Newbie 1052 - Endgame

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #475 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:40 pm

Post by theplague42 »

Um, it's completely visible IMO. I didn't pick a size too small that it couldn't be easily seen or read, but I wanted it for humorous effect. Don't be so nit-picky. But I'll asked Drench out of respect for the rules.

@Drench
Is the small text above okay? I didn't think it was that small to elicit any concern. Feel free to change it if it is too small.

Lol: "it if it is." :nerd:
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Post Post #476 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:44 pm

Post by Mute »

I only raise the point because I'm not gonna strain my eyes by squinting to try and read that.
:dead:
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Post Post #477 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:46 pm

Post by Drench »

The Fourteenth Vote Count - ha, i get it because you were already voting for himtheplague42
Neuky
Mute - 2 - Workdawg, theplague42
Workdawg
Sundy
sordros
Concerned - 2 - Sundy, sordros

No Lynch

Not Voting - 2 - Concerned, Mute, Neuky

With seven alive, it's four to lynch!

Day Two's deadline expires on the 2nd of March at 10:46pm AEDST (GMT+11).


I'll let Mute's small-text hilarity pass, but that's about as small as I'll allow.

OH MEANT TO SAY PLAGUE, WHOOPSIES. THERE'S NOTHING HILARIOUS ABOUT MUTE'S REACTION AT ALL IS THERE.
Last edited by Drench on Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #478 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:18 pm

Post by Workdawg »

I can read it.
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Post Post #479 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:24 pm

Post by Mute »

Workdawg wrote:I can read it.
You've eyes more diligent than I.
Sorry, it's not just within the confines of this game, a personal thing with you plague, or anyone else, I hate micro-text. I do other things that require me to over-focus my eyesight, so I don't need any unneeded strain on them to further the process of my eyesight going with old age.
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Post Post #480 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:35 am

Post by Workdawg »

Just copy/paste text into another textbox and it should show up full size...

anyway... anyone else have any thoughts here?
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Post Post #481 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:39 am

Post by sordros »

Mute wrote:Plague please make that micro-text readable. It's up to the moderator's discretion but rule 7 comes into mind.
And yes I hope it will be substantial as well. I'll be doing a page-by-page analysis instead of an individual review of players.. which is to say I'll be reviewing everyone from page to page.

By the way, What of you formerly famous list? is it up to date? Care to share some ratings on your top suspects?
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Post Post #482 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:43 am

Post by Sundy »

I guess Mute doesn't feel sufficient pressure from the arguments made against him.

I can fix that.

VOTE: Mute


That's L-1, people.
Town: 7-4
Scum: 2-2
TBD: 3
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Post Post #483 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:09 am

Post by theplague42 »

sordros wrote:
Mute wrote:Plague please make that micro-text readable. It's up to the moderator's discretion but rule 7 comes into mind.
And yes I hope it will be substantial as well. I'll be doing a page-by-page analysis instead of an individual review of players.. which is to say I'll be reviewing everyone from page to page.

By the way, What of you formerly famous list? is it up to date? Care to share some ratings on your top suspects?
Especially since a good part of D1 was spent debating the merits of the table (or lack thereof). I think he only posted it once after the initial demonstration.
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Post Post #484 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:08 am

Post by Neuky »

Another L-1 then?

What is apparent with Mute is the change in strategy - from tunnelling Dawg, then switching to a lynch lurkers policy, before hammering Stels to avoid another wagon dissolving, to the new announcement in day 2 that TP is now his chief suspect. There is also a change in attitude, less logical, and dare I say, less interested?.. If he is scum, perhaps he realises how big a struggle it would be for him to avoid the next 3 lynches to achieve his win condition?

