty obvious distancing.

Then there is the Xtoxm interaction:

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

Nice Buddy to Xtoxm there. He thinks Xtoxm gives a good suggestion "for someone with a single post", but then disagrees with the suggestion saying we should give the governor to someone who will use it. So basically the whole purpose of mentioning Xtoxm there was to buddy him. What alignment was he again... oh right, Stark.

@Bunnylover: What about TS's case against Zdenek is better proof of scumminess than this?

Zdenek wagon reads like a last ditch mislynch attempt to me. I haven't seen anyone make an argument against Zdenek that is more compelling than this evidence against Feysal.

[LimMePls]

@LMP: Yes, Feysal did have interactions with them.
But thats the problem. He distances his self with one and befriends the other. As scum wouldn't he distance himself from both?
Didn't other people find Diddin scummy?
The xtoxm post is interesting as I can see why a scum player would say that. If Feysal is scum, then it would make sense for him to say it in case town does want to get rid of the governor power he can joined town by that post and if town wanted it on a pro-townie player he can go that route as well.

><

Look, obviously the scum aren't going to treat all of their buddies the exact same way, that would be like leaving a giant road map to finding their team if they ever flipped. So Feysal treating diddin one way and Xtoxm another is TERRIBLE reason to assume that means Feysal is town. If you look at both of those interactions without the others, they look like scummy interactions. Both of them have clearly pro-Stark agendas. Add them together, and you have a player with 2 suspicious connections to KNOWN STARKS. That is REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE OF A LINK.

Again, what specific evidence against Zdenek is as solid as the very clear points that connect Feysal with 2 Starks?

As for why Zdenek > Feysal, I believe its because Zdenek is trying to take advantage of everyone saying that TS isn't as strong a force as they should be and is trying to get rid of them before they become the pro-townie force they can be. Zdenek has responded to every one of TS post saying that is has a negative effect or its just plain scummy. Zdenek been tunneling TS.

"You believe scum-Zdenek would do this stuff" is all well and good. It's great that you are formulating opinions. What doesn't make sense to me is how you see your "belief" as somehow more profound than the actual proof sitting in front of us that is clear as day for anyone to read that FEYSAL HAS BLATANT SCUMMY LOOKING CONNECTIONS WITH THE ONLY TWO FLIPPED STARKS.

So because Zdenek is voting and nominating YOUR town reads, he must be scum? And its so scummy that it negates the BLATANT connections that Feysal has to TWO SCUM FLIPS?

dana is scum.

ZOMG! I THINK DANA IS WRONG SO HE MUST BE SCUM, RIGHT?
Cut it out, man, you're better than that.

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

@Ghostlin/DTMaster/Shadow/TS/Thor-
Your vote is currently wasted. We're 3-4 days from deadline. Please pick a lynch so we have time for a claim and time to evaluate.

My point exactly when I mentioned this days ago. Note that Ghostlin has since posted and is continuing to leave his vote stranded on a useless wagon.

While I agree now that I've had an inordinate amount of mistakes this time, you can actually look at my scum games. I don't make more mistakes in them.

Cut it out man, you're better than this.

Thereafter he has ignored my posts. How am I to defend myself if my opponent refuses to even talk to me?

Because I realized that trying to convince YOU that you are scum is POINTLESS. I have not dropped the case, I'm simply taking my case to people who can actually be persuaded.

Dana is now town

ARE YOU READING THE SAME GAME THAT I AM!?!?!?

Hold on. This is not what I expected at all. You soft claimed a PR, which is why I originally moved my vote. Once I became more sure you're scum, I expected a big fancy fake PR claim from you. If your claim won't help you like you say, then why did you say this:

This now makes me feel much better about Setael's unvote. If you thought he was claiming a PR, then I can understand your wanting to leave the wagon, and your resistance to my questions on why you were leaving the wagon. IGMEOY still though.

I’ve never played with Zdenek before. Do you have town and scum meta on him, for comparison’s sake?

Here are the 3 games I was referring to:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=15282
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=15717
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83&start=0

On recollection, I thought he was mislynched in all of them, but looking at Vanilla Town now, I see he wasn't in that game. I have been involved in leading mislynches on the slot. I don't think I have scum games, but that does not refute my point. My point is that he is often an easy target for scum looking to mislynch. So I'm viewing the case with skepticism since it came conveniently when you were being wagonned and needed an easy target. None of your points against him look as solid as the points against Feysal.

On Feysal, we’re finding his early play pretty scummy. He flutters around the use of the Governor, saying he wants a strong townie player to have the power and use it if needed. (Post 282) Yet in post 325 he commends Xtoxm for his suggestion of throwing the power away “despite not agreeing with him." Unlike LMP, we’re not sold on this being a Stark connection. (Link me to a game in which you’ve seen similar buddying of someone’s own team mate if you want to convince me. Am I the only one who thinks scum never actually buddy their buddies? The whole tell is that they either suck up to a townie, get town cred by defending a mislynch, or make them deliberately look bad after a flip. On the contrary, I find most scum have a phobia of saying anything good about their buddies, particularly unprompted.) But even now I can’t understand why that would be a good idea to Feysal when he wants the power in play. It is the complete opposite stance to his own.

Day one is also filled with an early and somewhat strong defense of Cow. Considering how little we knew about Cow and his powers at the time I don’t really like this. It feels like a heavy handed attempt to grab at some protown cred upon a possible lynch flip. Combine this with his early day two defense of Bunnylover and I think there is a pattern here of a player over defending others in situations that don’t really warrant it. Just feels off in how he goes about it. Like he knows these are two possible mislynches and wants to take the chance to scold the town and look good in the process.

However, once LMP and MoI start attacking him, Feysal comes into his own and provides a very good defense of himself. It might be because LMP’s Locke/Zor/DGB tell is pretty weak in my opinion and MoI is attacking him over semantics which never ends well. He comes out of this looking townie, but it’s not quite enough to wipe away all his early play. Still, we definitely are not convinced by LMP’s accusations, nor by his vehemence that anyone (e.g., dana) who finds another player more suspicious than Feysal is suspect. There is certainly some scumminess around Feysal, but it’s far from definitive. (It’s worth noting, though, that LMP’s dedication looks very townie, and it’s likely that he’s telling the truth about being responsible for Chess’s death.)

We still think our Zden case is much better than a possible Feysal lynch, however we are willing to switch our vote should it come to that.

None of this addresses the very strong distancing that was going on with diddin yesterday. Isn't that pretty damning evidence of scum? Repeated statements of "diddin is scum, but..." seem so blatantly scummy given diddin's flip it's sick. I seriously don't understand how people aren't seeing this.

Also, in specific:

(Link me to a game in which you’ve seen similar buddying of someone’s own team mate if you want to convince me. Am I the only one who thinks scum never actually buddy their buddies? The whole tell is that they either suck up to a townie, get town cred by defending a mislynch, or make them deliberately look bad after a flip. On the contrary, I find most scum have a phobia of saying anything good about their buddies, particularly unprompted.)

The point is that Feysal felt the need to post about Xtoxm's suggestion at all. As he said, he clearly felt the suggestion was sub-optimal, since he felt that the governor should not be burned, so why did the post need to be made at all? Also, the language of "despite only 1 post" is clearly a subtle defense of Xtoxm's not posting.

By itself is it strong evidence of Feysal-scum? No, not really. But when added with the very strong scummy interactions with diddin, it makes it fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Feysal is connected with the Starks. Add on top the D1 suggestion that there was only 1 scum team, that he then back tracked under pressure, but then re-asserted when D2 started, and the whole thing stinks. In clearly succinct points:

Feysal has:

• Connections to both flipped Starks
  
• Statements that read like informed minority
  
• Backtracking of said statements, which reads like a consciousness of guilt.

I see nothing in the Zdenek case that looks this compelling. The Zdenek case reads more like a case of "Zdenek is a poor player" than "Zdenek is scum".

[LimMePls]

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Setael
Nexus
Zdenek
Shadow1psc
DTMaster
Raivann
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Danakillsu
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

[LimMePls]

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

I don't think he is scum for disagreeing with me. I think he is scum for voting town. There's a difference. Obviously, this game is based on opinion. So my townreads are not town to anyone else, necessarily. But scum is more likely to vote for town, and he's voting for town. You think I'm scum because I'm not voting for the person in this game you think is scummiEST. That's not a scumtell. If you want to call it a double standard, you can go right ahead. The fact of the matter is, it WOULD be scummy for either of them, but Benmage is already town. Zdenek is not already town, so he's scum.

No there isn't a difference, you are playing word games. He isn't "voting town" he's voting his scum reads. You say he is voting town BECAUSE OF YOUR TOWN READ. Therefore you are saying you are voting him because he disagrees with you.

