Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[Hiraki]

RobCapone can die too.

Can I get a good case on subgenius? His play doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

[Snake Eyes]

Subgenius' case on Hiraki doesn't feel unnatural to me. Hiraki has yet to explain why he didn't explain his FoS in the first post. It's perfectly plausible to mix Barry and Bill because of the similar usernames, but the main point of the issue seems to be that he didn't provide reasoning in the first post.

Hey Mr. Eyes, why do you feel the need to defend subgenius?

Wasn't particularly trying to defend subgenius. Initially your case on subgenius seemed to have potential, so I went back and looked through his posts, and found that they weren't as scummy as Bill's, so I wrote that as an explanation. This was before his "townreads are scummy" tirade though, so he looks somewhat scummier now.

1) How do you reconcile these two statements, and what is your impression of the writer after making them?

I'm sorry. I know I should have started in a newbie game, and I know I look extremely scummy right now. I apologize that me feeling like I could just jump right into a mini game could ruin this game for all of you. Honestly, I don't have much I could possibly say in defense of myself right now. I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be. I also did not realize that I was opening up an opportunity for mafia to throw open the floodgates and blitz a mislynch. But practice makes perfect. And you gotta learn from your mistakes. And I've learned all right. .-. But that's truly all I can say. I'm not going to sit here and beg you not to lynch me. I know I look scummy as all get out. I know what I'd think if I saw anyone else do that. But if I'm getting lynched, I wanna go out on a good note, and I truly do apologize for plunging on in here without a clue as to what I was doing. >.<

I'm an aggressive player. I like to throw my FoS's out there swiftly.

Bonus points: Find what's missing.

2) Rob has a meta of being an extremely active poster, except for the last game I was in where he was scum (Mini: 1105). Do you think that his gameplay here is similar, and is that a good reason to suspect him?

3) I have a one-shot power that allows me to choose three players, and one of them will be vigged at random. If I had to submit right now, whose names should I submit (brief explanation would be nice)?

1. wikkiden reads newbie/VI more than any specific alignment. I'm content to let him be and see if I can get a read on him later.

2. Didn't read that game, but Rob doesn't seem to be lurking here. I'm not particularly keen on meta tells or policy lynching a lurker, for that matter.

3. Top 2 candidates are Bill and subgenius, not just because they're scummy but also because lots of people have taken a stance on them. Some candidates for slot 3 are wikkiden and our two lurkers.

[Dekes]

Votecount 1.2

subgenius (L-3): Erratus Apathos, GreyICE, Ashblade, RobCapone
Bill McQuill (L-4): Hiraki, Papa Zito, Snake Eyes
Hiraki (L-6): subgenius
wikkiden (L-6): Bill McQuill

Not voting: mockingjaye, wikkiden, Barry Allen, Hayker

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 7 to no lynch.

Deadline is

March, the 3rd, at 06:00 p.m. EST

[Barry Allen]

This has been a very fast paced game so far - I like that but it took about an hour and a half to chart out what everyone has been saying so far and to take a really good look at the thread. Doing that has given me a new outlook - and a vote...and here's why, with a read on some of the players...

Wikki - at this point I'm not as concerned as I was earlier. I would agree for now with Snake Eyes, stating that this looks more newbie/VI than anything else.

Papa Zito - would like to see you post more, as I do have a question. You "support a bw on sub, by the way" in Post 188, but your vote is still on Bill. Why? I don't have a scum read on you right now, but I would like to know a bit more about this seeming contradiction.

Ashblade - I think a vote for you would be more a reaction to the tone of your posts rather than a logical argument. I've gone back and forth with you on your "all over the place" claim, and in truth the person who is "all over the place" is....You. But, you strike me at this point as a very over-aggressive townie. I don't want to waste a ML just because you are annoying me, and it would be highly unusual for a scum to be so silly as to go this over the top on D1.

