A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Zdenek

Clearly if you can't percieve the difference between Vampires and My Little Ponies you aren't going to be much of a help to Town.

Raise: MoI

[MagnaofIllusion]

I will vig anyone that raises themselves beyond this post.

Explain why. Because you played Clash of Kings. So yeah, explain.

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I want the governor powers out of play, and

I'm one of the few I trust

to put them there.

Please explain the bolded. Who are the other few you would trust and why do you trust them Page 1?

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I'd join the wagon on my bro Percy.....but we should already get down to business. Which VI goes first?

vote chesskid

Benmage makes a solid point here. I want to expand upon it.

To those who did not play in Clash of Kings please review it. A VI (CSL) killed the Town. He had been under pressure early on (Day 2) and was let of the hook for being a VI. Later he quickhammered the Town Doctor before a claim could be made and was still not held accountable. Obviously scum left him for the end-game scenario where he self-hammered as Town and facilitated the scum joint win.

The moral of the story – if a VI player is playing scummy you lynch / vig them. Giving a VI a pass based on being a VI assures they get deeper in the game where their poor decisions and actions have a greater negative impact be they Town or Scum.

/off Soapbox.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have infinite multiple dayvig powers. I'm swinging Excalibur.

That’s not a reason. That’s fluff, but I know how you roll so I'm not surprised.

But now that DGB and others have killed the possible useful information that could be gleaned from the self-raise / raise others information I’m going to explain why it would have been better to let it go for several pages before getting all up in arms about it.

I went back to Clash of Kings and did a quick survey. The Day 1 Raise there had 26 players available. For some ungodly reason Unsight never raised. That leaves 25 who actually raised that day.

10 made their first raise themselves.
15 made their first raise another.

Of the 10 who first raised themselves 3 were scum. Of the 15 who first raised another 6 were scum. So a 30% rate on self-raises and 40% rate on non-self raises. Keep in mind this is a brief skim just looking at the first raise vote. Some chose to hold onto their own first raise for a significant amount of time. I’m sure looking at post 1 to 3 first raises versus later first raises might provide even more info. But I’m not going to bother with that now since the rose is off the bloom as it were.

So yes, waiting patiently would have given us some information to mine down the line. But you guys had to go and ruin it. Thanks.

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THIS IS NOT RVS. SCUM WILL SEEK TO RAISE OTHER SCUM.

Actually I don’t think a single scum in Clash of Kings (8 total Mafia, the SK is ignored since he couldn’t raise a partner) raised a partner in the initial raise votes. There was some interesting cross-raising going on but no direct partner to partner raises.

@MoI - at the moment, 'few' is composed solely of me.

Then really it isn’t a few unless you have voices in your head you are counting we don’t know about. For that reason I don’t buy your hedging here. If you only trusted yourself you would have said “I’m the only player I trust”. For someone who prides themselves on strong oratory skills I’m not sure I buy your explanation.

Noooooottt really, no. Don't have this amazing desire to find out what scum can do with a governor power. Don't have an amazing desire to find out if there's any powers that scum have brought online with this "Hand of the King" mechanic. Don't have any desire to find out that they have some sort of godfather powers or turn cops naive, or can get some cool thing if they're hand.

Clash of Kings says there is no special power provided to anyone by the Raising process other than the explicit Governor ability. Percy as scum was Raised to be a double-voter in Clash and got nothing else with it. So this probably is a little more paranoia than anything.

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No, you're scummy for Raising without voting and your only justification for self-raising being "a concise way to piss off zoraster."

Explain the scum motivation to pissing of zoraster as a newer player for me again. Because I missed it the first time.

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How many VIs do you count in this game, Magna?

Based on personal experience and the player list as it is constituted now I see 1 player I consider a lock VI and 3 border-line cases who I might get the pass. There are 3 players I have no direct knowledge about who are new enough that they might also get the VI / newb pass.

Your point in asking?

[MagnaofIllusion]

But is that significantly better than chance? Chance is 36% of players are expected to be scum in either group. So a 4-6% difference from chance with a sample size of 25 isn't significant enough to bother with the actual calculations to determine significance.

As I said it was a quick glance at the raw data. The more useful data would probabaly have been to look at the ratio of those who self-raised in their first 3 posts versus those who didn’t and then look at the rations of those who self-raised in the first vote later versus those who didn’t.

But as I said … it’s pointless now.

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Lets face it, for those who have played with me, you know that the only way for me to be good is to be unlynchable v_v. So those who were in Gorrad favorite ficitional mafia game, unraise your hand for yourself and raise it for me.

Let me be frank Bunny. No way in hell. In Gorrad’s game your strength was that you were deemed unkillable and were left alone by the scum for Nightkills. It wasn’t your stellar scum-hunting or decision making.

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And yet the very fact that you know this statistic tells us that scum could easily have seen this and decided to self-raise because "that's what town does".

Enter WIFOM. And those who didn’t play the first game are less likely to know the history and thus aren’t going to be influenced by that knowledge.

Let me ask you dana – did you know this statistic? You played in the first game.

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As for your datamining, it's obviously worthless. One player voted themselves instead of another, and it would be 40% scum voted self, 33% voted town. A swing of one person would reverse your so-called results. That's below the noise level, and no useful data can be gleaned except that scum are reasonably good at blending in with town - when there's no useful ability to be gleaned. That was true in CoK. Do I trust it's true here and now? No.

Dismissing that any possible information can be gleaned from information in a similar past game is short-sighted.

Honestly, I really want to kick you. A 25 person sample is nowhere near enough to get below noise on anything less than a 30-40% difference. I'm glad you brought it up now, because there's a chance you could derail a scum wagon with an argument that fucking poor. If you have any more terrible statistics that are below noise level, please don't share them with us.

Did you miss the part where I said the real important data would be mined at a deeper level? Ok thanks. And the little strawman you throw out here about ‘derailing a scum wagon’ is noted. You are pre-supposing how the information would be used when there is no evidence that it would be used in that manner. Especially since, as I said in that post, the likely relevant trends from Clash have been rendered useless the discussion already.

I notice you didn't address my response to your statement that your all-caps statement about scum seeking to raise Partners. Do you really think they would go out of the way to immedaitely draw links to each other?

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One thing is for sure: the Hand should be picked by at least a large plurality. We can't let it be picked by 2 or 3 people.

Are you honestly suggesting no-one would be moving their Raise votes as play developed? That’s rather foolish to assume. A similar pattern happened in Clash (lots of early scattered raises) and eventually Percy was raised by Majority based on his Town looking play (which was a facade of course).

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Because I am leery of people who say "Policy lynching a VI D1 is the smart move" when there's more than one VI.

Yet that’s not the point I was making thanks. I expanded on Benmage’s ‘policy lynch’ statement that brought forth the concept of VIs to specifically state that VI players should not be given a pass if they play scummy.

If I supported a Day 1 policy lynch on Chess I’d be voting for him.

My question to you – why no direct questions for Benmage based on this reasoning? He suggested that there are more than one VI in his post.

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Zdenek any of these people?

No. I’ve played with him in multiple games. He’s not Glork but he’s far and away not a VI.

There's no motivation for either faction. But someone who's scum is more likely to be primed to troll. Especially since this is Shadow's first large game on mafiascum. Scum tend to like to show false bravado, in my experience.

So you are saying Shadow, as scum in his very first Large game, would be well served trolling and bringing attention to himself? Sorry, I don’t see the logic there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I supported a Day 1 policy lynch on Chess I’d be voting for him.

Why don't you support a Day 1 policy lynch on Chess?

Because policy lynching doesn't work. I used to support them (which carried over from the old site I used to play at) but in my year here I've come to the conclusion they don't work. Furculow in [REDACTED] was the last straw for me. I support hanging VIs when they play scummy, not simply because they are historic VIs.

Do you support a Day 1 policy lynch of Chesskid?

And which of the three heads are you anyway?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did DGB just claim scum

Yes. She now is a claimed Infinite Dayvigging Scum. Game over, we lose.

Or she’s doing what she often does … sarcasm.

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Oh shut up with the self-justifications, MoI. That garbage data was mislynch fodder waiting to happen. I have no problem learning things from past games, I have problems learning things that are wrong. You drew a conclusion that was not justified by the data. That's wrong. I'm not insisting on three sigma, but I'd like at least ONE SIGMA.

Wait what? The data the I said was not going to be of any use because of the discussion and had yet to be really looked at? Just curious if you bother to read before starting off your ranting tangents.

And make up your mind on which way you are going to incorrectly argue. Is it that the ‘garbage data’ was going to incorrectly clear Scum or was mislynch fodder? Both are clearly strawman arguments but your flip-flopping just looks like you are throwing whatever you can to obscure my original argument.

This is fucking classic IIoA. Mislynch after mislynch out of your garbage data? No. If it's not significant, keep it out of the thread. If it becomes significant, bring it up. Don't fucking give me shit statistics and expect me to smile and eat them as if you're adding something.

Sigh. Grey what color is the sky in your world? Really, I’d like to know.

1. Throwing a wikitell and throwing in profanity to show how ‘passionnate’ you are doesn’t make your flawed arguments more compelling.
2. Once again you posit a Strawman by stating that mislynches were going to flow from the data when IN MY POST I SAID IT WASN’T USEABLE THIS GAME.

So far you've added nothing but wall post after wall post, IIoA, and no fucking analysis whatsoever. I am telling you the truth, I am town, you are not helping the town. As for scum establishing links between themselves, yes, sure. Look at the thread - most people are recommending that we don't select for a week. Lots of time to establish your town cred, throw your town cred behind other scum's town cred, start a wagon, whatever.

1. If you wish to cry about Wall posts take a quarter and call someone who cares. Reading isn’t a hardship.
2. My questioning of others is part of the process of determining alignments. Sorry it doesn’t suit your ‘tastes’
3. Why so insistent that you are Town? I see several people questioning your rather outlandish conclusions but don’t see many calls coming for your head.
4. You dodged the question’s context. I didn’t ask if Scum was going to push for their partners to EVENTUALLY be made the Hand. I specifically asked why you, in all caps, stated that early raises aimed at players other than themselves was an indication of scum pushing their partners. Of course scum are going to want the power for themselves down the line today. I am asking why people not raising themselves is an indication of scum pushing partners when it occurs in the first 4 pages of a Large Theme game.

Want me to put the arguments in your terms, MoI? Clash of Kings - they voted scum into the doublevoter, didn't they? How long did they take to decide that? Did they come to some compromise candidate everyone liked? What are the odds that that selection was scum influenced? It didn't hurt the town... once. Will it hurt the town this time? I don't like arguing from a sample size of one. What's the odds scum will end up with the power? What are the odds scum can push the governor power onto someone they think might misuse it?

Let’s discuss Clash. Percy as scum got the double-vote. It put him under a significant amount of scrutiny for the use of that power. This led to an investigation and eventual Dayvig. It will be no different for whoever becomes the Hand here.

Arguing about LYLO issues is at best fear-mongering as is railing about people who might ‘misuse’ it. Of course it can be a dangerous ability in the wrong hands. That's not a reason to scream "The Sky is Falling" Chicken Little.

I'm in the spotlight. You think this is a scum gambit? It's not.

Yes, because there are never scum players who are bold and grab attention. I’ll direct you to Fate, who I know you like, as someone who as scum put himself in a Day 1 1V1 with Town Toogelo in AGM’s recently ended game. It’s a Null action.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know what would be great? If we could stop the soft-claiming going on ...

I understand in Cow's case given his PR why he more or less had to but others of you don't have any reason to be giving up your charater.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What this thread needs is appearances by xvart and Percy. And soon.

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Don't really like this either. It just looks like you want to lynch him for his bad play and don't even think he'll flip scum.

Why exactly is Chesskid worthy of specific scorn for this stance when Benmage is not?

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The only other thing I'd like to know from Hasg is if he can vote/raise or not. Also I have to wonder (and if I'm over-stepping my bounds or this is something we don't want scum to know, ignore it), does breach of your restriction result in a) modkill, or b) tree-stumping? If I'm going too far into modkill territory myself by asking, just ignore this >_>

Why do you keep asking if Cow can vote when he already has and it was reflected in the prior vote-count made by the Mods?

Furthermore this is the second time you’ve specifically mentioned Treestump / Treestumping in relation to Cow. Why?

Also, serious amounts of fence-sitting detected in Shadow’s 161. It can be summed up nicely with “Grey might be scum but might not be scum”.

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We can just waste the ability early on if we fear it….its really not very powerful.

I think this is a very viable solution if we can’t form a solid concensus as to whether the Governor 1shot should be held for later down the line.

LOOK. Town can win this probably lynching 1 scum the whole game. Odds are there’s a scum Team of the North Robb Stark etc etc, and Odds are there’s a Stannis scum team. That alone means there will likely be crosskilled.

YOU KNOW WHO WONT BE NIGHTKILLED The aforementioned idiots. It is our job as the town to kill em all. We don’t need to kill scum today tomorrow or the next day to win this. We need to kill off the unreadable. The ones who even if town will lose us the game.

Really? You somehow assume that you are the only one who knows this?

On a flavor note what happened to the Greyjoys? Are they all dead by this book. I haven’t read the series but really liked them last time around

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Yeah, Benmage is scum.

Blatant rolefishing.

Um what? Please stop using the Wiki as your Bible. It just makes you look foolish.

Furthermore … why is Benmage’s ‘fishing’ scummy but Shadow’s repeated fishing of Cow not even worth a peep from you. Is it because you are inflicted with UK syndrome and assume everyone who questions you is scum?

Asking people not to selfvote is not scummy. Attempting to threaten people into not self voting is scummy, because it shuts off discussion. DGB has done nothing to foster discussion, and attempted to call it off.

You need to think things through before you post them. Because DGB’s statement didn’t stifle discussion. In fact it launched it.

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@Raivann

– Thanks for showing up in the thread. Is this minimalist posting style the result of your outing yourself as scum last time?

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Enough mislynches will lose us the game.

Of course it will. The question is, in a 26 player game, how many will be two many. I doubt you seriously think we are immediate danger if our first lynch doesn’t hit scum. And it is entirely possible for VI to actually be scum, correct?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey DGB - if Locke is certified scum why is your vote still on LynchMePls? Just curious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah and if I'm town, why haven't you raised me?

MoI your town. Do me a favor and raise me. LETS start this wagn

The best question is ... why haven't you raised yourself? It hard to jump on a wagon you aren't even supporting yet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unraise MoI
Raise Benmage

I’m willing to do this based on past experiences with you Ben. Don’t disappoint me.

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Also, I forgot about LMP, it's fixed now.

So your read (which I understand is limited) on LMP is stronger than your Locke read. Do you see strong differences between LMP’s play here and in Clash where you called him UberObvTown?

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Holy shit, it posts content! And decent content. Unvote

What about DGB posting content reversed your previous views on him as scummy in the first quote?

The 'teehee, memory didn't serve correctly' or 'omg it was like three years ago' isn't going to fly when you just tried to get someone lynched by lying. I found the game in like 5 minutes, I can't believe that she didn't even bother to look it up.

So you object to it as a lie because of the following element in his recollection were wrong – that Hascow faked the post restriction. Because every other element was accurate – Cow gained powers when posting under the restriction and was scum. Or is it that she didn’t directly look it up but went off memory that is scummy?