I was hoping someone could have asked Mute to produce the chart immediately, if they noticed him online - that could have been interesting, but otherwise I'm not too fussed - I'll settle for the promised page by page analysis...
Played 2 - won as town 0 - lost as town 2 - won as scum 0 - lost as scum 0 - Yep, I'm doing that well...
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Post Post #485 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:15 pm

Post by Workdawg »

That's the impression I've been getting from him too, Neuky. As the game has progressed, he's definitely seemed to become a lot more apathetic. If he's got a lot going on in his life, then that's understandable, but he also just mentioned playing a couple other games too...

:/
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Post Post #486 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:50 pm

Post by Concerned »

Please don't hammer before I have a chance to say anything.
My varsity internet was down the whole of yesterday but I'm going to post in 2 hours or so after lectures.

From what I remember mute didn't come across as scum to me.
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Post Post #487 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:23 am

Post by Drench »

The Fifteenth Vote Count - Oh Snaptheplague42
Neuky
Mute - 3 - Workdawg, theplague42, Sundy
Workdawg
Sundy
sordros
Concerned - 1 - sordros

No Lynch

Not Voting - 3 - Concerned, Mute, Neuky

With seven alive, it's four to lynch!

Day Two's deadline expires on the 2nd of March at 10:46pm AEDST (GMT+11).
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Post Post #488 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:32 am

Post by sordros »

Concerned wrote:Please don't hammer before I have a chance to say anything.
My varsity internet was down the whole of yesterday but I'm going to post in 2 hours or so after lectures.

From what I remember mute didn't come across as scum to me.
Sounds good. I'd really like to hear your input.
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Post Post #489 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:29 am

Post by Workdawg »

Agreed with sordos... would definitely like to hear some reasons NOT to lynch Mute, since he doesn't seem to be interested in providing them himself.
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Post Post #490 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:22 am

Post by theplague42 »

Still nothing new until Mute and Concerned fulfill their promises. I'm more interested in what Concerned has to say, coming in as a replacement at this point in the game. It'll be nice to get some fresh views on stuff.
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Post Post #491 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:44 pm

Post by Concerned »

Bare with me. I'm doing a complete reread and some of you guys like to talk a lot (my predecessor included :P)
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Post Post #492 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:10 am

Post by sordros »

Concerned wrote:Bare with me. I'm doing a complete reread and some of you guys like to talk a lot (my predecessor included :P)
That's completely understandable. I had to go through it myself.

Interesting to see that Mute is still not around. I'm tempted to hammer just to get the game going.
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Post Post #493 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:58 am

Post by Workdawg »

It's been over 2 days since he last showed up, and a week since he's actually posted anything related to the game.

I'd like to wait to see what concerned has to say first, but I wouldn't be opposed to lynching Mute before he comes back if it takes him much longer.
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Post Post #494 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:59 am

Post by Workdawg »

EBWOP: The first sentence there is about Mute, in reply to sordos... if that's not clear.
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Post Post #495 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:45 am

Post by Concerned »

Phew that was a mission, firstly a little introduction as to my experience with mafia:
I've completed 6 games on Mafia Scum including 4 newbies and 2 mini's, although most of the games were lost on the old forum.
I've also played more games than I can count on another gaming forum and am a moderator there although I do acknowledge the world of difference between mafia scum games and games on other forums which tend to be slightly more oriented around power roles.
For those of you who didn't read above my timezone is +2 and I'm generally very busy in the morning and evenings so my activity times are
usually
in the afternoon or after 8PM at night.

In terms of my actual posts it is unlikely I will post big detailed walls analyzing every post a person has made as I've seen enough of those types of cases to have very little faith in them (I will elaborate more on this when I am discussing the mute/workdawg exchange). That said this post will probably be fairly long as I have to catch up with 20 odd pages of content.

Anyway on to the game, a very interesting one I might add and one thing that I feel hasn't got enough attention is the fact that you lynched scum on day 1, this puts us in an extremely good position and those responsible deserve a pat on the back. It means we could potentially mis-lynch twice and the game will be reduced to 3 players before the scum even have a shot at victory.