Bill McQuill - I agree with Zito's point about your post on EA. You appeared to argue against voting EA, then voted him anyway. Your later attempts to explain this didn't make logical sense to me. You are one of my top two, but the other one is no longer wikki....but rather...

subgenius - I am struck by several things in your posts. You kept after Hiraki for a number of posts for his mistaken FoS on me, continuing to press on why there wasn't an explanation posted with the FoS at the time. Then, you backpedal in some of your posts, while stating that Hiraki looks scummy for backpedaling. You accuse Hiraki of "rewriting history", and though I may be missing it, I don't see that point.

To me the top two candidates are now Bill and Sub...and my vote is:

VOTE: subgenius

which should place him at L-2. We still have room for debate, and I do look forward to reading more. Before I stop, though, I do want to call out our lurkers...where are you, Hayker and Mockingjaye? Lurking is not cool...

[RobCapone]

RobCapone can die too.

Can I get a good case on subgenius? His play doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

hey there mr. lurker, why don't you make a case for the person you are voting for because the reason you gave doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

btw I think I am the 2nd person who you said can die, this comment doesn't catapult you to the automatic town category btw, if anything you are purposely avoiding content posting by making ridiculous statements.

btw you said in an earlier post that every mistake you make, sub posts lol scum and that you don't care about pleasing him anymore

trying to please somebody to me seems like trying to act town, if you are town than you should not be trying to please anyone
also if sub kept calling you scum, what is the problem with lynching him?

[subgenius]

subgenius - I am struck by several things in your posts. You kept after Hiraki for a number of posts for his mistaken FoS on me, continuing to press on why there wasn't an explanation posted with the FoS at the time. Then, you backpedal in some of your posts, while stating that Hiraki looks scummy for backpedaling. You accuse Hiraki of "rewriting history", and though I may be missing it, I don't see that point.

Everything you write might be true, but you don't point out how any of this makes me scum. The backpedal was based on a confused reading. I admitted it without any pressure and re-framed questions based on my new understanding of Bill's post. Bill then corrected me, so I reversed my backpedal. Read the exchange, and I think it makes sense.

Papa Zito - would like to see you post more, as I do have a question. You "support a bw on sub, by the way" in Post 188, but your vote is still on Bill. Why? I don't have a scum read on you right now, but I would like to know a bit more about this seeming contradiction.

also if sub kept calling you scum, what is the problem with lynching him? (@Hiraki)

I just thought I'd point out that the two late-comers to my wagon have both had somewhat questionable reasoning (Barry because he doesn't agree with my Hiraki case, RobCapone because--i don't know--a townie wouldn't play like I play?). Also, they have both since directed posts at folks who voted elsewhere that would seem to be urging them to put the final votes on me. It could just be me, but the quotes above both seem like pretty shady attempts to push my wagon. I've been humbled enough in the last few pages that I'll moderate my accusations a bit, but I do not like these posts at all considering I'm at L-2 and we still have over a week and a half before the deadline.

[Barry Allen]

@ sub - you consider backpedaling as evidence of scumminess when applied to others, yet you don't think so when it is applied to you? I also note you didn't try to explain your "rewriting history" post on Hiraki. btw - you are backpedaling and trying to please the town at the same time with your "I've been humbled enough that I'll moderate my accusations a bit" post. At this point in time, you look scummiest to me based on 1. Your hounding of Hiraki past the point of usefulness on the FoS post, 2. Your going all over the place with your posts (I know you have denied doing so, but the one thing Ashblade and I agree on is this point - you are all over the place), 3. Backpedaling in the same post where you claim this behavior is scummy when applied to another player. For this point in the game, that's enough to merit a vote from me.

As for Papa Zito - my post simply questions why he is voting one way and supporting a BW on someone else. That being said, if I am voting for someone, why would I

not

be in favor of others voting that way?

We do have more time to talk - I've certainly been wrong before, so I'm always willing to listen. But for now, my vote stays.

