Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Saint]

You all are also strawmanning by not focusing on the entire concept, but only a small part of it, or at least you need to concern yourself with the meat of the argument.

[Nameless]

Implosion: Why not so many people? There are gonna be 3-4 scum players in the game, so being willing to lynch any of my top 3-4 suspects seems normal. Listing them explicitly is helpful in case a wagon falls apart close to the deadline and the town needs to quickly decide a new one.

340 is epic. Just epic. Not necessarily evidence against Saint, but epic.

Aww, look at the cute little scumbuddies, aren't they adorable? (BTW, don't think I'm not noticing you either, Setael.)

DarthYoshi: I kept my vote on implosion in #297 because I was more than happy to lynch either of them. Due to the several replacements, number of posts since the last vote count and my own carelessness in making that quick comment, I mistakenly thought implosion had the larger wagon.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1. As the only player (other that ICE(?)) on the right track I kinda am.

NO.

I havn't even finished reading the rest of your post as of writing this part. But NO.

DO NOT claim that you are the "only one on the right track" when you have given ZERO evidence, ZERO reasoning, and you just think that "Its ok because I'm right."
NO, just NO.
There is so much wrong with that statement I don't even know where to begin explaining it.

2. Changing the goal posts much. Hmmm, who would do that? Oh, yeah, scum.
1a. Yes the newbie game teaching poor play.
2b. Town don't need to prepare.
3. I don't need to debunk the point. Its clearly false. Oh wait unless your saying that scum are honest about their reasons you're changing the goal posts yet again.

2. I did not "change the goal posts," that seperate argument came about in the middle of this argument when you claimed that arguments are rarely scummy. Seems to me you are more trying to change where this is going.
1a. This argument, on the other hand, is going straight into the ground as my counter is that claiming that everyone is wrong without giving solid evidence is bad and blah blah blah it just goes in circles since you seem to be

attempting

to give that argument now. I officially "change the goal post" to "This part of the argument is clearly not going to accomplish anything."
2b. They do need to have some way to respond to faulty accusations if say, some random scummy character accused them of being scum. If no arguments or reasons are given then no arguments or reasons can be returned. (other than: "Explain your post/vote")
3. Scum

arn't

honest. Thats the whole point. You catch them in their accidental contradictions, find where people seem to be going against the towns wellbeing, stuff like that. Town on the other hand are supposed to be honest (sadly I have seen some games where this is not the case (town lost horribly in all of them)) and give their real reasons. This whole game is figuring out who is lying and who is telling the truth.

Emp 273: serious question here, serious answer please - are you intentionally making your justifications for voting/fosing/everything/etcetera bad?

For a second there around when he claimed not giving out any information was a null/town tell I actually thought he was the jester, but then I remembered the rules for mini-normals said that there are no jesters.

You all are also strawmanning by not focusing on the entire concept, but only a small part of it, or at least you need to concern yourself with the meat of the argument.

What argument?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I suppose I should

actually

at least

start

to explain why I dislike that statement so much.

It is for the attitude that it implies.

The attitude that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. That you don't have to think critically of any of your beliefs or discuss any conflicting beliefs because "I'm right."
I despise that attitude. It has caused so much strife and discord. It shuts down any significant communication with the person who holds that attitude. You cannot argue, convince, or reason with somebody holding that type of attitude. The worst part is that most people with that attitude won't change even if shown wrong, the only way to remove it is a major, major wakeup call from reality saying that "No, you are wrong." Like life-shattering events type things here. Even then some people like that

still

won't change, and will stay stuck in their self-delusion forever.

That is why I dislike that point so much.

[Empking]

I suppose I should

actually

at least

start

to explain why I dislike that statement so much.

It is for the attitude that it implies.

The attitude that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. That you don't have to think critically of any of your beliefs or discuss any conflicting beliefs because "I'm right."
I despise that attitude. It has caused so much strife and discord. It shuts down any significant communication with the person who holds that attitude. You cannot argue, convince, or reason with somebody holding that type of attitude. The worst part is that most people with that attitude won't change even if shown wrong, the only way to remove it is a major, major wakeup call from reality saying that "No, you are wrong." Like life-shattering events type things here. Even then some people like that

still

won't change, and will stay stuck in their self-delusion forever.

That is why I dislike that point so much.

Nice AtE. By gosh you're heavy on the rhetoric.

