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Post Post #325 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:21 pm

Post by Feysal »

Finished reading up to page 11. Thoughts from those six pages:

GreyICE still reads town to me, but a rather foolish one. For whatever reason he has taken offense with MoI posting walls, and he is not afraid to show it. What I don't get is why he would antagonize another player like that, over something so trivial. The only good thing I got out of this fight was that it looks like genuine frustration to me, and not like scum distancing. I don't agree at all with his case on DGB, her factual incorrectness about hasdgfas faking a post restriction is a mere technicality when he was actually following a real but voluntary restriction.

Then we've got Benmage full of confidence, repeatedly asking to be raised as Hand, saying he will use the power in the most badass way he can. I don't like that much. I can't say if it is scummy or not, but his confidence reads to me as arrogance. In my admittedly limited experience with Benmage, he is by no means immune to screwing up like the village idiots he wants to policy lynch, though perhaps less likely. I also got a bad feeling from his claim that false bravado would not be typical for scum. While generally true, Benmage strikes me as the type of player who would be the exception to the rule.

I find it funny how Song of Ice and Fire and Chesskid said they had a similar reaction to their roles as Shadow. That may have been a trend, I was somewhat confused too whether I was supposed to be town or scum, but at least I did not ask the mod about it. I believe Shadow is town by the way, and not a village idiot by any means. His attitude and style have looked genuine and townish to me, and that is the basis of the read, though I don't remember seeing much in the way of scumhunting.

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

Raise: hasdgfas


For now, I choose to believe his claim and that he is town. I've also liked what little I've seen him able to communicate.

I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction", and the jury is still out for much of the playerlist.

More to come, but for tonight I've read enough.
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Post Post #326 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:32 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

Nice choice, hascow is probscum. That old role might be the inspiration that gave him the idea that he could get away with a lot of nonsense by faking a post restriction.

I WANT TO SEE
HASCOW
BREAK THE POST RESTRICTION IN HIS NEXT POST.
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Post Post #327 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:33 pm

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Bunnylover wrote:@Chesskid3: That is true. I do need pressure.
what is this I don't even :(
stop making me not be able to read you as scum damnit
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Post Post #328 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:34 pm

Post by chesskid3 »

Feysal wrote:Finished reading up to page 11. Thoughts from those six pages:

GreyICE still reads town to me, but a rather foolish one. For whatever reason he has taken offense with MoI posting walls, and he is not afraid to show it. What I don't get is why he would antagonize another player like that, over something so trivial. The only good thing I got out of this fight was that it looks like genuine frustration to me, and not like scum distancing. I don't agree at all with his case on DGB, her factual incorrectness about hasdgfas faking a post restriction is a mere technicality when he was actually following a real but voluntary restriction.

Then we've got Benmage full of confidence, repeatedly asking to be raised as Hand, saying he will use the power in the most badass way he can. I don't like that much. I can't say if it is scummy or not, but his confidence reads to me as arrogance. In my admittedly limited experience with Benmage, he is by no means immune to screwing up like the village idiots he wants to policy lynch, though perhaps less likely. I also got a bad feeling from his claim that false bravado would not be typical for scum. While generally true, Benmage strikes me as the type of player who would be the exception to the rule.

I find it funny how Song of Ice and Fire and Chesskid said they had a similar reaction to their roles as Shadow. That may have been a trend, I was somewhat confused too whether I was supposed to be town or scum, but at least I did not ask the mod about it. I believe Shadow is town by the way, and not a village idiot by any means. His attitude and style have looked genuine and townish to me, and that is the basis of the read, though I don't remember seeing much in the way of scumhunting.

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

Raise: hasdgfas


For now, I choose to believe his claim and that he is town. I've also liked what little I've seen him able to communicate.

I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction", and the jury is still out for much of the playerlist.