[RobCapone]

That quote of mine wasn't pushing your lynch as it was questioning his stance

if someone calls me scum, I don't defend that person's wagon

that is essentially what hiraki has done, I don't care if he votes you but he asks for reasons why people are voting you, when his reason for his vote is essentially nonsense.

[subgenius]

you consider backpedaling as evidence of scumminess when applied to others, yet you don't think so when it is applied to you? I also note you didn't try to explain your "rewriting history" post on Hiraki.

Yeah, backpedaling, changing your opinion, and claiming a post meant one thing they appear to mean something different

as a response to someone confronting you about contradictions and weaknesses

is scummy, imo.

I'll point you to exactly what I meant by rewriting history, feel free to agree or disagree, but don't go and say that I didn't explain myself. That's an out and out lie. I think you'll find I go to great pains to explain myself, and I think that's part of why I find myself at L-2.

I guess I missed the point because

you implied in your first post that it didn't make any sense to vote based on a "decent chance", not that voting based on assumed motivations makes no sense. I don't think these two quotes mean the same thing.

Sorry that I can't read your thoughts. Again, this makes me feel like you're rewriting history.

(Post 181)
By 'rewriting history', I meant claiming an earlier post meant something different after being confronted about it.

Contrast this with the backpedaling you accuse me of, which simply was an attempt to correct myself for a misreading. I thought I made a mistake and wanted to clear it up. The difference is that I was trying to correct a mistake, not evade a question by rewriting a previous post. I'd call the post referring to ironic, but not scummy.

re:going all over the place: I think this has been thrown around a bit this game as a good non-specific reason to vote for someone... Maybe I am, maybe not. It sounds negative, so why not throw it in as 'evidence'.

As for Papa Zito - my post simply questions why he is voting one way and supporting a BW on someone else.

It's a simple question about a simple contradiction with a simple solution of casting a vote. This is more of a leading question than you let on.

That being said, if I am voting for someone, why would I not be in favor of others voting that way?

Because one more vote puts me at L-1, which could very easily end the day a week and a half ahead of time.

That quote of mine wasn't pushing your lynch as it was questioning his stance

Same thing as Barry, simple question, and it could be innocent, but it implies a certain amount of pressure to change votes.

[RobCapone]

There is no rule that says we can't end the day early, the deadline is there to make surecwe don't go too long but if a consensus is reached earlier, there is nothing wrong with that.

And you bringing it up doesn't help your position at all.

[subgenius]

And you bringing it up doesn't help your position at all.

Please explain.

[RobCapone]

it seems like you are trying to stall the inevitable and hope something happens to get the attention off of you, the deadline means nothing in the grand scheme of things if people are convinced you are scum.

[subgenius]

Seems like that would be beneficial from my point of view whether I was town or scum. Scum out of a sense of self preservation, town out of hopes that more time=more info=more chances to find scum, not to mention avoiding a ML.

[Barry Allen]

OK, let's talk "all over the place" and "backpedaling"...

Post 138

Decent Chance and voting. Ehehehemeee. No, this doesn't make any sense.

I already said this, but I think feeling that a person has a "decent chance" of being scum is more than enough reason to cast a vote against them. I don't consider Bill's vote or use of the word "decent" scummy or nonsensical.

Are you honestly going to tell me that you're more than "decently" sure of Bill's alignment?

Why didn't you write out your reasons out when you first FoS'd Barry?

Then in Post 144

I already said this, but I think feeling that a person has a "decent chance" of being scum is more than enough reason to cast a vote against them. I don't consider Bill's vote or use of the word "decent" scummy or nonsensical.

Doh, I just realized I was misreading Bill's post, and that he was saying there's a decent chance of Erratus being town rather than scum. Oops. Before I get called out on this misreading, I'll go ahead and admit that Hiraki's reasoning makes more sense than I originally thought, but I still find his backpedaling extremely suspicious. Also, I'd still like to know why an explanation wasn't posted with the original FoS.

Then in Post 151

No, that's a misinterpretation. A ballsy player from either alignment might post that they did not vote for the quicker day start.

