Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Nameless]

Setael: This exchange (which q21 ignored in further posts) and my second last paragraph here are primarily why I'm guessing your slot is scum.

[Empking]

Neko: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15876

[Saint]

*waves*

Should be caught up by tonight, unless I get distracted by WoW. <_<

Hi-I-Pie
lots of "I"s
!

[Saint]

Saint (4): mb53, neko2086, KingTwelveSixteen, Zdenek
implosion (3): Darth Yoshi, nameless, ICEninja

Wow, okay, so obviously I need to pay more attention before posting. >_>

UNVOTE: implosion
VOTE: Saint

For the record, I'd also be okay with lynching

q21

Setael or WoMC.

Empking, I don't think you get to mock somebody for not knowing some piece of voting theory (#301) when you continue to withhold explanations for your reads / votes and claim that this can't be a scum tell (#310).

What's the reasoning behind this vote?

[Saint]

@IPie's 321

:
I am for mass-claiming, however, we may out our power roles.
I am just a VT.

@Setael's 322

I really like this post, for obvious reasons. Of course I don't like being mislynched as a townie. I mean, I replaced into the game with virtually only the case on me that my playerslot had been inactive. Well, I am very active now, and I have been playing a solid game. Why are there still votes on me? I guess I'm preaching to the choir here. MB is on me because I am suspicious of him, Implosion would be on me because I am trying to get him lynched, and I guess Ice is just looking for an easy lynch regardless of alignment. That is my take on it, so far. You are suspicious of Ice setting this up, but I saw it from Zdenek as well, even if he is voting for Nameless now.

Also, what do you think of Nameless, Setael? I haven't seen you mention him.

@Ice's 324

:
I actually have to defend him on this one. I have had a general town-read on him, and I fully expect it to be easier on him to make a case on me because he doesn't know my alignment as scum would. I expect scum to be voting me moreso like MB/Nameless are than Ice. I could be wrong, but I don't believe I am.

Why would Ice seek my lynch? I have stated he was my strongest town read, I believe scum want to keep townies who have town reads on them around, especially ones who are notoriously bad at mafia. Possibly WIFOM? Sure, but when someone is defending their attacker, you have to always take it with a grain of salt. I'm not really happy lynching Ice, although I figured voting him would help me live, as his wagon currently has momentum. However, I want to lynch scum.

Setael: This exchange (which q21 ignored in further posts) and my second last paragraph here are primarily why I'm guessing your slot is scum.

OK? Why are you voting me, then?
This is more of a case than the lack of one I've seen from you on me, yet you're voting me.
Why is there a contradiction here? I'm sure you'll say there isn't one, but an obvious contradiction is here on your lack of reasoning. Is it really that hard for you to make a case? Are you really reserved with your vote, generally, as town? I don't see many people who are.

[Setael]

Yep, BBCode was disabled. Thanks.

Ice then posts calling out mongoose for voting weapons without giving reason and then gives implosion a free pass for posting a scum list with no reasoning. Instead he focuses on asking why nameless was listed as scummy.

I gave him a free pass? I thought the list he provided was scummy, and presented reasons why. You're seriously misrepresenting what happened here.

Not really. When you first posted about Implosion's list you said nothing that indicated you thought it was scummy in the least. Instead, you just wondered about his placement of Nameless. Here is what you said:

Regarding implosion's list, I feel like his positioning of nameless is extremely suspect. Why did you put nameless down as one of the scummiest? I can't find anything suspicious that he's done, and I can't find anything besides a random vote against him in anything you've said. You seemed to arbitrarily put him down there. Can you explain what he has done that you find scummy? Your stance against mongoose is fully justified and I agree with it, but like nameless, you haven't said anything about over9000.

If you thought it was scummy that Implosion posted a list at all, why didn't you say so here instead of responding to the list like you did with no mention of thinking it shouldn't have been posted? This whole analysis you provide of Implosion's list actually seems to indicate that you're taking it seriously and have no problem with it being posted.

It's not until after neko says it's bad that you chime in with a "yeah, me too." Even then, you don't go after implosion at all, you just say you won't be making a list and then you give reasons why you won't. Here's what you say about it at this point (still not actually saying it's scummy to make a list- your point seems to be more that they're unnecessary at this point than scummy.

I, as well, will not be putting forth a comprehensive list. Those are meant for replacements and games in deadlocks. I shouldn't even need to point out a list of who I feel is scummy at the moment, as anyone who has read through my posts should have a good idea of who I suspect.

