A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Mikujin]

Shadow seems new and silly (and is another one of those guys dropping "Aww shucks I'm not scum!" lines).

I think I've only seen the "dammit I'm not scum" once. What is your experience with this? Is it indicative of alignment?

It's largely a null tell but varies based on individual player. I've very little experience with most of the dudes here, so it's hard to say whether it readily points towards scummitude or not. It's just not something I'm fond of seeing.

You're not telling me in 14 pages there are no scum reads. I don't want town reads, town reads are easy for the scum to fake. You're over apologetic, you're not commenting on anyone's behavior, you're not scumhunting. And I think it's because you're scum and just taking the easy way out and hoping we let you slide because there's other shiny toys to play with.

Garbage. Garbage, garbage, garbage. I am not interested, I want to know who you would lynch and way. Not this 'standing back and not taking responsibility for our lynch.' Tell me your reads, and we'll see what we want to do with them.

There aren't any reads that I'd say are definite indications of scum; there are people I am wary of and distrust (DBG for example), and there are people I just plain don't like (you for example). Simply because my play differs from what you want or expect is hardly grounds for calling it garbage. If you think you're going to bully me into doing something (similar to DBG's demand of hascow) you're just plain wrong.

A quick skim of your ISO in Newbie 959 goes against this line of thought. I see you replaced in and even placed a player at Lynch-1. There also seems to be a number of other votes placed that goes against the whole “I like to with hold my vote” line you are touting here.

What's the difference between then and now?

Oh, I dunno, about 10 months? I've played exactly two games on Mafiascum (959 and Clash of Kings). I do play elsewhere, but I'd hardly consider play drawn from nearly a year ago relevant content - especially given that two games is hardly a sample size worth analyzing.

We're nowhere near a lynch. Your vote is not set in stone. Vote. This goes for Xtoxm, as well.

Once again, if you think you're going to bully me into doing what you want, you can think again. I've got a spine, and a head on my shoulders. I'll vote when I'm confident in the one I'm making.

Expect another post this evening when I'm home from work.

[Magua]

Once again, if you think you're going to bully me into doing what you want, you can think again. I've got a spine, and a head on my shoulders. I'll vote when I'm confident in the one I'm making.

Voting is how town lynches scum. Voting tracks your top suspicion, which forces scum to take positions that they have to account for later. Voting is protown.

Fencesitting, indecisiveness, "No one strikes me as particularly scummy," and "I'm going to see how things go before I act" are all antitown.

There should not need to be an argument about why you should act protown instead of antitown.

[Kast]

@LL, 301-
Dislike this. LL jumping aboard a non-case like this seems out of character. GreyIce's initial objection is more pushing stupid cases as he has been doing all game and seems to be his norm. It may be a scum indicator for some; but GreyIce is so obviously overreacting, jumping around, and not showing serious effort to convincing others to follow through his thoughts, that my gut read is he's a bit ADD.

@Xvart, 320-
This doesn't really read like xvart's scum meta; I'd expect xvart scum to jump aboard one of GreyIce's nonsense cases.

Kast (Post 144) - What would prevent us from lynching scum later? From my experience it becomes increasingly difficult to lynch VIs later in the game either because town cannot afford to mislynch or there are other targets. I don't see how the dichotomy works in the given example.

If you read the context, the claim was that we would be unable to lynch

SCUMMY

VIs later. Unless you can point out some reason being a VI makes us unable to lynch a scummy player that does not equally apply to a non-VI scummy player, then the situations should apply equivalently. The reasons you listed don't apply to a scummy VI and only address lynching a VI for it's own sake.

And to the contrary, if town is stuck deciding between equally scummy players, but one is ALSO a VI, then that's even more reason to lynch the VI. A competent scum can't afford to directly hurt/screw the town the same way a scum with a VI "free pass" can.

What I don't get is why he would antagonize another player like that, over something so trivial.

You realize he is arguing with MoI? Many players get quite antagonized when they get stuck in the middle of an argument with MoI; both scum and town.

@DGB-
Is there a point in asking him to break his post restriction?

@Zoraster, 330-
Lol, I was considering voting LL, but your post is kinda annoying, so I'll wait on that

This question by Kast looks like carefully disguised mudslinging.

You should clarify what you mean by mudslinging, because by any standard usage, you are misapplying the term.

@Governor Power-
If a majority of town prefers that it be burned immediately, then it would be nice if the Governor respects that. I don't think it matters; certainly the end-game doom scenarios that have been used to push for that proposal could all be avoided much more easily by town not being stupid and taking action if we approach one of those doom scenarios.