Question; Why are you having this argument?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Question; Why are you having this argument?

Which argument? The ridiculous one that not explaining anything is pure townie or the one about attitudes that refuse any reasonable discussion?
If its the second one it is because I absolutely despise that attitude.

[Empking]

Question; Why are you having this argument?

Which argument? The ridiculous one that not explaining anything is pure townie or the one about attitudes that refuse any reasonable discussion?
If its the second one it is because I absolutely despise that attitude.

So you're not hunting scum. You're just gtrying to distract the town?

Well, who does that? Scum.

(This is my lsast post toweards you. I am still on the Nameless wagon, remember.)

[Empking]

Emp 249: did you see people's reactions to mb/my scumscales before posting this?

Yes.

Emp 273: serious question here, serious answer please - are you intentionally making your justifications for voting/fosing/everything/etcetera bad?

Look King is clearly not town. He's purposely active lurking, engaging in rhetoric to get the town to like him, lurker voting, wagon hopping (in a riduclously scummy fashion. Like stupidly so.) and all in all not even pretending to scumhunt. You might think those are poor reasons but that's because you're not very good at this game.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So you're not hunting scum. You're just gtrying to distract the town?

Well, who does that? Scum.

(This is my lsast post toweards you. I am still on the Nameless wagon, remember.)

This is I believe in my mind's count the fifth time you have accused me of being scum, and then you immediatly point out that your still on the Nameless wagon. Who does that? Scum.

...

Emp 273: serious question here, serious answer please - are you intentionally making your justifications for voting/fosing/everything/etcetera bad?

Look King is clearly not town. He's purposely active lurking, engaging in rhetoric to get the town to like him, lurker voting, wagon hopping (in a riduclously scummy fashion. Like stupidly so.) and all in all not even pretending to scumhunt. You might think those are poor reasons but that's because you're not very good at this game.

Once again you refuse to answer the question asked.
I have not been "wagon hopping," before now I switched votes once then switched it back two posts later. You however have switched to me with (faulty) reasoning and then back to Nameless with zero reasons given whatsoever, and then you just say that other people are bad at the game for not thinking the same thing you do.

Emp you have repeatedly dodged or deflected nearly every single question I have asked you.

You have claimed I used AtE then immediatly afterward claimed my post had nothing to do with the game.

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well. Except of course the fact that you started it by refusing to answer a simple question about why you were voting for Nameless, then claiming that not telling town was

not scummy at all no siree

and that asking you

why

you were voting for certain people was

incredibly

scummy.

...

FOS: King

-

Ignoring my question

, jumping on the Empking wagon rather than scumhunting, "Empking should have noticed the like 10 posts of people saying not to post the list of scum stuff and then not done what he did." which is just so filled with scumminess I'm not sure where to begin.

Underlined is blatant hypocrisy.

UNVOTE
VOTE:Empking

[Nexus]

Votecount the tenth:

Saint (3): mb53, neko2086, nameless
Empking (3): implosion, InflatablePie, KingTwelveSixteen
nameless (2): Zdenek, Empking
implosion (2): Darth Yoshi, ICEninja
ICEninja (2): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Setael

Not voting: Saint

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Empking]

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well

How so? I argued with you to cement my read.

But I guess thast post was just OMGUS, nun huh you did it too and "I know you are but what am I".

Seriously, you're just ridiculous with saying I refused to answer that question. Implosion wanted to know something. He now knows it.

[Setael]

For all I know, Ice is the only one who has read any of my posts.

@ Nameless, you say you're "noticing me". How about an opinion about my posts? Any merit? If not, why? I get why you thought q21 was scummy, but I think what he actually was is lazy. He didn't answer questions, didn't do much. He thought if arguments were bad he could just ignore them. Lazy and stupid. Not much I can do about that, and I'm not suspicious of anyone's scum read on him for it. I am, however, suspicious that you're trying to coast through with just that. I don't think what you've pointed out on him is enough to be so confident my slot is scum, especially without saying a word about anything I've posted.

Did anyone even look at the timing of Ice's posts that I pointed out? No one else thinks it's scummy to go from finding someone mildly scummy for really weak reasons and then ready to lynch so quickly? (And then later lie about it and say you changed your opinion "over time" based on the arguments everyone was coming up with?)

