Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[werewolf555]

Sounds like fate is pulling a lot out of his ass
VOTE: Fate

[Fishythefish]

Well, Yos is blatantly telling the truth about the track (which is fairly null, alignmentwise).

Two scenarios:
- Fate scum. Here, he was planning to stick his neck out all the way to avoid a Llama lynch. When Yos called him on not being the cop, he tried to confuse the issue, but Llama decided not to back him up. I struggle to believe this without Llamascum, and that scumteam really doesn't fit with the rest of the game to me. With Llamascum, it's still an enormous risk.
- Fate town. Here, he was so sure about Llama being a mislynch that he was prepared to lie about his role to avoid it. This is horrible. If there is any experienced player I'd believe it from, it's Fate, but the odds are so bad - bottom line is, what if there's a real cop? You're mislynched, the cop's shot, no information comes of it, and you're the cause of an autoloss.

So. Neither of those seems at all likely to me. Which is obviously a problem, as one of them is true.

I won't be coming back to the Yos wagon today. Pondering the situation atm.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well, I take off one day look what you guys have done. I'll start getting back up to speed.

[Fate]

Actually it was my intent to fakeclaim mason recruiter the whole time, hoping marble would play along to avoid a pointless mislynch, because I wasn't going to out a cop obviously, my gambits aren't that anti town.

As scum I don't gambit, and if I did I wouldn't try and setup a claim with a blatant softclaim on a popular mislynch, which would derail said mislynch.


Yosarian is saddeingly town, I can't believe he doesn't see the zero scum motives for my play, especially considering how many people had me read as town.
*shrug*

Let's lynch actual scum, kthx

[Yosarian2]

As scum I don't gambit, and if I did I wouldn't try and setup a claim with a blatant softclaim on a popular mislynch, which would derail said mislynch.


Yosarian is saddeingly town, I can't believe he doesn't see the zero scum motives for my play, especially considering how many people had me read as town.

Meh. You'd already successfully divided the town into a pro-Llama faction and an anti-Llama faction, and made yourself the leader of the pro-Lllama faction. If people had accepted your cop fakeclaim, and there was no reason to think they wouldn't have, then the anti-Llama faction would have fallen apart, and you could have led the town pretty much anywhere you wanted for the rest of the game without even being questioned.

Granted, you'd have to have pretty big balls to go for a gambit like that, but if it works your scum team probably wins.

I really don't believe that were ever intending to claim mason recruiter, and especially not that Fate-town would do that. If Llama is town, very low chance he goes along with your claim, most pro-town people don't lie. And if he does go along with your claim, there's a reasonable chance he's scum, in which case you've probably just screwed the town by making them think a scum is a confirmed innocent. Plus, if you had been planning to claim mason recruiter, you wouldn't have quoted the normal game whitelist, which does not include that role.

[Fate]

I was hoping it would've stayed in softclaim stage, yeah, and ill admit it wasn't one of my most well thought out gambit, but I REALLY think Marble is town, and I'm rarely wrong about town reads, and I knew id be dead tonight most likely, so I wanted todays lynch on MY terms

[Fate]

I quoted it to show you the plethora of roles besides cop and mason, and upon seeing no. Mason recruitrt listed began to wonder if that was EVEN. A normal role, nbut the thread wasn't listed in the wiki..so I didn't look

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am sincerely sorry guys, some stuff came up yesterday I hadn't planned for (nice things teehee) and I've just been busier than I anticipated. Picking up prod, reading thread, will have a good post ready for you all before bed.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Llamarble

I'm still thinking through the implications of all this, but first impression is that neither Fate or Llamarble is scum. Fate's "gambit" has been a long time in the making. Like since his catch-up post, and I think there's a little more to it than just the surface shows.

Llamarble's reaction reads town to me. As scum, I'd have expected a more violent kind of "Fate's lying, let's lynch him" response. I was disappointed it wasn't there. Too townie to be scum.

Time to come out of the tunnel and take a fresh look around.

Very first thing to catch my eye is this.

LOL.

I was about to go to sleep having unvoted one of my town reads and leave it there but that is too funny.

mega vote: werewolf

Are you serious?!?!? LIKE SERIOUS???!??!