How again is DGB pushing hard for Cow’s lynch when she is voting for LMP again?

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I'll take zoraster off town list. I just iso'd him after that comment from Greyice.I don't like his vote for Shadow much either.

So you just threw zoraster on your Town list just based on his name as opposed to based on his actual play?

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But none of the previous ASoIaF games have included anything similar, even though they could've.

So your set-up argument revolves around Mod-meta specific to the Game of Thrones mini and Clash of Kings?

But let's explore this. Hasfgdas is voting for Shadow instead of DGB, even after DGB makes the post about him faking a posting restriction before.

Um what? Are you saying Cow must vote for DGB since DGB said he was faking a restriction and thus scum?

I find your case to be unconvincingly. I do not find hasdgfas' actions so far to be town, and I especially do not like his vote on Shadow. If he were to show up now and vote for DGB, I would ask why he didn't in post #223.

Do you find diddin’s post scummier than Cow’s posts since you are voting for diddin currently?

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On the whole, liking GreyICE.

Elaborate on why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Theme/Flavor-
I haven't read any of the books, etc. and I haven't taken the time to read the prior games in this series (nor am I very motivated to do so). It sounds like some people are expecting multiple scum teams based on those games? Could someone who actually played the prior games please summarize anything mechanics-wise that is likely to be carried over from those games to this one? Thanks.

I’ll expand on the mechanics elements from Clash of Kings. Each day for the first 4 days the Mods gave the players a unique event to vote on.

Day 1 (Hand of the King) – As with this game Day 1 a Hand was raised that had Double-voting power for the rest of the game.

Day 2 (Mob Action) – the Mods locked the thread for 24 to 48 hours to conduct a secret vote. The player who received the most votes in that period was Stabbed. This removed their vote for the day and rendered them Vanilla.

Day 3 (Light a Candle) – Players were allowed to step forward to be inspected by the Gods. Once players had finished stepping forward a popular vote was taken. The winner was subject to a guaranteed sane Cop scan made public in thread by the Mods.

Day 4 (Fire on the Island) – Two players were lynched this Day. When one player was hammered the person with the second most votes was also killed.

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No. The question was directed at GreyICE, not at hasdgfas.

Ok, gotcha.

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Can Wallbanger give me one good reason that we'd lynch hascow today? Just one? His posts are lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Listen Fate-lite. I addressed you with questions for a reason. Dodging them isn’t going to make them go away.

I love the reliance on rhetoric though. Shows me much about how you approach the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, I'm laughing at the idea that I 'rely on rhetoric' because I try to make my posts readable

Do you understand what rhetoric is? It's constantly making references to someone being "scumtastic" or "fluffy" and using insults without providing reasons. Instead of calling someone by name you've proceeded to label several players with nicknames meant to undercut their credibility.

I'll say it again - Reading isn't a hardship. Mafia is a WRITTEN game. If you don't want to read go find another hobby like Etch-a-Sketch or Lite Brite.

I'll ask again since you use the "I'm skimming" excuse not to answer direct questions -

What about DGB posting content reversed your previous views on him as scummy?

So you object to it as a lie because of the following element in his recollection were wrong – that Hascow faked the post restriction. Because every other element was accurate – Cow gained powers when posting under the restriction and was scum. Or is it that she didn’t directly look it up but went off memory that is scummy?

How again is DGB pushing hard for Cow’s lynch when she is voting for LMP again?

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Any thoughts/views on Song?

Song doesn't exactly have a long ISO even at this point. Her one post with content I would characterize as Agreeable almost to fault. Gut at this point says she is Newbie scum wanting to not make waves. I'll need to see more to form a full read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from early this afternoon until Monday for a weekend family trip.

TL DR Summary of the below

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diddin, GreyICE, and at least one off of DGB’s list below is scum.

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Despite rolling town. I've been looking forward to this game way too much to not give it my A-game.

As long as your A-game doesn’t involve faking a guilty on someone who ends up Lannister aligned I’m happy to hear this.

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One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin

I subscribe to the logic behind this statement and would further expand that if we are in a multi-scum environment and Shadow is Town there are likely multiple scum from multiple factions here.

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It's because she used something that was

factually untrue

to cast suspicion on someone. That's fucking bullshit, and it doesn't fly. Now here's a question for you: Why not let her defend herself? You earning white knight points somewhere? It's almost too bad that the answers are going to be buried inside a 4,000 word wall of long quotes interspersed with insipid one liners and pointless rambling so I really won't ever read them.

I note that in this response you snipped the important part of my questions. I’m not surpised since the questions you specifically avoided go right to the heart of why your attack is scumtastic. I’ve bolded the part which you continue to assert.

DGB’s claim is that Cow in a previous game FAKED a crippling PR, GAINED powers from it, and WAS scum.

Two of those three, as I understand it, are correct and indisputable. He was scum and did gain powers by following the optional PR. So you are asserting that it’s factually inaccurate because DGB used the word faked? Because Cow would have had to fake being required to only post two words to gain the powers.

RTFT. Yeah, these were a total waste of my time. Thanks. Lets not do that again.

I’ve read the thread. I’m trying to determine why you are so hot to attack her for Cow being on her list of scum. If Cow is faking a PR then it’s clearly scummy. That’s far more reasoning than what she’s provided about Locke or LMP. You don’t even blink an eye about them.

Also I'm highlighting for everyone else to see how your attack is incorrect. Add it to your repeated back-tracking in thread and repeated attempts to label yourself as Town by statement as opposed to action. The result - you earn a scum read.

Oh yeah, and DGB is a 'her.' I figured this out because I'm reading the thread, not abusing multitab and the quote button.

I also know she is female. That’s why I said things like “She didn’t”. Oops I interchanged 1 pronoun. My bad. Your continued rhetoric (inferring I’m not reading and stating that posting as I do is scummy without support as to why) is just further logs for the bonfire I'm lighting under you.

And this is a prime example of the type of ‘insipid one-liners’ you accuse me of making. Bravo, you’ve reached full hypocrisy in record time.

He can't have the common courtesy to summarize his thoughts in a way that is at least readable, I'm not gonna have the courtesy to read him

Funny, because this is just your excuse to extricate yourself from scrutiny. The ‘Take your ball and go home’ defense often comes up when I see scum under pressure that makes them uncomfortable. So they invent a reason not to respond. As you just did.

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If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

This is scumtastic. Does having a Town read (baffling as his is on GreyICE) mean it is automatically stronger than his Town read on Twilight?

Quit bitching about MOI's posting style ICE. Just because you can't read/don't like his posting style doesn't mean he's going to change it. The world doesn't revolve around you.

You know what triggers my scumdar? Blatant buddying up to me.

Fred Garvin did it in Newbie 969
NoPoint did in in [REDACTED]
Fonz did it in Seinfeld Mafia (and I didn’t call him on it damn it)
Kapia did it in Gorrad’s Favorite Fiction Character Mafia (and it made no sense since she saw Fred Garvin do it in Newbie 969)

They all were scum.

You want a potential vig to kill someone you believe to be town over someone you believe to be scum? FoS

Insert face-palm pic here …

I know you know very well Vigs hitting VI players is important to Town in the long run. You played Clash.

Yet here you are throwing dirt on your previously held strongest Town read.

UNVOTE: Zdenek
VOTE: diddin

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from my V/LA –

Also Magua never said he thought Sparkle was town. He just said he thought their reads would be similar, and as such, Sparkle would use the governor ability in a way Magua likes.

Magua clearly implied that by mimicking his own thought processes (which Magua implicitly is claiming is a Town perspective) his read on Sparkle was Town. Attacking him for not explicitly saying such when it was clearly implied by the writing and Raise vote itself is scummy.

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That condescending attitude helps no one. Yes, this is a game about reading, but that doesn't mean that it's equally easy, enjoyable, or useful to give us giant walls. If I were to write all of my posts in Pig Latin, it is obvious I could not take recourse in the "this is a written game" defense; but oftentimes slogging through a large wall is equally as annoying as deciphering Pig Latin. I wouldn't say it in the overly aggressive way GreyICE phrased it ("fuck you, I'm not reading that!"), but all the same, I think it's worth saying that you absolutely do have an obligation as town to try to make your thoughts as readable as possible, and concision is a very helpful tool to that end.

We are going to have to agree to disagree if you are asserting my posting is difficult to read. I don’t think it is … the Pig Latin analogy isn’t applicable at all, IMO. My posting style is my style. I’m not going to change. If you find that lynch worthy please make your best effort to try to achieve your goal.

As for the condescension – I’m simply indulging my (bad) personal habit of treating others as they treat me. GreyICE was similarly condescending before my post. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.

Explain how this:
Gels with this:

I have played with Benmage-Town many times in the past. I feel I have a good sense of how he plays as such. His demeanour and play so far this game give me a Town read on him. And when we are Town together I’ve found we can work well.

The ‘faking a Guilty’ comment has to do with Gorrad’s recently ended Large game. Late in the game Ben, as a Cop, fake a guilty on a player he had a scum-read on. The player ended up being Town. Suffice it to say I wasn’t pleased with that play. Read the game if you like. Outside of Fate he was the only player (up until that gambit) that I trusted in terms of reads and judgement.

That gambit that blew up in his face is the source of my comment. It isn’t something that erases multiple other instances of my belief that Benmage can be a strong Pro-Town force.

Also, to the town at large: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?

I have to say I don’t simply for the inherent relational information that can be drawn from it. I don’t think handcuffing a player who achieves a >50% Town read is logical. And I highly doubt said Governor power is going to make it to a LYLO situation.

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MoI expanded in post 84, but the question now is why all the bravado on how solid Benmage's observation was about how VIs can destroy town chances later in the game? And why wasn't it mentioned that you don't actually support lynching VIs unless they are scummy?

As stated before … the point I was reinforcing (which was not intended to be Benmage’s rant) was not that VIs should be immediately lynched but that VIs who play scummy and are left for the end of the game based solely on the “he’s a VI” are a danger to Town regardless of their alignment.

Do you disagree with my stance? I can show you examples of VIs who were Town submarining Town in endgame and also examples of VIs who were Scum who managed to skate through to the end and win just using the VI Shield.

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@Zdenek

– I’ll ask you to elaborate on one portion of your case –

When I've played with MoI as scum, he has definitely been guilty of taking the exact phrasing of someone's statement and using it against him

You haven’t ever played with me in a game when I was Town. Did you bother to look to see if my posting style was radically different when I was Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

But I believe hascow is faking the restriction.

If you are right he can't exactly back down now as he will be instantly lynched.
If you a wrong then he would be playing against his wincon to break the restriction.

I don't see him giving up either way.

If you really think he's faking push a wagon on him. Town has ZERO reason to fake that sort of PR.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hmm that's untrue
one of these days I am going to play a whole game with only quoting people and votes/unvotes. >_>

1. Specify what's untrue.
2. I'd welcome that game, if only to watch the reaction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Town has ZERO reason to fake that sort of PR.

This is untrue
would have to fake that as a PR, because otherwise people will be all like
post words asshole

I don't want get into a huge debate more suited to Mafia Discussion but you are wrong. There is no Pro-Town reason to fake a Post Restriction of the kind Cow is displaying.

There may be Lulz reasons or Trolling reasons. None of them are Pro-Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Anyone with a Zoraster Town read

– Look at his ISO and please explain to me the Townishness? Is it based on past experience? Because I some ‘See I’m Town look at how worried I am about something that will work itself out’ posting, a single post indicating reads (ISO 4), some unexplained vote-hopping and much filler fluff.

--

@Twilight Sparkle – Hito edition

: I don’t think you ever responded to my question regarding Newb scum’s motivation to draw attention to themselves in a Large Theme game with many experienced players (in relation to Shadow). Did I miss that explanation?

--

But your willingness to provide examples of town VI killing the town endgame and VI scum winning in endgame is strange based on your first stated premise not to lynch VIs immediately. Where do you draw the line and when should those people be lynched?

I’m starting to wonder about your thought process here. I’ve said it very clearly … if someone (VI or no) acts scummy they should be lynched. It’s a pretty simple process. Letting someone act in a manner consistent with being scum and letting them off the hook for being a VI (or any other ‘they always act this way’ excuse) is just inviting potential disaster down the line.

I draw the line at lynching scummy people (VIs or no) when they act scummy. It's a pretty standard concept.
--

@MoI: What counts as buddying to you?

I best can demonstrate the prior instances from completed games that to show you what I mean –

And BTW...that was one quality post from MoI. Took the words right out of my mouth.

This is right after I pointed out (correctly, the argument being made was bad) that an attack on Fred wasn't valid. As I said, as Town my instinct is not say “X made a great post defending me, that’s awesome”.

Next read The Fonz’s ISO 1 and 2 HERE. In context I had been placed under pressure mainly for an ‘Invisible tell’ that MacavityLock ‘had’ (which ended up, of course, being completely invalid). It’s much more subtle than Fred Garvin’s (one of the reasons why it worked for him) but in hindsight it is there.

Lastly we have –

Btw, great posts by Magna. You defended me better than I would have ever been able to myself. Also good case against Chess, I agree.

Once again I was pointing out why the attack being made wasn’t logical (again, this is independent of Kapia’s actual alignment). What really made this ring my Scumdar was that Kapia played as Town in Newbie 969 and saw Fred Garvin do exactly the same thing.

Then look at diddin’s ISO s 0 and 2 in the sections where he mentions me. While ostensibly attacking GreyICE the manner in which he does so looks more as ‘Defend MoI’ than ‘Go after Scummy GreyICE’. I don’t particularly feel the need to have someone else fight my battles for me and the language diddin chose to use set off my patented Buddying detection system.

--

I've looked at your games in the past, and I don't think that your posting style is radically different depending on whether you're town or scum. As far as the particular issue mentioned in the quote above, is there a particular game that you would like to direct me to? It would be quite difficult for me to demonstrate that you never do something as town, but quite easy, I think, for you to provide evidence that you do.

Do you think that there is a scum motivation behind GreyICE's exaggeration? If you do, what is it?

In regards to the first part I’m asking you to help determine my read on you. I don’t have any particular game I want you to see. I’m just sizing up the potential motivation you may have had in making an attack, however minor you later profess it to be, based on a small subset of games.

I do see scum motivations in GreyICE’s method of attack. Town doesn’t need to attack based on incorrect or exaggerated ‘data’. For example, the attack on DGB for using ‘clearly false’ data was bad since it was demonstrated that DGB wasn’t inaccurate in her statements.

I also don’t like Grey’s habit of ‘attacking the attacker’. I’ve seen multiple instances where he’s focused on rhetoric in labelling questions as ‘useless’ as opposed to answering them.

I also find it suspect that when presented with arguments showing facets of Grey’s attacks are incorrect he suddenly shifts gears. DGB was obvsccum for among other things the whole ‘Post Restriction’ attack and when refuted suddenly DGB disappears from Grey’s ISO. No mention that he was incorrect in his attack. He stops the DBG is obvscum attack cold and suddenly moves on to “I’m going to lynch Muki”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, hasdgfas, please put a vote up.

Aside from the fact that he already had one up why are you focusing on certain players and not others in regards to having place a vote?