Cool, then let the record show that I wish to have my earlier apology stricken from the record. I am now back to my original level of finger pointing at Hiraki.

...all over the place, and backpedaling, then backpedaling from backpedaling...further, you are using Bill's explanation of his own post (which frankly looks bad for Bill) as evidence on Hiraki (who actually voted Bill). Either you are reading the thread very poorly and have to go back and restate yourself frequently, or you are going back and forth without good reason. You state that backpedaling is scummy when applied to Hiraki, but fail to recognize it in yourself.

As for your explanation of "rewriting history", I still don't see it. The last comment you quoted from Hiraki appears more LOL/snarky than a rewrite of history. You are talking about what Hiraki's post implies rather than what it actually says, and at this point I disagree with your conclusion regarding those posts. At this point, my vote stays.

[subgenius]

you are using Bill's explanation of his own post (which frankly looks bad for Bill)

Here's some more subtle prompting to get the last few votes on me.

Anyhow, I don't see anything else new in this post. You've made your accusations, I've given my explanations. I admitted to misreading, I explained why I thought Hiraki's backpedal was scummy and mine was not, and you can disagree with my case all you want, but it doesn't make me scum.

At this point I'd rather wait for some more people to contribute than continue running in circles on this.

[Dekes]

Hayker has received his first prod.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito - would like to see you post more, as I do have a question. You "support a bw on sub, by the way" in Post 188, but your vote is still on Bill. Why? I don't have a scum read on you right now, but I would like to know a bit more about this seeming contradiction.

I'm sorry, is this a serious post?

Please tell me this is not a serious post.

Hi. Sorry I'm late getting started. I'm catching up now and will post later this afternoon or evening.

Holding you to this. Expecting miracles.

I didn't get my miracles.

You don't deny me my miracles.

UNVOTE: Bill McQuill
VOTE: mockingjaye


P.S. If mockingjaye flips scum Rob must be turbolynched with extreme prejudice.

[Barry Allen]

@ Papa Zito - yes that was a serious post. You voted for Bill, but later posted that you supported a BW on sub without changing your vote.

I support subgenius wagon btw.

See? Just quoting you from the same post where you originally called out mockingjaye. I didn't get the contradiction - if you were simply kidding, say so. I didn't FoS you - just wanted to understand what looked like a contradiction on the surface.

@ sub - Oh noes, posting a case = "encouraging others to vote"... Seriously, sub, that's WIFOM plain and simple - if you want to make the act of presenting a case look shady, then you could say that about anyone's case at any time. If you disagree with the case, then disagree with the case - but stop with the "poor me" speech after you spent so much time "encouraging others to vote" with your own cases.

[RobCapone]

P.S. If mockingjaye flips scum Rob must be turbolynched with extreme prejudice.

this makes no sense whatsoever

[Papa Zito]

@ Papa Zito - yes that was a serious post. You voted for Bill, but later posted that you supported a BW on sub without changing your vote.

...

You ARE aware that there's more than one bad guy out there right?

Lurking.

Waiting.

(hide yo kids, hide yo wife)

Speaking of lurkers...

this makes no sense whatsoever

Oh, it makes perfect sense. But we'll get to that later.

[RobCapone]

ok can't wait

[RobCapone]

zito how do you go from supporting a subs wagon to trying to de-rail it when he is L-2, just curious

[Papa Zito]

I wasn't on his wagon so I don't really see how changing my vote does anything there.

Also competing bandwagons are tech.

[RobCapone]

but you supported his wagon and now it is at L-2 you seem to be avoiding it, idk just doesn't make sense to me.

[Barry Allen]

Papa - do I need to quote your post again where you explicitly supported a BW on sub?

I support subgenius wagon btw.

My question was more curiosity at first - just asking why you were voting one way while supporting a BW on someone else. Your denial of supporting a sub BW now simply does not correspond to your own earlier post. Vote who you want - but please do not support your present stand by stating something that is clearly not true.