Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[bobsnox]

@ bobsnox
Why did you let this go so easily?

I get tired of running into brick walls, basically.

Maybe you'll get something better out of him.

[Yosarian2]

If Yosarian has any town sense left, he won't out his actual results until after (if) I am made to claim

(nods) Yeah, unless a tracker actually catches a scum killing someone, claiming unnecessary details is generally a bad idea, it just tells the scum who's a power role and who isn't.

[DLG]

werewolf has a horrible vote on Llamarble.

Darla's vote on Llamarble looks like a justified ("he is sheeping, lynch him!") rather than a believed vote.

Despite Jahudo voting (and then unvoting) Llamarble he seems to be taking a no-strong-accusations approach. "There are some questionable motives on Yos, there are some questionable motives on Llama, I have a strong-scum read on Darla, let's vote Llama to 'help the arms race'". Not a good vote.

Bud's reasoning abilities have collapsed somewhat and he has stuck on the Llama vote apparently because Llama didn't get lynched day 1. I can just imagine the cases that will be made if Llama doesn't get lynched day 2.

As it is I'm uneasy about Llama being town, but the votes on him just seem so poor...

Jahudo's vote seemed the worst, but I'm not too sure about the unvote...

Conspiracy theory: Yos/Fate/Llama are having more fun bussing than they've ever had before. Game over town. Game over.

So, none of these votes meet your quality standards. But, are any of them in any way indicative of the main question here? You know, that little alignment question.

[DLG]

If Yosarian has any town sense left, he won't out his actual results until after (if) I am made to claim

(nods) Yeah, unless a tracker actually catches a scum killing someone, claiming unnecessary details is generally a bad idea, it just tells the scum who's a power role and who isn't.

Alright, I was hoping that would be your response.

[DLG]

@ bobsnox
Why did you let this go so easily?

I get tired of running into brick walls, basically.

Maybe you'll get something better out of him.

Sure, but you didn't even press the point.

For me, it's highly important because I've had a reasonable town read on Bub Bidderskins for most of the game, and this issue is making me reconsider that stance.

[bobsnox]

@ bobsnox
Why did you let this go so easily?

I get tired of running into brick walls, basically.

Maybe you'll get something better out of him.

Sure, but you didn't even press the point.

For me, it's highly important because I've had a reasonable town read on Bub Bidderskins for most of the game, and this issue is making me reconsider that stance.

sorry?

do you want me to do something at this point?

ISO him or something.

[Empking]

Vote Count 35

1. bobsnox
2. DarlaBlueEyes (3) - bobsnox, Fate, Jahudo
3. werewolf555 (1) - DavidParker
4. DLG
5. Jahudo
6. Bub Bidderskins (3) - Fishythefish, DLG, llamarble
7. Fishythefish
8. Brokenscraps
9. DavidParker
10. Fate (2) - Yosarian2, werewolf555
11. Yosarian2
13. llarmable (1) - Bub Bidderskins,

Not Voting: brokenscraps, DarlaBlueEyes

With 12 alive its 7 to lynch

[Fishythefish]

I'm around, but I don't have much to say right now. Waiting for BB to respond. And DBE, but no pressure - I hope things work out ok.

[DavidParker]

I'm happy to leave my vote where it is until i see a DBE response at this point.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Having re-read the sequence after bobsnox pointed out the potential scumslip by Bub Bidderskins, I find some more concern with the fact that Bub Bidderskins tried to keep the focus of that situation on the "chickened out" part rather than addressing the real point. I also note that both bobsnox and Llamarble allow the debate to go that way instead of focusing in on the potential problem.

@ Bub Bidderskins
Do you have any comment specific to your usage of pointing out that it was "townies" who left the Llamarble wagon?

It wasn't a slip, it was the truth. It wasn't the scum's fault that Llamarble wasn't lynched (although they may have helped). The townies simply chickened out. Llamarble is currently in a state of denial about the chickening out thing, and is refusing to come to grips with reality. That's why I kept on the chickening out thing, because for some reason Llamarble couldn't get that fact into his thick head.

I do not like Fate's fake claim one bit. As a matter of fact:

unvote, vote: Fate

Fate, what were you trying to acomplish with this gambit, assuming you are town?