Percy, Xtoxm, Feysal and Kast all have not voted. Percy is V/LA due to sickness but Kast is active and the others are lurking in some form or fashion.

--

In other news, loving MoI. He FOSes one of my scum suspects and then whines about me flopping my vote around. Way to be consistent, man. Sorry there's more than one scum in the game.

Complete misrep here.

1. I didn’t FOS anyone (show me where my posts where those letters appear) in the direct meaning of the phrase. Were you referring to my question about having a Town read on Zoraster? I am expressing suspicion of Zoraster.
2. You are attempting to mischaracterize my attack as whining about vote hopping when that of course is not the case. Can you show me where I attacked you for vote-hopping? I’m attacking you not for moving your vote but for the scummy manner in which you do it, as shown below.

GreyICE – “DGB is obvscum for cutting off discussion about Raising of the Hand.”
Others – Show how DGB’s ‘Infinite Dayvig’ claim didn’t cut of discussion.
GreyICE – “DGB made a single post with content, she’s not obvscum anymore”

GreyICE – “DGB just lied about Cow’s role in a game over 2 years old. I should have never moved my vote”
Others – Demonstrate how it wasn’t a lie at all given the facts and circumstances.
GreyICE – “Muki is clearly scum and must be hung”

You jumping on multiple players with next to no actually scum-motivate behavior you can back up and following up with rhetoric. Then when called on such you pretty much ignore the criticism and drop the subject of the person altogether until you can find some other ‘scum-tell’. The timing of said jumps seems very much to coincide with whatever general consensus can be had in the thread, aka coat-tailing.

And now you ostensibly are wanting to 'work' with DGB. Have you officially called of your obvscum read on her?

3. Your consistency attack is crap. How exactly am I bouncing my vote around? I’m not. Of course I know there are multiple scum in the game. That’s the point of questioning players besides the one my vote is on. Again, a dismissive statement by yourself that doesn’t bear any direct relation to the facts of the game.

I don't get this at all. Why would that sequence of events happen? The namecop can breadcrumb their results somewhere. We'll find the breadcrumb if they die. Come out on day 3/4 and give us a laundry list of results. Meanwhile we lose nothing by waiting except that we have to flip someone else.

It more or less happened in Clash of Kings. Locke came out Day 3 with scans on diddin and Percy because he got a guilty on Percy. And then proceeded to be blocked until he died.

Not to mention the danger of breadcrumbing results which could easily lead to scum picking up on them and killing said Cop.

I generally don’t buy the Town mindset of “Don’t lynch player that multiple people suspect, let’s let the Cop deal with them at night”. If enough people believe Cow is faking and scum lynching him is a wise course of action. There is so much that can go wrong with planning to see what the Cop brings Day 3/4 that banking on it is at best just stupid.

You risk hitting Town if you do lynch Cow, but lynching anyone else brings the same uncertainty so that’s an invalid argument.

--

And notice how hascow is cowering under a bail of hay and barely participating since I showed up at the farm driving the slaughterhouse truck.

At this point either shit or get off the pot. You aren’t voting for Cow as of this post. If this is some Grand DGB-style ‘Tarp’ it isn’t working. People are more interested in you moving on to do some scum-hunting. You’ve made your point we know – you believe Cow is faking a Post Restriction and that’s scum motivation. Either push the wagon on Cow or start actually pushing LMP (who your vote is on currently) or one of your other scum reads.

--

@ DGB
Keep up that pressure.

What pressure? The only person actually voting for Cow when you posted this was Bunnylover. If you support DGB’s thoughts why didn’t you vote for Cow yourself?

--

Exactly. Why would someone named that get replaced? She was obviously stoked for this game, but got caught as scum early.

Or the other option is she’s a relative Newb (November 2010 join date) who has played in exactly one game other than this one and flaked from the site completely. That never happens

--

Shadow is firmly on my scum detector. I don't see him trying to find scum at all, while trying to slip under the radar. Because nothing has changed from my initial scum reads, that makes LL, Kast and Shadow my scum reads. I'd love to see a wagon on any one of them.

Really? Shadow’s contributions to scum hunting read as much more honest than yours at this juncture.

I think I have an idea who cow is (or is claiming to be) and potentially why the mods would have done it that way. I'm not sure I should reveal l it at this point because I'm not sure of my guess and it might not help town to know this early, but I'd love if cow would address my previous question to him.

This is really bad. That charcter was outed within a page or so of Cow’s acknowledging that he has a Post Restriction. This is blatant ‘Look, I’m being Pro-Town by pretending not to out information’.

@Anyone with Zoraster meta

– Is he usually this scattered / scummy in games? Having seen a few of his games I can’t exactly buy someone who runs elaborate and detailed set-ups would make mistakes like this and the whole ‘Chess is dead’ thing.

--

Overall I small sweet, have a manly beard, and desire to lynch Magna on general principle.

Welcome Thor. Two words – Reboot Mafia. Mull them over for me.

--

To me, it read like you were taking a snipe at him as a VI and yet you had raised him after your early game rant. Your explanation tells me I read that wrong, but I am still paranoid. Can I get some games you were in with Benmage as a "Pro-Town force"?

Please point to the exact quote where you think I was swiping at Benmage as a VI. I’d really like to know where you saw that because that’s about as far removed from what I’ve said about Ben as you can get.

Games I’ve played with Benmage where I believe he was a Pro-Town force or worked well with me or both –

Kingdom of Loathing Mafia.

Clash of Kings -especially after Day 1 which made sense in relation to his role.

Supernatural Mafia – I acknowledge this is an odd choice from the standpoint that he was actually a Mafia Traitor. Yet as my neighbor we collaborated well in the QT and caught the Scum Leader (ReaperCharlie) red handed Night 1.

Gorrad’s Favorite Characters Mafia – he replaced useless Zaz and was one of the two player I trusted, late game gambit not-withstanding.

@Twilight Sotty

– Please prod Hito to answer the question I’ve got hanging out for him.

--

Kast has a scummy avatar, and it's making me unable to read him

I had hopes you would try to avoid playing the VI / Troll this game. Only to see them dashed on the Rocks of Reality …

[MagnaofIllusion]

OR MAYBE YOUR PLAY HAS BEEN TOTAL AND COMPLETE

SHIT

AND YOUR RECORD OF CATCHING SCUM IS CUTE AND ALL, BUT YOU AIN'T DOING MUCH OF IT HERE.

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AGGRESSIVE PLAY AND SHIT PLAY, AND THIS IS THE LATTER.

Really now ... how do you know he isn't doing a good job of catching scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since GreyICE is being replaced I will not waste any words refuting his futher bad logic.

I’ll ISO xvart when I have time later but the players on the wagon as shown in Post 568 tells me it probably isn’t a good place to go (Chesskid, GreyICE and Raivann)

TL DR Summary of below

– my pool of those I’m willing to lynch has widened to, in approximate order – Zoraster, diddin, Raivann, and GreyICE’s replacement.

--

Well, I have my own meta, though obviously I don't expect you to put any great weight on it.

Your expectation will be met regarding this statement. Self-provided meta, IMO, is absolutely useless and further renders any Town meta others might provide also moot since being aware of your own Town tendancies means you can play to them.

For the rest of you guys, the question is essentially this: In your ideal game as town would you rather have an unconfirmed governor running around or not?

Classic softball leading question. The answer you are directing to is, of course, no. The problem is that you use the word ‘ideal’. Mafia games are NEVER ideal. The better question is … what potential damage do you forsee from an unconfirmed governer running about?

The answer is very little.

UNVOTE: Diddin
VOTE: Zoraster

Zoraster’s reaction to the little bit of questioning being supplied is interesting. Up until page 20 I would characterize his posting as mostly fluff and active lurking. Some random votes thrown down, comical not-game relevant comments to the mod and a total lack of scum-hutning.

Suddenly after being brought into the spotlight we have this explosion of activity. It still isn’t anything of relevance to scum-hutning. Instead we get a page plus of jousting with Magua about a theoretical endgame of which the likelihood of occurring is minimal and discussion about why someone is asking him questions.

The ‘suspicions’ rundown at 520 is pretty but manages to not say very much that hasn’t already been brought up in thread. I do find that addition of Raivann to be interesting. Perhaps a case of FOS Partner (Raivann), Vote Someone else (Locke)?

--

The snipe I am talking about is what I originally quoted here. It read like a dig at him because it was a response you gave to ben that wasn't actually needed. Ben was just talking about bringing his A game and you brought up some fail on his part as if he needed a reminder. I don't understand why you would do that unless it was you trying to discredit him. But I have noticed that your playstyle has changed from when we first played in that you like to throw out a lot of these quips at people that makes you sound very judgmental. I'm guessing it is a null tell now, but I don't like it much.

Combine all that with the fact I remembered you were raising benmage despite him not playing up to your standards recently and I saw a contradiction.

Actually as I type this out, I am getting more and more confused as to why you would raise Ben. He doesn't seem like your kind of player. His style is either hit or miss from my experience and as already demonstrated, you look down on players who “miss”. I'm gonna check out these links you have provided, but out of everyone in the game... I'm having a hard time swallowing you raising Benmage. Gut says you did it to either get him on your good side or to go with the flow. Neither is a good thing.

So what I’m taking away from this is that –

1. You ‘dislike’ my playstyle.
2. You don’t think raising Benmage makes sense but you didn’t both to actually look at the links you yourself requested.
3. You think you know what kind of player I think can be effective better than I do.

Every bit of this post is pre-judged. At this point my guts says this is an exercise in you trying to find some way to describe my raising of Benmage as suspect regardless of what the response was. Noted.

Because they're the ones I'm interested in seeing vote. Given hasdgfas' post restriction, voting is the absolute easiest way to get a read on him.

So it is a completely arbitrary process and not related to a personal scum tell you have? Got it.

--

I'm tired of people talking about the governor ability. Let's lynch Mikujin. I get the feeling her DGB votes are more based on the idea that DGB is being stupid than DGB is being scummy. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of conviction that DGB is actually scum.

Would you characterize Miku’s vote as similar to your lacklustre push on DGB as scum? Do you still think she (or her slot, pending outcome) is scum?

--

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

Quick question – why so quick to assume Locke is Town? Couldn’t he possibly be scum of a faction different from DGB / Zoraster? Do you have reason to think we only have a single scum faction in a game this size?

--

Raivann’s 545 is classic scum play also.

Here’s my scum reads. Don’t ask for any valid reason for anyone but Thor (via Song). But hey, let’s just vote xvart who I haven’t even mentioned.

@Didden- I've actually got a town read on you. Please put you're vote somewhere better.

Can we agree on anyone?

How about Feysal?

What's you're views on xvart?

Classic scum reaction. “Don’t vote for me I have a Town read on you”.

--

@Xtoxm

– Hey look, an actual third post that finally brings a vote? Any reason for voting someone not in your scummy pile from you prior post other than blatant bandwagonning?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've read more of the thread and my opinions have changed somewhat.

Why are you calling GreyICE scum? That's part of why I voted Xvart.

Well explaining what made you change your scum reads away from your previous three would be great.

I’m calling GreyICE scum for his play.

He’s made multiple bad attacks. When called on them he drops the subject immediately as opposed to addressing said criticism / questioning.

He’s inconsisitent. He’s openly attacked players for not reading the thread yet states he doesn’t read wall-posts and certainly could be missing information.

His scum-hunting that I have seen has revolved around finding something he feels is attackable, pointing it out, and then letting the ‘they are obvscum’ rhetoric flow. I don't find this very credible.

I will fully admit his personal attacks and insults aimed at myself and others haven’t helped my perception of his motives.

But back to your vote – what other factors besides GreyICE’s ‘find’ (which I have not reviewed yet) led you to vote xvart?

--

MoI, that's not really what I said. In a nutshell, I couldn't see why you would raise Benmage, it doesn't fit my impression of your playstyle. Since then I have looked of the links a little and can see why you might want to. Plus he has looked pretty town in this game so far. It was just something that stuck on me on first read.

What's your opinion of Magua? Would you raise him?

My issue is that you already had previously stated your first read when questioning me. It doesn’t make much sense, IMO, for you to restate that read if you didn’t bother to follow up on the information you specifically requested.

I have a neutral read on Magua for reasons I’m not going to go into quite yet. Based solely on his playstyle I would support him at deadline to prevent the Hand from going unfilled (I don’t see it as negative personally) but at this stage have Benmage and several other Town reads I would support first.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not liking Zoraster's posts. They all seem geared towards an avoidance of scum hunting: the discussion of how the governor power could be used and the one about role-fishing.

Oh Really? That last one was posted less than 24 hours ago.

Sure I talked about the governor, but I was having a conversation about it due to questions being asked of me.

Anyway, I'm happy to lynch Raivann. In particular, I didn't like this post. Why should having a town read on someone mean they shouldn't vote for you? Doesn't make sense... it's trying to stop a wagon by buddying up.

VOTE: Raivann

Interesting that you choose to react to the more weakly presented version of the case Zdenek made than the one I first posted.

585 lays out quite nicely why your behavior is scummy. Feel free to use the 'ostrich head in the sand' tactic.

Let's have some more Zoraster votes everyone!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not seeing what you're talking about. Would you be so kind as to explain it?

I think Shadow has clearly demonstrated why not looking back at the source material is dangerous.

Did you go back and actually look at the original post? GreyICE may have inadverntantly edited it to look bad. GreyICE may have purposefully done so. In either case it is not a valid 'slip'.

[MagnaofIllusion]

xvart (5) Thor665, chesskid3, GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm

Add dana to the end of this wagon as he voted after this vote-count by the Mods.. I more highly suspect those appearing after GreyICE posts his ‘find’. On full review xvart was responding to diddin’s 252 directed at Magua but his post at 338 only included diddin’s statement. More likely that GreyICE didn’t go back to review the original post and thus didn’t try to ‘misquote’.

GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm, Dana

<---At least 1 scum here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yours is equally as weak, but I'm not interested in getting into another conversation on governor powers that you seem to NEED to get the last word on -- whether or not that's helpful to the town. Your question you posed is no better than mine, in fact it's one that obfuscates the issue. But sure, I'll respond to you.

Funny I NEED to get the last word in on the governor debate? Yet you go out of your way to do just that yourself.

The problem, sir, is not what side of the governor debate you fall on but that it’s a non-scum hunting exercise either way. One that you were more than happy to indulge.

I admit from page 3-14 I wasn't around. That wasn't really intentional lurking, but as I said I had a couple of games start at the same time and got more involved in the other while this one moved quickly at first.

I said you were ACTIVE lurking. Big difference. Your posts in that range were all fluffy little nuggets or unsupported vote-hopping. It's only when you were called out for such that you began posting in volume. Still not scum-hunting but still posting.

Your other comments are indicative of a lazy iso-read designed entirely to make a case. In other words, you didn't put much effort into it, you read an iso with an eye to trying to make me seem scummy. I posted my reads when I had them. I posted some with jokes, but so what? This is a game I joined for fun, and I thought the joke was appropriate.

Most of my posts, in fact, have been responses to your sophist arguments designed to "win" the argument rather than get at any actual truth.

Aha, a page from the GreyICE book – attack the accuser with negative language.