Also, if we have a competent townie Governor, scum will likely kill the governor before the power can harm them. If we have a scum Governor, then using it in a scummy manner reveals him.

@Magua/Voting-
It's too early to be whining that everyone who is not currently voting is anti-town. Also, your post isn't really a fair/relevant response since he very explicitly stated he would place a vote. Also, to be clear, it sounds like you're reacting with a public service announcement against a playstyle/behavior you dislike; is that correct or are you claiming Mikujin's behavior says anything about him (or is otherwise relevant)?

[GreyICE]

There aren't any reads that I'd say are definite indications of scum; there are people I am wary of and distrust (DBG for example), and there are people I just plain don't like (you for example). Simply because my play differs from what you want or expect is hardly grounds for calling it garbage. If you think you're going to bully me into doing something (similar to DBG's demand of hascow) you're just plain wrong.

I'm not going to bully anyone. I'm going to lynch you. There is such a very big difference. Who told you in the QT that you shouldn't give out reads because you're really bad at faking them and are going to give away the rest of your scumteam?

[zoraster]

Fine, Kast.

VOTE: Kast

[chesskid3]

I see the Twilight raisewagon, and I refuse to join it. Probably town, but bad governor.

[Bunnylover]

@Locke: No, I am just useless in the beginning. But I do agree with you, I need to get off my ass and start doing shit.
The more I think about it, the more I am believing that Has post restriction is in fact fake, scum have safe claim, and Ilyn Payne is his/her safe claim.

Unvote, Vote hasdgfas

@Xvart: I think Benmage had posted a list of people he considered VI's, so in retrospect I thought you were agreeing with that list.

@Zedenk: Forgive me, but I am kinda confused. You are leaning scum on MoI, yet you are voting for Diddin which MoI is currently voting for. My Scum read is voting for this person, by my logic I wouldn't vote that said person too (or at least not on the first day).

@MoI: What counts as buddying to you?

[Raivann]

Re governor: how about raising a sensible vanilla townie read? I'm thinking chess or shadow.
It gives the scum one more PR to deal with.

[zoraster]

Re governor: how about raising a sensible vanilla townie read? I'm thinking chess or shadow.
It gives the scum one more PR to deal with.

...chess is dead. I assume we can't raise him.

[zoraster]

Re governor: how about raising a sensible vanilla townie read? I'm thinking chess or shadow.
It gives the scum one more PR to deal with.

...chess is dead. I assume we can't raise him.

Nevermind. I'm dumb.

[Shadow1psc]

What makes you think either of us is vanilla? I agree with the logic that giving it to a vanilla just makes for more NK fodder to draw away from what real power town may have, but we can't really narrow down who that is without also narrowing down scum's list of who not to shoot. Powerfishing?

[chesskid3]

Protip: If people want to believe you are vanilla, let them.

[Shadow1psc]

Protip: If people want to believe you are vanilla, let them.

Obviously, BUT, that was a roundabout way of pointing out that it's stupid to try and fish out a vanilla to pin it to, because everyone (smart) is either gonna claim vanilla, or stay quiet, and in either case narrow down the pool of people scum should be shooting.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.10

DrippingGoofball (1) Bunnylover
xvart (1) Song of Ice and Fire
Mikujin (3) Danakillsu, GreyICE, Locke Lamora
LynchMePls (1) DrippingGoofball
GreyICE (3) LynchMePls, Nexus, Shadow1psc
Song of Ice and Fire (2) Raivann, Twilight Sparkle

diddin (5) Magua, chesskid3, MagnaofIllusion, xvart, Zdenek

danakillsu (1) Benmage
Magua (1) diddin
Kast (1) Zoraster
Hasdgfas (1) Bunnylover

Not voting (6) Percy, Xtoxm, Feysal, Kast, hasdgfas, Mikujin

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch.

Raise Count 1.10

Locke Lamora (1) Locke Lamora
Hasdgfas (2) GreyICE, Feysal

Twilight Sparkle (4) Magua, Bunnylover, xvart, LynchMePls, Zdenek

DrippingGoofball (2) Danakillsu,Raivann
Danakillsu (1) chesskid3
Benmage (4) Benmage, Song of Ice and Fire, MagnaofIllusion, diddin
Magua (2) LynchMePls, Hasdgfas

Not raising (11)Nexus, Percy, Xtoxm, Zdenek, Zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, DrippingGoofball, Kast, Shadow1psc, Mikujin

With 25 alive it takes 13 to raise someone

*Any mistakes in the votecount PLEASE point them out. God knows it'd not be the first time I made a mistake.
* Song of Ice and Fire may be replaced if she doesn't post soon.
* Nexus is V/La
* Deadline countdown is here

[danakillsu]

@mod

In this votecount and the last, you have had two separate lynch wagons on Mikujin.