QED.

[LimMePls]

Didn't Zoraster's first fake-claim involve Littlefinger?

CLAIM TIME

I'm Tommen Baratheon. I become king if Joffrey dies, but I'm not ready for that responsibility. I need to have Petyr Baelish killed. If Joffrey or I die before Petyr does, I lose. If Petyr is killed (whether by getting lynched or night killed) or if Joffrey doesn't die, I win with the Lannisters.

I was told who Petyr is (Locke Lamora), but I don't know who Joffrey is. I wasn't told LL's alignment, but I can only guess the reason I'd be given this role is because he's not-Lannister and possibly to protect a Joffrey claim.

My power is this: each night I can pick one person to set up a QT to chat with for the rest of the game.

That's it. I had hoped more pressure would come on LL today, but when I realized it wouldn't, I figured I'd scum hunt today, hope LL got killed tonight, and I could use my QT to try and possibly hook up with Joff.

Something fishy is going on here. When zoraster claimed this, I assumed that Littlefinger didn't exist in the setup at all. Unfortunately Feysal never posted between this fake claim and zoraster's death, so we don't have a reaction to go off of. We do have this reaction the following day:

Another day. I have little to say about how yesterday ended. I never really got why so many people found Zoraster scummier than Raivann, but after his claim it was obvious he was lying, and had to die.

Of course at this point we'd already had the lynch and it was already clear he was lying, so there is a giant ball of WIFOM around this.

Littlefinger makes a suspect fakeclaim, as the mods would be putting the scum with this fake name at a diservice (the town is going to be suspicious of Littlefinger name claim). Of course they played around with this in ACOK, such as making Sandor Clegane and Tyrion town.

Plus, if Littlefinger-voyeur is your claim, why would you be "unhappy if you were killed without a chance to claim". DOES NOT COMPUTE.

This claim doesn't seem right to me. It smells like scum. This lynch should happen.

[LimMePls]

I can't believe this wagon is falling apart after that claim. WTF!?

@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

[LimMePls]

By your own logic why wouldn't you target LL? Near-confirmed town, the doc was sure to target him or Benmage... you just contradicted your own logic.

That's correct. The more the story evolves the more nonsensical it becomes. What are you waiting for with your vote?

[LimMePls]

What's your read on Raivaan? Are you so sold on Feysal or is it just trying to get in a lynch at this stage? If we get some movement going towards Raiv we can muddle this through just fine as this has been a pretty active game.

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Setael
Nexus
Zdenek
Shadow1psc
DTMaster
Raivann
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Danakillsu
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

1) He's on the scummy side of null, but not much. I've been putting my full reads out given the nature of my claim and the possibility I won't be alive tomorrow.
2) If you've been paying any attention at all you'd know that I'm not just "trying to get a lynch at this stage". I'm sold on Feysal-scum.
3) Benmage has stated he will governor Raivann. Do you want to risk a no lynch by scrambling for Raivann lynch with like 3 days to deadline and hope that when you call Benmage's "I will governor" that he doesn't do it? Is your scum read of Raivann that good? Why?

[LimMePls]

It's not a double standard because the two things are not the same. In the instance you are applying, the two things are identical. That is you called Zdenek scummy because he was voting and nominating town-reads that you have. But Benmage, who was voting and nominating IN THE EXACT IDENTICAL WAY you think is town. It reads like you were just looking for an excuse to call Zdenek scummy.

which is at least as bad as any mistake I made.

This even implies that you agree the two things aren't the same. It wouldn't be "at least as bad" if they were the same, it would be "just as bad". The difference is that what you've done and what Benmage has done are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So there is no double standard. Nice try though. Flail some more.

[LimMePls]

Zdenek,

Please comment specifically on the connections Feysal has to diddin and Xtoxm. What is your take on that, disregarding the claim for now.

[LimMePls]

It's like he's going "Nyah nyah, I'm not gonna be lynched today, I don't even have to try."

It's not like that, IT'S EXACTLY THAT. We're like less than 24 hours to go, and he's on Benmage's "do not lynch list". He's not getting lynched today.

The irony of you describing Raivann's play that way is delicious. FUCKING SAY/DO SOMETHING USEFUL SHADOW! AT THE VERY MINIMAL VOTE A WAGON THAT ACTUALLY HELPS US. CAMPING YOUR VOTE ON THOR(2) WAGON IS SO TERRIBLE I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

[LimMePls]

TOWN
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Kast
xvart
Setael
Zdenek
DTMaster
Nexus
Shadow1psc
Raivann
Thor665
DrippingGoofball
Danakillsu
Ghostlin
Twilight Sparkle
Bunnylover
Feysal
SCUM

[LimMePls]

@Feysal: Sorry you're taking it personally, but get over yourself. You played like scum. You had multiple interactions with the flipped starks, you kept making statements that hinted at inside information, and you only got involved in the game when you came under pressure. The fact that you want to act butt hurt because I wouldn't listen to your fail defense is not my problem. If you're town as you claim, then you need to accept responsibility for your part in the lynch. You are not some innocent bystander who just got screwed by circumstance. Ranting at me and taking it personally that I think you are scum and lead a lynch on you doesn't make you better than me. So get off your cross.

[LimMePls]

Actually, I just remembered that LMP didn't shoot diddin N1.

@LynchMePls:

Who'd you shoot?

If everyone wants an answer to this question I'll give it. As of right now, I think it's better for town if I do not.

[LimMePls]

TS hate is mitigated by both MOI-scum flip AND Feysal-town flip.

Vote: danakillsu

shot someone else who didn't die which should've been your first post today if true, or shot no one which *also* should've been your first post today if true

I'm not sure either of these statements are true. Why should I claim these things if it helps the scum to know the answers and doesn't help us?

[LimMePls]

Anyone else wondering if MOI-Thor interactions late D2 might have been some distancing?

[LimMePls]

Nevermind

LYNCHMEPLS – I IMPLORE YOU TO KILL HIM WITH FIRE TONIGHT!!!!

Unlikely to come from distancing scum partners.

[LimMePls]

Occam's Razor - LMP is simply the scum sending in the kills

That is the most fail application of Occam's Razor I've ever seen.

Whatever.

I submitted no kill because I was 1-shot. Obviously I wanted to hide this from the scum. They had to be afraid of my action if they don't know I only had one, so I could draw the NK or roleblocking. This is one of the things about my role that I was trying very hard to protect from blatant fishing yesterday (such as repeated requests for who I was going to kill). This is also why I kept saying that multiple town aligned killing roles are not at all that unlikely, if they were all limited/1-shot like mine.

Likely MOI JK'ed me last night, so a missing kill would mean nothing to them because they would be expecting it. But whatever, they lost their JK anyways, so unless it is two scum teams (which is starting to look doubtful), it's not as big a deal. I still think keeping it back would have been better.

Given that all 3 mafia flips are Stark, and that all 3 were power roles, and that MOI himself was starting to espouse a 1 scum team theory yesterday, I'm going to start viewing the game as 1 scum team + 1 SK(maybe Vig) who performed the diddin and MOI kills.

[LimMePls]

Bunny, calling me SK is stupid. Why would I have claimed the chesskid kill when I did if I was SK? Also, if I was really SK, and not 1-shot, I'd be dead as soon as someone tracks/watches me visit another target, so it would be an inevitable loss. Also, your N1 kill talk makes no sense. Are you saying that I didn't really kill CK, and that I'm just claiming the kill? Why would I do that, it would pretty much get me auto-killed by the real CK killer. We KNOW the Stark kill N1 is missing because I killed CK and obviously the Starks didn't kill diddin. So you aren't making sense.

@Benmage: If I name claim it will probably require me to out the rest of my role that I haven't revealed. If you really want this, then say so and I'll just go ahead and full claim.

[LimMePls]

@LMP: I don't know why you claimed the Chesskid kill, maybe to throw confusion at the town?

THINK! If I was willing to out myself as a potentially anti-town role (most people view those who claim kills with at least a decent amount of extra suspicion) then I can't be SK. If sowing confusion amongst the town was my goal, it would have to come with a drawback, which would be that I could die because of my claim. Therefore as SK it would be a TERRIBLE play because SK loses when he dies. So if "throw[ing] confusion at the town" was my goal, then I'm clearly not an SK.

MoI as the SK/Vig/other Scum team? He wasn't even pushing on the Feysal case and was pushing TS case, so unless TS is the vig I don't understand why someone would shot MoI and not you LMP who pushed so hard on the Feysal case.

Then you're not thinking very hard. There are plenty of reasons to not kill me, not the least of which is that I was likely to be targeted by a protective ability since I was a claimed town power role.