1. Firstly I didn’t ISO you to build a case. Nice of you to attempt to say it was. It’s a direct observation of your play in the game. Had I done an ISO I would have produce a nice long wall directly showing said scummy play via your own posts.
2. And I see the ‘I joined to have fun’ defense. The problem is not with posting jokes but with posting jokes in lieu of game related content.
3. Bolded for emphasis – what? You’ve had minimal direct interaction with me. Most of your post lately were aimed at MAGUA. Do you not recognize we are different players?

The truth is this: I have posted my honest reads on the subject when I've had them. I think my scum hunting has actually been quite a bit more effective than your long-winded variety.

Another example that amounts to dismissive rhetoric and in summary is basically ‘No U’.

@Everyone – I invite you to review Zoraster’s ISO for yourself. Draw your own conclusions about the honestly of his scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ Mod: can i get a dayvig plz?

Sure

Daykill: Chesskid

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't want to die at night because I have an awesome PR
that's why the VI act

Serious question Chess - have you ever been Nightkilled in a game that wasn't in Newbie / Open?

[MagnaofIllusion]

*points at chesskid's mouth*
*spreads arms wide*

The translation is, if I had to hazard a guess, is that Cow is asking for the person to explain reasons why.

Ie open your mouth wide to explain.

[MagnaofIllusion]

no that's stupid you dayvig people who are hard to lynch
and scum
like MoI

You can keep repeating with rhetoric that I'm scum as much as you want. If you would like to provide anything tangible that I can refute I'll address it.

Otherwise I'll just put this down as your standard trolling.

It should be obvious I support Vigging both Zoraster and Raivann in that order.

Truth be told I'd prefer for Cow simply take the shot himself and live with the consequences. [REDACTED] shows how well directing the vig works out and I dislike the abdication of responsability I see in Cow making the request.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah you were obvscum since a certain post
lemme see

As usual you don’t actually both to try to pretend to show why it is scummy but just hope that Appealing to Repetition works for you.

That said let’s do some timeline analysis.

The post in question you quote here is Post 426.

You call suddenly call me obvsum in post 597.

What did you do in the meantime –

LMP needs a sense of humour. >_>

Look, you posted a good 30 minutes after I made said post. This was the very next game post. You had plenty of time to read my post and comment on it’s obvscum nature. But you didn’t. Moving on,

oh crap it's thor.
SORRY THOR GOSH

Kast has a scummy avatar, and it's making me unable to read him

At 465 you make a stellar contribution that consists of simply quoting a post from Shadow. The inference is that it’s a good post. Ironic that you who joined the game saying he’s a VI suddenly move to parroting him.

I feel like everyone in this game is deliberately ignoring everything I say and it makes me sad.

give me governor then
i'm always on lol
don't know what that has to do with anything
BUT I GET AWESOME SUPAPOWERS IF I GET HAND
.......or do i? wink wink wink

Jesus christ man its like you're all figments of my imagination, and my imagination is ignoring me :/

At 542 you quote your own post 519 in further desperate attempts to draw attention.

this is why my vote never moved from him

In reference you are talking about your ‘xvart’ read here.

also can people stop ignoring the quoted post of mine?

^ good fucking posting

Referencing a Mod post

he fuck am I reading?
PL the post-restricted guy d1 for a good lynch
THE FUCK I SAY

At 573 you quote Bunnylover for some unknown reason.

scum, obv
xvart wagon is going places though

And then you finally post your suspicion at 597,

So either –

A. You let said obv post sit uncommented on for 171 posts (yes, almost 7 complete pages) or
B. You were tired of being the ignored VI and decided to start trolling to get any sort of attention. When called upon it you just grabbed something out of your ass.

Yes, I think B is what is happened.

There, your 15 minutes of Troll happiness has expired. Hope you had fun

[MagnaofIllusion]

We should vote as-is. If someone gets close to the lynch threshold, then they should be day-vigged. Then we can look at the flip and the wagon composition and go from there.

This is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately [REDACTED] is not going to end before today ends to demonstrate why. Using a claimed Dayvig as a second lynch is going to result in a rushed Vig and a rushed deadline vote. When that happened Day 1 in Clash a Town Bulletproof got lynched at deadline over Scum.

If Cow is going to shoot today he should vig who he suspects and deal with the fall-out. Thor as Dayvig in Clash got it right.

I don’t like Cow’s offering it up unbidden and I don’t like his attempt to skirt responsibility by making it a voted move.

--

If Hascow is a confirmable Dayvig with a post restriction, we have a townie for the rest of the game, unless scum really want to waste a kill on him, in which case he's spent. No offense to you, Hascow, not to make you come of as expendable, but this is win/win for town imo.

If everything you posit here is correct then assuming he can help scum-hunt effectively around the post restriction than it is a boon for Town. RichardGHP in Clash proved how a basically confirmed Townie who doesn’t scum-hunt can end up hurting Town.

--

I would support a dayvigging of Raivann or Magua.

Explain why you would dayvig Magua.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you not think we can come up with a good target with 3 days?
And/or, do you not think we can come up with a good lynch within 4 days after that (7 days total)?

Do I think we can suggest good targets in that time frame? Yes.

Do I think using voting as a mechanic to come to a consensus about who to Vig we can do it in 3 days? No way in hell. Getting anywhere close to the 13 votes necessary to normally lynch in a Large game is an undertaking.

The inherent delays involved when someone claims also sets the process back. So I'd prefer that we go back to voting for the player we want lynched and work towards the end of day as normal.

There were 9 scum in Clash of Kings. Shooting one would be nice, but hasdgfas simply shooting one does not help us *nearly* as much as seeing who wanted that person shot. Hasdgfas shooting town without any input is pretty much a complete waste of his ability and opportunity -- shooting town after being directed to gives us the information about who was on the "wagon".

I just got done arguing this exact point with someone in [REDACTED]. You get no more information out of seeing who someone wants Dayvigged than you do from seeing someone get lynched based on the way we seem to be handling it. I understand that this is a game-theory disagreement but I stand by my position.

Diddin and Bunnylover can both attest to this if necessary. Technically DGB can also.

--

I'm trying to come up with any possible scum motivation that you could be assigning to this that you don't like, and I'm completely unable to do so. So what is it that you don't like about this?

MoI: do you think Cow offering it up unbidden and getting it to be voted on is more likely to be a scum move?

I’m addressing these both at once since they are ostensibly the same question.

I don’t dislike it because it is a scum-motivated play. I dislike it because it is clearly suboptimal Town play. Thor’s play in Clash is the proper way to use a Dayvig. Again I’d point to [REDACTED] and to a lesser extent also [REDACTED] as clear evidence of why I think it’s not beneficial to Town.

Cow’s been around the block long enough to know better.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Cow

- Please confirm that Xtoxm's dead body is the result of your actions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It pretty much boils down to my initial question, and metaing the role name. Catelyn? neighbou

riser

?

I think that you need to stop going wild on this.

A Neighbor is a role that is Mod given at the start of the day to at least 2 players who can Talk in a QT and do not know each other's alignment.

A Neigbhorizer traditionally is a role that allows the player to open a Neighbor QT with a target player at Night. Thus the player gets to choose who to talk with in QT.

A Mason is similarly a Mod given role with predetermined other players, all of whom (in non-bastard games) are alignment confirmed to each other.

A Masonizer is a role that allows a player to establish a Mason QT with a player, which includes Mod confirmation of alignment. Traditionally Masonizers fail if they target scum and thus are weak cops.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m pulling together the three working lists we have to see what commonalities they might share –

Xtoxm’s list via LMP –

Townly
GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight
Chesskid
Feysal
Zoraster

Scummy
Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

DGB’s list of early Shadow wagon voters

–

Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin

My list of Post Grey’s bad tell Xvart voters

–

GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm, Dana

Commonalities found and other information

–

Players found at least two places: DTM (GreyICE), TwilightSparkle, Zoraster, Mikujin.

I already have a vote on Zoraster for other reasons and feel stronger about my suspicions based on these lists and that Zoraster was specifically in Xtoxm’s Town list.

I also think that the fact that Xtoxm has flipped scum means that Raivann and dana are less likely to be Starks. I don’t think it likely that scumbuddies would hop together so closely on the Xvart wagon. Depending on the set-up they certainly can be scum aligned with another faction if we are in multi-scum, but I don’t seem them as probable Starks.

--

Even if we don't literally vote on who to dayvig, there is merit in discussing and presenting arguments for who the target should be. It is no different from normal scumhunting really, and every stance we get before the execution happens is more information for later. I don't see a downside.

Again, I see no upside. You aren’t getting any more information out of discussing who to Dayvig than you already are in discussion who to lynch. People are free to discuss multiple scummy players regardless of whether we have a publicly disclosed Dayvig or not.

Cow taking the shot (assuming it was him) so quickly gives us time to discuss the outcome and still pursue a solid Day 1 lynch with foreknowledge that we have time to readjust come claim time, if necessary.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I have a very busy weekend planned so I am V/LA till Monday.

I may get a chance to make a post before things get started going.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings all - I'm up through page 8 and, as usual, my brain is less than amused at this stage and has ordered an all stop in order to refresh the anti-idiocy shields enough for me to wade through more later. Thus far nothing too meaty to really dig into as with so many players page 8 is not as content filled as it would be in a smaller game, that said I have the following brilliant (and 10% accurate) observations;.

Liking Locke
Liking GreyICE

These comments do not compute. At all.

First you are complaining about the idiocy you have been forced to endure in your brief read-through. Next you complain that nothing meaty exists to dig into.

Then you like those two players.

By page 8 Locke had exactly two posts. The typical RVS ISO 0 and ISO 1 where he attacks DGB for lack of scum-hunting.

1. How does his total lack of content in the first 175 posts jibe with your complaint about the lack of meaty content you were bemoaning?
2. If you respected his DGB observation why not a single mention of DGB in your post or even a vote for him?

Why do you like GreyICE? His contributions to page 8 include –

1. Attacking DGB for ‘attempting to stifle discussion’ with her stance on raising which is obviously incorrect.
2. A stupid stance on the Governor power that he later back-tracked on (first it is potentially game breaking for scum, then when he realizes you can’t self-governor it isn’t so bad).
3. Heavy use of rhetoric and pointless ‘Look at me I’m Town’ grand-standing.

What about that is anything other than indication of idiotic play? Furthermore in the first 8 pages DGB is also GreyICE’s number 1 target.

@Thor

– please specify in detail what you like about Locke and GreyICE’s Page 1 to 8 posting. Also please explain why DGB does not appear at all in your post 780 when

--

So you wait till the VI townie hammers the town doc, then you venge-lynch them and cost us the game.....Wonderful concept.

You know very well this is exactly NOT what I’m saying. CSL should have been hung Day 2 when Mina made the case on him. He skated by after being stabbed. Town should not have let that happen.

Uhhh Thor was following a Cops results....

Yes. That’s 1000 times better than offering it up under little pressure Day 1 for public inspection. That said I’m more referencing that Thor got it right by not coming out Day 1 publicly and simply waited to use the shot when it was most likely to derive positive Town results.

I’m of course not arguing results at this point.

Where's KmD to say Dayvig doesn't mean town!

See I was wanting to wait to see who argued against the concept strongly since KMD was pure scum in that game …

--

Yeah I didn't think diddin was particularly scummy. So I guess null leaning town would have been a better way to put it. The more info the better.What is scummy about that?

It’s purely scummy because you are basically buddying up to diddin. You having a ‘Town read’ on diddin should make ZERO difference to him regarding his read on you. What you basically did was say to him “Hey, others suspect you but I don’t! Don’t vote me and let’s go after someone else we can agree on since we are both Town”.

--

@MagnaofIllusion: I've been meaning to ask you about something. How come you attacked GreyICE for accusing you of IIoA early on D1, but never responded to this post of mine?

It rang a small bell for me at the time when you attacked an easier target with a more controversial playstyle but left me alone. Maybe it's because despite GreyICE's rhetorical skills sucking, he rang as so genuinely town from our POV, so I disliked you hammering to him to death.

I didn’t address it because quite honestly I didn’t even see it since you followed so quickly on the heels another Twilight post. In looking at that post are taking the soft tactic that I’ve noticed Sotty-head also taking – swiping at me with accusations that are meant to undermine but not outright directly call scummy. That’s a scum tactic – I should know I used it on Benmage in Clash myself (and he rightfully called me on it but didn’t really pursue it). I obviously disagree with your conclusions as I did with GreyICE. The difference is that he kept throwing crap any which way while you said nothing further.

@Twilight Mina (when you get back)

- Why did you let that slide for 700 or so posts before bringing it up again?

But back to your earlier assertion – you intimate that GreyICE is an easy target. Did you find him to be a VI? Are you attempting to say I wouldn’t attack your slot for scummy-behavior simply because of it’s make-up of Hito, you and Sotty?

--

The Zoraster case I'm not really seeing.
I understand why MoI is voting for him, but thats not why others are voting for him.

Again, these two lines do not compute.

Bunny please explain your thinking here. If you don’t see a Zoraster case how can it make sense that I am voting for him? That’s contradictory.

Either you see the case I have laid out and think it make sense for me to be voting him (thus you see the case) or you don’t see any valid case on him and thus my voting for him doesn’t make sense.

The Zoraster FOS buddy - Vote Townie is nice. Frankly I would rather lynch Raivann (the FOS buddy) which upon flip of a scum result will prove (or at least strenght) the fact that Zoraster was in fact doing that.
Lynching Zoraster really doesn't dissolve Raivann status.

Um what? Implicit in your agreenment that Zoraster is possibly pulling the ‘Vote: Town, FOS: Partner’ play is the fact that you MUST think Zoraster is scum. If you think Raivann is scum and am unsure of Zoraster it doesn’t make sense to make the link in the reverse direction. It is not a bi-directional tell.

@Bunny

– Do you think we are in a multi-scum environment? Please answer in your next post.

--

I agree with this.

Why do you agree with Bunny’s stance? As I stated above that’s not a bi-direction scum-tell, at least in my mind.


--

I am sad that Zoraster has been on-site to post in other games, but hasn't posted here.

I am sad that every single one of Twilight Sparkle's heads have been on-site, two of the three posting in other games, but haven't posted here.

I have to agree that with others who have stated that these statements are suspect / scummy. Magua’s later attempts to say that they are not statements made specifically to show suspicion but just general statement doesn’t stand up to logical scrutiny.

@Magua

– I see your explanations at 783 and 788 and I don’t buy it them. I also really think you little High Horse act in 800 is bad. I’m guessing there are any number of players who might fit this pattern if we looked into posting records from when you brought this up. You in 780 essentially fluffed.

To borrow your little bar:

[Town]------LynchMePls-----Kast--DGB-[* Benmage * ]-Raivann-Zdenek-----------------[Scum]

Quick question for you - why did you you specifically exclude me from your Town to Scum list when you responded to Zoraster?

--

@Zoraster

– The following were responses you made to Magua, but I am specifically addressing them. I wanted there to be no confusion.

2.

I missed cow claiming payne. I think it's pretty easy to do when his only confirmation is a smiley face.

I thought it might be helpful to place the claim, which was being heavily doubted, firmly in the context of the books, but clearly that was not.

Anyway, assuming you're right and I was just trying to be helpful without having read the thread, do you think this makes me scummy or just inattentive?

Emphasis added.