More to come, but for tonight I've read enough.
mind throwing down a vote for diddin?
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Post Post #329 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:02 pm

Post by Shadow1psc »

@Feysal

We have a lot of people, and only a few days worth of posts. If reading correctly, at least 10 of our player base are enjoying the weekend, and we had a late-in-the-week start. Discussion was pretty good the first day, then dropped off, as I assume it will most weekends. SO as far as scum-hunting, or lack thereof, I've only ever been in one large format game (different site), where there was 27 players and a 48 hour day cycle, on top of already knowing the playerbase, so this is a different experience coming into a different community, with people I don't know in a large volume, where I don't have the advantage of knowing peoples' habits or scum tells, nor the time to read past games on 20+ people. I'm doing the best I can though, and the longer I'm alive, the more value I'll be I'm sure, and I know I work well in the smaller formats.
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Post Post #330 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:15 pm

Post by zoraster »

Okay. So I'm current. Here's what I think:

Twilight is screaming town right now.

Locke Lamora looks pretty scummy to me. He's got a bunch of scum reading lite versions. He basically questions why anyone would get a town read on DGB, but doesn't follow that up with any REAL suspicion on her. It's more like he wants to seem like an aggressive town but without actually getting involved in what that entails. He's more interested in asking questions and putting up appearances of being interested in who's scum and who's not than actually going for it. Call it gut but between this one and the next one (who I find scummy as well), I'm picking Locke as my choice.

VOTE: Locke Lamora

Kast is scummy to me, and I'm not quite sure why he hasn't garnered more attention from the mob. He spends a lot of time arguing with Benmage about whether to take out VIs or not, and ironically says that he wants to go after scum. But rather than actually DO this, he sits around content to discuss stuff about the game rather than the people in it (if that makes sense).

GreyICE, even if a bit foolish, shouldn't be our lynch today. He comes across as town to me, pretty earnest in his beliefs about what's going to help town.

DGB isn't looking great. She's put a lot of stock into her little town/scum lists with pseudo-certainty over how many people are scum and where they are without any real backing up of why that's the case. I'm not convinced she's scum yet, though.

Chesskid is more subdued than I'd expect town-chesskid, but I don't put a ton of stock in that.

Out of the other people, I haven't gotten a huge impression off of a initial read. I'll be sure to return to my thoughts when I've slept on them.
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Post Post #331 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Post by chesskid3 »

town-chesskid doesn't always run around like a chicken without a head, you know.
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Post Post #332 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:17 pm

Post by chesskid3 »

What's your read on Diddin, btw?
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Post Post #333 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:41 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Mikujin wrote:
unraise
unvote


Benmage has insisted he's town several times, and I care little for that. DGB keeps making lists, I abhor them (especially since they seem largely arbitrary). Grey is over-enthusiastic. Shadow seems new and silly (and is another one of those guys dropping "Aww shucks I'm not scum!" lines). Most others are either quiet or contemplative. I think I'm largely caught up now.
Mikujin wrote:
Twilight Sparkle wrote:
Twilight Sparkle wrote:Also, to the town at large: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?
If no one wants the target lynched then it begs asking: why is said person being lynched in order for a governor to need to save them?

Ultimately, whoever gets the governor power is going to rely on gut (barring role-specific information).
Twilight Sparkle wrote:If you're not voting, you're not caught up.
I'm choosing to withhold it until such time as I'm certain of my convictions. While it's by no means dangerous for me to use it at this point, I've no grounded suspicion of any one person at this time.

Likewise, I've not raised a new person for much the same reason; no one stands out and above as an example to the rest of us.
Uh, guys, am I the only person who sees anything fucking wrong here?
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Post Post #334 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:26 pm

Post by Locke Lamora »

Zoraster: I explained my suspicion of DGB. There was a lot more focus on repeating that self-raising is stupid than there was on finding scum. All that came in response is a bunch of inane town/scum lists which still seem to be lacking the drive to pressure suspects and several people saying 'DGB is obvtown'. I'm still not convinced by DGB's play but apparently half the players here are just going to mindlessly call her town and move on, so while my vote is elsewhere, the suspicion's still there.

Mikujin's brief catchup posts have been entirely underwhelming and, as it seems Grey has noticed, his reason for not voting seems contradictory to his previous post. Not only that, but if anyone can read through 14 pages and not find a good reason to vote anyone, it suggests scumhunting is hard work, which is often a good indicator of scum.

Mikujin just about keeps my vote off Bunnylover, who has thus far displayed a similar lack of instinct to go after scum and apparently is just going to make jokes for most of the game.