Bunny, you're really not making any sense. I understand if you have some reservations about my slot, I look at all claimed killers with the same scrutiny you do. But your conclusions don't seem logical to me.

[LimMePls]

3) Claiming a one-shot vig would mean a tracker/watcher would be less wanting to watch/track you until closer to end game. Reason why is because they are expecting to get a no result from you.

BUT IF I WAS SK THEN DYING NEAR END OF GAME IS JUST AS BAD AS DYING NOW! Do you not understand how SK works? I'm pretty sure the last thing an SK wants to do is jump out and paint a huge target on his forehead.

DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT My reads are TERRIBLE. And I'm still alive. There's a scum in my townie town town list.

Town:
DGB
Shadow
GreyICE/DTMaster - DTMaster is town because the mod told me so last night, how 'bout that, pussycat?
Benmage - iz town.
Chesskid3-TOWN - Oh, alright.
Magua
MagnaOfIllusion
Twilight Sparkle
hascow
LynchMePls
Nexus
LMP
danakillsu <---- *HINT* It's right here
Feysal

I've put a hint in there for you.

[LimMePls]

TS hate is mitigated by both MOI-scum flip AND Feysal-town flip.

Vote: danakillsu

shot someone else who didn't die which should've been your first post today if true, or shot no one which *also* should've been your first post today if true

I'm not sure either of these statements are true. Why should I claim these things if it helps the scum to know the answers and doesn't help us?

So you are beginning to agree with me that TS is town, and you find out that even though I had no scum motivation for stopping his lynch, that I was right about Feysal being town. And then you proceed to vote me. Sure is haters gonna hate in here.

On what planet does agreeing with someone about a read on a third player make them town? Also as Kast mentions, your attempt to say that opposing the Feysal kill had no scum motivation is fail. The way you are responding to my scrutiny only continues to ping the scumdar.

[LimMePls]

I agree with Kast on this one. Zdenek is going to have to provide more or get lynched. Working with 1 week before fractured communication, playing coy is scummy.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

[LimMePls]

If the claim is true, then you were night immune all of D2. However, instead of acting in a manner to draw NKs, you buddied all the active/town-leader players. Behavior doesn't really match with the claim.

Not to beat up on Zdenek too much, but it doesn't surprise me at all that he misplayed his power. Given that your role cop actually gels with his role claim, I'm willing to give him some leeway. BP is actually difficult for newer players to really understand how to play well. Most newer plays see the ability and they just think "neat, I won't get NK'd".

And even if he is the SK, we can revisit this later after he's continued murderizing the scum for us.

@Kast: If Zdenek is the SK, should we even be lynching him today?

Unvote

kast: It's not exactly easy to "act in a manner to draw NKs". I agree he should've softclaimed some ridiciloawesome PR D2 but not everyone thinks of that sort of thing.

This.

Isnt that all we're gonna do next week is be able to vote?

Yes. Which is a bad thing because it means a fractured town that can't communicate. So getting everything out on the table now is very important. So sitting on your vote today is INFINITELY WORSE than sitting on your vote other days.

Why exactly am I on this list? If you've given reasons, I missed them.

Your "why me" here seems very insincere to me. It's been widely discussed why some people think you're scummy, how could you be surprised?

Rolecop pulled "modified bulletproof". He could be lying about how it's modified.

Yes, it's true, he could be lying. Thanks for that. Any other obvious statements you'd like to make Captain Obvious?

That's all he gave as a reason for voting Feysal, the fact that he was getting more confident Feysal was scum.

That is at best a misrepresentation, at worst a blatant lie. Yes it was all he gave in that post, but he had voted Feysal earlier in the day and had given VERY EXPLICIT reasons why. So why are you distorting that?

Vote: danakillsu

Still my best scum read.

[LimMePls]

Is there seriously no one in this thread who is suspicious about the blinding speed with which zdenek achieved his BP status (if it works like he says)

Appeal to probability is a fail argument. Also, what Thor said.

@pops: Even if Kast is right and Zdenek is SK, why exactly do we want to remove him right now? Starks have much more to fear from Zdenek-SK than town does.

[LimMePls]

Is there seriously no one in this thread who is suspicious about the blinding speed with which zdenek achieved his BP status (if it works like he says)

This was your appeal to probability. Basically your argument is "look how unlikely this is to occur. Obviously it didn't". It's like creationists who argue that "it's impossible for all those amino acids to form the proper chain to create life". Just because it is incredibly unlikely doesn't make it impossible.

In other words, I find your argument that "well he met his condition quickly, isn't that convenient" unpersuasive.

[LimMePls]

9) Danakillsu: If he's scum, he's a goon.

Why is this a good reason to be in the "meh" column? How many Stark PRs do you think there are going to be?

[LimMePls]

1915 is win.

I agree that we need a system for orchestrating our lynch once we're at our tables. I like the idea of Benmage putting the L-1 down and then the table self-voting if they agree with the claim.

[LimMePls]

I am Tywin Lannister. I become night kill immune if Tyrion Lannister dies.

Here we go again....

(reading....how is this not an SK claim. Player gets better when a

fellow

town player is killed...idno)

What is the "Here we go again..." about?

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: Raivann

Lets hear it.

[LimMePls]

Sorry everyone, but I need V/LA for the next day, maybe 2. Pretty swamped. I'll post ASAP.

[LimMePls]

Unovte

[LimMePls]

vote: Raivann

[LimMePls]

Magua's 2162 is the most optimal plan I can think of.

I'm rather confused.

1. We're pretty sure we don't have a doc, because Kast died.
2. zdenek got roleblocked
3. A kill was missing last night.
4. Kast's death means that zdenek is confirmed modified bulletproof. He cannot be a vigilante because that's a role. He can be a godfather variant because factional nightkill is not a role.
5. Lynching zden and freeing up the roleblock is bad because.....?????????????????????????????????

This isn't SK hunting. This is saying that a lynch with a 20% chance of hitting scum and 80% chance of hitting a neutral is far better than a lynch with a 35% chance of hitting scum and 60% chance of hitting town.

I have to agree. Missing kill plus RB on Zdenek + obv no doc = Zdenek-scum.

I'm fine with massclaim.

[LimMePls]

I played in a game where an SK had a dayvig (Mad World Time Travel Mafia in my wiki), but I've never seen scum team with one. Andrius' "it's not all that uncommon, look here at this exmaple... ok that's not really an example, but there are lots so just accept that as known and move on" is ridiculous.

[LimMePls]

I guess my main problem here is, if you have Hasdgfas-scum who has already claimed to be a dayvig, why does he shoot Xtoxm instead of Raivann or Zoraster?

This is what doesn't make sense with the Hascow-scum conspiracy. You can't argue that the shot was taken for town cred when Raivann or Zoraster shots would have yielded the exact same town cred, or close enough, and without losing a team mate. This makes Hascow-Stark so incredibly unlikely that it's not worth considering at this stage of the game, since there are much more promising/likely scum leads. Especially when the shot killed a team power role. I just don't see scum willingly losing two of their PRs (presumably the 1-shot day vig + neighborizer) for the very little extra "town-cred" that the Xtoxm kill would bring in over other perfectly viable shots.

[LimMePls]

Not finished catching up, but I'm at page 91 and the massclaim.

Claim: Qyburn, 1-shot CPR Doc

[LimMePls]

I was pretty certain that the N1 doc save would be mafia.

Uhm, if you killed diddin, and I killed CK, and the doc save was mafia, why would the mafia have targeted one of their own. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Benmage
Bunnylover
DrippingGoofball
Andrius
popsofctown
Nexus
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Magua
Setael
Twilight Sparkle
Shadow1psc
Danakillsu
Zdenek
Thor665

I'm pretty sure if we lynch this list from the bottom up, we can't lose.

[LimMePls]

How does your ability being confirmed = being "confirmed town"? Your conspiracy theory is laughable, I've dealt with this over and over and over.

[LimMePls]

I was pretty certain that the N1 doc save would be mafia.

Uhm, if you killed diddin, and I killed CK, and the doc save was mafia, why would the mafia have targeted one of their own. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

What? BunnyLover claimed doctor, I thought, "Whoever she saved N1 is mafia!"

This is what doesn't make sense. The only missing kill N1 was mafia, so how did you arrive at this thought? It doesn't make sense.

[LimMePls]

Shadow, what would have happened had you not been alive when the wedding occurred?

[LimMePls]

Well, if you would choose to believe my flavor, ability, and alignment don't pretty much scream Lannister, then you've got bigger problems. You think they'd give wedding planning of a Lannister wedding to a Stark?

Given that the flavor is that Lady Olenna helped poison Joffery, I wouldn't use "my flavor" as a defense if I were you.