So not only are you following neko like a lapdog, you never did say it was scummy and then you tried to throw suspicion on me for saying I "seriously misrepresented" what happened.

I admit that I found Saint increasingly suspicious as time went on. His initial replacement in was alright (albeit annoying), but the quality of his posts really started to drop off. Also, others pointed things out that I hadn't spent enough time considering (such as his SK accusation), which impacted my point of view.

As time went on? What time? Monday at midnight you found him mildly scummy for meh reasons (like because he posted more than once upon replacing in. Right.)

Less than 2 hours later

you're ready to lynch him. How is that "as time went on"?

Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:59 pm
I still thing implosion is extremely scummy. I think Saint is mildly scummy due to his predecessor and partially because of his all over the place posting.

Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:52 am
I'm totally fine for a lynch of either Saint or implosion.

There are 6 posts between these 2, two of which are yours and none of which have any substantial content. The only ones about Saint at all are Saint's defense. That's QUITE a jump. Clearly, it wasn't you slowly being convinced by others' compelling arguments over time like you're trying to spin it as. Instead it's you paving the way for your place on the Saint wagon. (Because you're scum and he's a townie, see? It all makes sense.)

[KingTwelveSixteen]

4. No its clearly a town tell, that's what the "at worst" is there for.

What.

Apparently this post did not contain the full measure of my disbelieve in this statement. Here is a new post that should hopefully clear things up.

what.

[Empking]

4. No its clearly a town tell, that's what the "at worst" is there for.

What.

Apparently this post did not contain the full measure of my disbelieve in this statement. Here is a new post that should hopefully clear things up.

what.

What do you call an action with no scum motivation but with a town motivation? I call it a town tell.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

4. No its clearly a town tell, that's what the "at worst" is there for.

What.

Apparently this post did not contain the full measure of my disbelieve in this statement. Here is a new post that should hopefully clear things up.

what.

What do you call an action with no scum motivation but with a town motivation? I call it a town tell.

...What is the town motivation behind refusing to answer questions or give motivations? The scum motivation is to stifle debate and to give them the ability to not have to give good reasons for their votes/actions. It also could be an attempt to not have to explain something at all, so that if they arn't called on it they could get away without having to give any suspicious scummy arguments.

[Empking]

The town motive is to lure scum out of their comfort zone it also helps trap players who are more interested in theory than hunting scum. (i.e you). he scum motivations you give are really awful. 1. It doesn't stiffle debate 2. Arguments are rarely scummy.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

The town motive is to lure scum out of their comfort zone it also helps trap players who are more interested in theory than hunting scum. (i.e you). he scum motivations you give are really awful. 1. It doesn't stiffle debate 2. Arguments are rarely scummy.

1. Yes it does, the only debate we are having about your suspicions of Nameless right now is that you should actually explain them.
2. Arguments that are faulty should be declared so. Faulty arguments could get town killed. Arguments that get town killed with faulty accusations should be considered scummy.

How does it lure scum out of their comfort zone? Also, knowing the reason other players are voting for people tends to be

kind of important

for figuring out if they are scum or town.

[Empking]

1. Wrong. I'm finding scum. People who are not you and I are talking about other things.
2. Unless made public then they can only be bad for the town if the player thinking them is town. That's obviously not scummy.

How does it lure scum out of their comfort zone?

1. Its unusual
2. They can't prepare.

Also, knowing the reason other players are voting for people tends to be kind of important for figuring out if they are scum or town.

This is just typical scum lying.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1. Wrong. I'm finding scum. People who are not you and I are talking about other things.
2. Unless made public then they can only be bad for the town if the player thinking them is town. That's obviously not scummy.

How does it lure scum out of their comfort zone?

1. Its unusual
2. They can't prepare.

Also, knowing the reason other players are voting for people tends to be kind of important for figuring out if they are scum or town.

This is just typical scum lying.

1. Yes, but the entire debate on why you are voting for nameless is being stifled. Just because other people talk about other things doesn't mean you are helping find scum.
2. So people should just vote with the faulty arguments in their mind and never have them debunked? That seems like a sure way to mislynch.
1a. Theres a reason for that.
2b. Town can't prepare either. Or respond in any way. Nobody can.
3. Try debunking the point instead of calling me a liar. Perhaps give a way to find scum that doesn't rely on finding people's motivations for things.