The thing that I've been thinking about Hascow's restriction is it's not like Ilyn Payne is going to get his ability to speak back. I was in the Wire Mafia when Jebus, as scum, faked a post restriction early on in the game where he could only post pictures, then later regained his ability to speak - I believe the plan was to pretend he was drunk D1 (it didn't work, but the point is I've seen scum try it with the potential for it to be later removed). I don't see that happening with Payne, so either town-Cow is going to have to play like this for the whole game, or scum-Cow is going to have to fake it for the whole game as, let's be honest, if he comes out tomorrow and says 'oh I was given the ability to speak again!' then he's just going to get lynched.
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Post Post #335 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:44 pm

Post by Mikujin »

GreyICE wrote:Uh, guys, am I the only person who sees anything fucking wrong here?
Locke Lamora wrote:Mikujin's brief catchup posts have been entirely underwhelming and, as it seems Grey has noticed, his reason for not voting seems contradictory to his previous post. Not only that, but if anyone can read through 14 pages and not find a good reason to vote anyone, it suggests scumhunting is hard work, which is often a good indicator of scum.
Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut. And whilest you've pointed out, Locke, that there's 14 pages worth of reading one can do, consider we've still more than a week to further poke and probe at the minds of others. Rushing in hastily leads to rash decisions and tunnel-vision.
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Post Post #336 (ISO) » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Post by Locke Lamora »

Well, playing 'rather reserved' means it's hard to get a read on you, because you're not really taking a stance on much, and it slows down the game, because you don't get much interesting information if people are saying 'I don't like this post...but I don't really feel like voting for anyone yet'. As for rushing in hastily and rash decisions, has anyone even got more than 4 votes at any point in this game? You might think 10 days is a long time, but the weekends are always slow and there are a whole lot of scattered votes/non-voters right now. The longer it takes people to take a stance, the closer we get to deadline with no real indication of who the major lynch candidates are going to be, and then we end up needing a late, quickly-built wagon, which can cause all sorts of problems. So that's what I think is wrong with playing 'rather reserved'.
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Post Post #337 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:28 am

Post by Eddard Stark »

Vote count 1.9


Twilight Sparkle (1) Zdenek
DrippingGoofball (1) Bunnylover
xvart (1) Song of Ice and Fire
Mikujin (3) Danakillsu, GreyICE, Locke Lamora
LynchMePls (1) DrippingGoofball
GreyICE (3) LynchMePls, Nexus, Shadow1psc
Song of Ice and Fire (2) Raivann, Twilight Sparkle
diddin (3) Magua, chesskid3, MagnaofIllusion
danakillsu (2) Benmage, xvart
Magua (1) diddin
M
Locke Lamora (1) Zoraster

Not voting (6) Percy, Xtoxm, Feysal, Kast, hasdgfas, Mikujin

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch.


Raise Count 1.9


Locke Lamora (1) Locke Lamora
Hasdgfas (2) GreyICE, Feysal
Twilight Sparkle (2) Magua, Bunnylover
DrippingGoofball (2) Danakillsu,Raivann
Danakillsu (1) chesskid3
Benmage (4) Benmage, Song of Ice and Fire, MagnaofIllusion, diddin

Magua (2) LynchMePls, Hasdgfas

Not raising (11)Nexus, Percy, xvart, Xtoxm, Zdenek, Zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, DrippingGoofball, Kast, Shadow1psc, Mikujin

With 25 alive it takes 13 to raise someone


*Any mistakes in the votecount PLEASE point them out. God knows it'd not be the first time I made a mistake.
* Xtoxm and Song of Ice and Fire have yet to post after prod. There are a number of other people due a prod (at least 3), however due to the weekend that it is I'll be lenient. Anyone who needs a prod will get it tomorrow.
* Zdenek is currently on v/la untill Sunday and Monday. MoI is also V/la.
* Deadline countdown is here
Last edited by Eddard Stark on Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #338 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:19 am

Post by xvart »

diddin, 252 wrote:If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?
Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?
DrippingGoofball wrote:One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin
DGB - what was the basis of one of these people being scum? Was it based on a wagon somewhere along the way?
GreyICE, 295 wrote:I would of course use it on confirmed/confirmable townies. That's the only reason I would, short we're in like 7 man LyLo, and I see someone vote followed by two posts that are just:

"WELL OKAY"
"VOTE: XXXXX"

If you don't believe I'd throw it away day 1, here's a simple solution: give it to me, make me promise to use it, and if I don't, lynch me day 2.
Another reason scum would want the governor role is to prevent a left field town save on a town lynch.