[LimMePls]

CPR docs protect their target if they are targeted for a night kill, but kill them if they aren't. This is why I was willing to risk CK as PR, since he might actually have drawn an NK, in which case he would have been more likely town.

The quote is "The citadel took my chain". My flavor is that I'm an Ex-Maester and Ex-Member of the Brave Companions who often crosses the line of what is acceptable. My ambition and my willingness to blur the line make me fit in with the Lannisters to a T. Afterall, I did save Jamie Lannister's life when he'd lost his hand.

[LimMePls]

I thought that dunce drunk of a Knight poisoned joff and helped sansa escape.

Whenever Littlefinger is involved, there are layers within layers. It is made pretty clear that Olenna was working with Littlefinger. She is the one that gave Sansa the hair net and she "straightened" it at the wedding. Later Sansa realizes one of the crystals was missing, and Petyr tells her that the crystals were actually poison. Thus Lady Olenna is the one who put the poison in the cup. Pretty sure it's all discussed end of ASOS or during Alyane's chapters in AFFC.

Margery Tyrell's mother poisons Joff.

Quote? Pretty sure it's her GRANDMOTHER, which is Olenna Tyrell.

[LimMePls]

You left yourself out, but this should be the order:
Benmage
DrippingGoofball
Andrius
Bunnylover
popsofctown
Nexus
Hasdgfas
Locke Lamora
Danakillsu
Shadow1psc
Magua
LMP
Twilight Sparkle
Zdenek
Thor665
Setael

I don't put myself on my lists. Fair enough.

Unvote
Vote: Setael

[LimMePls]

He is Magua afterall.

[LimMePls]

2) I don't believe that the scumteam has no goons; for that reason, Setael or Thor flipping a scum PR as opposed to goon would make me MORE suspicious of dana. (Otherwise, what's the point of giving the role cop VT/goon results?) That said, I have no reason to suspect dana beyond low activity and PoE. And his suggesting he sacrifice himself read as townish.

What about my observations towards Dana at the end of D2? He was acting pretty scummy. If you need me to go dig them back up, I will, but I'd like your take on it given this quote.

[LimMePls]

Bunnylover, LynchMePls:

What happens if your target is hit by more than one killer?

It explicitly says "one or more". So I would protect them as long as there is at least 1 kill attempt on them.

I have large doubts that an SK would claim a kill D2 unprovoked. I have further doubts that an SK would expand on their claim D4 in a way that moves to clear someone (Zdenek) under suspicion. Easy enough to have kept his claim as a one-shot vig. Reading LMP, I feel the same motivations with what I wanted to do -- having used his power, he wanted to make himself a target to the mafia and get shot.

DING DING DING. We have a winner. This is why I was irritated when you pushed me D3 to claim more of my role. I figured the best I could do once I was out of shots was draw an NK from scared scum.

2468 was not bad until...

Though I'm happy with a Magua lynch, I think the SK should be lynched today. Magua likely has at least one scum buddy still alive so as long as the SK is alive, there will likely be 2 kills every night until we lynch Zdenek.

Where it becomes obvious that now he just wants to fling mud everwhere and see where it sticks. The Zdenek vote is a clear "I don't really believe in my Magua stuff, I'm just saying it to explain my picking Magua yesterday. I know there are some who might vote Zdenek instead of me, so I'm voting there to save my ass".

Did you read my post shadow? Please explain how you can discount magua's scumminess so easily.

Awesome with his 2468 and his picked Magua to be his champion, but his vote today for Zdenek. Every play Setael makes is "let me live!"

Vote: Setael

[LimMePls]

So I had a look back at ACoK to check the setup. There were 7 VTs there, with 2 PRs and two goons per scumteam. The split there was 17-4-4-1. Here you are suggesting it's 5 VTs and 5 scum, all with PRs, and I'm assuming you think Zdenek is the 5th and final Stark with some kind of kill immunity, so I guess your assumption is 17-5-1-1. As you said, 26 players in ACoK, 24 players here. What makes you think that a 2 VT drop on town's side would indicate a drop to 0 goons for scum in a team of only 5 players?

Because the setup is obviously that the mafia (Stark) are really the town, and have the town-like PR roles.

But, here's the real question. Why do you care that I don't think there are any mafia goons? This is a repeated attribute of your play in this game: you pop up again and again to say some variant of "You can't trust X."

You say Zdenek could be the SK because Nexus could have roleblocked someone else.
You say Dana could be a mafia goon.
You manage to sound miffed that the Kettleblacks were being cleared.
You say drill into Nexus that Raivann's claim may be fake.

All of these things are true, but they're the majority of what you've said. It's like you're going out of your way to make sure that suspicion can be cast on anyone.

This, except for the "no goons" assumption.

Also, the Dana-votes-dead-BL stuff is null. That said, the rest of his play is pretty scumtastic, as I've repeated over, and over, and over ad nauseum. I think of the VTs, he is the most likely Stark.

@ Magua
If you flip town, we can be much surer that Locke is a good lynch candidate. If you flip scum, we've likely pretty much won the game.

Yup, I think Dana is stark and thinks Magua is SK, and wants him gone now. This "reasoning" for why we should lynch Magua is TERRIBLE. Since Dana isn't a dummy, it makes me pretty sure he has other reasons for wanting Magua lynched.

I asking because I'm wondering about a connection. Your rationale for clearing Dana is partly based on there not being any scum goons. This seems like a strange attitude to take, based on what we know about this setup and the previous setup. This partially concerns me because I think it's always dangerous to make an assumption that there are the lowest possible amount of scum - numbers are always more crucial than PRs, at the end of the day - and partially because I think that you're looking for an extra reason to call Dana town, which seems unnecessary. On the other side of the coin, there's something about Dana's 'let's lynch Magua' that seems very fake.

EXACTLY. I don't see why the Starks couldn't be "all power except 1 goon", in fact it makes the rolecop more interesting/skill-challenging (ie. "Vanilla result != town && PR result != scum"). And Dana-Stark makes all kinds of sense to me. Him turning up vanilla from Kast is nowhere NEAR enough to take him off the table.

If there is 1 more Stark it's between Dana and Zdenek.

Vote: Zdenek

[LimMePls]

@TS re 256: I am not sure I understand the question. Please reformat.

LMP is sort of correct. I was looking for a reaction from Magua, which I practically already told you guys, and which I definitely got. It wasn't a good one, to say the least. Magua, you certainly aren't trying very hard to show me you're not the wagon for today, you would rather make me look like an idiot (which I can do all by myself, thank you very much). MY VOTE STAYS.

So your reasons are so secret that even though you've gotten an awesome reaction from him, you're not going to explain what it was or in any way try to influence us to your point of view. You're simply going to say "I was trying to get a reaction, I got one, so I'm happy"?

I will summarize:
danakillsu: We should lynch Magua. We get information either way.
Magua: What information do you get when I flip town?
danakillsu: If you're scum we win, and if you're town then we can think about lynching LL.

Pretty much spot on. But don't forget this bit:

LMP: dana, you're not stupid, what the hell is going on here.
dana: You're right, I'm not stupid! I was just reaction fishing. And I got a reaction, and it tells me he's scum. So my vote stays. *nevermind I'm not going to even bother trying to show people what the hell I'm talking about, what the "reaction" was, why it was scummy, or anything*

Unvote
Vote: danakillsu

[LimMePls]

Thanks for the misrep and voting confirmed town, bro. And I'm the stupid one?

1) I EXPLICITLY called you "not dumb". Nowhere did I say you were stupid. Nice ad hom though.

2) Explain exactly where I misrep'ed you. Saying it doesn't make it so.

3) Confirmed town?! Where? Screenshots or it didn't happen.

[LimMePls]

So your reasons are so secret that even though you've gotten an awesome reaction from him, you're not going to explain what it was or in any way try to influence us to your point of view. You're simply going to say "I was trying to get a reaction, I got one, so I'm happy"?

Also, don't dodge this again pls.

[LimMePls]

That leaves Dana, LMP, Magua and TS as lynch choices. Magua is not stark. Maybe SK. Leaving Dana, LMP and TS. I'm not sure what you guys see in Dana at this point, but lets go with the general consensus is that we're down to two realistic candidates in LMP and TS. I'm pretty sure my stance becomes clear from here out, but we have to wonder why there was no stark kill n1, unless of course my theory holds up that LMP is stark.

Why are you making the "consensus" leap that dana isn't a "realistic candidate"? For that matter, why is it only two "realistic candidates 'LMP and TS'"? The vote count and pretty much everything everyone has been saying today begs to differ with you.

