Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Furcolow]

jeez, this is going to sound like a weird case.
ok, as scum, the first thing i noticed he does (in verona mafia) is ask really lilting toned questions, as seen here:
"So your sole reason for voting for me is you think other people are scum?"
How does that further discussion? I didn't even have to look off this page!!

FURTHERMORE, I saw a game of his as town... around 20 posts... he doesn't quote a single person. He just makes informative posts about his analysis as town, which he is not doing here, and he is also quoting people here. Coupld that with this: He quoted excessively as scum, and I feel there is a pretty good case on him.

On top of that, PoisonIvy considering the nationalities actually felt like a slip to me. I know a lot of people dismissed it, but it was a strike against the slot for me.

[Furcolow]

p.s., sorry, she*

[Feysal]

@ Feysal - a few things you should know:
1. Lies of locke lamora was mine and Furc's first game together so it really shouldn't be a surprise he didn't know my meta then (I think it was also the first game I played since I came back after a break as well). Since then we've played together in at least 2 or 3 other games. As you mentioned he picked me correctly as scum in rivertown recently, and picked me correctly as town (albeit not at first) in frenzy mafia. I linked to it earlier in this game so you can check it out if you want.

I know, I think I found all the games you've played together, though I did not look too deeply at them all. I actually thought Frenzy Mafia was ongoing, there was nothing on the first page to indicate the game was over. I checked it now, and discovered that Furcolow was the last person voting you until you used your one-shot ability to have yourself mod confirmed as town to him. That really does not inspire confidence in his ability to read your meta, and I would not put my faith into Furcolow's reads over my own anyway, no matter what I thought his alignment was. Besides, I don't think meta reads are ever really reliable. I tried to get a meta read on you anyway, against my better judgment, and it was really not very helpful.

2. The comment about Furcolow and his "VI account" is an understandable misrepresentation, as it caused similar confusion in the game it first appeared in. He was referring to his account in which he was hydra-ing with and learning from the (well-known and excellent) mafia player Vi. It does NOT refer to an account were he plays as a Village Idiot.

I actually knew this, I read that game a bit further and found the explanation. My point was not that he would purposely play like a village idiot, it was that he had admitted to being one. I guess I should've posted the quote where he was explicit about it, this one:

I'm not "on a VI account for the sake of being on a VI account"
i was referring to this being my main account, and

me being a VI

I am also Hydra-ing with Vi, who is a good player, who is teaching me on an alt-hydra-account
therefore, this, my normal account, is my "vi account" even if it is not an "alt account for a vi"

Since Furcolow seems to agree that he is a village idiot, I don't like him accusing people of ad hominem for calling him that.

Other than the flip flopping between furc and I is there anything else you actually find scummy? Or are you just another one of those people who are agreeing with Nacho for no reason?

Bad though it may look, I'll have to get back to you on this. I'd have to do another ISO read of you and write a longer post, and I don't have the time right now. Later tonight, hopefully.

[LimMePls]

I am ABSOLUTELY not dodging it. I answered your little sceneario. What is the problem? Also, how has Amrun "dropped from my my radar"?

That answer was so absurd that I had hoped you wouldn't bring it back up. Dropped from your radar as in I asked you why you were voting Ivy and you got all huffy about it. You claimed that Ivy was the worst and convinced me of that fact. Then I go to bed at night, content with the fact that me and LMP were going to force this town to lynch Ivy, hand-in-hand. My dream turned into a nightmare when, the next day, you completely threw Ivy off your list and went after ThAdmiral.

I think, when Amrun flips scum (even if it's not today), you're going to have some explaining to do. I just want you to know I'm not going to forget what you did today.

I did NOT completely through Ivy off my list. Go look at my TOWN/SCUM meter from after my reread, Ivy is still WAY DOWN THERE. What I did do was reread the game and decide that the Ivy wagon was not the place to be. As for my "claiming Ivy was the worst and convinced me of that" I don't know where I did this, all I know is that I said "My votes been on Ivy to this point because Ivy has been the scummiest, and why do I have to justify my vote being here just because its been there a long time" (or words to that effect). Your attitude alarms me a bit.