NOT ANYMORE I DON'T

@xvart

I found DGB's arguments more solid and convincing. What's your issue here, anyway? This just seems like a weird buddying of Zoraster. I should try to remember that if either of you flips scum.

[Magua]

@Magua/Voting-
It's too early to be whining that everyone who is not currently voting is anti-town. Also, your post isn't really a fair/relevant response since he very explicitly stated he would place a vote. Also, to be clear, it sounds like you're reacting with a public service announcement against a playstyle/behavior you dislike; is that correct or are you claiming Mikujin's behavior says anything about him (or is otherwise relevant)?

He said he would place a vote when he's "confident", which is useless as a timeline.

As for the "playstyle": it is not simply that I dislike the playstyle (though I do); it is that not placing votes is definitively antitown in the same way that lurking is antitown, and it is to our benefit to get people to stop playing in an antitown fashion -- if they're town, it helps us to not mislynch them, and if they're scum, it helps the relationships between them.

It's the exact same argument about lurkers. It is to our benefit to get them to stop lurking.

Furthermore, the history of the quotes:

Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut.

We're nowhere near a lynch. Your vote is not set in stone. Vote. This goes for Xtoxm, as well.

Once again, if you think you're going to bully me into doing what you want, you can think again. I've got a spine, and a head on my shoulders. I'll vote when I'm confident in the one I'm making.

This sort of cautious play tends to be scum-motivated because they want to keep their options open down the line, so the whole thing makes me wary. The "bully me into doing what you want" also feels wrong; it's very out of proportion, so it reads as defensive.

That said, I only have a mild scumread on Mikujin at this point, which is not as strong as the one I have on diddin.

[chesskid3]

Anyone voting for diddin is a friend of mine

[Kast]

@Zoraster-
Lol, looking for a place to park a low key vote?

Also, you didn't answer.

This sort of cautious play tends to be scum-motivated because they want to keep their options open down the line,

This is a load of BS. While the majority of players on this site tend to vote early despite having weak or non-existant reads, there's plenty of players, both town and scum, who play cautiously with their votes ESPECIALLY on D1. Your claim that scum are disproportionately more likely to engage in this behavior is unjustified.

[Magua]

This sort of cautious play tends to be scum-motivated because they want to keep their options open down the line,

This is a load of BS. While the majority of players on this site tend to vote early despite having weak or non-existant reads, there's plenty of players, both town and scum, who play cautiously with their votes ESPECIALLY on D1. Your claim that scum are disproportionately more likely to engage in this behavior is unjustified.

Do you agree or disagree that indecisiveness, fence-sitting, and not placing votes are antitown?

[zoraster]

Didn't answer what?

[Kast]

Nvm that, mixed you up with Zdenek.

[Zdenek]

GreyICE, if the Hand of the King is so anti-town, then why do you expect that someone who is pro-town would campaign to get it? Do you think that it is possible for someone to campaign for the Hand on grounds that are different from yours and still be pro-town?

You haven’t ever played with me in a game when I was Town. Did you bother to look to see if my posting style was radically different when I was Town?

I've looked at your games in the past, and I don't think that your posting style is radically different depending on whether you're town or scum. As far as the particular issue mentioned in the quote above, is there a particular game that you would like to direct me to? It would be quite difficult for me to demonstrate that you never do something as town, but quite easy, I think, for you to provide evidence that you do.

Do you think that there is a scum motivation behind GreyICE's exaggeration? If you do, what is it?

You should clarify what you mean by mudslinging, because by any standard usage, you are misapplying the term.

You said that GreyICE was overreacting, paranoid and acting crazy. To me, all of these things paint him in a negative light, but none of them is particularly scummy, at least not in these circumstances. Doing that is what I am calling mudslinging.

Zedenk: Forgive me, but I am kinda confused. You are leaning scum on MoI, yet you are voting for Diddin which MoI is currently voting for. My Scum read is voting for this person, by my logic I wouldn't vote that said person too (or at least not on the first day).