The first bolded portion is quite frankly crap. I have ZERO flavour knowledge of the series and I was easily able to pick up that Cow acknowledged that he was claiming Ilynn Payne (or however it is spelled) despite his use of smilies.

The second bolded portion in my mind is clear – you are scummy. Town players have no reason to pretend to be ‘helpful’.

4. So? I got you mixed up and that changed how I felt. I wasn't sure how until I reviewed it.

Where did you explain where you review process and changed opinion happened? After I rebut your defense and point out that you mixed up the two of us your response is “Oops” and that’s it. In my mind that’s further evidence of your scummy behavior.

You concocted a ‘defense’ that was mostly an attempt to do so by being dismissive about how I came to my conclusions, not attacking the elements of why I drew that conclusion. When I pointed out a large part of your dismissal revolved around attacking me with the actions of another player you just dropped it.

--

Of the two leading wagons, I am still not really seeing the zoraster case. Sure, he's said scummy things, but he's done more scumhunting than Raivann. Sure, he was over defensive when he was accused of rolefishing, but other than that, the only other reasons I've seen are him not raising-I and six others aren't raising. It's not scummy. The other thing was him posting elsewhere. If he had been doing it for weeks at an end, then yeah, it's a problem. He isn't. It's a null tell.

1. You clearly aren’t reading closely since I’ve posted a case that includes more than ‘role-fishing’ and not raising.
2. Marking this relational tell down for later – if Zoraster does turn out to not be scum (which I doubt) Nexus likely is.

To some degree number 2 should also apply to Danakillsu since he is making similar statements.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE PAYING ATTENTION –

Deadline is in approximately 3 days.

We don’t have much time to be messing around with singleton / doubleton cute votes for either lynch or Hand raise.

The following players need to get their votes to somewhere it might be effective as deadline approaches –

Lynch

- DTMaster, Shadow, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin, Chesskid, Cow

Raise

– Locke, Dana, chesskid, Twilight Sparkle, Nexus, Ghostlin, Zoraster, DGB, Kast, Shadow.

@MOD – you still have Percy listed instead of Ghostlin in the Raise Counts.

--

Of all the things I strive for,

consistency is not high on the list

. I found Zoraster scummy. I wanted to see his response to what was going on. By the end of the day (when I posted), he still had not responded, and I was annoyed. Hence, the post.

The bolded explains why I don’t have a read on you that’s Town.

If you are Town and don’t think consistency in stances and opinions is important you are playing suboptimally.

If you are Scum I can’t fault you. Scum don’t want consistency. Cognitive Dissonance is how many scum get caught.

--

Why? I mean, I know there's chainsaw defending, and I'm aware of making scum making connections to a townie in an attempt to make them more town seeming. But this relatonal tell seems to be based on this assumption that first of all that scum would be trying to make this on a townie, when scum could be defending other scum, or a townie doesn't like the most prominent points of your case.

It’s not chainsawing as much as having a read that believes what is being said.

Read that post by Nexus again. He’s going out of his way to say that Zoraster is being scummy but he’d rather see Raivann lynched. Zoraster is the clear leader at this juncture. Note how Nexus looks to explain away scummy behavior by Zoraster in a soft manner.

It’s a fairly well known tactic for scum to push against a popular lynch when they know the target is Town. In this case he’s pushing very softly but is still ‘pushing’.

Also, you sort of post text walls, which make people naturally pick and choose what they read, skim for comprehension. I don't find that scummy, necessarly, but people.

Um, what? I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are asking me to change my posting style don’t expect that to happen anytime soon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That

comment about text walls was in reference to

this

:

2.

1. You clearly aren’t reading closely since I’ve posted a case that includes more than ‘role-fishing’ and not raising.

I'm making the point that I had to go through 32 pages of posts to get my reads. I tried to read as thoroughly as possible, but I admit I didn't read it all in detail nor would I be able to regurigate it on command. You don't have to change your posting style, however, it is entirely possible they could of missed your other reasoning in one of your longer posts. Can you summarize the crux of the case you posted? That way there's no excuse on what was and wasn't read.

I see ... since I directed the quoted comment at Nexus who has been here I now get the basis of your response.

If I get time later I will go back and summarize my Zoraster case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can get behind a cow raise.

Raise: Hascow

You also need to get behind a lynch that has a prayer of succeeding. DTM is not getting strung up today, sadly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't see the reason for raising

anyone

over someone

confirmed

. I could have raised sooner sure, but I didn't. Still makes a ton more sense than raising benmage.

I understand the surface level of appeal of this but you need to think deeper on why not raising confirmed Non-Stark Cow might be a wise move.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It confirms we're not giving it to starks. What more is there to consider? Cow has a post restriction? Doesn't mean he can't take direction. Worried he won't listen? Anyone could not listen, or could use the power in the same exact capacity.

If scum want to waste a NK on a confirmed target who is a spent vig with a post restriction, well, Lannister wins that bet too.

The bolded portion means you at least understand where I am going. Keep walking down that path and considering the implications ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol no...the governor is a weaksauce ability. But why have a non stark and the Hand killed with one blow? Thats what MoI is saying.

MoI its easier to s.p.e.l.l. things out sometimes.

Thank god someone is paying attention ....

I hate having to play nurse-maid. This isn't a Newbie game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

direct all vig shots aimed my way at MoI btw
if he flips town i'll post a really contrite apology
i'm a joke

FTFY

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just quickly mulling over the claim ...

1. I find it hard to believe that Locke drew the exact same role two games in a row (Clash and this game).
2. Claiming Town Neighborizor after a Scum Neighborizor already flipped - I need to mull that over.
3. I'nm guessing that Zoraster and perhaps Locke are both not Town aligned ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

DTM

is doing a great job of ducking any sort of heat his slot may have been getting by lurking out the day. Great work DTM. I’m guessing almost everyone else will have forgotten GreyICE’s continual bad attacks and back-tracking by Daybreak tomorrow.

--

Twilight-Hito’s ‘ISO Spectacular’ posts don’t do anything to convince me that they are actually scum-hunting. Case in point –

In his ISO 18, he switches from ASOIAF (now Thor) to xvart. He does so sheeping GreyICE. I have a town read on GreyICE (now DTM) so this is somewhat understandable.

This ISO read of Raivann the piggy-backs off GreyICE's 'scum-hunting' ignores that GreyICE’s point on xvart was complete bullshit. Doing straight ISO reads glossed over this fact that a straight reading of the thread would have clearly demonstrated.

@Twilight Hito –

does your GreyICE Town read come from his ISO or actually reading him in context

--

I'm... not sure what you're saying at all in this, and I'm not sure what peoples' confidence in you is.

Benmage is saying that scum don’t want any part of the Hand power. It puts them in the spotlight regardless of whether they use the power or not. Percy really didn’t want any part of it in Clash but couldn’t reject the power without drawing suspicion.

He’s also outright suggesting that Twilight is scum

At this point, it would seem to me we test his claim, rather than lynching him.

How exactly do you want to test his claim? We’ve already determined that a Neighborizor can clearly be scum / 3rd Party. Proving he has that power doesn’t show his alignment in the least.

What do you think of the duplication of powers he’s claiming (same as xtoxm’s) in conjunction with his claim regarding only conditionally winning with Town?

--

@Bunnylover

– Your conclusions at 847 don’t make any sense. Specifically these two

If we lynch Raivann and he flips town, what happens to Zoraster? The theory of FOS Buddy - Vote Townie is

thrown out the window and scum now have to come up with another mislynch.

If we lynch Zoraster and he flips town, what happens to Raivann? Raivann still will be lynched because his post have been bad and scummy (I think one has been good). Isn't that right?

You earlier were arguing for a bi-directional scum tell. Now you are saying that Zoraster flipping scum doesn’t absolve Raivann but Raivann flipping scum absolves Zoraster?

Also, as previously noted, the bolded portion looks like some sort of inside information that slipped right out.

@MOI: The reason you are voting Zoraster is not the reason others are voting him. The reason others are voting him, you have said only strengthening your read/vote on him.

How do you know exactly the full motivation for every voter on the wagon again? Why are you ruling out the possibility others have seen the case I presented and find it credible as the reason for their vote?

Nothing has given us reason to believe their are multiple scum groups, so no. But if in the book their were different enemies family fighting in their, then I believe we should believe that their is multiple scum groups.
But No, I don't believe their are.

This isn’t an open set-up. What information do you expect to see? You just came off Gorrad’s Large which had multiple teams. Clash had multiple team. Some Larges do have one Mafia group but I would guess more than 60% have more than one. Why so quick to dismiss the possibility on Day 1 before we have any evidence?

VIGS

– Bunnylover should join Chess on your “Great Shooting Tex” list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP - 907 should have said the following -

You earlier were arguing for a bi-directional scum tell. Now you are saying that Zoraster flipping

TOWN

doesn’t absolve Raivann but Raivann flipping

TOWN

absolves Zoraster?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ Magua - we're not raising a scumbaggo today.

Un whut? You don't want to select a scum-bag to Strip of their Vote, and Night Powers, and access to their Scum QT???

What the hell kind of crazy juice are you drinking DGB?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just a quick note regarding the Nomination to Envoy since there seems to be confusion – you should be Nominating a secondary scum read for that position. A top scum read should be lynched. I also want to say the following – if you are a Lannister PR who ends up being under a Nomination Wagon DO NOT CLAIM for that wagon. Lynch wagons are certainly worthy of claiming to avoid but a one-night limit to your powers is not worth outing yourself as a target to the Starks.

To that end I’d also suggest that we are probably in a one-Mafia group environment based on the lack of death flavor (althought I want to check that it wasn’t an oversight). So I’m expecting that we either have a Vig or a SK wanting to appear Pro-Town based on diddin’s death. In either case I think that determination can be made down the line after we put a few more Starks in the ground.

@MOD – was the lack of specific kill flavor intentional?

--

After night results and upon review of yesterday’s play my top suspects are Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, DTM, and Nexus. I also have some concerns about Thor and Raivann. Thor has open items from my ISO 38 to address. Raivann’s play has been bad but I don’t see him as a Stark at all.

VOTE: Twilight Sparkle

Nominate Bunnylover

--

Updated Lists

Townly
GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight

Chesskid

Feysal

Zoraster

Scummy
Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

Hasdgfas

,

zoraster

, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin

GreyICE, Raivann,

Xtoxm

, Dana

--

Hi all, just checking in quickly to say I am V/LA until Sunday night.

Locke, I’ll be frank. Your play Day 1 was all kinds of suspicious for you. I’d have you on my hit list if it were not for Zoraster’s claim and eventual flip. I’m suggesting you not pull a RichardGHP this game. I want to see you make an impact today. Sound fair? Good.

--

@ Magua
Your vote and raise should be switched

Aside from the fact that you had a mix-up with the Nomination process you are wrong. Go read Twilight Sparkle again. A Hydra composed of Hito, Mina and Sotty should have had a much more Pro-Town Day 1 if they are Lannister aligned.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll repeat since it was missed –

@MOD – was the lack of specific kill flavor intentional?

--

I find it hard to believe that both DGB and danakillsu, who both played in Clash, misinterpreted how the Nominate Process worked. It is essentially a carbon copy of the Day 2 Mob Action from Clash without the annoying 48 hour lockdown of the thread.

--

Most of you have said she's consistently been playing a bad game; I still think there's a chance she's scummy. Let's make her the envoy and minimize the damage the player can do: if she's scum, we've deprived her of a chance to talk to her buddies,

if she's town, then maybe we can get something out of the deal that's not a bunch of sheep votes.

Dislike this. You should only be Nominating someone you feel is scum, not a player who you only think there is ‘a chance’ that they are scum. Furthermore please explain what you mean regarding the bolded.

--

One of Twilight Sparkle and Mikujin are scum. I put my money on Mikujin.

Is this drawn from their close proximity on the Shadow wagon? I just want to be sure because I understand that thought process but the TS / Muki interactions look like very much like soft distancing looking at Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What possible motivation could either of us have for lying about not realizing that?

The point is not that you are lying about the realization. The point is that you both appear to be paying minimal attention to the thread. It was blatantly clear how the Nomination process worked and furthermore since it is a near carbon copy of Clash you should have recognized it easily.

But neither of you did. In general I believe scum have less motivation to pay close attention to the thread. Thus my suspicion.

--

Answering Day 1 blather

Nice implicit assertion that questions directed to you aren’t worthy …

I said there wasn't anything "too meaty" which is different from lack of anything meaty by quite a bit - and if you're going to be so seriously pedantic in taking in my comments I'm shocked you would overlook that. What is wrong with drawing conclusions when I don't think there has been anything really impressive - there is *nothing* that does not compute there.

So your defense is that by using a subjective modifier (what exactly is the line between too meaty and meaty?) it should be clear exactly your thoughts? You’ve called me pedantic but splitting hairs verbally is likewise suspect.

Eh, I guess I didn't like DGB's early play, but it's frakkin' DGB and it's hard to get a solid read off her in my opinion. Considering her odd cult celebrity perhaps I instinctively reacted positively to anyone with the melons to call her out on her actions - but that's as much self-reflection as I really have on it.

What about DGB’s play didn’t you like? Also if it was Town for GreyICE to mix it up with DGB regardless of how poorly reasoned the attack was, what does it say about you that you are claiming suspicion but didn’t want to go after DGB?

Is there more to the Sparkle case than this? Because though this isn't exactly posh, it's not exactly top case of the day material either - usually you like thicker walls.

I still haven't read any of pages 9-whenever my first wall post was, though I've read up after it.

I suggest you catch up with pages 9-Z and then decide if you need to see more on cases.

--

Oh, I'm pretty sure Raviann's scum. I wouldn't have voted for him most of Day 1 (well, the part of it I was here) if I wasn't pretty sure. Unless I was scum (or certain power roles) though, I wouldn't be 100% sure of scum/town, right? Do you know with certainity of who's scum/town?

In this case we either isolate a suboptimal player for town that might not make it to lynch today either way: in essence get a weaker lynch against another player who is at the least playing antitown that arouses suspicion. You can dislike the fact that I didn't call Raviann a scummy scumtard all you like: I feel at the moment BL's as bad or as worse at him; hence the placement of both my vote/nomination.

Of course not. Your post smacked of mild fence-sitting and thus my comment.

Would it be safe, based on this response, for me to think that Raivann would be an acceptable possible lynch for you if Bunnylover was dead then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MODs – I’ll be V/LA from pretty much now until Monday morning for my normal weekend V/LA.

--

The only way you could attack me on this was either verbally splitting hairs or misinterpreting/representing what I actually said. You don't get to toss the defense back in my face for pointing out that I didn't say what you said I said. I can't defend something I didn't say.

Incorrect. I’m attacking you for taking stances that aren’t logically consistent in that post.

1. You complain about lack of meaty content to comment on.
2. You say you like Locke’s play, but he had two posts by page 8 consists solely of a RVS vote and a small comment on DGB based on loose meta. He certainly didn’t provide any ‘meaty content’ by that point.
3. You say you like Grey’s play despite his back-tracking and arguments that were repeatedly proven wrong or misguided.
4. You don’t comment at all about DGB despite him being the focus of your two Town reads above.