We have less than a week before deadline. I'm sticking with the ice wagon until I get a response from more players on it. The only thing anyone has said about it is they're not bothering to read it because it's too long. A few have said they will and I'm waiting. There are a few others I'd be willing to vote, as I'm as aware as anyone else that a no lynch is the worst thing that could happen D1. I'll be rereading the thread while I wait for the rest of you to comment on Ice.

[Zdenek]

IP, I didn't vote mongoose, because I wanted to keep my vote on Silavor.

Keep in mind that only Darth and implosion had their votes on him. So many people suspect him, but no one else wants to vote him? This is setting off major alarms in my head.

That reason for think mongoose is scummy is terrible. There is no way that someone not being voted for doing something like mongoose did, is a scum tell.

340 is epic. Just epic. Not necessarily evidence against Saint, but epic.

Please explain this.

For all I know, Ice is the only one who has read any of my posts.

I read them, and I'm happy we seemed to be in agreement about Silavor.

We have less than a week before deadline. I'm sticking with the ice wagon until I get a response from more players on it.

I'll comment on your case:

I think going after someone for a an RVS joke is slightly scummy, and I think that WOMC comes out of the exchange looking worse.

I think that your comments about distancing should wait until after a flip.

Your point about him calling nameless out about reads, but not implosion is null.

He definitely changes reads on Saint, but Saint is scummy, so who cares.

Anyway, I think there are better lynches than ICEninja today.

[InflatablePie]

IP, I didn't vote mongoose, because I wanted to keep my vote on Silavor.

Keep in mind that only Darth and implosion had their votes on him. So many people suspect him, but no one else wants to vote him? This is setting off major alarms in my head.

That reason for think mongoose is scummy is terrible. There is no way that someone not being voted for doing something like mongoose did, is a scum tell.

Let me explain.

...

No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

I found his 64 terrible as well, however, the fact that I find him scummy and so does everyone else and his mother, yet he's garnering little votes for it, make's it look like he's scum and his buddies are just going "yeah, he's scummy" but aren't willing to bus.


I also agree with coming together on a wagon. I'll join the ICE wagon if it'll gain support by deadline, but I'd rather have Empking lynched, by far.

[InflatablePie]

EBWOP: *everyone and their mother

meh.

[Empking]

For all I know, Ice is the only one who has read any of my posts.

@ Nameless, you say you're "noticing me". How about an opinion about my posts? Any merit? If not, why? I get why you thought q21 was scummy, but I think what he actually was is lazy. He didn't answer questions, didn't do much. He thought if arguments were bad he could just ignore them. Lazy and stupid. Not much I can do about that, and I'm not suspicious of anyone's scum read on him for it. I am, however, suspicious that you're trying to coast through with just that. I don't think what you've pointed out on him is enough to be so confident my slot is scum, especially without saying a word about anything I've posted.

Did anyone even look at the timing of Ice's posts that I pointed out? No one else thinks it's scummy to go from finding someone mildly scummy for really weak reasons and then ready to lynch so quickly? (And then later lie about it and say you changed your opinion "over time" based on the arguments everyone was coming up with?)

1. People change opinons quickly all the time. That's not a scum tell.
2. People have faulty memories. Also not a scum tell.

[Setael]

Empking, when you replaced in, you named Ice as scum. Your response to my posts (and previous entire lack thereof) do not indicate in the least that you actually think he's scum. What did you find scummy about him in your initial read? Do you have anything else to say about all the things I found scummy?

Ima ISO your slot.

So Mongoose did almost nothing. No scum hunting, no analysis, no stating suspicions. He actively flew under the radar until he was replaced out. The only times he did say anything about other players, he qualified the statements in a way that looks like he was avoiding actually saying anything he would have to explain. (i.e. “q21 summed up what i thought perfectly so no real content here” and “I dont like how neil likes how many people jumped on him though, however it sounds like something I would say so I will let it be.”)

Empking’s entry into the game was interesting. He posted a full breakdown without giving any reasons whatsoever (and then when asked for reasons on Nameless he merely says “gut”. There’s been an awfully lot of content to simply be going with gut imo.) He put neko, Ice and Nameless on his scum list which was refreshing since no one else had poked at any of them much. If Empking is scum, my original read of the game was pretty off. He lists q21 as certain town, which I actually find bizarre since q21’s play was fairly lazy and unhelpful. It's interesting when someone declares your slot as obviously town. I find myself wanting to agree with his analysis because I know he's right about my slot, but if he's scum he knows everyone's alignment anyway so meh.