I like MoI's case on diddin in 287.
diddin, 296 wrote:You never did. I was making a comparison between what you said and Benmage's push to lynch all VI's.
I'm failing to see the relationship, but are we comparing apples and oranges here?
Mikujin, 309 wrote:Shadow seems new and silly (and is another one of those guys dropping "Aww shucks I'm not scum!" lines).
I think I've only seen the "dammit I'm not scum" once. What is your experience with this? Is it indicative of alignment?
Bunnylover, 315 wrote:@TS: Frankly I think the moment someone gets the governor ability they use it just to get it out of the way.
Frankly I think it would be best to give it to some alignment cop, but that's probably asking too much right now. :D I guess this would be my answer to Twilight Sparkle in the off chance we give it to an alignment cop they can save someone without blowing their cover (although they would have to explain it somehow).
danakillsu, 321 wrote:@xvart
Okay, so Zoraster said something along those lines, too. Big deal.
Then you should be raising zoraster, since that was the basis for picking DGB for the raise.
chesskid3, 322 wrote:I skimmed that wall and my name was nowhere in it, so I didn't read it :(
BL and diddin need pressures
I actually mentioned you once, but it was a reference to another game. Look for the smiley.
Bunnylover, 324 wrote:@Xvart: lol you so read that post wrong.
Apparently I did. Thanks for the clarification.
Bunnylover, 324 wrote:Are you saying you agree with Benmage in that lynching 3 to 4 player without gathering any information (because what would be discuss if the lynch is already settled?)? What exactly is wrong with pointing that out?
I don't see 3 or 4 VIs in this game (or rather 3 to 4 people I would consider a detriment to the long game). Who are the 3 or 4 people you think are VIs? I was saying that if someone is going to be a detriment to the long term game it is much safer to eliminate them now as opposed to later.

re: DGB and the hydra using AIM. I was in a hydra with Sotty once (as scum) and we talked on AIM quite a bit, especially early game; so I don't think that in and of itself is a town tell. But it does appear that Sotty hasn't really chimed in for their team yet so that isn't evidence to the contrary either. That being said, I think they are the most pro town person so far in the game.

I like both diddin and GreyICE for lynching, but I think diddin is the superior lynch at this point. Zoraster and maybe MoI at a decent third. Maybe bunnylover.

Raise: Twilight Sparkle

UNVOTE:
VOTE: diddin
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Post Post #339 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:26 am

Post by GreyICE »

Mikujin wrote:Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut. And whilest you've pointed out, Locke, that there's 14 pages worth of reading one can do, consider we've still more than a week to further poke and probe at the minds of others. Rushing in hastily leads to rash decisions and tunnel-vision.
You're not telling me in 14 pages there are no scum reads. I don't want town reads, town reads are easy for the scum to fake. You're over apologetic, you're not commenting on anyone's behavior, you're not scumhunting. And I think it's because you're scum and just taking the easy way out and hoping we let you slide because there's other shiny toys to play with.

Garbage. Garbage, garbage, garbage. I am not interested, I want to know who you would lynch and way. Not this 'standing back and not taking responsibility for our lynch.' Tell me your reads, and we'll see what we want to do with them.
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Post Post #340 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:46 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

xvart wrote:
DrippingGoofball wrote:One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin
DGB - what was the basis of one of these people being scum? Was it based on a wagon somewhere along the way?
There be scumz on that there wagonz. Dat's the theery, young'un.
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Post Post #341 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:07 am

Post by Twilight Sparkle »

MoI:


Explain how this:
MagnaofIllusion Post 281 wrote:
Benmage wrote:Despite rolling town. I've been looking forward to this game way too much to not give it my A-game.
As long as your A-game doesn’t involve faking a guilty on someone who ends up Lannister aligned I’m happy to hear this.
Gels with this:
MagnaofIllusion Post 241 wrote:
Unraise MoI
Raise Benmage


