Mini 1121: Nexusville Mafia.

[Nexus]

Votecount the Eleventh:

Empking (5): implosion, InflatablePie, KingTwelveSixteen, nameless, Darth Yoshi
Saint (2): mb53, neko2086
nameless (2): Zdenek, Empking
ICEninja (2): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Setael
implosion (1): ICEninja

Not voting: Saint

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I just realised, I'm at the dentist at 12pm on Tuesday. So, you'll have until I get home from the dentist.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

Still you push the case on Nameless. Not me. Not the apparently 100% scummy person.

When Darth Yoshi compromises that's A-OK. When I do that's unambigious evidence of my being scum. Why the contradiction? Oh, yes. Because you're scum.

What? You flat out said that I was 100% definantly scum and you arn't voting for me, and

this is the first time you've ever given a reason why you are voting for Nameless instead of me.

Whats this thing about Darth Yoshi? Whats he got to do with this? Only one person is voting for Nameless. You are compromising with one guy on a "gut" vote instead of attacking either of the other two people who you (apparently) have actual reasoning to vote for.

...

Or to put it into less passionate terms. "I was active lurking because I'm scum."

How about: "I refuse to actually argue anything instead of being overly general and giving accusations that don't contribute to the debate at all because I'm scum."

Tch, just ISOing you and I noticed these two posts were rightn next to each other

...
(And of course there aren't slips. Slips are a newbie tell.)
...

...

King admitted that he wasn't trying to scumhunt.

I goty King to admit to not trying to scumhunt or to put ity into other words I got King to admit to being scum. What have you done today?

Sounds an awful lot like these two posts should be mutually exclusive.

You still have not said whether or not your mason partner is going to confirm you.

[Empking]

Mod:

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon. In that spirit…

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

[Empking]

Whats this thing about Darth Yoshi? Whats he got to do with this?

Its an illustration about how you're clearly not honestly scumhunting but picking and choosing in order to get a townie lynched without coming out of it as too scummy.

instead of attacking either of the other two people who you (apparently) have actual reasoning to vote for.

1. Who are they?
2. I've made a case on why Nameless is scum. Oh wait, that doesn't fit with your argument, no wonder you're ignoring it.

Sounds an awful lot like these two posts should be mutually exclusive.

Are you making stuff up or are you ignorant about what the word "slip" means (in the context of Mafiascum)? Honest question.

You still have not said whether or not your mason partner is going to confirm you.

Why should they? Can you give a scum reason for claiming mason?

How about: "I refuse to actually argue anything instead of being overly general and giving accusations that don't contribute to the debate at all because I'm scum."

I've provided cases on two players and provided conclusing evidence for you beiong scum. (Unfortunately it requires at least a couple of brain cells in order to see it.)

[Nexus]

Mod:

We’re 4-5 days from the deadline (for me in my time zone, it is basically four days, since the deadline is in the middle of the night), and, like other players have said, a no-lynch isn’t an option, so I agree that we need to come together on a wagon. In that spirit…

Unvote. Vote: Empking.

Fixed. Votes in the middle of a wall are hard to see. My bad.

[Zdenek]

I found his 64 terrible as well, however, the fact that I find him scummy and so does everyone else and his mother, yet he's garnering little votes for it, make's it look like he's scum and his buddies are just going "yeah, he's scummy" but aren't willing to bus.

Using relationship tells before a flip usually doesn't work too well.

Nameless' 380: I disagree with his accusation that Empking was trolling KTS.

You could be arrogant IRL, in which case stop and think a little further ahead before you post next time. For all I know you could just be an actual troll who needs to play to their win condition or gtfo.

Arguing using non-game related drivel about how Empking might be IRL, is a pointless waste of time.

Zedenek- You say there are better lynches than Ice today. Is this implying that otherwise, Ice might be a good lynch?

I do not think that Ice would be a good lynch today.

Yeah, I don't believe you. Nor do I see King lying about anything. It's also really funny how you're saying King is "100% scum", but you're not even voting him. Darth already pointed this out, though.

Why are you writing off Empking's mason claim so quickly?

I think Empking's mason claim goes part of the way to explain his behaviour: one can get away with a lot more if one has a claim that can clear them.

[DarthYoshi]

Not liking Implosion’s #382.

Implosion:

It feels like it could be an attempt to set up future mislynches.

More so than you posting full scumscales?

Nameless’s #384 is money. Implosion, I asked you about the CASE on Saint, not Saint himself.

@Ice: The reason I found it scummy (or, at least, not town, as my read on you atm isn’t scummy, but neutral) is that in #89, you say you won’t give a comprehensive list and say why—if you found simply posting the list undesirable, why didn’t you say so at first instead of *mostly* defending Nameless? This + your non-reaction to Saint’s entrance are going to be more associative tells than anything else, hence why my read on you is neutral, especially before any flips have occurred, but why I can’t yet read you as town.