If an Ice wagon can't happen before deadline, I'd prefer an empking lynch over the other options.

[Empking]

Empking, when you replaced in, you named Ice as scum. Your response to my posts (and previous entire lack thereof) do not indicate in the least that you actually think he's scum. What did you find scummy about him in your initial read? Do you have anything else to say about all the things I found scummy?

Ima ISO your slot.

So Mongoose did almost nothing. No scum hunting, no analysis, no stating suspicions. He actively flew under the radar until he was replaced out. The only times he did say anything about other players, he qualified the statements in a way that looks like he was avoiding actually saying anything he would have to explain. (i.e. “q21 summed up what i thought perfectly so no real content here” and “I dont like how neil likes how many people jumped on him though, however it sounds like something I would say so I will let it be.”)

Empking’s entry into the game was interesting. He posted a full breakdown without giving any reasons whatsoever (and then when asked for reasons on Nameless he merely says “gut”. There’s been an awfully lot of content to simply be going with gut imo.) He put neko, Ice and Nameless on his scum list which was refreshing since no one else had poked at any of them much. If Empking is scum, my original read of the game was pretty off. He lists q21 as certain town, which I actually find bizarre since q21’s play was fairly lazy and unhelpful. It's interesting when someone declares your slot as obviously town. I find myself wanting to agree with his analysis because I know he's right about my slot, but if he's scum he knows everyone's alignment anyway so meh.

If an Ice wagon can't happen before deadline, I'd prefer an empking lynch over the other options.

Are people using that "there's beren an awful lot of content to be using gut" just to annoy me. Gut and "proper" analysis are just two different ways of analysing posts. In my experience gut is the more accurate method (for myself.)

[Setael]

Please tell me that's not all you have to say. How about some more direct questions.

What about Ice did you find scummy upon initially replacing in?

What do you think of my case on him? Any good points? Any weak points? What do you think of his defense?

What about q21 did you find so pro-town?

It would be really helpful if you could provide something more than "gut". Which posts or what things were said that gave you that gut feel?

[Empking]

Gut to question one and three. (OK, q21 was clearly playing to the town win con. I'll ISO Iece later.)

ICEninja was the first one to ping the scumdar. In his first post, he casts suspicion on WMC for what seemed pretty obviously a joke when I read it (I'll get into the later claim that it was a trap... later) and then once it earns him two votes, he backpeddles saying he only thought it was strange and he didn’t say it was scummy. This feels false since his post certainly intended to cast suspicion. Who cares if you SAID it was scummy? It was certainly implied. He also says “I'm glad others are noting that this is suspicious” which is clearly manipulation (and the result he wanted, obviously).

Not a scumtell.

Post 57 reads like scum distancing. Neko saying Ice is going to get on his nerves and that he’s making mountains out of molehills - distancing without attacking at all. Then Ice declares that Neko’s response to the “weak jab” reads as town.

Weak until one of them flips.

Ice then posts calling out mongoose for voting weapons without giving reason and then gives implosion a free pass for posting a scum list with no reasoning. Instead he focuses on asking why nameless was listed as scummy. If he were really scum hunting (rather than scum pretending to do so) I think he'd also have called out Implosion here. He also says he agrees with what neko is saying so he doesn't find him scummy. Since when is someone not scum because they agree with you? This free pass is very suspicious.

Since always.

So then ice says “I think Saint is mildly scummy due to his predecessor and partially because of his all over the place posting.” This follows Zedenek having added a vote to Saint. This is subtle wagon pushing and keeping yourself open to hammer a townie. Also, what is scummy about posting several posts the way he did, and how is it “all over the place”? Has this always bothered you, or are you just making friends with KTS? Or just looking for a reason to hammer a townie? Ironically, ice then posts again (so all over the place and scummy!) to add a little umph to his future Saint vote. Does this bring him up from mildly scummy, ice? You can probably vote him soon without looking too suspicious right? Check.]

The "There's a scum motive so its a scum tell" fallacy. The easiest explaination is that he's town who is being honest.

[Empking]

Oh, I didn't like ICE's attack of WOMC who (it seemed to me) what town helping the game along.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well

How so? I argued with you to cement my read.

But I guess thast post was just OMGUS, nun huh you did it too and "I know you are but what am I".

Seriously, you're just ridiculous with saying I refused to answer that question. Implosion wanted to know something. He now knows it.