[LimMePls]

I am ABSOLUTELY not dodging it. I answered your little sceneario. What is the problem? Also, how has Amrun "dropped from my my radar"?

That answer was so absurd that I had hoped you wouldn't bring it back up. Dropped from your radar as in I asked you why you were voting Ivy and you got all huffy about it. You claimed that Ivy was the worst and convinced me of that fact. Then I go to bed at night, content with the fact that me and LMP were going to force this town to lynch Ivy, hand-in-hand. My dream turned into a nightmare when, the next day, you completely threw Ivy off your list and went after ThAdmiral.

I think, when Amrun flips scum (even if it's not today), you're going to have some explaining to do. I just want you to know I'm not going to forget what you did today.

@Everyone-who-isn't-RC: Does anyone else think that my answer to his question "was so absurd that I had hoped you wouldn't bring it back up"? Because this just seems ludicrous to me.

[Feysal]

ok, as scum, the first thing i noticed he does (in verona mafia) is ask really lilting toned questions, as seen here:

What is this Verona Mafia you speak of? I could only find a game from years ago on another forum by that name, and I saw no Amrun there. She is a very new player on this site, and I could only find a single newbie game she had completed, and two that are ongoing, so what are you talking about?

[smargaret]

I just noticed the activity overview - that's really neat.

I am less willing to lynch jmj now; I'd rather wait and watch Mothrax and see if the scummy fluffposting was due to RL issues or if there's still reason to suspect scum out of that slot.

This game is going to stagnate without a flip. We need to get a lynch and move on.

I don't like that Furc is using meta based off a single game to justify reads, it looks a lot like confirmation bias to me. I know my playstyle changed DRAMATICALLY between my first newbie game and any subsequent game.

[LimMePls]

I agree the game sorely needs a claim.

That's fascinating, because we were talking about a lynch, not a claim.

[Amrun]

Wow, furc, that's the biggest stretch I've ever seen.

I have ONE completed newbie game on this site, which I replaced into. I was town. All other games are on-going, but I died in one which I also replaced into (town).

What is this Verona mafia you're talking about?

Also, YES, I asked a question of someone voting for me (shocker). It's to a lurker who hasn't answered me (another shocker).

I have shared my reads and contributed to this game a lot. To say all I do is ask one-liner questions is the biggest misrepresentation I can think of.

[DavidParker]

I'm most willing to lynch either JMJ or Furc today. However, the latter would be largely policy-lynch based, which in a large-game isn't a terrible day 1 lynch.

[Beasts of the Sea]

I am back from V/LA and reading. Sorry about my unexplained absence, I did not have time to announce it.

[Stephoscope]

I agree the game sorely needs a claim.

That's fascinating, because we were talking about a lynch, not a claim.

Please note that I was responding to RedCoyote's post 585 in particular, and in that post he discusses the need for a claim.

[Amrun]

Still not going to answer my question, then?

[Stephoscope]

So your sole reason for voting for me is you think other people are scum?

Of course not. I think reasonable cases have been put on all three of you, and obviously our hands are being forced to pick a wagon. I was merely thinking through potential outcomes, and posts like that can be handy later in a game even if I'm not still alive.

[Furcolow]

Wow, furc, that's the biggest stretch I've ever seen.

I have ONE completed newbie game on this site, which I replaced into. I was town. All other games are on-going, but I died in one which I also replaced into (town).

What is this Verona mafia you're talking about?

Also, YES, I asked a question of someone voting for me (shocker). It's to a lurker who hasn't answered me (another shocker).

I have shared my reads and contributed to this game a lot. To say all I do is ask one-liner questions is the biggest misrepresentation I can think of.

oh, jeez, i just realized I got you confused with Artem

unvote

[Furcolow]

I had been up all night, and I really thought pieces were falling into place for me.
We need more setup speculation, so I actually have something to talk about

I want numbers of town vs scum, and I want to be able to direct our roles
if I knew for a fact we had protection roles, I wouldn't mind a claim.

