A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Shadow1psc]

ICE seemed like genuine (if bull-headed and rude) frustrated townie. I see what he pointed out with xvart as a major scumtell, and increasing the pressure seems in order.

unvote vote:xvart

... I'd like you to point out exactly the tell you're talking about.

[danakillsu]

If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?



I like both diddin and GreyICE for lynching

This one. Implies heavily that he has a townread on GreyICE, then says he likes him for lynching.

[Zdenek]

Oh Really? That last one was posted less than 24 hours ago.

Sorry, the other posts stood out more for me than they should have.

[Shadow1psc]

If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?



I like both diddin and GreyICE for lynching

This one. Implies heavily that he has a townread on GreyICE, then says he likes him for lynching.

That's what I thought. You wanna go back and read that exact post AGAIN? This is half the reason there's even a wagon on Xvart, probably not even the scum half =\

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not liking Zoraster's posts. They all seem geared towards an avoidance of scum hunting: the discussion of how the governor power could be used and the one about role-fishing.

Oh Really? That last one was posted less than 24 hours ago.

Sure I talked about the governor, but I was having a conversation about it due to questions being asked of me.

Anyway, I'm happy to lynch Raivann. In particular, I didn't like this post. Why should having a town read on someone mean they shouldn't vote for you? Doesn't make sense... it's trying to stop a wagon by buddying up.

VOTE: Raivann

Interesting that you choose to react to the more weakly presented version of the case Zdenek made than the one I first posted.

585 lays out quite nicely why your behavior is scummy. Feel free to use the 'ostrich head in the sand' tactic.

Let's have some more Zoraster votes everyone!

[danakillsu]

Not seeing what you're talking about. Would you be so kind as to explain it?

[Shadow1psc]

GreyICE is town.

Pretty sure Shadow is town.

DGB doesn't make sense. As town or as scum. I have personal experience with this from Stars Aligned II. Nulltelling her.

$10 says Hasdgfas is faking his post restriction. It's cute, but it's also nonsensical from a setup POV. Undecided on scumminess; not enough information yet. Nulltell.

Don't like Benmage. Don't like "Mow down all the VIs." Don't like DGB's #166 treating it like a towntell.

This thread requires Percy, xtomx, and Feysal posting. And more Mikujin. And...well, too many others. But let's start there.

If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

THIS IS WHAT XVART WAS RESPONDING TO. HE NEVER SAID GREYICE WAS TOWN. JESUS CHRIST PEOPLE.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not seeing what you're talking about. Would you be so kind as to explain it?

I think Shadow has clearly demonstrated why not looking back at the source material is dangerous.

Did you go back and actually look at the original post? GreyICE may have inadverntantly edited it to look bad. GreyICE may have purposefully done so. In either case it is not a valid 'slip'.

[Bunnylover]

Because I can't get any momentum for this wagon

Unvote: Hasdgfas

I am in agreeance to vote against Raivann. That last post was just lol. Don't vote me dude, I'm town and I got a town read on you!!!!

Vote: Raivann

[Shadow1psc]

I wasn't even the first person to point it out! It was brought to light then swept under the rug when GreyICE imploded, before he had time to back-pedal, or get caught up in it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

xvart (5) Thor665, chesskid3, GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm

Add dana to the end of this wagon as he voted after this vote-count by the Mods.. I more highly suspect those appearing after GreyICE posts his ‘find’. On full review xvart was responding to diddin’s 252 directed at Magua but his post at 338 only included diddin’s statement. More likely that GreyICE didn’t go back to review the original post and thus didn’t try to ‘misquote’.

GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm, Dana

<---At least 1 scum here.

[zoraster]

Yours is equally as weak, but I'm not interested in getting into another conversation on governor powers that you seem to NEED to get the last word on -- whether or not that's helpful to the town. Your question you posed is no better than mine, in fact it's one that obfuscates the issue. But sure, I'll respond to you.

Zoraster’s reaction to the little bit of questioning being supplied is interesting. Up until page 20 I would characterize his posting as mostly fluff and active lurking. Some random votes thrown down, comical not-game relevant comments to the mod and a total lack of scum-hutning.

I admit from page 3-14 I wasn't around. That wasn't really intentional lurking, but as I said I had a couple of games start at the same time and got more involved in the other while this one moved quickly at first.

Your other comments are indicative of a lazy iso-read designed entirely to make a case. In other words, you didn't put much effort into it, you read an iso with an eye to trying to make me seem scummy. I posted my reads when I had them. I posted some with jokes, but so what? This is a game I joined for fun, and I thought the joke was appropriate. Most of my posts, in fact, have been responses to your sophist arguments designed to "win" the argument rather than get at any actual truth.