[LimMePls]

@Shadow:

1) How is 'a few people who seem to be fairly convinced Dana is town' a consensus?
2) Why is LL, who has the most votes currently, NOT in your "consensus".
3) Why am I or TS, both with 0 votes, in your "consensus".
4) Since you seem to flagrantly abuse the meaning of the word, please define "consensus" for us.

[LimMePls]

1) Majority rules. I assume you're not going to vote for yourself, that means if 4 other people aren't convinced you're a good lynch, the consensus is you
2) LL is not scum. SK, maybe, but we're not SK hunting right now are we? If we are, we put magua back on the table though too.
3) Process of elimination.
4) See: 4th grade. If you want to argue over semantics, you're putting up less of a fight then I woulda thought. will not be lynched.

1) Show me the 4 people who are unwilling to lynch dana. That I'm aware of I've not seen a single person say they are "unwilling" to do so, I've only seen people declare "townish" reads, and most of them grudgingly (or with what I think is bad logic about vanilla=non-stark).
2) Fair enough, I didn't see that this was "non-SK scum" specific. More on this in a sec.
3) So consensus doesn't mean what you think it means then.
4) Nice dodge.

What troubles me about your "consensus" talk is it all looks to me like your personal opinions wrapped in "well, this is the consensus view, so clearly it's the only place for discussion". The fact is that in no way that I can see has the group been in a consensus with the notions you are espousing.

Also, you seem to imply that we shouldn't be SK hunting, since you've removed your SK suspects from the "consensus". Why should we not eliminate the SK today if possible?

[LimMePls]

^^True enough. No use crying over spilled milk though. The point still stands that I don't know why we wouldn't hunt the SK like any other scum at this point.

[LimMePls]

3) I believe this has already been answered. First, there is the investigation. I have been confirmed to be goon/VT. My claim lines up with VT. It is not automatic that I would have a VT fakeclaim if I were a goon, so this decreases the chance of me being scum. Secondly, there is the Setael lynch. Some are saying I didn't have great reasons for lynching him. I don't agree, but even if one thinks this is true, that would be all the more reason to consider me town. Why would I bus a scumpal constantly with a half-baked case? There's no motive for scum there.

NONE OF THESE THINGS MAKE YOU CONFIRMED TOWN LIKE YOU CLAIM! THESE THINGS MAY BE FACTORS TO CONSIDER IN YOUR FAVOR, BUT IMO ALL OF THEM ARE JUST AS EASILY EXPLAINED WITH YOU AS SCUM AS YOU AS TOWN. SO CALLING YOURSELF "CONFIRMED TOWN" IS A BLATANT LIE!

Lets take them one at a time:

First, there is the investigation. I have been confirmed to be goon/VT. My claim lines up with VT. It is not automatic that I would have a VT fakeclaim if I were a goon, so this decreases the chance of me being scum.

This makes 0 sense. If you are a goon, then of COURSE you'd claim VT. What would your supposed fakeclaim have ANYTHING to do with it?

Secondly, there is the Setael lynch. Some are saying I didn't have great reasons for lynching him. I don't agree, but even if one thinks this is true, that would be all the more reason to consider me town. Why would I bus a scumpal constantly with a half-baked case? There's no motive for scum there.

EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS

. If you felt like your case was half-baked (as you claim here) then there is OF COURSE scum motivation for doing it. IT'S CALLED SAFE DISTANCING! You get to fling mud at your buddy, without worrying that you're actually gonna lead to a lynch, since the case is "half-baked". Also, YOU ARE CLAIMING RIGHT HERE THAT YOU WERE ATTACKING HIM WITH A HALF-BAKED CASE! If you are town, why did you do that? If your case was half-baked, why did you push it so religiously?

So, not only do your supposed reasons why you are "confirmed town" fail to even be reasons why you MIGHT be town, but you also are trying to pass them off as you being CONFIRMED! This is so bad it's sick.

OH and DANA is off my lynch Table because there have been 0 goons and he was investigated as a VT.

The GF was in my book inv-immune. All goons auto invimmune too?? FUK NO. DANA IS MORE CONFIRMED TOWN THAN I AM.

This is a valid observation, but is NOT enough to contradict dana's continued scum play since EARLY in this game, and sure as SHIT doesn't make him "confirmed town". Ascetic is "role-cop immune +" while goon is just "rolecop immune", so there is a difference. His play has been and continues to be pathetic. If you guys are unwilling to lynch him now, then fine, I'll move on, but this shit must NOT be forgotten. This play is ATROCIOUS.

[LimMePls]

If I was given a fakeclaim that WASN'T VT, then it wouldn't make much sense AS A VT. Therefore, the fact that my claim makes sense as a VT should tell you that my fakeclaim would have had to be VT from the start to make me scum. This makes me less likely scum, though admittedly not a ton less likely.

This is flatly false. Any claimed name could be VT. You are stretching and you are refusing to acknowledge that even if your point were true (which it isn't), IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU CONFIRMED TOWN.

This second is more ridiculous than any rage I've ever seen Fate go on, and that is saying A LOT. Lets start with the end, because it is more easily refuted. TRY LOOKING AT THE CONTEXT. I DID NOT CLAIM TO HAVE A HALF-BAKED CASE ON SETAEL ANYWHERE. I said "I don't agree (that my reasons weren't great), but even IF one thinks this is true....Why would I bus a scumpal with a half-baked case". This is waaaaay too obviously misrep to even be a mistake on your part. You're trying way too hard to make me look scummy, whether because you're town who wants me to be scum or because you're scum who wants people to think I'm scum. And your reasons that doing that would have scum motivation make no sense. Where do you get the picture that I never had to worry that I would actually lead a lynch? LEADING A LYNCH IS PRECISELY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO, AND IN FACT DID. As you say, I pushed the lynch almost "religously". Scum simply don't tunnel on their buddies with cases that make no sense. So to reiterate, if you think my case on Setael was no good, that SHOULD make you think I'm town who got lucky rather than scum who pulled off the hardest, least effective bus in MS history.

Pretty much this entire paragraph is simply false. OF COURSE SCUM TUNNEL ON OTHER SCUM, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DON'T THINK IT'LL LEAD TO A LYNCH. In fact, I'd find tunneling scum with "half-baked" cases MORE likely that tunneling town with half-baked cases, as the tunneling town would probably give it up when others point out that the case is half-baked, while scum would continue riding it for the distancing. As LL points out, once you were committed to it, you couldn't really jump off when the wagon finally did gain real steam, you were committed to riding it out and hoping it bought you enough town cred.

Once again, you still dodge the fact that these things MAY (if you squint real hard and ignore the obvious scum motivations) lead people to think you are town, BUT THEY DON'T MAKE YOU CONFIRMED TOWN. Why did you call yourself confirmed town and then when challenged on it provide these two reasons as your proof to make that assertion? Do you honestly believe those two points make you "confirmed town"? Basically I've simply shown that your assertion that you are "confirmed town" is LUDICROUS.

[LimMePls]

If I was given a fakeclaim that WASN'T VT, then it wouldn't make much sense AS A VT. Therefore, the fact that my claim makes sense as a VT should tell you that my fakeclaim would have had to be VT from the start to make me scum.

This makes me less likely scum,

though admittedly not a ton less likely

.

This is flatly false. Any claimed name could be VT.

You are stretching and you are refusing to acknowledge that even if your point were true

(which it isn't),

IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU CONFIRMED TOWN

.hat

But pops, this is ignoring the full chain of questioning. My original question was "Why are you calling yourself confirmed town". His response had 2 arguments, BOTH OF WHICH I SHOWED DO NOT MAKE HIM CONFIRMED TOWN. But nowhere did he admit that those pieces of evidence do NOT make him CONFIRMED town.

This argument is stupid, and I'm tired of it. The simple fact is dana was blatantly exaggerating by calling himself "confirmed", which is hugely anti-town at best. When people use the word "confirmed", it better damn well be fucking confirmed. I don't keep a spread sheet of all the claims, so when he called himself "confirmed" I spent about a half hour or so looking back in the record trying to figure out what the fuck he was talking about, when I couldn't figure out why he was confirmed I asked him to explain it, and it turned out to be BS.

I do not like the LL lynch. Zoraster's flip confirms LL's name, and Clegane being a SK against Lannister town doesn't seem right.

[LimMePls]

10 alive. Hope it's 8:1:1, because if it's not, then Benmage has simply fucked us all over and lost. But I think it's 8:1:1, so maybe it's ok.

Lynch me, 7:1:1. Two nightkills, worst case, 5:1:1. One nightkill isn't really any better for us, because it doesn't give us an extra mislynch.

Lynch Zdenek, who is going to be scum. 5:1. One night-kill. 4:1.

This gives you one mislynch.

Lynch Twilight Sparkle, because they fit into either category.