On to player analysis (in the order they occur to me):

Mute

So far I believe he has played fairly town and the current cases on him aren't particularly valid. The whole early table argument was a complete waste of time, I don't have a problem with him hammering stels and the current trend of players accusing him of "jumping on the wagon to appear more town" is ridiculous because anyone with half a brain could see this would have the opposite effect.
The argument between him and workdawg seemed very town vs town to me, each player stretching for good reasoning but mostly coming up with rubbish. Even having said that I think mute had far better points as workdawg did some pretty idiotic things in the early stages of the game and mute was frankly quite justified in his suspicion.
Lastly I would like to mention that stels was quite vocal about getting mute lynched at one point fairly early on the wagon (I think he was third?) and in a manner that I don't see as bussing at all. It appeared to me that stels was more trying to make an opportunistic leap onto a townie.
I am perfectly willing to defend my above stance should be wish me to.
To finalize I find mute to be pro-town.


WorkDawg

As I said above he has done some stupid things and said some things that haven't made all that much sense but in the end I am definitely getting a noob town read from him. Certain things he say just ring true with what I have come to expect from eager noob town in the past. Tunneling, paranoia, perceiving meaning where there is none to be found - and lately his posts have improved dramatically. I feel like he is doing well lately apart from his continued tunneling on mute. As someone said (sundry?) I also find the fact that stels buddied him mercilessly to be more of a town tell than a scum tell, it's just to fekking obvious man. I don't believe a player of stels caliber would be blatant about it.
Further more Dawg's twilight reaction to the stels hammer to me seems genuine. I feel like he honestly believed a mistake had been made.
To finalize I find WorkDawg to be pro-town.


ThePlague

I disagree with a lot of his stances, I disagree with a lot of the things he's said, but there is little question in my mind that he is newb town for many many reasons.
If nothing but his complete lack of certainty. You get a feel for these things.
To finalize I find Plague to be pro-town.


Neuky

For the vast majority of the game I have found neuky to be town, I've liked his posts and agreed with many things he has said. He's come across very logical and well reasoned which is a stark contrast to some of the other players in this game. I didn't like the fact that he didn't vote for stels at the end of the last day but it does kind of fit with his slightly-reluctant to vote meta.
Also stels takes a stab at him right before he is lynched in what I believe was a desperate attempt to get a wagon started on someone else, agreeing with popular town opinion at the time.
I'm not absolutely certain about you, for the simple reason that you seem like the type of player who is smart enough to hide it well if you are scum but for now
I find neuky to be pro-town.



- To be continued (good stuff to follow) I have soccer practice. until later tonight.
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Post Post #496 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:08 am

Post by Concerned »

OK so as you may have guessed that means I believe the last of the two scum is in one of the two lurker slots by process of elimination.
I may not always find scum from the get go but I pride myself in good town reads.
The AngryScientist/Asano/Sundy slot looks the least scummy of those two. Asano said some things to make me suspicious, but the other two have seemed fairly clean. As for the Naben/Veridis/Sordas slot there is very little content from the slot and the only player the slot has attacked is one that I know for sure is pro-town. I'd like to see more indepth analysis from the slot in terms of all of the players and not just slot.

For what it's worth I think Ty did a very good job, the only marginally scummy thing he did was go for nacho early in the game and for those who have not played with town-nacho before (I have) his play style in the early stages of the game can be quite confusing, he always lays low towards the beginning of the game and usually really gets into his stride after a few lynches have been established.

Now I know me going after the lurkers may seem like a bit of a cop-out but considering we only have one scum remaining I think I may be onto something.
Since I can't really tear apart them due to their small amounts of content (I could make a case on asano but it could be dismissed as noob errors) I can still highlight my point in two ways firstly.

VoteCounts:

The first couple vote counts are largely irrelevant RVS related counts and I would say the first relevant one is votecount 4.
Drench wrote:
The Fourth Vote Count - replacements!theplague42
Neuky
Mute - 4 -
theplague42, Workdawg
,
Stels
,
asano234

Workdawg - 3 - Neuky, Mute, Ty
asano234
veridis
Stels
Ty
Nachomamma8

No Lynch

Not Voting - 2 - veridis, Nachomamma8

With nine alive, it's five to lynch!