@Empking:

Why would scum do that?

Any number of reasons--distancing, bussing, plausible deniability--distracting the town by highlighting an "easy lynch" without actually having your vote on the player, etc.

Yers. Its called optimum town play.

What about the full scumscale makes it optimum town play? Especially when based on gut?

Seriously. You're moaning on one hand about me providing all my reads and on the other about providing no reads. (And of course there aren't slips. Slips are a newbie tell.)

I meant reads, slips, tells, etc as examples of evidence that would be used in a Nameless case that we could then examine—they wouldn’t necessarily be coming from you. I meant that you're not offering a real case w/ your votes.

[quoteMy discussion with King has given me a 100% scum read on him.][/quote]

Then why isn’t your vote on him?

[quoteCan you say the same about me or Implosion?][/quote]

No, because this is Mafia.

And, why would a town PR claim on D1 without any prompting when they are at L-2?

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: Sorry 'bout the quote tag fail at the end of the above post.

[Empking]

And, why would a town PR claim on D1 without any prompting when they are at L-2?[/quote

Because that is the optimum play in this sitiuation (Deadline is coming up). Now, why would scum claim mason?

Also, why haven't you examined my Nameless case (or my King case).

What about the full scumscale makes it optimum town play? Especially when based on gut?

1. It allows people to see when I change my reads.
2. Either stop going "Oooh, icky gut" or replace out and join another newbie game. I've provided far more actual analysis than you have.

Any number of reasons--distancing, bussing, plausible deniability--distracting the town by highlighting an "easy lynch" without actually having your vote on the player, etc.

OK. What of those do you think is the case in this game.

Then why isn’t your vote on him?

Why isn't your vote on Implosion?

[Nameless]

... My eyes hurt.

I've made a case on why Nameless is scum.

This is rather an exaggeration. You explicitly said you were only commenting on my recent posts rather than making a full case, and you didn't explain / justify any of your points even before I refuted them.

Why should they? Can you give a scum reason for claiming mason?

Because your claim is meaningless if otherwise, if not scummy in itself since you should be able to back it up. And to avoid being lynched with a roleclaim that can't be disproved during the night, obv.

Arguing using non-game related drivel about how Empking might be IRL, is a pointless waste of time.

The game-related point of that spiel was the very next sentence you didn't quote. And that Empking might just have an arrogant attitude was literally the only reason I could imagine him acting as he is as town - a reason that by now I feel we can safely rule out.

BTW it's nice that you were careful to include a 'no relationship tells, lol' disclaimer at the start of your post, but your defence of Empking at the end of it is still noted.

[Empking]

This is rather an exaggeration. You explicitly said you were only commenting on my recent posts rather than making a full case, and you didn't explain / justify any of your points even before I refuted them.

1. All my points were explained and none were refuted.
2. Either quote where I said I wasn't making a full case or quote a resprcted sourse that says that cases must talk about every post their target has ever made.

Because your claim is meaningless if otherwise, if not scummy in itself since you should be able to back it up.

You want me to out my buddy?

And to avoid being lynched with a roleclaim that can't be disproved during the night, obv.

Avoid how many lynches?

[Setael]

Your buddy needs to verify your claim. Without that it's completely invalid and you could coast through as scum with a false mason fake claim. A few players have expressed a willingness for a mass claim, so that shouldn't bother them at all. If you are a mason, having both of you claimed also makes scum less sure who to target at night.

[Nameless]

All my points were explained

"Z but also not Z" - Dol I need to explain it.
This postsd are consecutive on his ISO. Yeah.
We all know how this is scummy.
This is scum trying to mislead.
Weak argumenty is

weak

scummy.

and none were refuted.

* What I meant in regards to Saint was that I agreed (mostly) with who he stated to be scum/town, but I found his buddying, fluff, unprovoked defense of lurkers etc. scummy. These are entirely different things.
* Making one or two lazy posts out of ~30 regular contributions does not a lurker make. Typing a scumlist and the word "gut" after 250 posts and then sitting back with a smug look on your face

does

.
* Imma use a quote for this one:

People have faulty memories. Also not a scum tell.

* What is misleading about my TOWN / SAINT post? Those are all direct quotes referring to Saint, exactly zero of which Saint had acknowledged.
* Given the context, I disagree; implosion's shenanigans with _over9000's wagon are well documented, and that he continues to hedge around Saint's wagon - despite his initial protests of 'not enough to read!' now being null - is significant. I could have elaborated instead of joked, but DarthYoshi already asked him the obvious question in #346.