[Empking]

1. As the only player (other that ICE(?)) on the right track I kinda am.
2. Changing the goal posts much. Hmmm, who would do that? Oh, yeah, scum.
1a. Yes the newbie game teaching poor play.
2b. Town don't need to prepare.
3. I don't need to debunk the point. Its clearly false. Oh wait unless your saying that scum are honest about their reasons you're changing the goal posts yet again.

[mb53]

MB is on me because I am suspicious of him

Dude stop acting like I don't have a case on you. It's completely valid. Just stop.

[Nameless]

THIS IS THE TOWN:

@Saint: A few things. First, why is neko SK? Isn't that a huge leap of logic and/or speculation? Second, why do you find my list and/or anything else scummy? I'm not sure if that's iioa, but it's something like that... giving reads and not explaining them. Also, mb "explained _over9000" in his ISO 4. It didn't "sell" me, it's just that _over9000's scumminess had already been explained in a previous post.

Whats with the sudden jokeyness? Perhaps it is you who is the serial killer! Since you seem so convinced there is one and once you mention your read for the SK your posting style changes to be much more jokey.

I do share in the other players’ questions of your read on serial killer neko—Implosion’s note that it is a huge jump in logic, and KTS’s as to why you are so convinced that there is an SK in the setup.

I’m also curious about your read on Mongoose—you say in #224 that he lurks as scum, but you also say in your very next post that you played with Mongoose and this wasn’t his scum play—but Mongoose has spent a lot of time lurking or just not being around (including, I would consider, the present moment, with him having checked in some time ago, but w/ still no content). This looks odd.

Wow, buddy much?

Again... Buddy much? And on a post I thought was complete crap too. Nice.

I'm not sure how to respond to Saint's posts. The thing is, I actually agree with most of his reads and content. But after looking closer, I don't like the way he's presented them. A couple of times he pads his posts out with meaningless promises or his belief in the town. The way he buddies up with people who agree with him is obviously excessive, and makes me wonder if he's not just borrowing ideas from and appealing to the more active players in order to appear town himself. I rather suspect the hostile reaction to my vote of neil (+ what DarthYoshi said in #238 re. his Mongoose read) is only for the sake of defending his own replacee's inactivity - which shouldn't be necessary if Saint plays well. And no, I don't know where the heck his neko = SK read came from either.

Saint, what causes you to believe that he is more likely to be an SK than scum with the information we have?

I see where Nameless is coming from with his analysis of Saint's tone, and will pay close attention to any further buddying that he does.

The rest of his posts thus far--I do not at all like how easily he claims mongoose and zdenek to be town. Call me scum for being "nervous" if you want, but blindly following others means you likely know something we don't.

Saint's newest post- how exactly is that a slip? I meant "what"-- over made a completely pointless request for q21 to explain his typo, and I couldn't (and still can't) imagine what he could possibly have been going after.

Seems a bit to eager to accuse anyone of anything. He also seems to just...ignore any scummyness his predeccesor had. Like, not ignore the suspicions, just flat out trying to explain away the stuff as if it was nothing at all, even when nobody is calling him specifically out on it.
Oh, just rereading and Saint asks Neko what his (saint's) read on Neko is about. How could anyone know whats up with someone elses read like that? Unless they can read minds or something...

Reeks of having too much information and of buddying.

An SK read, before there are multiple kills? This seems like a scummy attempt to distract the town from scum hunting or to seem pro-active and townie by looking for all sorts of anti-town characters.

Saint-- I really don't see anything suspicious with mb's asking why such and such makes him scummy. This is a completely legitimate question to ask. Possibly the most important one--people need to back up their claims of what is scummy. Also, I hate to be the fluff police (I really don't mind it when it's marginal), but does 264 merit its own post? That whole sequence of posts really doesn't amount to much. In general, the cases you are trying to build are attempting to be novel but are based on really inconsequential details (or no details at all), as though you're trying to appear to be helpful.

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

This doesn't even make sense. He is voting you because you "know" he's scum with implosion?

If you don't see how your catchup was scummy then you have apparently not read pretty much everything anyone has had to say about you since you replaced in.

Your play is getting more attention, and I can definitely see why. I'm prepared for some impulsive posting from you based on my previous experience with you, but posts like these are bad, bad, bad.

THIS IS SAINT:

Why are there still votes on me?