There are probably multiple scum teams, so I don't really see why there should be any confusion at all, but additionally, my feelings about Magna are comparatively weak those about diddin.

The more I think about it, the more I am believing that Has post restriction is in fact fake,

Do you mind elaborating?

[diddin]

@Zdenek: The whole point is that Meta is a pretty crappy foundation to build a case on. It's almost as bad as the joke votes and it looked like Locke was reaching for straws to get DGB lynched. The point of my wikitell attack is it's a lame scumtell that makes someone like GreyICE look smart by calling it out. Besides MoI was not really using IIOA. He very definitely explained where the statistics were from and why they are useful. That's no Information instead of Analysis.

And yeah, ICE analyzed the stats a bit, but did you miss this post by Magna?

As for your datamining, it's obviously worthless. One player voted themselves instead of another, and it would be 40% scum voted self, 33% voted town. A swing of one person would reverse your so-called results. That's below the noise level, and no useful data can be gleaned except that scum are reasonably good at blending in with town - when there's no useful ability to be gleaned. That was true in CoK. Do I trust it's true here and now? No.

Dismissing that any possible information can be gleaned from information in a similar past game is short-sighted.

Honestly, I really want to kick you. A 25 person sample is nowhere near enough to get below noise on anything less than a 30-40% difference. I'm glad you brought it up now, because there's a chance you could derail a scum wagon with an argument that fucking poor. If you have any more terrible statistics that are below noise level, please don't share them with us.

Did you miss the part where I said the real important data would be mined at a deeper level? Ok thanks. And the little strawman you throw out here about ‘derailing a scum wagon’ is noted. You are pre-supposing how the information would be used when there is no evidence that it would be used in that manner. Especially since, as I said in that post, the likely relevant trends from Clash have been rendered useless the discussion already.

I notice you didn't address my response to your statement that your all-caps statement about scum seeking to raise Partners. Do you really think they would go out of the way to immedaitely draw links to each other?

Was a rebuttal of ICE's original comments. Yet all ICE did in his reply to that was sling mud at MoI.

Besides HE IS GETTING A LOT OF ATTENTION D1 HE MUST BE TOWN is pure, pure WIFOM.

The fact that you think I'm scum for attacking one of your townreads is utter crap and gets you a big fat

FoS

.

Back from my V/LA –

Also Magua never said he thought Sparkle was town. He just said he thought their reads would be similar, and as such, Sparkle would use the governor ability in a way Magua likes.

Magua clearly implied that by mimicking his own thought processes (which Magua implicitly is claiming is a Town perspective) his read on Sparkle was Town. Attacking him for not explicitly saying such when it was clearly implied by the writing and Raise vote itself is scummy.

Diddin is correct. I don't have a townread on Twilight Sparkle. I do believe that if Twilight Sparkle is town, they and I will have similar reads (eg, we both have a townread on GreyICE). So if Twilight is town, I would expect they would use the governor similar to how I would. If they use it otherwise, then that's a good indication for me that they're scum.

tl, dr: I'm using raising to get a read, not using reads to determine who to raise.

Thank you for answering this, all the people white-knighting for you was starting to get annoying.

This question was not part of my case on you. I was purely curious.

By the way, what is your opinion/defense of your contradiction that I caught?

P-Edit: I fail to see how "I agree with this guy on a few points but since he attacked one of my townreads he's scum" is a stronger tell than what you presented against MoI, Zdenek.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, if the Hand of the King is so anti-town, then why do you expect that someone who is pro-town would campaign to get it? Do you think that it is possible for someone to campaign for the Hand on grounds that are different from yours and still be pro-town?

Of course. It is very, very easy for town to disagree, especially on theory points like this. I've seen more scum pardoned by townies before though, and it does NOT make me happy.

If someone else wants to campaign, that's great, and I'll vote for them or not based on what they say. But it's ridiculous to hand the power to someone who doesn't tell us what they'll do with it and why they should have it.

[hasdgfas]

Nice choice, hascow is probscum. That old role might be the inspiration that gave him the idea that he could get away with a lot of nonsense by faking a post restriction.

I WANT TO SEE

HASCOW

BREAK THE POST RESTRICTION IN HIS NEXT POST.

hasdgfas' posts make my head hurt. Specifically #281.

*raises eyebrow*

*points at Magua*

*points at self*

We're just going to hand it to someone on that basis?

*nods head*

------------------------------------------------

VOTE: Xtoxm
*points at Xtoxm*
*points at mouth*
*spreads hands wide*