If that's a mislynch, it's now 2:1. Unless I miss my guess, final day in that case would be LynchMePls, danakillsu, and Locke Lamora. Think dana is clear. LL can't be Stark. LMP can't be SK. So that should make it easy.

The only difference to this plan would be switching me and Twilight, which Benmage isn't going to do, and, since even best case TS turns out to be SK, one nightkill tonight doesn't give us an extra mislynch *anyways*, is simply not worth it for me to argue about.

I like this plan, but I'm not actually sure I agree that LL is better lynch over dana in that LYLO.

[LimMePls]

On phone at airport will post tomorrow.

[LimMePls]

Between Magua and TS, if either of them are not Lannister, I'll be surprised.

So Magua claims the diddin kill and no one counters, but you think he's Lannister? Explain please.

Zdenek would have been lynched on D2 had everyone not been all "You guys are just scum framing poor, innocent, defenceless Zdenek. Let's lynch Feysal instead, because he mentioned Xtoxm's name in passing!"

I hate hate HATE that you are trying to tar the Feysal wagon in hindsight. That wagon was super solid, the observations behind it were incredibly good, and I'll stand by that wagon till hell freezes over. Feysal had all the signs of Stark scum. This quote makes me think TS-Stark. Trying to beat us up over the mislynch we made earlier that YOU stayed off of screams scummy to me.

LMP. You said you liked Magua's plan. DANA isn't being lynched today 100%. Please place your vote somewhere useful.

I'm working on it. Shit man, I haven't been able to post since the last request. Give a man a break.

Unvote
Vote: TS

L-1.

Magua has been holding a giant flashing neon sign all game saying "Town". LL doesn't make sense as scum from flavor perspective. Zdenek can't be lynched today, and dana will have to wait to lylo. Pretty much PoE on TS.

[LimMePls]

Firstly, do you think Zdenek is Stark or SK?

SK.

Secondly, I was on the mislynch. We switched to Feysal at deadline.

Thirdly, why do you like Magua's plan when it guarantees that dana is left for LYLO, and Super!Town Magua is lynched first?

Last minute switches at deadline to avoid No Lynch hardly count. But fair enough.

Because Magua is on much more people's scum list than dana is (God only knows why). It's not my ideal plan, but it gets the job done.

Oh, LMP! I have to go, but what do you think of my plan?

Should we promise to give the Stark the victory unless the SK kills someone in the suspect pool tonight?

Seems perfectly logical to me. SK needs us for victory if we reach KM. For that matter, so would Starks. So we should make them work for it.

To be honest, it was a pretty mediocre-to-crappy case on a player who was somewhat wishy-washy and cautious, but not blatantly scummy, and that only went through because you tunneled like a blind idiot on him and called everyone who disagreed with you scum, thus pressuring people into going with the crowd and feeling like there was something wrong with them if they had doubts. "All the signs of being Stark" were pretty much that Feysal coincidentally mentioned Starks in passing.

This isn't how I'd characterize the case AT ALL. I most certainly did NOT call everyone who disagreed with me scum. I did pressure people into going along with me, BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS LEADING A WAGON ON SCUM. What was I supposed to do?

I'm genuinely on the fence with LMP right now--I know he has a reputation for being scary scum, but he looked so town on D2. It all depends on how many Starks there are. But if you're town, I will say that you have played poorly.

I get this a lot (as you should all to well know). I'm not as good a town player as I am scum. Sorry if I didn't make the choices you would have, but I've been doing all of my actions in what I thought were the town's best interests.

I am going to assume for a moment that you are town (because if you are scum, then you've done your job very well). When you tunnel someone like that and it results in a mislynch, don't blame it on the victim. Take a step back and reevaluate. If you want to have a laugh, check my (Mina's) first game on this site, in which I hound a poor townie until his lynch. I've tunneled and been wrong, too. It's much scarier to always doubt yourself and second-guess everything, but it's a much healthier playstyle.

Look, if it left a "bad taste in your mouth", then so be it. You wanna call it arrogant, fine. But what I was attacking was Feysal's pretty brutal attack on me. The simple fact is that I believed him to be scum, and I pushed hard for his lynch. I do not believe what I did was wrong. In hindsight, clearly he wasn't scum and I made a mistake. I never said I don't own up to my mistakes, that wasn't my intention in responding to Feysal at the end of D2. But I'm not gonna sit there and be lectured by Feysal because he's sore he got mislynched. If I were just being whimsical and pushing his case for laughs, then yes I'd feel his condescension would be well earned, but I don't think anyone can question my sincerity. I unequivocally believed based upon the information we had at the time that Feysal was scum.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend. He's obviously not Stark. He's either Lannister, or he's the SK. The way he held on to the information regarding the Diddin kill, and the way he claimed it scream town more than SK hiding behind his kill. Whereas the way you claimed early and unprovoked to me seems more like nervous SK looking to hide behind a kill. It works either way really, but Magua has played a town game.

My question was mis-stated. I meant "how could you call him Stark"? Dunno why I typed Lannister. I agree 100% that he's Lannister or SK. My claim was NOT unprovoked. I was asking questions surrouding Feysal's talk about the Chesskid kill, and people kept pushing me for why I was asking my questions (I don't remember the question anymore, but whatever). Anyways, the point is, only after like the 5th person was all "why are you asking these questions" did I reveal it. So quit calling it unprovoked. You can say you don't like how I claimed, fine. Call me scum for it, fine. But saying it was unprovoked is disingenuous.

[LimMePls]

Exactly what I said - Nervousness, pre-emptive defense. If people were asking questions, maybe fear of a watcher or tracker. There's plenty of reasons to do it.

Ya, because I have a track record of getting nervous when I'm scum. This is so nonsensical.

[LimMePls]

And I'm seriously starting to wonder if Zdenek has two kills a night or something. Maybe I should reread dana from the POV of him being scum.

PLEASE DO!

[LimMePls]

Come to think of it, this has Magua-sk making a little more sense, because it explains why he'd come out with that weird defense of LMP.

What was "weird" about the defense? Seemed like perfectly valid logic.

I'm fine with going to PoE if I have to. I'm also fine if you guys feel my flip says something about the other claims. I'm happy with my play this game (yes, even the Feysal lynch). If I were still alive going forward, I'd lynch the following list, bottom up:

popsofctown
Benmage
Hasdgfas
Magua
Locke Lamora
Danakillsu*
Twilight Sparkle*
Zdenek

*could be swapped.

Hammer away. God speed guys.

[LimMePls]

Hold the phone...and I am literally on my phone.
don't lynch TS.... the night kast died. Only kast died.

Why does an inv immune SK fear a cop?

TS can't be sk.

Plus the likely hood of zdenek being RB and scum having him submit the kill is impossible at this point
...right?

I have no idea what you're getting at here.

[LimMePls]

TS kill makes no sense to me. TS had been a major wagon D2. Why would scum shoot there when they had bigger fish to fry?

Benmage is grasping. And I hate this "confirmed" shit.

I think the only practical wagons today are myself, TS and Magua (who I don't think is SK, but seems more plausible SK than LL).

[LimMePls]

I was going to respond to Benmage, but Magua already said everything I would have said.

TS lynch is MUCH better than Magua lynch. I want no part of Magua lynch, and will only do so to stop a no lynch. By the end of the day I'll hammer if no one has.

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: Magua

[LimMePls]

hito, who is your SK now that LL is dead? By your own analysis, the only SKs were you and LL, and LL is gone.

TS-scum is certain.

All of the remaining scum are in: {TS, Zdenek, dana}. Either 2 of those 3 if the Starks only have 1 left, or all three if they don't. As for SK, that's clearly not dana, as I would expect SK to not show up vanilla to rolecop. So it's TS or Zdenek as SK. Since Zdenek's play the last couple of days has practically claimed scum, I see no reason to not lynch him first.

I would vote Zdenek here, but there is no reason to rush the day. At the very least, lets let everyone check in.

[LimMePls]

And TS-Stark or TS-SK decided to derail surefire zdenek wagon and declare themselves open season in town kingmaker because...?

To try and look town? Because it's highly unlikely to get you actually lynched in KM, while it might by you "look how awesome I am I must be town" points? Is this a serious question? You know you're coming into clear POE zone, and you want to try and cut that off as much as possible? For every town-TS motivation for those actions there is a scum-TS motivation for them.

[LimMePls]

"It's highly unlikely to get you actually lynched in Kingmaker" is moronic. I've just erected a machine that will confirm me as town due to a clever divergance in optimal play, and you're saying it doesn't count because the town might not follow through? The solution to this problem is pretty straightforward: 1.) stop being dumb and 2.) follow fucking through. Saying that my confirmation doesn't count because "we might let you win as a potential SK or Stark" is infuriating. NO. I am creating a situation where I auto-lose as Stark or SK, so I can walk in to it and be confirmed town.