As for the Darla deal, I found Llamarble's actions at the time to be scummier than Darla's. Nothing new was coming from the Darla wagon, and I thought we had a better chance of hitting scum if we lynched Llamarble. Darla has slipped off the radar as of late, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until she gets caught up.

[Fate]

"I don't like it one bit"

No reasons eh?

While Darla is in forever-VLA mode...

Unvote:
Vote: Budder

Win

[Fate]

inb4omgusaccusation'

Try not to be so predictable Budderscums

[Jahudo]

What is the scum motivation for the fake gambit, Bub? Just because something looks like a bad or illogical move for town does not mean it is a good or logical move for scum.

Bub's case looks a little opportunistic.

[bobsnox]

;_; I want my Darla lynch

UNVOTE: Darla

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

[Fate]

You can't lynch scum that are having a bad day RL, its just too cruel.

[Llamarble]

@ Llamarble
Same question as the one to bobsnox, but even more I would have expected you to really go after this point as opposed to arguing about "chickened out".

I didn't think it was a huge issue; in that situation Bubtown thinks I'm scum and thus assumes the people on my wagon were likely townies. Or Bubscum knows they're townies. Or Bub is using townie as a substitute for "player" instead of "town-aligned player." I tend to care more about actions & logic than wording unless I see wording that strikes me as remarkably unlikely from one alignment.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Fate, you did a great job of not answering my question. Let me repeat:

What were you trying to acomplish with that gambit?

Also, I loled at bobnox' reasons for voting for me.[/sarcasm]

[Fate]

I've already answered that question and it would be apparent to anyone actually KEEPING UP with this thread.

Now its up to you to decide if it makes sense coming from town or scum, though it looks like you care more about mislynching thann finding scum

[bobsnox]

@ Llamarble
Same question as the one to bobsnox, but even more I would have expected you to really go after this point as opposed to arguing about "chickened out".

I didn't think it was a huge issue; in that situation Bubtown thinks I'm scum and thus assumes the people on my wagon were likely townies. Or Bubscum knows they're townies. Or Bub is using townie as a substitute for "player" instead of "town-aligned player." I tend to care more about actions & logic than wording unless I see wording that strikes me as remarkably unlikely from one alignment.

I think that Bub's case of bad wording involved bad logic...

[DavidParker]

You can't lynch scum that are having a bad day RL, its just too cruel.

Translation: We can't mislynch Darla because she is having a bad day RL. So let's mislynch Bub today and then we can mislynch Darla tomorrow.

UNVOTE, VOTE FATE

[Fate]

Uh, lol?

[Jahudo]

David, do you think Fate was using that as justification to switch wagons? From how I read it he had already given his reason for switching. That line looked inconsequential to me.

Bub, what's your Fate scumtell?

Where is brokenscraps and why isn't he giving scumreads?

[Empking]

werewolf has been prodded.

[DLG]

I think that Bub's case of bad wording involved bad logic...

This I agree with if it was just bad word choice.

@ Bub Bidderskins
Who are you referring to as having lost their nerve?

By my read, there are three players who could be described in this fashion. That is, they left the Llamarble wagon specifically when he got to L-1.

Fishythefish was the first, when I was poised to hammer. This has been debated at some length. Final Fires did it late in Day 1. This play put MoreWhisky at L-1. We know he was town. This, therfore, hasn't gotten much scrutiny.

The third instance, which has not been even mentioned, was Nikanor (now Fate) shortly after Llamarble claimed VT. This unvote saved Llamarble from a hammer from CryMeARiver.

The problem with Bub Bidderskins' characterization of players leaving the Llamarble wagon as "townies", is that the two remaining players who could be considered to have "chickened out" is that he is now attacking Fate and has stated a firm belief that Fishythefish is inextricably tied to Llamarble. There is a deep contradiction in this line of thought, and leads me to believe that this may have been more than just a bad word choice.

[DLG]

Translation: We can't mislynch Darla because she is having a bad day RL. So let's mislynch Bub today and then we can mislynch Darla tomorrow.

This is a rather large leap you've made. Can you explain in more detail how you arrived at this conclusion?