I don’t see the Town motivation for you to dislike DGB’s play but be afraid to voice your own opinion on it. It looks like you are happy to let others do the dirty work for you in that regard based on the difficulty of attacking DGB that you later state. Futhermore I find your explanation for your Town reads on those players to be lacking.

Until then - your current stated case as I am aware of it, is really weak. "They aren't townie enough" That's not a case.

Never said it was a case. You are the only one attempting to assert it is. My interactions and obeservations made Day with and about Twilight Sparkle are the base of my vote.

--

I would certainly like to believe that diddin was a vig kill, but at this point, given the information we have, it doesn't matter. Some faction other than the Starks killed a Stark, which is good for us. Save the multi-mafia/SK/vig speculation for when we have more information about the nightkills -- D3 or D4.

A good summary of why speculation at this point isn’t really worth the time.

--

Next someone will talk they’re way out of being tracked to a dead guy. FML.

Not likely since the two times we have seen it happen in joint games both players have been scum (ReaperCharlie in Supernatural and Maclock in Clash).

--

MoI - what is the color coding in your 973? I would think that hascow would be more likely town at this point based on the dayvig result. And what does blue mean?

Xvart have you been drinking? I ask because it isn’t exactly top level Cryptography going in in 973. The colors tie to the mod provided flip colors.

Red - Lannister
Blue – Stark
Green – Third Party

I mark Cow Red because he’s not Stark and unlikely to be third party giving up a kill to public scrutiny so easy Day 1. If the time comes we get evidence of another faction he goes back to basic black. For the reasons I have stated I’m doubting said faction exists.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Will be making a post later today ... work has me tied in knots right now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Thor

– we can play this back and forth game as much as you want. I find myself agreeing with Locke who stated it isn’t productive to continue until you have caught up.

In summary – I don’t find your stated reasons for your reads on Locke and DTM very credible in light of your statements made at catch-up. Furthermore that you didn’t voice any direct suspicion of DGB despite later stating you found him suspicious. Lastly your dismissive and hostile attitude doesn’t strike me as indicative of Town Thor I have seen previously. Furthermore given your experience with Chesskid in Return To Liten, where he read 5 pages and quit, should have been direct warning of how mis-informed limited reads can be.

That said –

I expect MoI to be more townie then his weak attacks on me have been.

Hello double standards. Didn’t you just claim my thought that I expected TS to be a stronger Town force as Lannister aligned wasn’t compelling?

I personally think my scum meta speaks for itself in this regard.

Being aware of your scum ‘meta’ means any attempt to use it to show why you aren’t scum is useless.

--

Short Summarized Version of my Twilight Sparkle suspicion

–

My suspicion begins with the Shadow vote. It appeared as a simple early bandwagon vote but when questioned on it TS attempts to justify it by saying that inexperienced scum tend to be argumentative and aggrevating on purpose. That explanation doesn’t make sense and the justification is defense beyond what was necessary at that juncture.

Soon after the vote Shadow completely disappears form TS’s ISO. No follow-up questioning of anything Shadow says or any other sorts of interactions.

TS expressed some concern that myself, DGB and dana are all scummy in ISO 7 but doesn’t move to vote any of those players while letting the vote languish on Shadow.

ISO 13 further questions DGB about mis-repping something GreyICE said. Again, no vote.

ISO 16 – the vote finally comes of Shadow with the explanation that Shadow ‘picked up Town points’. In the same post she votes Thor (then ASOIAF) for the following reason.

You don't know what a VI means, so what exactly did you like about the posts of someone most just recommending we policy lynch them? Rav points this out in 209; I am similarly confused.

The post in question by ASOIAF was on page 9. By this point Benmage has at least 20 posts and they certainly don’t all revolve around policy lynching. It’s a misrepresentation to say that ASOIAF liking Benmage’s multiple posts means she must support policy lynches on VIs and not knowing what one is means she’s contradictory.

Again, a bad justification to move a vote. Especially since, as had already been said, the post in question you could certainly attack for being very agreeable / non-confrontational which can be expected from newer players as scum.

I very much dislike the Sotty-head’s questioning of my Benmage raise. It feels very much like probing / nitpicking looking for any justification for suspicion. Furthermore the back-peddling done when I questioned why she didn’t actually read the links provided before stating her opinion doesn’t reflect well on the whole line of questioning, IMO.

I’m not overly impressed with the ISO spectacular catch-up posts – there is lots of careful positioning language in those posts (example – Locke is pretty much confirmed Town but could be a Serial Killer) that I see as high level and well disguised fence-sitting. I also find the “MoI is the Anti-Spyrex” explanation that hito finds my playstyle inherently scummy as a possible way for the hydra to move off the suspicion that Sotty and Mina have indicated.

TL : DR

– I’m happy with my vote.

--

MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

Hasn’t changed. The potential for playing for Town ‘cred’ by questioning a Non-Mafia popular wagon before the flip still stands. It simply didn’t work out, if it was the intention, since Zoraster ended up being a 3rd Party.

--

I second the suspicion regarding

DGB

revolving around post 1034. That doesn’t seem like a logical chain of thought to have labelled Locke as a good scum candidate after the Zoraster flip and simply back off it when questioned about it.

--

Yeah, if I bold certain parts that someone said, I can make it into a scummy thing. If a person had said "I am" in an ass long paragraph and also used the word "scum" later in it, if I bold them do I get points for catching a slip? No. because I excluded everything before, after, and in between those words and I'm not reading the context.

Magua didn’t do that. He pointed out two complete sentances that were contradictory in your statements. Just because the whole sentances are separated in your statement doesn’t mean that they can’t contradict each other.

--

Why don't you answer my question first? Something to hide?

I also said earlier I didn't do town lists. I'll indulge you this once.

Hascow
Myself
Leaning towards Locke and DGB as well.

You're up there too.

While we are on the subject of Cognitive Dissonance I give you’re the bolded.

The first sentence clearly infers that Nexus has reason to be suspicious of Ben. Yet the second outright states he’s near the top of Nexus’es Town list.

Additionally as a whole this post reads as buddying very similar to what diddin was doing with me earlier, with just a touch of undermining at the beginning.

--

Can cow daykill again?

What Pro-Town reason do you have for asking, other than to make sure you aren’t on the chopping block? Keeping the possibility of further shots obscure helps Town as it withholds information from scum.

--

Uh oh. Somebody either got overexcited or scumslipped. Last game, when I was scum, WE DIDN'T HAVE DAYTALK. I'm pretty sure everybody could have known that. Do you have reason to believe any different for this game, Benmage?

Yes, I agree that there was some overexcited reaching going on, but it was here not in Benmage’s post.

Benmage was clearly showing Thor’s play from ANOTHER GAME where scum had Daytalk. No attempt at all was made to say that I exists here.

Why attempt to characterize that post as a scum slip?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Xvart- You're questions have become tiresome and boring.

You may dislike being asked repeatedly to justify your position but you’ve never clearly answered about your initial ASOIAF vote. Chronology once again –

At ISO 6 you vote ASOIAF with no support. It is simply a vote only post.

At ISO 7 you question ASOIAF over liking Benmage’s posts and whether she agreed with his VI policy lynch stance. This is the ONLY element of the post you question.

At ISO 8 you ask me to comment on ASOAIF. After that I give my thought that her post was agreeable to a fault and could be indicative of Newb scum.

At ISO 9 – Suddenly you address the whole post of ASOAIF. Now suddenly it is in your words “too agreeable and nice too”. That’s a clear piggy-back off of my response.

Also, despite your dislike of questions I’m going to AGAIN ask you to answer the following one –

What Pro-Town reason do you have for asking, other than to make sure you aren’t on the chopping block? Keeping the possibility of further shots obscure helps Town as it withholds information from scum.

The this you were asking, of course, had to do with whether Cow had further Day Vig shots.

--

And I know diddin knows this because

in CoK I was on a team with diddin

and I pushed hard on danakillsu D1 (accidentally) and when dana flipped Lannister the next day I was given a lot of not-Lannister cred because of that push.

Please explain the bolded again. Diddin was Town (Sandor Clegane) in that game. Your teammates were Maclock, danakillsu, and I doubt it.

At the time I wasn't ruling out either as scum, but now that I realized I missed a post by Ghostlin (which made the subsequent posts I referenced make more sense) I think it is likely that Ghostlin is town. I think bunnylover is scum.

If you think Ghostlin is Town why is your vote still on him as of this post?

--

I'm not sure if I should be combing through ISOs looking for connections to diddin, or answering every single point that anyone has made against us.

If you were Town you know the answer and showed that you do in Clash – you would be scum-hunting. I absolutely refused to give you the “Mina is waffling” pass. You are too good a player to get away with it any longer here on MS.

However, the next person who says, "A Sotty, Mina, and hitogoroshi hydra would be MUCH more protown than this" gets throttled through their computer screen.

Please give me your thoughts on Thor then. He’s argued against that argument in relation to your slot but used it to back up his defense against my suspicions himself.

It is fucking unfair to penalize them because my name is in the sig, under the logic that three non-VIs > two > one.

It is also unfair to expect three experienced players to have more trouble keeping up with a thread than single players, some of whom are not experienced. I understand outside circumstances affect this (Sotty being sick, your V/LA) but hito had admittedly neglected this game for [REDACTED].

The ironic thing is that I personally would have been bolder in moving my vote had I actually BEEN scum, because I could confidently push any logical-sounding case without worrying if it contradicted my other heads' reads.

Self provided scum meta isn’t useful and you know it.

So all the lazy paranoia over Sotty-hito-Mina being scummy for not being the towniest player in the game is really getting on my nerves. hito put a shitload of effort into his ISO extravaganza posts while two of us were away, and I feel terrible for him that people are reading them with scum-coloured glasses.

You know very well that Effort does not equal Alignment. It bit you in the ass in Clash regarding me. I’ve already expressed my reservations with the actual content of the ISO spectacular.

For the record, the most likely scum on my wagon is Zdenek (will explain more in another post), but I see-saw back and forth on Magna because the towntells and the scumtells counterbalance each other. (And yes, I have been probing you to see what turns up, because that's what townies do to players they're unsure of; hell, 90% of my town game is asking random people questions. What happened to treating every player who BUDDIED you as a scumtell?)

Please indicate who is buddying me that I haven’t called on that fact. This falls into the further category of soft attacks.

Furthermore I understand clearly that Townies probe players whose alignment they are unsure of. I do it myself and find it funny you think you need to lecture me on that point. What I have problems with is the manner in which your slot (Sotty mainly, and to some degree both you and hito) has gone about said probing. It strikes me as not honest scum-hunting. Thus my comments.
--

Scum are less likely to realize that scum would not kill members of their own faction.

You are trying to frame the issue in the incorrect direction. You’re scummy for pre-emptively answering a question aimed at another player in an attempt to gain “Town Cred” with your response.

Why would I need a case?

Because you just stating things without support isn’t credible given the general scum-read many players have on you.

It wasn't a true argument, it was just random trolling, and I'm of the mindset (apparently the only one) that scum are more primed to be unhelpful to the town and thus more likely to troll.

Yes you probably are the only one of that mind-set because fundamentally it makes ZERO sense. Scum generally don’t want to stand out they want to blend it, especially less experienced scum who don’t have a meta repository to fall back on like other ‘outrageous’ players.

They didn't all support policy lynches, but that is his main stand. Take out the policy lynching and there isn't much to Ben at that point; certainly not enough to explain liking his posts. The contradiction isn't that she must support policy lynches on VI's; the contradiction is that missing that information, she shouldn't have found Benmage to be townie and raise-worthy.

I disagree. There is plenty of other discussion and questioning going on in his ISO than just strictly policy lynch material.

It's not fence sitting, it's lack of omniscience. Locke is pretty much confirmed town, although he could be a serial killer. We'll be able to make a better judgement as the game goes on. Do you think differently?

No I think that’s a valid assessment regarding Locke. But it more or less goes without saying. Unless someone challenges you on a changed Locke read Day 1 to Day 2 there isn’t any reason to state what I consider to be the obvious. Which is why I find your catch-up suspect. Your slot is under pressure. What’s a common misconception – that trying hard means you are Town. You made a large, all encompassing post with many reads that didn’t say anything out of the ordinary and picked three fairly popular / easy targets as your scum reads. Is it possible that’s a Town post? Sure, but just as possible in my eyes it could be a Scum post trying to buy cred with volume.

I said that I'm mostly deferring the read of you to those two. If you think that it was the first act of a drifting away from the stated suspicion, why the hell didn't you wait to see what Sotty/Mina posted?

1. I never said it was the first act of distancing. That’s a nice little mis-rep there. I also attack Sotty for similar behavior when she eventually backtracked on her “Benmage raise doesn’t make sense” line of attack.
2. The issue is that your “MoI always reads as scummy” stance looks manufactured. You didn’t address it very significantly at all Day 1 in a way I find meaningful, which I would have expected if I were obv-scum for my playstyle. All I got from you was a little lecture about playing nice with GreyICE.

--

B. Feysal is playing like Feysal scum to me. His focus on Raivann in particular, but his play yesterday in regards to diddin as well.

Elaborate on what makes up Feysal-scum to your meta eyes. I have some limited ideas but I know you have much more direct experience than I do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He's playing like Feysal-scum from Return to Liten. I have off-site experience with Feysal, but to my recollection he was town in all the games I played with him off site. His play here is too... disengaged (for lack of a better word).

This is why I asked. Because Feysal Scum from Liten clearly lurked and I’m seeing signs of that in [REDACTED] also. I was hoping your off-site experience with him would provide more meat to the meta.

Also LMP – regarding the One scum team theory I can definitely see it being suspicious being leaked Day 1. That said do you not think, based on the data that we have (3rd party lyncher role, two kills, no distinguishing flavour in the kills) that it looks more likely in the light of Day 2 that there is a single Mafia group?

Because players other than Feysal (including myself) have espoused it today.

That said I think Feysal is a very appealing NK target for a Vig or any SK wanting Town cred.

--

If this is your only case/defense on anyone, maybe you should try harder? Seriously, playing the 'someone didn't downgrade their suspicions of me when I'm cleared' isn't a town sentiment.

DGB, I've read you in ISO and played with you. You're better than this. Play harder.

Which is it? Locke’s been very forward (if not overwhelming with case presentation) that DGB isn’t playing up to snuff. And I would agree that I find his ‘mistakes’ today (not adjusting his thought process on Locke despite the flavor until prompted directly, his inability to comprehend how the Nomination process worked despite being in Clash) pretty bad. You seem to agree in your second sentence.

--

And here I thought answering questions aimed at other players was scummy...

Aha, love the sarcasm. That said there is a difference between LMP asking a direct question of Feysal and you jumping right in with your ‘assumptions’ and my addressing a response that reads as purely rhetorical you made to a danakillsu direct question. Had I answered dana’s question for you it would be an Apples to Apples comparison.

You're missing my point. What I'm saying is, you said that you suspected my stance was to back away from Sotty/Mina's stated suspicion. But obviously, you can't know whether or not that's true until Sotty/Mina actually post (since what I said was that I was delegating the reading of you to them). Surely it would be better to keep that idea under your hat until Mina or Sotty confirm or deny your suspicions?

No, because I’m not going to let your post disappear into the depths of a Large Theme thread while we waited on your erstwhile companions. You three are a single slot – I’m not obligated to not address what I see as inconsistencies or play made by one with potential scum motivation just because you are ‘deferring’ your read to the others.