Ya, I should just sit back and trust everyone to blindly follow through. That's a purely optimal plan, thanks for putting my fears to rest...

[LimMePls]

I could watch this all day.

[LimMePls]

There's only one Zdenek vote so far, and as I've been saying, he's one of the very few that could still be scum.

vote: Zdenek

Someone is on autopilot.

[LimMePls]

LOL!

[LimMePls]

There's only one Zdenek vote so far, and as I've been saying, he's one of the very few that could still be scum.

vote: Zdenek

Someone is on autopilot.

Yessir. You got a reason not to be? Nothing has changed. I see no way for town to lose at this point.

Really? What if TS is right and there are 2 starks and Zdenek is one of them. At night the SK and last Stark don't cross kill, and we lose in a 2-1-1 KM. Which has all already been explained by TS. Do you just not get it, or do you just not care? Why?

@Zdenek: Are you just trolling now?

[LimMePls]

This one is better:

[LimMePls]

His ass, amirite?

[LimMePls]

@TS: I'm surprised you find the 95% portion more troubling than:

And if it is, it doesn't matter.

If we're in the situation where lynching Zdenek makes us lose, it doesn't matter. o.O

[LimMePls]

Earth to LMP. If lynching Zdenek makes us lose EVEN IF HE'S A STARK, it doesn't matter what we do.

YES IT DOES! If lynching Zdenek means we lose if he's a Stark, then we should consider... I dunno, here's a novel idea, NOT DOING THAT. I dunno about everyone else, but I don't want to lose. Blindly following a script and just throwing our hands up "oh well, it's the best we could do" isn't a good strategy.

[LimMePls]

I think dana is scum aligned with Zdenek. I spent last night looking over Zdenek's play, and any connections with living players. Here is every time Zdenek mentions Dana:

I agree with MoI that Twilight Sparkle's use of soft accusations against him is scummy.
MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

Trying to sniff out people's opinions of dana.

Dana:

I see very little scum hunting in Danakillsu's posts. Early in the day, he was guilty of posting pro-town fluff:

raise: DGB For pointing out how stupid it is to self-raise. We all get that you want to tell us you're town and you trust yourself. It doesn't even need to be stated. Now start trying to play the actual game.

Wrong. You are not keeping anything from happening by raising yourself. If we wanted to raise somebody else, we could do so whether you were raising yourself, someone else, or no one. Your job in this game is to convince other people that certain players are town or scum, and a raise of yourself because "you trust yourself and nobody else" doesn't help anyone. Let me put it this way: Do you lynch vote exclusively to see the person you vote for lynched?

I also don't think that he was being honest about his awareness of the statistics of self-raising from the last game. I also feel that he wasted a lot of time talking about self-raising and hascow's post restrictions rather than scum hunting. Additionally, there his jumping at the chance to vote for xvart based on GreyICE's incorrect reading of his posts.

Calls dana scum, but in a pretty weak way. This is what I'd call "firing blanks". Never places a vote on dana...

Or it's a townie with a static read from one day to the next. I don't see how a Mikujin town flip could cast doubt on Dana, and view this as a poor attack on Dana.

...while finding the time to defend dana.

Point Five: Inconsistency regarding Danakillsu

There is no inconsistency; I was attacking your logic.

Here Zdenek defends himself from the accusation that he has been inconsistant in regards to danakillsu.

Okaaaaay...so, your stance on danakillsu is: he’s not scumhunting, but if the person he tunneled on day one (when he “wasn’t scumhunting") flips town, you can’t see how that would reflect negatively on dana? Have I got that straight?

I don't think that Dana being wrong about Mikujin would reflect particularly negatively on him. There were reasons to vote Mikujin and Dana wasn't the only vote on him that day.

More defending of dana, even after his supposed "ooh, dana is scummy" post from above.

The main thing I noticed was his extensive case on Bunnylover, his secondary scumread, and his lack of a case on Feysal.

At least now it is completely clear that you haven't been paying attention to the thread at all.

More blanks from Zdenek.

Actually Dana is very likely town due to Kasts results.

You're assuming no vanilla scum?

So, even though Zdenek thinks dana is scum, but has had to fight with others over his inconsistant positions, he's willing to buy "dana is town from Kast results" out of hand? This just keeps getting more and more obvious.

I'm not saying that the assumption the Starks have a goon is superior to the one that they don't, but just that I don't think that it is a good assumption to use to clear someone. However, I've decided that Dana is cleared, see below.

**SNIP**

Finally because of Nexus' presumably role-blocking me and their being two kills the night he died, I can't be the SK. I am guessing that the night before there was overkill on Kast, which makes sense. Although, now as I think about it, since Setael was presumably investigation immune, this line of reasoning clears Dana.

Hey look, Benmage brought up the idea that dana is cleared, and suddenly Zdenek is a huge proponent of the idea.

Dana is confirmed town.

LOL.

Now every time dana mentions Zdenek:

@ Zdenek
I like how you had to quote my first post to "prove" that I've been posting fluff.

???

Well, out of the lynches that are available, I guess my preferred one is Zdenek. His vote and nomination both look fairly scummy to me.

This screams easy bussing to me. No thought put in it whatsoever, just "oh my buddies getting a wagon, let me hop on".

So because Zdenek is voting and nominating YOUR town reads, he must be scum? And its so scummy that it negates the BLATANT connections that Feysal has to TWO SCUM FLIPS?

dana is scum.

ZOMG! I THINK DANA IS WRONG SO HE MUST BE SCUM, RIGHT?
Cut it out, man, you're better than that.

LynchMePls wrote:@dana: Benmage is voting and nominating the exact same way that Zdenek is. What is your read of Benmage?

My read of Benmage is town, because he has given some explanation at least for voting the players he's voting. Zdenek has not contributed as much, and in fact has kind of sheeped Benmage (who I think is wrong). Scum are often willing to vote town players when other town players do the work of making them look scummy. I can give you more on Zdenek, if you really think it's necessary, but not today.

I love the double standard that I caught dana in here, and I love that it was once again, in regards to an interaction involving Zdenek-dana. So now we've seen in thread a double-standard existing between Zdenek and dana and on between dana and Zdenek. I also love that originally his vote on Zdenek was because Zdenek was "voting and nominating his town reads", but now it's "oh, he's sheeping Benmage". Nice story change.

This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.

I don't think he is scum for disagreeing with me. I think he is scum for voting town. There's a difference. Obviously, this game is based on opinion. So my townreads are not town to anyone else, necessarily. But scum is more likely to vote for town, and he's voting for town. You think I'm scum because I'm not voting for the person in this game you think is scummiEST. That's not a scumtell. If you want to call it a double standard, you can go right ahead. The fact of the matter is, it WOULD be scummy for either of them, but Benmage is already town. Zdenek is not already town, so he's scum.

I love this. Basically here dana just flails because he can't admit his real motivation for voting Zdenek, which was distancing from his scum partner. So when his first weak reasons for voting Zdenek are exposed, he just tries to contrive other (equally weak) reasons. But he sticks to that vote come hell or high water.

I wish people would go for Magua, which will get us some info, rather than the easy lynch target Zdenek. Seriously, he always looks scummy.

Wait, what!?!? L-O-FUCKING-L. That is awesome.

Oddly enough, I mostly agree with Magua's analysis, and believe that it means we should actually lynch him. I think our Stark candidates are Zdenek, LMP, and Magua, and nobody's voting Zdenek or LMP. To me, it seems your choice is clear.

Interesting analsys for someone who is convinced that Zdenek is scum. This is seriously laughable.

What's with all these stupid "plans"? We don't really know what we want to do tomorrow until we see today's flip. So lets lynch someone who has a good chance of being Stark (Zdenek, LMP, or Magua) and get on with it. Since this is the one actually picking up steam,

unvote vote: LMP

I love that again Zdenek is in his "lynch from this" list, and again he votes elsewhere. All that day 2 distancing must have made dana feels safe in dropping Zdenek. This is so sick.

There's only one Zdenek vote so far, and as I've been saying, he's one of the very few that could still be scum.

vote: Zdenek

Oh, NOW he's ready to start lynching Zdenek again. That's quite a fascinating development...

Earth to LMP. If lynching Zdenek makes us lose EVEN IF HE'S A STARK, it doesn't matter what we do. Without crosskills, we've already lost. As I said, I'm quite sure that's not the case. 95% is completely random. It's just there to make a point. Let's get back to the game instead of making jokes about and discussing things that don't affect our play.

Someone was eager to be on that Zdenek lynch.