[Amrun]

Thanks for answering. I just wanted to see what you would say, stephoscope.

Of course you're right. My flip will be informative, if I'm killed. At least I will help town in that way.

I'd rather be helpful alive, though, and I'd rather we lynch scum instead of mislynching.

I've made my cases and defenses... So we'll see, I guess.

P-edit: Furc... Screen names are important for meta. Haha.

[Furcolow]

the cat avatars didn't help!

[XScorpion]

I have three questions.
1) Why is my tunneling supposedly anti-town?
2) Why is Amrun not dead yet?
3) Why does Furcolow seem really bad at this game?

[Feysal]

Other than the flip flopping between furc and I is there anything else you actually find scummy? Or are you just another one of those people who are agreeing with Nacho for no reason?

Bad though it may look, I'll have to get back to you on this. I'd have to do another ISO read of you and write a longer post, and I don't have the time right now. Later tonight, hopefully.

Okay, time to do this.

Part of why I find ThAdmiral scummy is his interactions with Furcolow, which is why I would prefer Furcolow dying first. However, even before Furcolow flipping it looks odd to me how ThAdmiral starts making excuses for Furcolow immediately, like so:

Furcolow is improving. So I think this is a bit unfair.

I think he's doing alright tbh.
I've seen him play a lot worse than this, and that is why he is a policy lynch to a lot of people.

Other things:
1. My spidey sense says Furcolow is town.
2. GhostWriter's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.
3. smargaret is giving me town pings but that's pretty slim right now. Also, JMJ's comment "no hard feelings" earlier struck me as suspicious as well.

1. Yep.
2. Good pick up.
3. I'm actually getting scum tingles from smargaret.

After this comes the flip with Furcolow. Sathoris pointed out the scum could talk for 24 hours before the game started, and in response ThAdmiral voted Furcolow, since this made him look bad. I'm fine with this, but what happens between #113 and #140 looks odd to me. During the 14 hours between those posts Furcolow threw a fit of panic and voted PoisonIvy for survival. This got him a town read from ThAdmiral, and he has stuck to that ever since. Moving on...

Oh noes, disapproval!
She was laughingly trying to make it seem like Furc was saying that the pro-town thing was to vote him, whereas he was making a point about certainty and uncertainty. It was a massive reach.

smargaret criticized Furcolow in #78, ThAdmiral disapproved with part of it in #92, RedCoyote disapproved of that in #117, and ThAdmiral responded with the above quote. I thought smargaret was criticizing Furcolow for his reaction test, but I can see the side ThAdmiral is taking here too. I don't think it was that big a deal though, and smargaret certainly was not laughing about it. And still in the same post, ThAdmiral said this:

Is a good pick up: "Hey, haven't I seen you before? I remember, it was in my dreams!"?

What ThAdmiral called a good pick up in #105 really was not that good, it should've been obvious GhostWriter had made up his responses. Making a joke of it does not change that it was bad, and trying to laugh it off after calling smargaret out for "laughingly" criticizing Furcolow does not help any. Again in #156 ThAdmiral made light of Nachomamma8 calling him scum.

It is if you are town.

Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.

But I'm just saying him voting the other leading wagon is not necessarily anti-town if he is indeed town. Especially since often when there is competing wagons one is town and one is scum.

ThAdmiral however has been giving me bad vibes throughout. Don't actually know why

Maybe because of recent statements from other players expressing negative opinions of you, you figure he's an easy counterwagon to yours? Seriously people, look at this quote. This is just AWFUL.

Yeah this is classic "keep counterwagon options open" scum-talk. (not what you said, what PoisonIvy said)

Nothing up to now has been that scummy, except for the absence of scumhunting and for not helping the game along, but this post I have a more serious problem with. Earlier ThAdmiral called Furcolow's vote for survival pro-town behavior "if you are town". Furcolow did not even try to justify his vote with anything else, and he got a town read. However, PoisonIvy does not get equal treatment. She could be town too, she could want to survive too, but for her to even hint at another potential wagon is a scumtell. This reeks of a double standard. Furcolow gets town points for wanting to live, PoisonIvy gets scum points for even hinting at it. If I had to name a single post that suggests Furcolow and ThAdmiral being in the same scum team, this is it.