The truth is this: I have posted my honest reads on the subject when I've had them. I think my scum hunting has actually been quite a bit more effective than your long-winded variety.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yours is equally as weak, but I'm not interested in getting into another conversation on governor powers that you seem to NEED to get the last word on -- whether or not that's helpful to the town. Your question you posed is no better than mine, in fact it's one that obfuscates the issue. But sure, I'll respond to you.

Funny I NEED to get the last word in on the governor debate? Yet you go out of your way to do just that yourself.

The problem, sir, is not what side of the governor debate you fall on but that it’s a non-scum hunting exercise either way. One that you were more than happy to indulge.

I admit from page 3-14 I wasn't around. That wasn't really intentional lurking, but as I said I had a couple of games start at the same time and got more involved in the other while this one moved quickly at first.

I said you were ACTIVE lurking. Big difference. Your posts in that range were all fluffy little nuggets or unsupported vote-hopping. It's only when you were called out for such that you began posting in volume. Still not scum-hunting but still posting.

Your other comments are indicative of a lazy iso-read designed entirely to make a case. In other words, you didn't put much effort into it, you read an iso with an eye to trying to make me seem scummy. I posted my reads when I had them. I posted some with jokes, but so what? This is a game I joined for fun, and I thought the joke was appropriate.

Most of my posts, in fact, have been responses to your sophist arguments designed to "win" the argument rather than get at any actual truth.

Aha, a page from the GreyICE book – attack the accuser with negative language.

1. Firstly I didn’t ISO you to build a case. Nice of you to attempt to say it was. It’s a direct observation of your play in the game. Had I done an ISO I would have produce a nice long wall directly showing said scummy play via your own posts.
2. And I see the ‘I joined to have fun’ defense. The problem is not with posting jokes but with posting jokes in lieu of game related content.
3. Bolded for emphasis – what? You’ve had minimal direct interaction with me. Most of your post lately were aimed at MAGUA. Do you not recognize we are different players?

The truth is this: I have posted my honest reads on the subject when I've had them. I think my scum hunting has actually been quite a bit more effective than your long-winded variety.

Another example that amounts to dismissive rhetoric and in summary is basically ‘No U’.

@Everyone – I invite you to review Zoraster’s ISO for yourself. Draw your own conclusions about the honestly of his scum-hunting.

[zoraster]

Ooops. You're right. I got you and Magua mixed up in this case. My bad.

[chesskid3]

MoI is scummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Magua]

@Magua: I see your point, but not the 3 other people voting [

diddin

]. He's definitely not worth voting over some of the other people here =\

I don't think GreyICE (whom you are voting for) is scum. Who else do you find worth voting for over diddin?

@Shadow:

Please answer.

But really this is whole thing is starting to feel like a theory discussion which in turn isn't scum hunting. Do you find us, or others like us scummy for wanting to throw away this power?

I am finding you null-to-scummy at this point. Nothing to do with the governor -- I believe other people can legitimately disagree with me. The thing with you all is, you have posts, and the posts have content, but there's a complete lack of any of you pushing a lynch or trying to do something. You vote Shadow, but don't push; you vote ASoIaF, but don't push. This is doubly strange because not only are you not pushing on the ASoIaF/Thor lynch, it's obvious the lynch isn't going anywhere. xvart, diddin, Raivann, Locke Lamora -- you don't comment on *any* of these lynches, and you're not really trying to get *any* other lynches going.

That's my read.

[danakillsu]

Hey, I sort of messed up there, but I don't see how that makes me scummy. I still don't know why xvart responded in that way originally if he never called ICE town. But admittedly, he didn't.

unvote vote: Mikujin

People not on that wagon should iso him/her.

[Shadow1psc]

@Magua: Thor665, chesskid3, GreyICE, Raivann, Xtoxm are the people that were on Xvart. Chesskid will be chesskid and is all over the place. He's not nearly as explosive as I've seen, and this doesn't put me at ease. There's a storm a brewin' on Raivann there, and I can see that for simple reasons already ponited out. dana just retracted, but his initial vote shows a lack of reading closely (again, I was not the first to point out the erroneous case against Xvart), but may not be scummy. I know I've done my fair share of skimming.

Xtoxm moved well up my list with his post(s) this morning.

[chesskid3]

MOI
MOI
MOI
THREE CHEERS FOR DEAD MOI!