Day One's deadline expires on the 8th of February at 11:07am AEDST (GMT+11).

This is one of the reasons why I feel mute is town, at this point we know stels is scum and here we see him jump onto the wagon before it even mute really looks like he is going down so I'm very reluctant to write it off as bussing. Asano also jumps onto this wagon citing "the table" as a reason, not justifying why he finds the table scummy but just saying the table itself is scummy. I'm inclined to view this as an opportunistic attempt following his scum buddy on a townie wagon.
Drench wrote:
The Twelfth Vote Count - Good Day, Good Sirtheplague42
Neuky - 1 - Stels
Mute
Workdawg
Sundy
veridis
Stels - 5 - Nachomamma8, Ty, theplague42, Sundy, Mute
Ty - 1 - veridis
Nachomamma8

Not Voting - 2 - Neuky, Workdawg


Live, from New York, it's Saturday night!


Stels, Mafia Goon, Lynched Day One


It is now Night. Any actions may now be sent. Day Two will commence in 72 hours. In addition, veridis is being prodded.
The next votecount of note is the hammer, here we have (at least in my view) three of the most townie players starting the wagon with Sundy and Mute following. I'm mostly posting this to illustrate that TY was more than willing to and indeed was one of the founding people on the stels wagon, in my opinion the final two wagoners
could
be bussing to get off a sinking ship but it's hard to credibly argue that TY would bus his scum buddy and push the wagon from such an early stage.

Stels Reads
Stels wrote:
Stels wrote: -Asano234: Null-read. You can't expect me to get a read on someone who posts fluff for about 80% of the time (sorry Asano234!). He has no opinion on the game so far, otherwise he would have added something to the thread. I mean, 11 pages already, may seem short, but with all the walls, I'm sure there's something that he can catch onto.

-Mute: Mixed read. Not a null-read, but it's either aggresive town, or arrogant scum. Case improved my read on him towards the town side, yet I still doubt him for now.

-Nachomamma8: Townish-vibe. Does his job, asks questions that actually get you thinking. A bit under-the-radar, but hey, a few others are too, including myself as well.

-Neuky: Townish-vibe, weird gut feeling though. Posts at regular intervals. Not too much information, but he does post some content. Generally, I think, the person who is under the radar for the most part.

-theplague42: Town. Probably one of my most solid reads into the game so far. Certain scummy elements early in the game, other than that, he's solid.

-Ty: Townish-Null. Sort of builds cases in his character profiles, but has gone quiet a bit (thank god, less walls). Under the radar, but has his issues IRL, I don't blame him.

-Veridis: Null. You have to understand me, 4 posts, but he piqued my interest here. He took a curious position here, went after Ty who we have forgotten about with an sort of logical POV. Have to see more for a definite read.

-Workdawg: Newb-town + scummy. My read hasn't changed much, but you appear more town now with the recent posts. Still doubt you with some stuff like "OMG, I painted a target on mah back! I'm gonna die tonight", just like Mute if he sees you flip scum.
I'm very glad nacho made stels do this before he flipped. Notice he basically gives everyone a town read except for the sordas/sundy slots, it's true that they didn't post much up until that point but the point is we KNOW stels was scum, that means he was in a unique position to know exactly who was town and who wasn't. At this point in the game mute and workdawg were the most likely to be lynched so I believe he gave them both a little "disclaimer" so he could jump on either wagon without excuse but to me stels is the type of player who wouldn't dare label his scum partner as a town read.


To summarise my thoughts I would bet that our last scum is in {Sordas, Sundy}. I come to this conclusion via process of elimination, some of the subtle things stels has said as well as the general attitude of the other players. If I am wrong I would say neuky would be the next most likely suspect. Neuky because of his slight unwillingness to be on the stels hammer at the end of day 1 and his "keeping under the radar attitude".