What the hell kind of overblown, hypersensitive, scummy OMGUS reaction was this? Whether or not werewolf555's obsevation was worthwhile or pertinent, your reaction to it certainly is worth noting.

[DavidParker]

hypersensitive?? overblown? That was me laughing my ass off. I'd go with overblown, but it wasn't hypersensitive. I found his whole post hilarious. The case he made on me was so hilariously poor and scummy and just factually incorrect that he warranted my vote. Yes it was an OMGUS. But an OMGUS on the scummiest thing I'd seen at that point.

[werewolf555]

hypersensitive?? overblown? That was me laughing my ass off. I'd go with overblown, but it wasn't hypersensitive. I found his whole post hilarious. The case he made on me was so hilariously poor and scummy and just factually incorrect that he warranted my vote. Yes it was an OMGUS. But an OMGUS on the scummiest thing I'd seen at that point.

and I didn't vote you....
How was it an OMGUS?

[bobsnox]

1. Her top suspect was bobsnox, but she didn't mention him at all as a better choice. I expect townies to fight for their preference and scum to hop for convenience.

Thank you. I was about to say...

How she handled me smacked of scum.

[bobsnox]

Sounds like fate is pulling a lot out of his ass
VOTE: Fate

I could easily be persuaded to vote for werewolf.

[DavidParker]

hypersensitive?? overblown? That was me laughing my ass off. I'd go with overblown, but it wasn't hypersensitive. I found his whole post hilarious. The case he made on me was so hilariously poor and scummy and just factually incorrect that he warranted my vote. Yes it was an OMGUS. But an OMGUS on the scummiest thing I'd seen at that point.

and I didn't vote you....
How was it an OMGUS?

you posted suspicion of me i retaliated against you.

[Jahudo]

Yos, are you claiming that town don't fakeclaim or that they don't fakeclaim specifically like this?

Here's a game where Xtomx (town) fakeclaimed to be masons with another player, for reactions: link

Here's a game where ABR fakeclaimed cop when he was VT, because he was so sure the player he wanted to lynch was scum: link

Fate is a kind of player that would do this as town. Maybe scum too but I don't see how this is a must lynch moment that you needed to claim Yos, though I still think you are town.

[DLG]

@ DavidParker
Hypersensitive because werewolf555 just provided an obsevation that you were playing different than his town meta on you. I don't see where he was really making a case on you. Do you disagree with his interpretation of your play in that game? That would make his point factually incorrect, but just the fact that you have changed over time doesn't.

[Fishythefish]

OK, definitely going with Llama and Fate still town.

*cheers as DLG emerges from his tunnel*

I'm thinking about what I think of this DBE wagon. Ages ago, I had a bit of a scumread on her, and she's made very little impression since. I think I much prefer a

VOTE: BB

For most of day 1, BB voted DBE, and seemed happy with that vote, although he was already saying who the scum on it were. Llama attacked him, and he immediately dropped her DBE vote, never to be mentioned again, to go after Llama with a pretty shocking case. His arguments with Llama don't read like he is remotely interested in finding out his alignment, and he hasn't commented at all on DBE since he unvoted her, despite DBE's recent wagon. Made a scumslip in saying that it was the

townies

on Llama's wagon who chickened out day 1.

[DLG]

Werewolf is scummy for voting me without giving any sort of reasonable explanation.

What I find unforgivable the most is ignoring the questions that have been put to him over it. Too much time has passed and too much has happened to make it a viable line of investigation, now. But, dodging pertinent questions is scummy.

@ bobsnox
What about werewolf555's vote of Fate made him yet another player you'd be willing to see hang? Timing? Being against your read of things?

[bobsnox]

@ bobsnox
What about werewolf555's vote of Fate made him yet another player you'd be willing to see hang? Timing? Being against your read of things?

Not so much that specific post I quoted but rather his general activity in the game.

Seems like scum trying to ride momentum and stay out of the spotlight.

[DLG]

Made a scumslip in saying that it was the

townies

on Llama's wagon who chickened out day 1.

This is a point that rings bells for me, more than anything else regarding Bub Bidderskins.

Not so much that specific post I quoted but rather his general activity in the game.

Seems like scum trying to ride momentum and stay out of the spotlight.

Fair enough, and I agree in general.