And now that day has started, we get this awesome posting:

So do you think the "Brotherhood without Banners aligned" is just a red herring? The last guy who was self aligned said "self aligned". I think we might have another "Brotherhood without Banners aligned" player out there.

AKA: "Hey guys, I wanna test the water and see if my buddies flip has alerted you guys, or if you'll just discount the possibility of an actual second scum team. I'm not going to bother to actually offer an opinion on this, so that I can agree with whichever opinion seems to be the most prevelant".

Thanks for claiming Zdenek buddy in thread dana. Dana has played scum ALL GAME. The only thing that's kept him out of the noose was the idea that the Starks wouldn't have two investigation immune players. Well, that was never really good enough for me, doubly so now that we have reason to suspect a second scum group. dana needs rope.

Vote: danakillsu

[LimMePls]

LOOK AT HIS FLIP! Are you kidding me? He flipped with an alignment that isn't "self-aligned", AND WE'VE SEEN SOMEONE FLIP SELF-ALIGNED! I'm actually pretty astonished that you think he doesn't have a partner. Also look at the name of the alignment. "BROTHERHOOD WITHOUT BANNERS". How many 1 member brotherhoods have you seen?

Both flavor and mechanics AND MOST IMPORTANTLY play all point to him having a partner. How on earth is that a "weak" position?

[LimMePls]

If, after that point, you believe LMP, you are certainly free to lynch me in Lylo.

Why would you EVER say this as town?

[LimMePls]

So he thinks you should all lynch me now, no questions asked, and then if you regret it tomorrow, you can lynch him in LYLO. Which if he is town means we lose. And you think there is no problem with this?

[LimMePls]

With the amount of powerroles we've had? Yes. we had 3 confirmed "mason-like" players, a role cop, a doctor, a one-shot dayvig, a one-shot night vig, a one-shot cpr doc, Jamie-message-people-role-thingy, a roleblocker... help me out here, I'm probably missing some. Not to mention that with the exception of the wedding (which we worked around anyways) there was another set of in-game events that pretty much all favored town.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone flipping with a named group in a different color from the "Self-Aligned" and town flips shouldn't be considered as a scum team? It seems pretty fucking blatant to me.

[LimMePls]

From A Clash of Kings:

10) Super Smash Bros. Fan - Self Aligned - Bulletproof Serial Killer - Dual Lynched Day 4

[LimMePls]

But 4 and 2? So not only are both scumgroups tiny relative to supertown (With crosskills being more of a bugger), but one scumgroup is just randomly half the size of the other? for serious?

1) How is that any worse than an SK who is solo? Is [19-4-1-1] better? Or are you saying there are 2 Starks left? Because if so, you have a lot of explaining to do, because your position keeps conveniently changing about the Starks. First its LL-SK me and Zdenek Stark, then its Zdenek-SK LMP and ??? Stark? If lynching dana doesn't end the game, then you're clearly the last of (insert whichever group is left, most likely Stark).
2) I guess 5-2 can't be ruled out?

I just don't believe that flip means "Serial Killer". Especially when looking at the SK flip from ACoK. The serial killer flip there was explicit in both "self-aligned" AND "serial killer". This flip lacked BOTH.

[LimMePls]

From A Clash of Kings:

10) Super Smash Bros. Fan -

Self Aligned

-

Bulletproof Serial Killer

- Dual Lynched Day 4

From A Storm of Swords:

Zdenek - Beric Dondarrion -

Brotherhood w/o Banners Aligned

Modified Nk Imm.

was lynched Day 7

For comparisons sake. I've added the colors, to highlight how these flips are radically different.

[LimMePls]

Look, if you guys honestly think its 18-5-1-1 then I'm going to be POE'd one way or the other (today or tomorrow). In that case, lynch away and good luck tomorrow.

But that flip makes NO SENSE as an SK flip. None. 0. Zip. Which means we're in LYLO now. Which means I do NOT want to be lynched.

And what does it mean if I am scum?
Obviously that I....LOSE!

This is so obviously self-serving BS, and you know it. I can't believe people are letting you get away with posting this crap. You've been doing it all game and no one will call you on it.

[LimMePls]

We have four - four! A ha ha ha - Starks dead. It's probably 18:5:1:1. The reason we thought Zdenek was probable Stark and not SK was that there were so few possible Starks aside from him. If there are two Starks left and neither was Zden...jesus fuck.

I mispoke. I meant 5/6. Obviously the Starks aren't gone yet.

This is so fail. Those of you that are scum are doing a great job. Those of you that are town are incredibly not.

[LimMePls]

Here's the point I'm trying to make - If you believe there's both a stark and another BWB aligned player (Zdenek partner), they absolutely HAVE to be Dana and TS (from your PoV). You sound more like you're flailing than going "Well, I know I'm town, Cow is town, Shadow is obvtown, process of eliminations means DUH THEY'RE SCUM".

The flip dictates that Zdenek had a partner. I spent the night looking over the available candidates. Yes, POE would suggest that they are both scum, but I'm making an argument why Zdenek had a partner (since apparently I'm the crazy one here), and why it is danakillsu. TS lynch is fine too. You sound like a contrarian to me. You don't really care if my argument has merit or not, you just want to snipe at it. That isn't really helping.

[LimMePls]

Here's the bigger picture, LMP - Dana is vanilla. There was one kill last night. It's possible there was cross kill, or its possible that the 'SK' had a partner, that was Zdenek. We should not be lynching dana, we should be trying to find the killing power first. Ya know what I sayin?

I don't understand this perspective at all. 1) Cross kill on Benmage is more than plausible. They haven't been crosskilling, but that was because they had a huge pool of confirmed to choose from. Now that we've dwindled down, a crosskill is likely. 2) A vanilla is a point in FAVOR of him being scum. Afterall the scum team would presumably need some help against all the PRs, and having one member immune to the investigation is appropriate.

I think where we have a fundamental disconnect is that I see Zdenek's flip as absolute PROOF that Zdenek has a partner out there somewhere, and you don't.

If you want to shelve that Zdenek had a partner and move on, then lets lynch TS. TS is the last Stark, so no harm there, and when the game doesn't end, we'll kill dana the next day.

What I want everyone to be perfectly clear on is: I THINK TODAY IS LYLO! THEREFORE I'M NO LONGER OK WITH BEING POE LYNCHED. I THINK DANA IS ZDENEK-BUDDY-SCUM. THEREFORE I WANT HIM LYNCHED.

[LimMePls]

today isn't lylo or even mylo, but if it's 1/1/3, that makes a mislynch put the last town into 'kingmaker'.

Going into kingmaker = town lost. Which CLEARLY makes this lylo.

[LimMePls]

Why would Zdenek's partner be non-killing? I don't understand this? Where are you guys getting that from?

@TS: Fair enough. And your drivel just there is completely meaningless to me because I know you're scum. Also, changing the name from innocent to lannister is clearly a flavor choice (ie Lannisters can hardly be called "Innocent"). IMO it has 0 bearing on this situation, and is simply a red herring.

[LimMePls]

ITS CALLED A FUCKING CROSSKILL! ARE YOU BEING DENSE JUST TO BE AN ASSHOLE OR ARE YOU REALLY THAT THICK!?

[LimMePls]

@Shadow and Cow: I've got no other people to appeal to. All I can do is tell you that lynching me is a mistake. Before either of you hammers me (since dana and TS are going to vote me for survival) please tell me if there is anything I can do to keep you from making the mistake.

[LimMePls]

@Shadow and Cow: I've got no other people to appeal to. All I can do is tell you that lynching me is a mistake.

*spreads arms wide*

I have no idea how to interpret this.

@Shadow and Cow: I've got no other people to appeal to. All I can do is tell you that lynching me is a mistake.

*spreads arms wide*

Whatever. I've done my due diligence, so don't hang this loss on me.

[LimMePls]

GG guys. Was a lot of fun. I was sad to not receive a town PM for this game. Glad my partner and I took it as long as we did.

@Zdenek: Sorry my NK choice cost us a shot at this one. You were a great partner.

@Starks: Good game.

@Mods: Once again you guys rock the house. Although I could do with less Fresh Prince of Bel Air in my GRRM theme games.

[LimMePls]

I TOLD YOU ALL THAT HASDGFAS WAS FAKING HIS RESTRICTION AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN LYNCHED DAY 1.

But practical I failed as Doctor this game. I wasn't able to keep up with the game, and therefore missed Kast claimed which could have gotten Zdenek lynched earlier. Damn.

HE DAY KILLED SCUM! WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE KILL HIM!?!?

[LimMePls]

You don't like sparkly vampires with the chiseled marbled skin of a greek god? Y NOT!?!?