This was only the tenth post by ThAdmiral. Then there is more of defending Furcolow for not wanting to die in #209, and criticizing PoisonIvy in #238. I really wonder how no one else thought her reaction to pressure was very townish, she got her final reads out and seemed to accept she would be lynched. I can see no flailing from her at this time, and I don't like her being called a drama queen for endorsing her own lynch. ThAdmiral calls it scummy how GhostWriter is not scumhunting in #277, but I don't see him doing much of that either. Or sharing opinions, which he asks of Lowell in #293.

After this it continues pretty much the same. There is very little in the way of scumhunting, and more of defending himself once the wagon on him started to really take off. Nothing that would stand out as that scummy, but no improvement either.

I knew this would become a long post, but these were the things I found scummy. Some details I noticed only on this readthrough though.

[gonnano]

The point about JMJ's lack of activity being due to a real issue is a good one, but I don't think it completely invalidates the lurker case on him. He still made several posts that promised content and didn't give any, and it seems like even in the presence of a problem in real life, a townie wouldn't be likely to stall like that.

In other news, I've become less fond of the Thad wagon. All of the points against him seem like someone's trying too hard to make the pieces fit together in a certain way.

[bvoigt]

The point about JMJ's lack of activity being due to a real issue is a good one, but I don't think it completely invalidates the lurker case on him. He still made several posts that promised content and didn't give any, and it seems like even in the presence of a problem in real life, a townie wouldn't be likely to stall like that.

What

would

a townie in his situation, with no time, do differently?

[Furcolow]

I have three questions.
1) Why is my tunneling supposedly anti-town?
2) Why is Amrun not dead yet?
3) Why does Furcolow seem really bad at this game?

Key word is seem... I am actually very smart, I just don't take my time. I am also sort of ditzy. However, I am very intelligent, even if I don't always prove it.

I'll put in work, though, in the night.

[Furcolow]

After this it continues pretty much the same. There is very little in the way of scumhunting, and more of defending himself once the wagon on him started to really take off. Nothing that would stand out as that scummy, but no improvement either.
I knew this would become a long post, but these were the things I found scummy. Some details I noticed only on this readthrough though.

The Admiral is attempting to do his version of informative scumhunting, if you will. He himself will admit he is not the best scumhunter, and he is modest about his intelligence. This is his townie game. Stop tunneling, bro.

[Furcolow]

I agree the game sorely needs a claim.

That's fascinating, because we were talking about a lynch, not a claim.

Please note that I was responding to RedCoyote's post 585 in particular, and in that post he discusses the need for a claim.

I don't really like this post from Stephoscope. It is very defensive.
I am also for claiming. Like say I was a Bulletproof, what would that do to the setup? I have also heard of this role being called a Veteran. If I was a Veteran, and had two night lives, it might be wise to claim and setup a circle if there were direct ways of directing via whispering/personal messages. I do not see us having that ability here, so it might not be safe to put all of our pieces out on the table yet.

I was considering claiming Veteran publicly, but I am going to just sit back for now. It is difficult for me to obtain a read, and it is because of the lack of information. I'm going to have to vote Steph on policy.

=

Sorry, steph.
I just really disagree with you.
I know talking to me can be like talking to a wall, when it comes to middle ground, but are you positive you won't rectify your position and situation with me? I am pretty sure that the only reason you would be setting me up like I've seen from you this game is that you would want to mislynch me easily as scum after lurking through Day 1 as the Godfather with little or no suspicions put onto you whatsoever.

With no protective role, though, I would possibly agree with you. WE JUST CAN'T KNOW THAT.
Organization is what is the key to the town, and getting information out. Little snarky comments about ideas that are actually very openminded and assertive in that the town as a collective can come together to overcome the threat of scum is just the exact thing that I don't want to see.

I don't know what to say, other than policy. No read, no enjoyment... no playerslot?

Vote: Stephoscope