Alright, of everything at this point I'm most concerned with what looks like a real scum slip from Bub Bidderskins.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

[Yosarian2]

Yos, are you claiming that town don't fakeclaim or that they don't fakeclaim specifically like this?

I can't imagine town fakeclaiming like this.

Honestly, I know there are a couple of people who fakeclaim as town on occasion, but for the most part I don't really entertain the idea that town might be lying; it's hard enough to figure out what's going on when you assume "if X is town, he's telling the truth". There are good reasons that lynch all liars (as far as lying about roles go) has always been a good pro-town policy, even in a meta where town occasionally lie.

Fate is a kind of player that would do this as town. Maybe scum too but I don't see how this is a must lynch moment that you needed to claim Yos, though I still think you are town.

Fate does seem like the kind of player who's capable of gambits as either alignment. That being said, I still don't think he would claim cop on day 2 just to derail a wagon on a claimed vanilla, and I really don't think his whole "I was going to claim mason recruiter all along but I really didn't think through what that would mean" line. He's clearly a smart guy; he might take risks, but I don't think he would do it without at least thinking things through first.

I will also say that I'm probably not the main pro-town information role. I've already partly claimed, so I might as well just say that I'm not even a full tracker. There probably is a real pro-town info role, most likely a cop, and if I hadn't killed Fate's fake-cop claim in the bud, the real cop probably would have been outed.

[bobsnox]

bub bidderskins is scummy but he's not darla

so let's get him tomorrow

[Fate]

I can swing a BB lynch too, now that Yos has been revealed as town.

[Fate]

Yos' logic for lynching me is basically "I can't imagine a town player doing XXXX" when there's no list of "WHAT TOWNZ DOES" and even if there was I would've shattered that list a thousand times in the fifty games I've played, and I recall telling the TRUTH as town in only a handful of them.

Yeah, I didn't think out "well what IF Marble does play along? When I flip nonMasonrecruiter hell just get autolynched anyway, and if he DOESTNT then he isnt cleared anyway." I wasn't going for a cop fakeclaim, though I've done those in the past too (I was more certain there was no cop in that game), but like I said before I was really hoping I could just softclaim that he was town, then everyone would stfu and get off his wagon. UNFORTUNATELY Yos had a track result on me so that softclaim didn't work at all, I'm curious as to why Yos even decided to track Nikanor in the FIRST place given his little interaction with my slot.

A lot of my gambits aren't well thought out master plans, because I only LONGTERM plan as SCUM, because, ya'know, in order for scum to win I have to be alive at endgame. (at least that's my view of it. I could count the number of players on one hand that I'd actually TRUST to carry on and win as scum without me and none of them are in this game). To propose that I would make some suicide longshot gambit just to set-up a fake guilty tomorrow (assuming I would somehow get a mislynch today AFTER softclaiming the main mislynch wagon as town) to auto-win is LUDICROUS.

Long-shots are for shitty scumbags that have no confidence in their ability to fool town, aka "IF WE JUST FAKECLAIM THIS THEN WE CAN WIN TOMORROW LETS PUT OUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET" I for one never pull that shit as scum, I much prefer fooling people with an easy VT claim and directing lynches with brute force.

But enough self-meta that Yos will say "LOLSELFMETA FUCK YOU SCUM" to, let's appeal to reason:

Yosarian. You say "I can't believe town would do such a horrible thing!" Take it out. Throw it out, stop it. Treat it as NULL.

Now go back through the rest of my posts. What is your read on me then? I'll tell you, you thought I was TOWN who couldn't fake whatever it is you said I couldnt' fake. Go with the read you have on me treating this gambit as null (though, like I said, I'd argue and anyone who's familiar with my meta would argue its a towntell, but I won't push the envelope that much), and then we can talk.

[Yosarian2]

I'm curious as to why Yos even decided to track Nikanor in the FIRST place given his little interaction with my slot.

Tracker's a tricky role. Scum are always going to send out the member of their scum group that's attracted the least suspicion, so as to avoid getting tracked or roleblocked; for example, if Llama is scum, there's about a 0% chance that his scum team sends him out to kill right after he almost gets lynched. So the only shot the tracker has is to figure out who might be scum but hasn't really been attacked yet at all; you want to try to pick out the scum who's been flying under the radar, the guy everyone has a null read on.