[ICEninja]

If you thought it was scummy that Implosion posted a list at all, why didn't you say so here instead of responding to the list like you did with no mention of thinking it shouldn't have been posted?

It was early enough in the game where if his reads lined up with his actions and such, then it wouldn't have been a hugely big deal. I felt like MB's list was a lot scummier at that point, and even more so because of his "oops I forgot that was scummy" sentiment after. The fact that someone posted an entire town-scum list with having placements inconsistent with what they said is hugely scummy. The fact that he just placed a list like that isn't smart play in my book, but it doesn't indicate scum.

So not only are you following neko like a lapdog, you never did say it was scummy and then you tried to throw suspicion on me for saying I "seriously misrepresented" what happened.

You did seriously misrepresent me, because you stated that I gave him a free pass. I absolutely did not. I found his list scummy, and I stated why. How is that in any way shape or form a free pass? As I stated already, the way his list was constructed was a lot scummier of an action than placing one at all, and it was much more worth the attention. I stand by my reasons to not post a list, but I don't think someone is scum just because they posted a list. I do, however, think someone is scum if they post a list indicating someone as scum when they haven't even shown anything to indicate them actually being scum.

Oh, and I didn't have a change of heart? Did you notice my post in between those 2 when I said:

This is terrible. You just essentially said "I feel like you are all just pushing the scummiest looking player", and had an undertone that it is scummy to do so.

You're easily up there with implosion as scummiest players, and while I don't like to decide scum teams without flips, I can pretty easily see a connection between you two. I'll keep it in mind if one of you flips scum.

You told me that I never explained a connection between implosion and Saint? I did it in MULTIPLE posts. You're clearly not reading my posts or taking them severely out of context.

I feel like Emp's arguments against King are fairly weak. I don't really see you doing a lot of scum hunting. Then again, King isn't a strong town read of mine either.

Nameless's post is amazing.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If I can't get a catch up post by tomorrow, I'm going to replace out.

[mb53]

replace out.

*facepalm*

Nameless's post is amazing.

QFT

[implosion]

CATCH UP INCOMING

[implosion]

mb's question in 239: I answered in 236.

ICE's 242: the way I was thinking about this might be a little strange, but I'm going to try again to explain it again. _over9000 was undoubtedly scummy (unless you ask Saint apparently, but that's another story). However, I did not have a

strong

read on him because of the amount of content he had posted. I agreed that he was scummy - I did not, however, have a strong read on his alignment. Scummy does not necessarily mean scum considering that _over9000 had written so few posts. And I never voted mongoose for voting _over9000, I voted mongoose for a contradiction or something (I think, too lazy to go back and check) and then for not answering a question. Frankly, me stating that there is likely scum on the wagon was for later - e.g., it was an observation that was made with the intent to be useful later or even at the time to figure out the mafia. I'm not sure why you're focusing so much on it, anyway. It wasn't exactly a groundbreaking point. I never contradicted myself. I may have been somewhat unclear, but I've clarified my argument several times.

Emp 249: did you see people's reactions to mb/my scumscales before posting this?

Emp 273: serious question here, serious answer please - are you intentionally making your justifications for voting/fosing/everything/etcetera bad?

Agreed with the last paragraph of neko's 279. I really don't remember seeing this from emp in the one game I've played with him (even if it is only one game and I was only alive for one day, and he was town)

Nice juxtaposition between Nameless's 297 and the votecount in 299.

Nameless 315: so assuming you're also still okay with my lynch, that's 4 lynches that you're okay with today, and even if not, 3 - why so many people? And moreover why is it even relevant that you'd be okay with a setael or a womc lynch when there's no wagon on either of them?

Liking IP's posts for the most part, especially since I share his scumreads (see below)

340 is epic. Just epic. Not necessarily evidence against Saint, but epic.

I was gonna unvote and vote Emp, but then noticed that he's mongoose's replacement and I already have a vote on him. Hm. I'm also building up suspicion of ICE, partially because I honestly don't see why he's focusing so much on one thing that I said in passing. Plus, although I may have been somewhat unclear, he is presenting a contradiction where none exists. And he was on the _over9000 wagon.

[DarthYoshi]

Nameless:

Wow, okay, so obviously I need to pay more attention before posting. >_>

Saint is replacing _over, the player whose bandwagon we have all been dissecting--and you weren't paying enough attention to realize that bandwagon existed? I'm also wondering why you would have been against being the initial vote on Saint if the circumstances had been that way. Your reasons for voting Saint I understand, but how you went about it is awfully fishy.