Ah, the "Its only scummy if someone else does it" argument. A classic.
That was a single accusation in a post that contained at least six accusations. Misrep.
You didn't answer the question, you used it to attack me. If you were actually answering the question you would have just said "yes" and left it at that.

[Empking]

Also, If arguing with you is active lurking then you are doing it as well

How so? I argued with you to cement my read.

But I guess thast post was just OMGUS, nun huh you did it too and "I know you are but what am I".

Seriously, you're just ridiculous with saying I refused to answer that question. Implosion wanted to know something. He now knows it.

Ah, the "Its only scummy if someone else does it" argument. A classic.
That was a single accusation in a post that contained at least six accusations. Misrep.
You didn't answer the question, you used it to attack me. If you were actually answering the question you would have just said "yes" and left it at that.

[DarthYoshi]

Since it doesn’t look like an Implosion lynch is going to happen today, I’ve been reviewing Saint and Emp (Ice as well, my thoughts on Set's case on him are at the bottom of the post) as they seem to have come up the most as likely compromise lynch candidates, and I’ve had scum-ish reads on both for some time now. I would not oppose a lynch of either, but I am finding Empking slightly scummier atm for the following reasons:

-His entrance into the game (Setael’s summary in #366 is a pretty good synopsis) was scummier than Saint’s—I felt Saint, in spite of his left-field-ish reads and blatant buddying, was at least more forthright and not playing in as anti-town a manner. There was very little I liked about Empking’s entrance into the game, and he continues to not be very forthright: his #369 responses to Set’s questions still rely entirely on “gut” when we’re 15 pages in.
-His case on KTS in #357—active lurking, lurker voting, vote hopping, all sounds like stuff he is doing as well, while pretending to scumhunt on KTS. I can’t imagine both playslots are scum, just because I can’t see scumbuddies interacting with each other like this, but at this point, I have to think one or the other is.
-And part of the reason this feels like pretend scumhunting is his vote is on Nameless, but his ISO reveals very little scumhunting happening there, which comes across at the very least as inconsistent and/or vote hopping while he pretends to act town elsewhere, and may end up being a form of distancing.

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon. In that spirit…

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

Other stuff:

@Nameless: That’s fine, but you still didn’t answer my question: why would you have been reluctant to cast the initial vote on Saint? Your original excuse for not voting was that there wasn’t a wagon, not that the Implosion wagon was bigger. This excuse still feels contrived…I’m getting a bad vibe from it.

@Setael: I’ve gotten a chance to go over your case on Ice—there’s some persuasive stuff in there, but some of that evidence will depend on how players like Saint flip. That being said, I do agree with a couple of your other points—especially him not calling out Implosion after the scumlist. Additionally, my read on Ice has been less townish ever since his non-reaction reaction to Saint’s entry into the game. However, in looking at Ice as a lynch candidate, I realized that I think Saint and Emp are both better lynches atm—Ice is leaning closer to neutral for me, Emp and Saint closer to scum, and I think with Ice, it will depend on how certain flips turn out, so I’d rather lynch someone I’m a little more confident is scum.

@Saint: How was I “twisting” your words? You said part of your decision making calculus in determining a vote was if it would help you live.

[Empking]

Why am I scummier than Implosion? (After all I'm clearly not scum with Implosion as evident by the wagon. If Implosion was still the scummiest it clearly wouldn't be logical to vote me.)

Also, since you hate gut so much, I presume you've done some indepth analysis.

There was very little I liked about Empking’s entrance into the game, and he continues to not be very forthright: his #369 responses to Set’s questions still rely entirely on “gut” when we’re 15 pages in.

Why is that scummy?

(Actually howe isn't forthright. My read on Nameless is gut. I say that its gut.)

His case on KTS in #357—active lurking, lurker voting, vote hopping, all sounds like stuff he is doing as well, while pretending to scumhunt on KTS. I can’t imagine both playslots are scum, just because I can’t see scumbuddies interacting with each other like this, but at this point, I have to think one or the other is.

Actually, bugger this.

How am I asctive lurking?
How am I lurker voting (Seriously, WTF)?

Now give us some in depth analysis of how you know that I'm only "pretending" to scum hunt?

And part of the reason this feels

Seriously you complain about me using icky gut voting and then you talk about "feels". BS. Complete BS.

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon

That's just nonsense.