I’m willing to do this based on past experiences with you Ben. Don’t disappoint me.
= = = = = = =
Mikujin Post 335 wrote:
GreyICE wrote:Uh, guys, am I the only person who sees anything fucking wrong here?
Locke Lamora wrote:Mikujin's brief catchup posts have been entirely underwhelming and, as it seems Grey has noticed, his reason for not voting seems contradictory to his previous post. Not only that, but if anyone can read through 14 pages and not find a good reason to vote anyone, it suggests scumhunting is hard work, which is often a good indicator of scum.
Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut. And whilest you've pointed out, Locke, that there's 14 pages worth of reading one can do, consider we've still more than a week to further poke and probe at the minds of others. Rushing in hastily leads to rash decisions and tunnel-vision.
A quick skim of your ISO in Newbie 959 goes against this line of thought. I see you replaced in and even placed a player at Lynch-1. There also seems to be a number of other votes placed that goes against the whole “I like to with hold my vote” line you are touting here.

What's the difference between then and now?

= = = = =

Had a bad few days, but I am caught up now, so hydra is at full strength. Thanks to my ponies in arms for posting in my absence.

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Post Post #342 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:03 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Townly

GreyICE
Magua
Twighlight
Chesskid
Feysal
Zoraster

Scummy

Mikujin
Benmage
Shadow

The others I view as neutral, too many still to be worth listing.
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you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
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Post Post #343 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:18 am

Post by LimMePls »

I an get behind a Sparkle-Hand.

Unraise
Raise: Sparkle
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Post Post #344 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:53 am

Post by Magua »

hasdgfas' posts make my head hurt. Specifically #281.

Re: governor. Governor should be used to stop the lynch of someone the governor thinks is town. It shouldn't be wasted "just to get it out of the way", because it's a powerful piece of information that can be used later, and wasting that simply throws it away. If the Raise power was a 1-shot vig instead of a governor, I do not think anyone would argue that using it would be anti-town. I see this the same way.

Yes, scum could use it to save their buddy. But to plausibly do this, the scum-governor would have to be posting townreads on their buddy to begin with -- if a governor were to use it on the lynch of someone they had posted a scumread on, there'd be hell to pay. Forcing that sort of thing ahead of time is very, very, very handy for the town.
Mikujin wrote:Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut.
We're nowhere near a lynch. Your vote is not set in stone. Vote. This goes for Xtoxm, as well.
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Post Post #345 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:04 am

Post by Zdenek »

I've read the thread, and I am pretty much caught up.
General stuff:
Twilight Sparkle wrote: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?
I am undecided, but my impulse is to give it Benmage and see what he does with it. I have to think more about this game though.


Benmage:
benmage wrote: You'll have to convince people why LL is scum....So why is he?
benmage, why ask DGB to convince you that LL is scum, when you already provided a reason to suspect him?
Benmage wrote: MoI your town.
Also, why do you think MoI is town?

Kast:
Kast wrote: I didn't only mean your paranoia about governor power; you're overreacting to almost everyone on almost everything. It rubs me wrong. Do you have any links to past games where you similarly go crazy over nothing?
This question by Kast looks like carefully disguised mudslinging. In addition, many of his posts contain what I consider too much fluff relating to policy lynching and the Raising to the Hand of the King.

Xtotm:
Xtotm wrote: On the whole, liking GreyICE.
Why?

Raivann:
Raivann wrote: Too agreeable and nice too. The part where she is agreeing with MoI is scum chatting with each other.
Where has Magna responded to her? Do you think that Magna is scum too?

I'd like to add my name to the list of people who aren't impressed with Mikujin's posting, but I have nothing new to add on the subject.


Bunnylover:
Bunny wrote: Vote: DGB
I have to be in agreeance with GreyICE at the moment. You only know your alignment and no one else's alignment, so self raising is actually the only logical move at the moment.
This is a weak vote.


diddin:
diddin wrote: Meta cases on Page 3? lol no
Well, I agree with this statement, but I also think that serious votes help lynch scum more than joke votes, so I don't think that it is scummy to try to construct a case early in the game. The scummyiness depends more on how the case develops over the day.
diddin wrote: Not liking GreyICE at all. His talk about having everyone vote him is nonsense for the hand raising. The Hand ability DOES, in fact, have uses for us whether it goes to town or not. Now that the mod has confirmed scum cannot use it for instawin LYLO, it gives us more information by giving it to out biggest townread than a guy shouting HEY I'M TOWN I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG MAKE ME THE HAND.