Maclock and VP made quite a bit of hay in Clash by using the dividing up their interactions and using alternating views to distance from bad positions. They were scum, for the record.

What's to address? You're a player that I don't think I can read accurately, so I refrained from weighing in on you and left that task to Mina and Sotty. The only reason I brought it up in thread at all is because I wanted to give my spiel on everyone, and Mina and Sotty's reads were both pretty stale at that point.

What’s to address? If you have a scum read on a player you should address it. That’s Mafia 101. And your original statement clearly stated you had a scum read on me since my playstyle dictates I look like scum regardless to you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Looking at the player list DTM and Kast really need to pick-up their contributions to the thread.

--

LMP, are you claiming SK?

I doubt it. He’s claiming a killing role. If he is a SK outing himself like that would be very foolish, and border on not playing to win, IMO.

--

@Twilight Sparkle

– If you haven’t already please answer the following question posed by Zdenek –

Why would Kast cease to be scummy if there is more than one scum team?

In other TS posting –

If you're curious, the specific thing that pinged my gut was the Lite-Brite comment (well, that whole argument, but that's a handy keyword for it) to GreyICE.

I think that anyone who haughtily refuses requests to be more readable is very likely scum

. But from what I've seen of you, you'd do that regardless of alignment.

Bolded for emphasis – that’s bullshit. My posts are no less readable than any other players who post in dense style, several of which are in this game. I don’t request that you stop flooding the thread with My Little Pony pics or didn’t request GreyICE stop any Caps Lawk activity. I don’t find those make posts more readable myself.

As for the Lite-Brite comment – GreyICE was quite frankly being a loudmouth prick. As I stated before I tend to respond to players like that in-kind. If you think that is scummy that’s your choice.

We think Thor has a very large chance of flipping scum, we think Raivann has a fairly large chance of flipping scum, and a scumflip on one virtually confirms the other as town. There's no contradiction here.

Why does it confirm the other as Town? Wouldn’t it confirm the other as “Not Stark / Whatever faction the first flips” aligned? That doesn’t make sense to me.

--

@MoI- Ok fine I'll answer your disingenuous question- No, I wasn't scared. I wanting to know and maybe put in my 2 cents.

I never said you were scared so why are you making a point that I suggest you were. I specficially was showing how your reads appear borrowed and fake. Hint – questioning your play isn’t being disingenuous.

--

@MOI: Also, why is Feysal better for a vig than lynching? We have pretty clear meta and in game behavioral reasons to think he is scum. While I certainly sympathize with the TS wagon, why is it so much better than Feysal?

From the standpoint of the information available before you dropped your ‘Info’ bomb just now I have thought that TS (and Thor and Nexus and Bunnylover) have been more suspicious than Feysal directly. I’m never going to directly press a lynch driven mostly by Meta (strong as it might be) over in-game scum play. Of course now I am going to have to re-evaluated Feysal’s statements in context of your info.

I will say it is suspect that Feysal suddenly springs to life and starts posting right after his scum-meta is voiced.

STARKS DIDN'T KILL CHESSKID, I DID. Discuss.

I pray to God you know what you are doing. That said the concept of a Serial Killer or second Mafia group looks to be more probable if you are claiming Town aligned killer and diddin not being your kill.

--

I wouldn't know, I've never read the books.

Supplementing your theory with skimmed knowledge from a wiki with no direct source material knowledge is pretty bad play, IMO.

Of course. Who else? Unless you're suggesting we had a lucky doctor or role blocker, the Starks must have killed Chesskid. My theory is that they thought he was Tywin, and killed him thinking he would be a power role.

My question about your thoughts – they all sprung from one of Raivann’s WIFOM “Why was Chesskid killed” posts. If your suspicion of Raivann of scum is so high why would you answer his post directly as opposed to questioning his possible scum motivation for bringing up the Nightkill speculation?

The last person I saw making this argument was town, and also wrong. He went on to mislynch the player accused of undermining an obvtown player, and the obvtown player was indeed scum. In other words, no one is above suspicion, at least not reasonable suspicion.

1. You say ‘the last person you saw’. This indicates you have seen others making that argument. What were the outcomes of those.
2. Benmage made that exact observation in Clash and was dead-on. Additionally I see it elsewhere on site on a regular basis. Is your theory that an isolated incident that went the opposite of expecations should weigh more than other examples?

Besides, both are being suspected for issues not directly related to their play, Twilight Sparkle for not living up to expectations from a hydra with three strong players, two of them on V/LA, and Thor for posting without being entirely caught up after replacing in.

Twilight Sparkle is being suspected for more than just that. This attempt to minimize the rest of the case against them is noted.

--

@Everyone else: Should we assume now that their is two scum teams, and one of the teams where blocked?

You should not assume anything. Assuming LMP isn’t lying (and I have no reason to think he is) you should keep your mind open to multiple possibililies like –

1. There are two full fledged Scum teams and one (the Starks) had their kill blocked or protected against.
2. That the Stark kill was redirected and hit diddin.
3. There is one Mafia team and multiple Town / 3rd Party killing roles.
4. That the Starks also targeted Chess and the lack of kill flavor covers up the overkill.

There are many other possible options also. Deciding you know what actually happened Day 2 based on very limited information is not smart Town play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My eyes voluntarily left their sockets after those last two posts.

Did they join your ability to post anything but one-liners out there somewhere?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think it is better than remaining completely in the dark about the source material. In my off-site games I've often not been familiar with the theme, and reading about it from a wiki has been helpful, so I did the same here.

There is a difference between becoming passingly familiar enough with the source material to supplement your game-play and using very limited information to make sweeping conclusions about the set-up (ie that said player being in the game means that it is a single scum set-up). I read up via wiki enough to have a good sense of my character.

It did not even occur to me to question him about it. I saw a question, I answered it, it is what I do.

Really? You are going to pretend you don’t use context and your own reads to make judgements and scum-hunt and just derp derp derp along answering general questions you see?

There was

SNIP

The town lost.

This looks very much like a recitiation of your one example. That’s again dodging the question I asked. Have you seen OTHER examples, and if so what were the outcomes?

The main point does seem to be that they're not being as pro-town as people expect though.

No, that is not the main point. I do a good job summarizing my case against them in post
1170.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI- Yeah you said something about me being scared I was on chopping block next.

Yeah, if you mean the following quote –

What Pro-Town reason do you have for asking, other than to make sure you aren’t on the chopping block? Keeping the possibility of further shots obscure helps Town as it withholds information from scum.

What in the

HELL

does this have to do with you cribbing your ‘read’ on ASOIAF / Thor Day 1 from me while simultatnoeusly accusing me of being a ASOIAF / Thor buddy? Answer – nothing …

But do answer the original question – what good does asking Cow if he has another shot do for Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was seeing if you would be willing to bus Song. Your post was what I was thinking too.

Ah, you want to play the clever “It’s a Tarp” card. Sorry, I don’t think your play warrants that as an acceptable defense.

What's your view on DTMaster? Did you have a read on greyICE?

Are you not reading the thread? I pretty much made my thoughts clear on GreyICE Day 1 (he’s scum, IMO). My read on DTM hasn’t changed, as today’s initial post indicated -

After night results and upon review of yesterday’s play my top suspects are Twilight Sparkle, Bunnylover, DTM, and Nexus.

--

Maybe you missed it because it was behind a spoiler:

Yes, I did miss it. Which is why I don’t think Spoilers are useful beyond hiding large amounts of Raw Vote-Count Data.

Can you guess why we might have assumed that a scum Thor flip would confirm Raivann as town, and vice versa?

Magna, I would really like for you to answer this yourself. Because you seem to be implying that our comment was scummy. Do you think there's a problem with the underlying assumption behind it--at least before LynchMePls' claim?

Now it is important for someone to answer the question put to them without interference? :roll”

My issue is not the relation problem with your statement (Thor flipping scum means Raivann is not scum) but with the absoluteness of Town in the result. You aren’t allowing for any potential third party possibilities (back when the assumption was 1 scum team). For example I’m not giving Locke a 100% pass based on his presumed identity. He’s likely Lannister so I’m going to let his Dayplay guide my read and perhaps later the small chance he’s a Serial Killer will have to be sorted out if his play comes to that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MODs – I’ll be V/LA from 1pm EST today until Monday for my usual weekend V/LA.

Also I note

Thor

has managed to lurk (under cover of reading up) his way out of his pressure so far. Great job Thor!

--

@Benmage -

--Remind me to come backt o xvart..and post 1186.

Also –

Huh?

You were wondering why I talked about meta in regards to Shadow and newbie scum. Experienced players like Fate, Sociopath, etc who regularly play in an openly insulting manner have all the reason to be able to pull off being antagonistic early as scum. They are well known and people usually go “It’s Fate, he always is mean, etc”. Newbie scum have no reputation to fall back on for defense if they attract too much negative attention by trolling, as Twilight as repeatedly attempted to say they do.

--

I don't see why a town-aligned player with a night kill would target chess, and I also found it odd that you said you killed him without claiming vig.

You’ve never played with Chess I take it. I’ll summarize for you – he’s a complete Troll who plays to be a pain in the ass, not to win IMO. Want back-up for that? First take a look at his posts all around site, especially in the Queue and MD.

Second I’ll tell you a story – the story of

Secret Invasion Mafia

. Dana can confirm what I am saying to be factual since he was the Mod.

In Secret Invasion the scum team used a double-voter to hammer Day 1 before a claim could be made for a Town Super-Backup. Day 2 the same scum player once again hammered a player before claim, this time when they were run-up a deadline. Day 3 of that game late in the day I stopped tunnelling Bunnylover (who was also Town) and moved to push the double-voter. While I was away due to V/LA Chesskid (also Town) helped the scum push a deadline lynch on me again without a claim.

The kicker – I flipped Town Unblockable Bulletproof Doc (and that was my role, don’t ask). What does Town Chesskid do immediately after the reveal? He sends me a PM saying “haha you died, U mad”. That’s right, he sent a taunting PM

AS TOWN

laughing about participating in a bad lynch that doomed his chances of winning.

In that moment it was 100% clear to me that Chesskid was simply a Troll using Mafia to do so.

--

Setael: Here's a simple counterquestion for you. If you believe in the BL case, are getting all the information for it, then why aren't you voting for it?

Good fucking posting.

--

Why aren't we lynching Bunnylover?

Because Twilight Sparkle is scum. Get with the program DGB.

GreyICE/DTMaster - DTMaster is town because the mod told me so last night, how 'bout that, pussycat?

No, they didn’t. Because you obviously didn’t investigate them as you had the same ‘rock-solid’ Town read on that slot before Night 1.

Stop drinking the gambit juice. Too many players who are Obv-Town at this point. You aren’t going to manufacture a NK draw …

--

So guys. I will spend tonight on a monster case. Unfortunately, I'll only have time for one subject:

1) The player with whom I have reservations the size of a small continent and whose every post raises yet another alarm bell, simply because a couple of the arguments he's pushing are so ridiculous that I'm shocked he could genuinely believe them as town, but who wouldn't be my top choice for a lynch this early on.

2) The player who has virtually claimed scum.

So you went with 2. Why do I think that 1 is a more experienced player who you don’t want to antagonize since you are under fire? Well, let me see ...

Regarding your Case

–

Point One: Inconsistency
Point Two: Zdenek’s inconsistency on MoI’s interactions with me
Point Three: Sheepy play and safe, convenient stances
Point Four: Tilting at Windmills
Point Five: Inconsistency regarding Danakillsu

I’ve read it and just want to be sure we are on the same page.

Points 1, 2 and 5 are all the same point – Zdenek is being inconsistent and thus scummy.
Point 3 – Making safe, convenient stances is scummy.

I’m not sure what exactly you are saying in Point 4 but I don’t see the scumminess there.

Your slot is guilty of exactly those same offenses in Points 1-3, 5 as Zdenek is.

Inconsistency

– I’ve pointed out this in my case regarding my slot. Others have pointed out how Hito’s “Iso Extraveganza” has players with Town reads being listed in second tier suspects.

Safe, convienant stances

– As others have again mentioned the catch-up spectacular ended up listing 3 suspects who were either already under fire and a primary counter wagon to you (Thor) or low profile players being suspected. Add to that my suspicions regarding why you choose ‘Suspect 2’ over 'Suspect 1'.

That catch-up post is exactly what I would expect to see from competent scum under fire for lack of Pro-Town play – a well-reasoned case against a player who isn’t likely to competently fire back.

I don’t see any of my concerns about your slot being addressed. Just a large post that says –

LOOK OVER HERE!!! HE’S SCUMMY FOR X,Y,Z! DON’T PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT I AM GUILTY OF THE SAME CRIMES!!!

Confirm Vote – Twilight Sparkle

.

--

The "last time" can just as well refer to the only time as to the last time of several.

Splitting hairs noted. You only specified it was the one time after I enquired about it. That you didn’t originally say “the one time” but instead “last time” indicates a level of attempted linguistic obscfucation.

--

MoI - Whateves y'all bussed the hell out of me in aCoK. Good job that game btw._

1. Just saying whatever as opposed to being able to answer in a clear and logical fashion is scummy.
2. You want to read that game over again? I NEVER bussed you. In fact I pushed CMAR on his horrible play late Day 1 when you were under pressure. Did you forget that you actually didn’t get lynched but got killed by the SK N1?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know, I'm having a problem with what you're saying here. Time to have a look at how this discussion has developed.

That’s great .. I’m having a problem with the manner in which you are trying to frame the discussion so that I don’t have a legitimate reason to question you. Let’s observe.

I respond to Zdenek with the counterargument that the last person I saw using his argument was wrong. I made my point clear: no one is above reasonable suspicion.

Here you are arguing that you made your point clear that no-one should be under suspicion and that my questioning you isn’t scum-hunting. You are once again missing the pont of my concern.

My concern is that you are cherry-picking events from prior games to bolster you stance. That is something I find that scum are more likely to do. Your initial statement was phrased as such –

The last person I saw making this argument was town, and also wrong. He went on to mislynch the player accused of undermining an obvtown player, and the obvtown player was indeed scum. In other words, no one is above suspicion, at least not reasonable suspicion.

You don’t start off by saying ‘The time I sawy someone use this argument”. You specifically use the phrase “The last person I saw”. The phrasing infers quite clearly that you have seen people use that scum-tell on other occasions. I first questioned you to determine whether there were indeed other occasions where you had seen this tell used. Because if there were and they conflicted with the occasion you used to support your stance against Zdenek then that would be very likely cherry-picking, which Town had no reason to do.

When I questioned you about other occasions your response is to make a linguistic argument out of it and react in a defensive manner as opposed to just simply stating “I didn’t phrase it clearly, that was the only occasion”.

You also ignore the direct counter-example I provided from Clash. Benmage was absolutely correct in that case that I was looking to undermine him in that game and it was a scum-tactic. Scum don’t want too many players that are strongly viewed as Town. The “no-one is immune to suspicion” argument you continue to make follows that thought process. It’s very similar to the arguments KMD made in Gorrad’s Fictional Large Mafia after MPR was a demonstrated Daykiller with flavor that supported him as being Town. KMD kept harping on the fact that ‘proven power doesn’t mean proven alignment’. That’s true in the sense that MPR was not 100% cleared but the circumstances dictated it was not worthwhile to put him in the suspect list until late in the game. KMD was scum who wanted to minimize the PoE Town might have at their disposal. And MPR was 100% Town, of course. I get the feeling you are trying to do the same with there.