Saint:

I'm not really happy lynching Ice, although I figured voting him would help me live,

I have to think only scum would consider voting someone else in order to live another day. Saying "but I wanna lynch scum!" right after doesn't negate the sentiment of this sentence. If it were just one of you or _over in this playslot, I might be more open to your saying that your wagon looks like an easy lynch, but when two different players in the same playslot are exuding scumminess? You're now climbing up the ranks of my scumlist.

Implosion:

Not necessarily evidence against Saint, but epic.

Well, what do you think about the cases being made on Saint? You state that with Saint's predecessor _over that there wasn't enough material to analyze for scumminess, but that isn't the case with Saint.

Also @ Implosion: why does 3-4 people seem like a lot for someone to be open to lynching on D1?

The KTS/Emp back-and-forth has done very little to change my read on either playslot, both of which have been scummy-ish for a while (in part due to their respective predecessors, in part due to their own play, though with Emp I can't tell if his lack of forthrightness is scummy or just anti-town behavior).

Also working on plowing through the intro walls from Set and Ice's responses.

And, welcome Pie.

[ICEninja]

I was gonna unvote and vote Emp, but then noticed that he's mongoose's replacement and I already have a vote on him.

Voting someone because of his predecessor. Why? Because of apparently:

I voted mongoose for a contradiction or something (I think, too lazy to go back and check) and then for not answering a question.

You can't even remember. Look back at your reasons, they were pretty awful. The fact that you continue to hold your vote for those original reasons means your scum hunting has come to a complete and total standstill.

I'm also building up suspicion of ICE, partially because I honestly don't see why he's focusing so much on one thing that I said in passing.

He suspects me because I'm scum hunting him. This isn't something you said in passing, this is regarding your (still current) scum reads. It is extremely valid, even now.

Plus, although I may have been somewhat unclear, he is presenting a contradiction where none exists.

You've said over9000 is scummy, repeatedly, but you don't believe he's scum? How is this not a contradiction? How can you find someone scummy but not have a read on their alignment? What does it even MEAN to find someone scummy? This is absolutely a contradiction, one of severe fence sitting. Highly scummy.

And he was on the _over9000 wagon.

Right. I was voting for a scummy player. THAT sure makes me scum.

[ICEninja]

I have to think only scum would consider voting someone else in order to live another day. Saying "but I wanna lynch scum!" right after doesn't negate the sentiment of this sentence. If it were just one of you or _over in this playslot, I might be more open to your saying that your wagon looks like an easy lynch, but when two different players in the same playslot are exuding scumminess? You're now climbing up the ranks of my scumlist.

I pretty much thought the exact same thing when reading this, but forgot to go back and include my analysis of Saint in my recent posts.

I somewhat get the impression that he's buddying up to me a bit by "defending" me, but then simultaneously saying he'd vote me to save himself, simply because there's a wagon on me gaining steam. I'm definitely going to affirm my lynch preferences of implosion and Saint, and I doubt I'll find another today. This is especially true because I feel like if one of them flips scum, we'll have a lot to analyze about the other, and could likely lead us to nailing 2 scum in a row.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're on our last week before the deadline, and should probably come to a lynch decision in the next 3 days or so.

[Saint]

I have to think only scum would consider voting someone else in order to live another day. Saying "but I wanna lynch scum!" right after doesn't negate the sentiment of this sentence. If it were just one of you or _over in this playslot, I might be more open to your saying that your wagon looks like an easy lynch, but when two different players in the same playslot are exuding scumminess? You're now climbing up the ranks of my scumlist.

I pretty much thought the exact same thing when reading this, but forgot to go back and include my analysis of Saint in my recent posts.

I somewhat get the impression that he's buddying up to me a bit by "defending" me, but then simultaneously saying he'd vote me to save himself, simply because there's a wagon on me gaining steam. I'm definitely going to affirm my lynch preferences of implosion and Saint, and I doubt I'll find another today. This is especially true because I feel like if one of them flips scum, we'll have a lot to analyze about the other, and could likely lead us to nailing 2 scum in a row.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're on our last week before the deadline, and should probably come to a lynch decision in the next 3 days or so.

That's not what I said at all. I said you would be an easy vote, which I'm not going to make, because I have a town read on you. You and Darth need to stop twisting my words.