Post 88 is a weak attack too. Using lame Wiki tells like IIoA and not liking someone's use of stats while not explaining WHY the stats are bad at all. If anything calling Magna on IIoA is hypocritical because your post contained little ANALYSIS of MoI's statistics.
I think this is a very weak attack on GreyICE.

If anything, I think his early play is townish because I don't think that scum would be that willing to bring themselves front and center early. I think writing off people's arguments for using wiki-tells is bad play, especially when it come to IIoA. Despite it being a wiki-tell, it is still something that scum tends to do more than town simply because it is a convenient way to look active without getting your hands dirty. Similarly, I think that accusing someone of being scum for using a wiki-tell in a case is a pathetic attack on the person.

The final attack that GreyICE is being hypocritical for not analysis MoI's statistics is also a fairly poor attack, since GreyICE did analyze them, and determined that they told us nothing.

Finally, I would like to say that I am in agreement with Magua about diddin's argument against him and his behaviour around the comment that "ITT having town-reads is scummy."

I'd be okay with lynching diddin at the moment.

Twilight Sparkle wrote: What are your reads on GreyICE and MoI?
To summarize them, my immediate impression is that GreyICE is probably town because of his willingness to draw attention to himself. I would say that there is a pretty good chance that his behaviour is indicative of overly aggressive town rather than scum. However, I think his attacks on DGB and his subsequent unvote are both so weak that should DGB be scum, my suspicions of GreyICE would increase.

I am leaning scum on MoI.

Here's why:
GreyICE:


GreyICE starts the game by throwing himself from and center by voting to raise himself after DGB had threatened to vig the next person to raise themselves. Now, I didn't believe DGB, and clearly neither did GreyICE, but I sort of doubt that scum would have had the nerve to do that because their lives are some how more precious than ours.

It should be clear that I don't agree with GreyICE's proposed use of the Hand, but that certainly doesn't make him scum. However, he makes many arguments that I think are far from convincing.

For instance, his vote for DGB:
GreyICE wrote: Vote: DrippingGoofball
Okay, unless we have masons out there, most townies know one person with their alignment. Scum know multiple people with their alignment. They can nominate a 'pro-town' scum and wagon them up to governor.

EXPLAIN THIS VERY INSTANT WHY IT IS ANTI-TOWN TO NOMINATE YOURSELF. DO IT.

Now I am serious: If you raise me governor today I will not use the power. A non-confirmed town governor is too dangerous to be allowed to use their powers day 1, and I am not going to do it. Even if you guys are going to retard lynch an obvtown, I might yell at you - but I won't use the powers.
This does not contain a single argument for why DGB should be scum.

He continues to push for DGB lynch with
GreyICE wrote: Also Goofball vote is serious. I'm getting the feeling Goofball came swinging out day 1 with a gameplan and the self voting threw a spanner in the works. Look at the first post in the thread.

Goofball is flailing coming up for explanations on why it's anti-town. I want to see her thoughts and her thoughts alone here.
Both the the accusations of her coming out swinging and of flailing seem like BS to me.

He also attacks DGB with
GreyICE wrote: DGB has done nothing to foster discussion, and attempted to call it off. Everything since then has apparently been an attempt to play off having a 'sarcastic' meta. Lets ask a simple question, using Scumage's example of apparent "Village Idiots:" would Chesskid be given a pass for similar behavior? Oh, no? Why are we giving her a pass? She's scum, got called on it, and is trying to get her way out of it on this meta bullshit.
But he unvotes very easily:
GreyICE wrote: Holy shit, it posts content! And decent content. Unvote
when all DGB did was post a list of reads.

Then he votes again DBG, almost immediately, because of how she misremembered hasd's old role, which isn't a terrible reason for a vote.