[Locke Lamora]

Right, my main thoughts on reading through the last few pages:

I'm tired of people talking about the governor ability. Let's lynch Mikujin. I get the feeling her DGB votes are more based on the idea that DGB is being stupid than DGB is being scummy. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of conviction that DGB is actually scum.

Would you characterize Miku’s vote as similar to your lacklustre push on DGB as scum? Do you still think she (or her slot, pending outcome) is scum?

No. I would characterise Miku's vote as based on 'unacceptable' rather than scummy behaviour from DGB. Miku later said it was scummy, but didn't really explain how, and then indicated his lack of genuine interest in the issue by not reading the mod's note on the restriction properly. The whole thing looked like a struggle to even pull up a reason to call someone scummy. You can call my push on DGB lacklustre, and you obviously don't agree with it, but I was quite clear about what I found scummy. I also think that Miku's DGB 'case' on this subject is about the only attempt at scumhunting in his entire ISO, and that's why my vote's staying where it is.

Agree with MoI on the topic of the Xvart votes after Grey's case. It reads to me like Grey genuinely misunderstood Xvart's post after going back to look at it, but Raivann basically just said 'oh yeah, great case' and hopped on the wagon, exhibiting no actual interest in genuinely exploring the case or even indicating that he understood what it was. Xtoxm's is more ambiguous, but likely to be largely based on the same 'tell', while Dana's 'major scumtell' comment demonstrates a similar level of interest in Grey's case to Raivann, but also indicates that Dana hadn't even been paying attention to the same page, where more than one person had pointed out that Grey's case misrepped Xvart. For that reason I think it's more likely that Raivann is scum trying to sheep an easy case.

Zoraster: why do you think Mikujin is genuine in his caution? Is that gut, or have you picked up on something else? Do you think that Mikujin's approach to scumhunting makes him likely to be town?

[chesskid3]

@ Mod: can i get a dayvig plz?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ Mod: can i get a dayvig plz?

Sure

Daykill: Chesskid

[chesskid3]

why you little

OMGUS DayKill: MoI

[Kast]

@Diddin-
The Raivann case has merit.

@Chess-
It seems like you are putting lots of effort into being a VI. Why?

@LL-
Thoughts on anything other than Mikujin? (Rehashing MoI on xvart-"tell" is fine, anything else?)

@Xtoxm-
Content please.

@LMP, 587-
How does it not make sense? Zoraster tried to distance on LL while coasting along. I engaged his throwaway comments, he tried to appease me by buddying and bussing LL.

@Zdenek-
-Yes, that's kinda the point behind asking for it. I didn't expect him to provide anything, but if he did, that would have been nice.
-Mudslinging as a general term refers to discrediting a person or position by attacking negative characteristics the subject. However, in the context of a mafia game, it more specifically refers to malicious attacks aimed at negative aspects of a person/position

instead of

attacks aimed at legitimate problems with the person/position.

This is frequently used to falsely implicate someone as scum by attacking negative aspects of the person's character, even though those aspects don't actually indicate affiliation.

--In our context, I discredited GreyIce's weak attacks by legitimately pointing out that they are overreactions. To call that "mudslinging" AND claim it is a scum-tell, is inconsistent with your own behavior which similarly called the same posts "exaggerations" etc, and inconsistent with not attacking others who posted similarly to GreyIce and others.
--Also in our context, you are claiming the italicized portion, despite the fact that I did not and am not pushing GreyIce as probable scum, and to the contrary, pointed out his overreactions as neutral/null.

You attacked GreyICE for things that don't have an obvious bearing on his alignment. The scum motivation for it is that it allows scum to paint someone as scummy for no real reason, simply because it is easy for others to conflate negative aspects of a person with scummy ones.

This is equivalent to:

-I tried push GreyIce's "negative but not scummy behavior" as if it was scummy behavior

Why did you say it was "something else"?

Your claim that dismissing GreyIce's bad cases are "attacks" on GreyIce is a pretty big misrepresentation.

@Zoraster, 598-
Lol. I pressure you, you buddy me and vote my [LL] case.
MoI pressures you, you buddy him and vote his [Raivann] case.

Appeasement much?

@Everyone – I invite you to review Zoraster’s ISO for yourself. Draw your own conclusions about the honestly of his scum-hunting.

I think it's clear how I feel on Zoraster, and he'd be fine as a deadline compromise. However, I think LL is a far more capable-scum player and in that sense a better lynch for today.

[chesskid3]

I don't want to die at night because I have an awesome PR
that's why the VI act