1. What was the purpose of the questions concerning my counterargument you asked in post #1274?
2. In particular, why did you ask me about other examples and their outcomes? How would they be relevant to the current game?
3. Where have I dodged a question from you before? Your use of "again" clearly implied I had.
4. Why did you not answer the above two questions when they were originally asked?
5. What would be my purpose in obfuscating how many times I've seen the original argument used? Since you seem to imply that this is scummy, you need to show what I would gain from this as scum.

1. That’s fully explained above.
2. Again, explained above.
3. The again is in regards to you dodging questions from players in general, not specifically me. It apparently wasn’t phrased as clearly as it should have been. Should I chock this question up to the following? –

What I'm thinking about right now is that this is an example of you questioning people on trivial and irrelevant matters. I feel that you're not hunting for scum, you're hunting for weaknesses you could spin into a mislynch.

4. Because they looked more like rhetorical questions when you originally posted them.
5. Explained above.

I await your answers. Meanwhile, I have a feeling that I would find a lot more of such meaningless questions from your ISO.

Scumtastic soft-attack. You have ‘a feeling’ that you would find more ‘meaningless’ (which they aren’t, as clearly shown above) questions in my ISO. But you don’t follow up … which is to be expected when you want to make a rhetoric attack.

--

WHAT?! How is that good posting? BL is on Benmage's "I will govern this lynch if you even try it" list so why the HELL would I vote her? Also, frankly, what BL case? Is "the information" Ghost's referring to me listing all the times she calls herself stupid, because that's about all it is. I'm wary that it's intentional, but her response made me less so.

1. Two other players were voting for Bunnylover when you’ve gone after him for his ‘VI’ posting. Toeing the 'Benmage's approved hit list' line and not voting him while focusing your attention with laser accuracy against Bunnylover I find suspect.
2. If you don’t see the massive amount of words you threw at Bunnylover as something leading to a vote-worthy case why waste all that time pointing out someone you are ‘wary’ of and actually hunt scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI, Benmage has said multiple times that it's fine to attack his "no lynch" list, just not vote them. So why is Setael's stance on BL bad? I don't understand this.

Because he spent entire posts (ISO 8 and 10, specifically) addressing how Bunny is likely scum using the VI thing as a defense – specifically says this:

There's also a good chance she's scum whether she is or isn't a VI

and is hoping she'll avoid attention if people think she's stupid, and then if any attention comes she can just shrug her shoulders and look pretty.

Then Bunnylover responds at 1340 with some statements that to me don’t say a thing about his aligment. Then, in his response to me Setael says:

Also, frankly, what BL case? Is "the information" Ghost's referring to me listing all the times she calls herself stupid, because that's about all it is. I'm wary that it's intentional, but her response made me less so. Other than that I have very little on her and it looks like it could all be explained away if she really is just a VI with low self esteem.

Um whut? If all he had on Bunnylover was the “VI shield” why was the bolded portion of the first statement made. The clear implication is that other information makes Bunnylover scummy and that the VI act is just a way to deflect attention. Yet when called on it by Ghostlin (not Ghostwriter smart-ass ) and myself he tries to distance himself from implicating Bunnylover as scummy. Inconsistency of opinion with a nice side of back-tracking.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What? You will either explain how I'm supposedly doing that, or this is just mudslinging.

I’ve already explained it to you. You’ve made arguments from a scum perspective and in our back and forth are trying to frame my suspicion as solely based on your ‘lingustic’ gymanastics when those are but a part of my issue.

The problem is that you accused me of linguistic obfuscation in post #1353. By then it was well established that I had exactly one example, and you can't cherry pick from a sample size of one. Therefore your suspicion was no longer valid at the time you made the accusation. It did not make much sense to begin with either, since I clearly specified it was the "last person". Even if I had had more examples, I could not have picked which of them was the last.

That’s not an accusation, it was a conclusion Feysal. The linguistic obfuscation where you tried to explain who the phrase “the last person” is synonymous with “the only person” (which it is not) in an additional scummy layer to your play.

I’ve quite clearly explain why I find your “No-one is above suspicion” explanation scummy. Here again you are attempting to say that your linguistic argument is the only thing that I found scummy when it is clearly not. The manner in which you reacted with said linguistic argument adds to the scumminess.

I have not ignored the counterexample you provided, I simply choose to trust my own experience. I am reminded of my first game ever, where one player was considered town for having been verifiably targeted by mafia. On the last day I realized he'd been playing me for a fool, and he was in fact a member of another mafia faction.

I will not put my faith in a generic tell that would discourage players from voicing reasonable suspicions.

Nice. You are presented with not one but two direct counter-examples that show your stance isn’t strong and your response is to “choose to trust my own experience”. That’s fine. I’ll trust my own experience which says someone making the arguments you have made in the manner they have made them is scum.

Emphasis added – the bolded portion is classic. Attempting to minimize the opposing viewpoint by saying it's 'generic' and that it 'discourages' discussion is straw-manning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So IMO the only question left from the MOI-Feysal interactions is: Why isn't MOI voting Feysal?

Are you really asking this question? My number 1 scum read is Twilight Sparkle. I'm voting them. I only have one vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes I'm really asking. It seems to me like the case on Feysal is better. Can you list the points against each and then explain why the TS read is stronger? At least so much stronger that you don't seem to even be entertaining a Feysal vote over TS, despite your continued noting of clearly scummy behavior from Feysal.

I think that we can chock this up to a case of “Home-grown” versus ‘Purchased”. I think both cases have merit and are strong. Frankly I think the TS case is stronger simply because I put it together myself and I’m guessing to some degree you feel the same about the Feysal case.

I wasn’t entertaining a switch of votes since at that point TS was the leading wagon. I certainly am in the group that will switch to prevent a No-Lynch.

In looking at the countdown I suppose I can’t realistically wait

UNVOTE: Twilight
VOTE: Feysal

--

Your #2 here seems to indicate that if we find anyone scummy that is not on Benmage's list you think we should just keep it to ourselves since it's a waste of time to vote them. Is this true?

Not at all. If Bunny was my number 1 suspect I’d be pressuring and voting him regardless of the ‘ban’. I have been questioning you to see how much you were willing to hide behind the Benmage Ban which I think some people are using as a crutch.

@Anyone who has played in a game with BL before: Has she made comments like this in those games about being an idiot and not trusting her reads?

Yes, unfortunately. I’ve seen him do it on multiple occasions as Town. That’s one of the reasons I don’t find questioning him about it is fruitful. My suspicions of him stem from his ‘distancing’ from the Zoraster wagon and other relational play.

This is a pretty hypocritical response considering your surprise that I'm not voting BL when she's clearly not my #1 scum read.

From reading it wasn’t clear to me that BL wasn’t your Number 1 suspect.

--

The obvious move is to first make the case on the player who is more objectively scummy, we find more deserving of a vote, we don’t consistently change our mind on, and isn’t on Benmage’s insta-governor list.

I don’t see how there is any difference in objective scummines between someone who you “have reserverations the size of a small continent, whose every post raises alarm bells, and you are shocked anyone considers Town” and someone who “virtually claimed scum”. Your description of me is just a more wordy version of your description of Zdenek. The only part of that explanation that holds much water is my appearance on Benmage's list.

Your attacks on us, on the other hand, felt more as though you were capitalizing on Magua’s and Ben’s objections with us and trying to get a potential threat lynched early. I also think your “soft attacks" argument was bullshit used to justify turning every objection to your play around on us (hence why I’m so sceptical of Zdenek thinking that was the SELLING point for him on the Twilight Sparkle).

What? I’m capitalizing on others' suspicions? You yourself later say that it looks like I’ve stopped “trying to learn your alignment”. You’ve gotten it into your head that I am scum and are doing just the same thing you accuse me of – taking every post and filtering it through a filter of “MoI must be scum”. For the record my questioning of your slot didn’t magically appear Day 2. ISOs clearly demonstrate this.

Re: GreyICE, remember this was before his flip in BotW, and I’d thought overaggressive emotional play from him was a towntell.

As Mod of said game I had full knowledge of Grey’s play as scum there. It is one of the reasons why I found him suspect here.

If you are scum, I’d expect you to prefer attacking the player whose play is “wackier" than someone who’d likely be a hard lynch (well, we were SUPPOSED to be a hard lynch <_<).)

What? You’d expect me to be targeting “wackier” players if I was scum yet you also suspect me me of being scum for attacking you to take out a strong potential threat. Which is it?

So which is it? You want us to avoid defending ourselves and just scumhunt? Or do you want us to concentrate all our energy into “addressing your concerns"? (As a side note, I love the arrogance implicit in “Stop playing the game and address more of MY concerns!")

Oh scum-hunting is of utmost importance. Once again the manner in which you presented the case reads to me as an attempt to find a target you think can develop a viable wagon and then attack every little bit of their play.

But furthermore, how the fuck does our being accused of an "inconsistency" mean that we're not allowed to point out WORSE inconsistencies from Zdenek?

It doesn’t. Of course my view is that your inconsistencies are certainly indication of scum-mentality since I find them to be at least as strong as those you pointed out for Zdenek. Is it confirmation bias on my part? I’m willing to admit to the possibility. But that isn’t enough for me to back off what I perceive to be a good read on your slot.

Try reading it, then:

For someone high on the horse about not taking jabs and swipes at players you certainly didn’t miss your chance.

I’m interested in your quote, “a well-reasoned" case on Zdenek. You haven’t really said whether our case is good or bad at all.

I call it well-reasoned because it is very well structured and presented. Again I haven’t bothered to really dig into the case because I have a lot on my plate and I don’t see voting for Zdenek today over yourself or Feysal.

By the way, Magna, what is your read on Nexus? At the beginning of the day, he was one of your top four suspects, but you’ve spent comparatively little energy attacking him.

Well since he’s been absent via sickness he hasn’t added much to review until recently. He remains a second tier suspect based mostly on his end of Day play yesterday.

Oh, and also, WHY THE FUCK did you feel the need to post this:

Because I’d rather she actually scum-hunt as opposed to play the lulz gambit game. She’s not helping Town being all coy and mysterious, IMO.

@MoI (who earlier said Zdenek was far from a VI): do you agree with LMP’s assessment of Zdenek’s meta?

I partially disagree with LMP’s assessment. In Personal Agenda he weathered a strong storm of early accusations. In KGB Mafia (LMP’s game) he was mostly lynched because of a looming deadline and the fact that the scum team (myself included) had Vollkan as Town on our side. Quite easily things could have turned out differently and bvoigt lynched in his place Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Still, his claim hits all of the right notes in terms of sincerity. It has a definite smell of legitimacy to it. Sadly, deadline is close enough that we probably can't do any better, barring a mass vote exodus to zdenek. At least we lose very little if Feysal is telling the truth - Voyeur is a pretty useless role.
-hito

Actually I think a quick move over to Twilight Sparkle is in order here ...

UNVOTE: Feysal
VOTE: Twilight Sparkle

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Feysal

– I’ve gone back and looked at your claim. You don’t specifically say you are told what ability targeted who you ‘vouyer’. If this is correct I don’t understand your thinking on targettting Kast.

Say Kast was targeted last Night – the only thing that tells you is that he wasn’t killed. Jumping to the conclusion that it would be a Scan and if no-one pushed he would thus be Town is very flawed.

1. He could have been scanned by a Role-Cop by a scum.
2. He could have been targeted by a Tracker. If he is scum and didn’t act you would be falsely assuming he was ‘clear’.
3. He could have been role-blocked.
4. He could have targeted by any other number of abilities including Enabling, Protection, etc.

Granted some of these are more likely than others but I think the conclusions you are reaching aren’t logically supportable.

--

MoI: What do you think of Magua and Raivann's recent votes for us?

Taking a quick look I see Raivann’s is pure 100% sheep. I’ve read your objections to Magua’s return to you but don’t see anything unusual in his thought process.

Raivann will need to by lynched or vigged soon based on his play (although I do actually like his ‘interest’ list at 1532 for the most part). Magua is Town. Both are voting for my top suspect so I guess I’m satisfied with the result if not completely satisfied with the motives.

--

Scumslip, Nexus?

Elaborate please because I’m not seeing it.

--

I don't want to get over on Twilight because even after my re-read I still am not that impressed by the case (I'm still not sure where MoI's uber case on her is)

ITT thread Thor shows his re-read didn’t actually include reading as there is no way you should have missed THIS.

Vote Raivaan

Hup, hup, hup. Let's move them doggies.

My case on him is 'gut' also just his antics towards the end of day today where he's gone into a mud slinging whirlwind and is basically trying to make Day 2 about a lurker vote as far as I can tell.

So you want to specifically wagon Raivann on ‘gut’ and play chicken with Benmage’s direct statement he would govern Raivann today with less than 48 hours til deadline?

LYNCHMEPLS – I IMPLORE YOU TO KILL HIM WITH FIRE TONIGHT!!!!

Preview Edit – I see you say you missed Benmage’s decree. Further evidence of your well done re-read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll catchup later but don't think a No-lynch is a good plan ...

UNVOTE: Twilight Sparkle
VOTE: Feysal

[MagnaofIllusion]

Cow thanks for keeping my scum winning streak intact in these games.

As you will see from the Dead QT I had some moments of WTF ... but you pulled it off. Cudos.

Why the hell didn't you and Set tell us about your DayQT and why did you stop posting thoughts in the Main scum QT. I would have liked to follow along

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI was scum, so true to promises

Lulz poor Chesskid. Even when occasionally you blunder into being right you are so bad at this game no-one listens to you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Despite the fact I agree with MoI over Chesskid.
I'm calling an end to this discussion right now. Let's discuss the game's set up, pros and cons of how people played, but lets not get into what was 8 pages of the graveyard QT of MoI and Chesskid yelling at each other.

QFT.

I want to see with great interest the BWB QT and the Rob / Greywind QT.

Great game again Seacore and Faraday. Congrats on making the Top of my Most Wanted Mods list. Number 1 slot!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why the hell didn't you and Set tell us about your DayQT

What would that have helped? Honestly?

and why did you stop posting thoughts in the Main scum QT

Because set and I had already been using our mutual one once everyone else died, so I kept using it.

1. Yes, I may have helped to know you two could coordinate during the day. Not sure how much since most of use were dead by Day 3 ... but that's the sort of information that can't possibly hurt.

2. But you deprived me of being able to look in on your thoughts and plans. I'm a Vouyer at heart

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ah. Makes good sense.
Now I know what to do: can't convince them? Fakeclaim a Cop-Guilty.

I can't wait to see you implement this. I predict the following sequence of events -

1. Andy - Fake-claim scum Cop guilty on Player X.
2. Player X flips Town.
3. Andy flips Town when hung.

Your large wall of text contains lots of hindsight bias.

I'll be looking forward to your play going forward to see how this taste of 'success' (in catching scum and being NKed) affects your future play.

Remember you kept calling me scum via dayplay in [REDACTED], yet when I flipped Town that seemed to be convienently forgotten.