I'd also like to say that I disagree with the foundation of his argument why he should be elected Hand:
GreyICE wrote:
Kast wrote:I'm curious though, if you really think it's such an evil/bad/anti-town power, then why the hell are you asking to be made Governor instead of forming a coalition to force a tie and eliminate it?
Yeaaaahhhh. So lets see, I need a majority to agree to give me the power to keep it out of the hands of anyone who will misuse it, but any single townie could put it into someone's hands with one vote/unvote at the end of the day?

Yeah, fuck that noise. We wouldn't need a majority, we'd need a total consensus.
If you can achieve your goal of having total consensus, then you can also achieve the goal of forcing people people to award it to no one, under the threat of lynching anyone who votes to prevent your plan from working.

MoI:


I think that MoI's statistical analysis was pointless, and I am surprised that he posted it. It makes me feel like he was trying to appear active. I also think that MoI is smart enough to know that the variance that we can expect between individual players is so great that there would be little to gain from such an analysis. Similarly, I feel that MoI's complaint that the statistics are now worthless is an attempt to seem pro-town. I dislike it first of all because I don't think that there was ever any information to be gained from his statistics about self-raising, but additionally that it seems to be very superficial in the sense that if there ever was anything to gained from this analysis, that it should still be possible to gain information because patterns in who people decide to raise as the day progresses should still be present regardless of initial differences in how the votes were cast.
MoI wrote: 1. Throwing a wikitell and throwing in profanity to show how ‘passionnate’ you are doesn’t make your flawed arguments more compelling.
2. Once again you posit a Strawman by stating that mislynches were going to flow from the data when IN MY POST I SAID IT WASN’T USEABLE THIS GAME.
I think attack people for using wiki-tells is pretty poor, and in this case it was IIoA.

I agree with Magna that GreyICE did present his argument incorrectly and as a strawman. However, I agree with GreyICE that it was unlikely that anything could have ever been gained from Magna's analysis.

I'm having a hard time deciding if this is GreyICE as town being overly aggressive or GreyICE as scum not caring about scum hunting and perfectly happy to keep the game focused on the statistics.
Magna wrote: How again is DGB pushing hard for Cow’s lynch when she is voting for LMP again?
When I've played with MoI as scum, he has definitely been guilty of taking the exact phrasing of someone's statement and using it against him. I feel that he is doing that to GreyICE here. It's not an unreasonable question, but considering that DGB has placed hasd on her scum list, it's a question about an exaggeration that GreyICE is making (one which I don't think has a scum motivation, unless as I said before DGB and GreyICE are scum together an this is all part of a gambit) rather than one about something that he is saying that is completely wrong.

I strongly doubt that Twilight is scum, so I'm going to
Unvote
now.
Vote: diddin
Raise: Benmage
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Post Post #346 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:09 am

Post by Zdenek »

Unraise

It just occurred to me that I don't like the look of the wagon to raise benmage. If I had a stronger read on benmage, I'd be willing to vote for him, but for now
Raise Twilight Sparkle
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Post Post #347 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:25 am

Post by GreyICE »

Zdenek - I hold that seeing who is willing to campaign for the Hand is far more helpful to the town than seeing who we can push the hand onto. Look at what is happening right now. What reads do we have from Sparky as a result of this? Anything? Anything at all? No. Sparky hasn't said how they'll use the hand. Sparky hasn't said how they view the hand. We're just going to hand it to someone on that basis?

I think that is horribly, horribly anti-town. I've been saying that from the beginning. I want to see any candidate for hand outside of maybe hascow (it would amuse me to make Payne the hand, and also keep him in the spotlight) tell us that they want the position, and tell us what they'll do with the position.

I've seen many people say that they don't like what I'd do with the hand power. Well and good. Tell us what YOU would do with it and why we should give it to you, and I'll consider it. I consider the entire idea of giving the hand to some random person stuff and nonsense. Come out and tell me why you should get it, and then I'd consider it. Period. DGB is scummy to suggest otherwise, always has been, always will be. "Durr, lets give it to someone who hasn't even shown they want it, that's pro-town..." Yeah, no.
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Post Post #348 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:56 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Back from my V/LA –
diddin wrote:Also Magua never said he thought Sparkle was town. He just said he thought their reads would be similar, and as such, Sparkle would use the governor ability in a way Magua likes.
Magua clearly implied that by mimicking his own thought processes (which Magua implicitly is claiming is a Town perspective) his read on Sparkle was Town. Attacking him for not explicitly saying such when it was clearly implied by the writing and Raise vote itself is scummy.