Please note that me reading the game from start to finish isn't going to help as much as the content that is posted from when I've joined the game. We still have enough lots of time today and potentially 2 mislynches to stuff up so I am very hopeful about our situation. Perhaps the first order of business is to make sure we aren't pursuing the wrong people.

I welcome any questions or comments.
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Post Post #497 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:06 am

Post by Workdawg »

@Concerned

I'm rather torn on what I think about your posts. I agree that it seems like a copout to accuse the replacement slots of being scum. I recently posted my thoughts about those slots. I feel like Sundy is town, but I'm still not really what to say about sordos. veridis gave a town vibe with his couple posts, but sordos hasn't really provided much content to speak of.

I don't feel like the CURRENT arguments against Mute are weak at all. Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?

I'm also curious about what you think about Ty's play up until you subbed in. You provided analysis of every other player but Ty. You mentioned his play, but didn't really say very much about it.

I think an analysis of his play would be most relevant from you. You know his role and would know the motivations behind his play. I'm not trying to get you to claim here, but you're in a unique position. You have a perspective we don't have on a slot that is currently under much scrutiny.

Maybe you can provide some thoughts on the things that have been said against him more recently. Maybe how you feel about this post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2766940
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Post Post #498 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:37 am

Post by Workdawg »

EBWOP: Also, you said something I find pretty suspicious above, but I want to see your response to my post before I show my hand.
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Post Post #499 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:38 am

Post by Sundy »

Workdawg, I'm interested that you asked for Concerned's view on Ty, because what stood out to me about his player analysis were his defenses of Ty:
Concerned wrote:For what it's worth I think Ty did a very good job, the only marginally scummy thing he did was go for nacho early in the game and for those who have not played with town-nacho before (I have) his play style in the early stages of the game can be quite confusing, he always lays low towards the beginning of the game and usually really gets into his stride after a few lynches have been established.
Concerned wrote:I'm mostly posting this to illustrate that TY was more than willing to and indeed was one of the founding people on the stels wagon, in my opinion the final two wagoners could be bussing to get off a sinking ship but it's hard to credibly argue that TY would bus his scum buddy and push the wagon from such an early stage.
I think the latter is a pretty good point and (if it's true when I go back to research it) would give Ty/Concerned town points. I'm a little concerned by the tone of the former... Concerned seems to be saying that Ty acted somewhat scummy but was justified. Why not just say he was justified given Nacho's behavior in the beginning of games?

Concerned, I disagree with your analysis of Mute. I don't think anybody's talking about the table anymore, except to ask that he post it again. Honestly, people just want him to post anything as he's dropped off the face of the earth. Reading the Mute/Dawg arguments made me side with Dawg, I thought Dawg obliterated his arguments on multiple occasions while under pressure (and often on FACTUAL grounds, as Mute was lying/mistaken about what Dawg had said), whereas a bit later in the game, Mute's reaction to pressure was to disappear. Dawg did some bad things, sure, but his response to pressure felt very forthright. I'd go back and look at Stels' treatment of Mute, but 3rd on the wagon isn't so early as to avoid the possibility of distancing, especially in an experienced player. Lastly, obviously it did cast suspicion for Mute to hammer in the way that he did, but his response to this suspicion indicates guilt to me-- I don't think he expected to get the reaction he'd get.

Nothing new about the stances on Dawg/Plague/Neuky, and I think a few other players have described Neuky as the least pro-town of these three before. I agree that Sordas needs to post more. Concerned's analysis of the bandwagons is good, but I disagree that Stels "basically gives everyone a town read" aside from the replacement slots, I think he's a lot more cautious/fence-sitting in several of his reads.

My gut response to Concerned's response overall (and I appreciate the substantive remarks) is that he doesn't have enough evidence to dismantle the Mute argument. Therefore I'm a little concerned (bahaha), by his defense of Mute, as it suggests to me that he may know something I don't.
Town: 7-4
Scum: 2-2
TBD: 3

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