--
Twilight wrote:That condescending attitude helps no one. Yes, this is a game about reading, but that doesn't mean that it's equally easy, enjoyable, or useful to give us giant walls. If I were to write all of my posts in Pig Latin, it is obvious I could not take recourse in the "this is a written game" defense; but oftentimes slogging through a large wall is equally as annoying as deciphering Pig Latin. I wouldn't say it in the overly aggressive way GreyICE phrased it ("fuck you, I'm not reading that!"), but all the same, I think it's worth saying that you absolutely do have an obligation as town to try to make your thoughts as readable as possible, and concision is a very helpful tool to that end.
We are going to have to agree to disagree if you are asserting my posting is difficult to read. I don’t think it is … the Pig Latin analogy isn’t applicable at all, IMO. My posting style is my style. I’m not going to change. If you find that lynch worthy please make your best effort to try to achieve your goal.

As for the condescension – I’m simply indulging my (bad) personal habit of treating others as they treat me. GreyICE was similarly condescending before my post. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.
Twilight wrote:Explain how this:
Gels with this:
I have played with Benmage-Town many times in the past. I feel I have a good sense of how he plays as such. His demeanour and play so far this game give me a Town read on him. And when we are Town together I’ve found we can work well.

The ‘faking a Guilty’ comment has to do with Gorrad’s recently ended Large game. Late in the game Ben, as a Cop, fake a guilty on a player he had a scum-read on. The player ended up being Town. Suffice it to say I wasn’t pleased with that play. Read the game if you like. Outside of Fate he was the only player (up until that gambit) that I trusted in terms of reads and judgement.

That gambit that blew up in his face is the source of my comment. It isn’t something that erases multiple other instances of my belief that Benmage can be a strong Pro-Town force.
Twilight wrote:Also, to the town at large: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?
I have to say I don’t simply for the inherent relational information that can be drawn from it. I don’t think handcuffing a player who achieves a >50% Town read is logical. And I highly doubt said Governor power is going to make it to a LYLO situation.

--
xvart wrote:MoI expanded in post 84, but the question now is why all the bravado on how solid Benmage's observation was about how VIs can destroy town chances later in the game? And why wasn't it mentioned that you don't actually support lynching VIs unless they are scummy?
As stated before … the point I was reinforcing (which was not intended to be Benmage’s rant) was not that VIs should be immediately lynched but that VIs who play scummy and are left for the end of the game based solely on the “he’s a VI” are a danger to Town regardless of their alignment.

Do you disagree with my stance? I can show you examples of VIs who were Town submarining Town in endgame and also examples of VIs who were Scum who managed to skate through to the end and win just using the VI Shield.

--

@Zdenek
– I’ll ask you to elaborate on one portion of your case –
Zdenek wrote:When I've played with MoI as scum, he has definitely been guilty of taking the exact phrasing of someone's statement and using it against him
You haven’t ever played with me in a game when I was Town. Did you bother to look to see if my posting style was radically different when I was Town?
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Post Post #349 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:05 am

Post by Magua »

MagnaofIllusion wrote:Back from my V/LA –
diddin wrote:Also Magua never said he thought Sparkle was town. He just said he thought their reads would be similar, and as such, Sparkle would use the governor ability in a way Magua likes.
Magua clearly implied that by mimicking his own thought processes (which Magua implicitly is claiming is a Town perspective) his read on Sparkle was Town. Attacking him for not explicitly saying such when it was clearly implied by the writing and Raise vote itself is scummy.
Diddin is correct. I don't have a townread on Twilight Sparkle. I do believe that if Twilight Sparkle is town, they and I will have similar reads (eg, we both have a townread on GreyICE). So if Twilight is town, I would expect they would use the governor similar to how I would. If they use it otherwise, then that's a good indication for me that they're scum.

tl, dr: I'm using raising to get a read, not using reads to determine who to raise.

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