[Empking]

ANSWER MY QUESTION

That's not a refution. That's you saying a bunch of random words without anyway to see if they bear any relationship tyo what I wrote. You're playing in a deliberately anti-town fashion with those "refutions".

[KingTwelveSixteen]

ANSWER MY QUESTION

...

Hypocrite. The entire huge thing that started our arguments was you refusing to answer questions and calling it a town tell.

[Nameless]

Empking, I was assuming your last questions were rhetorical, but yes. You claimed mason, now I want you to back it up. Either you can't, in which case there's no reason not to believe you are scum and lynch you. Or you do but your 'buddy' ignores you, in which case there's actually MORE reason to believe you are scum and lynch you. Or you can, in which case quite frankly I still won't believe you and we'll have one less scum to find after you flip.

Oh, and as many lynches as you can get away with, I presume.

[Saint]

I've been sick and had internet issues, but I will catch up and make a dedicated post

[Empking]

Empking, I was assuming your last questions were rhetorical,

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever heard. Also not how KingTwelve rushed as fast as his littler fingers can carry him in order to defend Nameless irrelevantly.

Oh yeah, Setael, stop being an idiot. k thx. I'm not going to claim my partner. That's justy ridiculously anti-town.

If I'm telling the truth and claim my partner: We both die in successive nights. (Actually since you're a bunch of scum following sheep its more likely that I'll be lynched and

then

my partner killed.
If I'm telling the truth and don't claim my partner; Once I'm dead you'll have a confirmed town player which is essential to counter the overwhelming stupidity present in at least half the town.
Advantage: No reveal.

If I'm lying and you allow me to not claim my partner; I get lynched once its clear I have no partner. But while I live you can see my post for links eith my scumbuddies.
If I'm lying and you force me to claim my partner: I get lynched. Woo.
Advantage: No reveal.

Now when we couple that with the fact that no sane Mafiaso we'll claim a claim that will eventually get the lynched...

[neko2086]

I meant to post something substantial yesterday, but sadly this weekend is getting eaten up by RL. Anyway, some thoughts for the moment:

The exchange between King and Emp is really distracting. Back on p 15 Setael is upset that no one is reading or commenting on his posts. It's honestly very hard to pay attention to a case against ice when 1) he's obviously not going to be a lynch candidate today and 2) Emp and King are dominating the discussion. I really don't see either one of them coming out if any better than the other. Yes, King is engaging in pointless rhetoric (annoying playstyle is not scummy), but Emp is fueling it (to cement your read? But it's clear your read has already been cemented, so why goad him on?).

Speaking of Emp's reads-- you pegged me as scum based on gut as soon as you replaced, and now you are fabricating a story around it to make that read make sense, it seems to me. Also, why do you have the impression that the town is self-destructing? This implies multiple bad wagons, and there's no way you can know if the town is self-destructing unless you know who the townies are.

Zedenek--You keep saying Ice isn't a good lynch today, but I'm not wondering about today, I'm wondering about in general, do you think he might be a good lynch? You seem to be trying to skirt the issue.

Personally, I really don't see the case on Ice at the moment. He has changed his reads, and somehow this is alarming. Reads can change, and unless I'm missing something, they've been justified. I haven't, however, had the time to look at this timing issue that Set brings up, so when I have the time later (probably tomorrow) I need to take a look at that.

If Emp is indeed mason, btw, it would indeed be really stupid for the partner to be outed. I don't like the suggestions otherwise at all.

[Empking]

If Emp is indeed mason, btw, it would indeed be really stupid for the partner to be outed. I don't like the suggestions otherwise at all.

See told you Neko was smart.

you pegged me as scum based on gut as soon as you replaced, and now you are fabricating a story around it to make that read make sense, it seems to me

I pegged a lot of people as scum in my first post but I'd call them town at this point. You on the other hand seem to be playing as I'd expect scum to play. (Honestly, I actually had two theories. 1. You were scum. 2. The third person on Saint's wagon was scum. I wasn't sure which (and then I checked the thread and learnt they were the same player.)

But it's clear your read has already been cemented, so why goad him on?

I'm not goading him on. I was trying to get him offbalanced so he'd make a mistake. He made that mistake and at this point as good as claimed scum. That was worth my time.

[neko2086]

I think saying he admitted to being scum is quite a stretch. He admited to having made posts in which he wasn't scumhunting (i.e. arguing with you), which is certainly not helpful, but this doesn't mean (in principle) that he hasn't been scumhunting elsewhere. If he weren't scumhunting elsewhere, yes this would be quite scummy. Now, whether or not he actually is doing any scumhunting is debatable, and that's another thing I need to look into, but to say he has basically admitted to being scum is a stretch.

And King, this isn't the same as saying you slipped. He's trying to show (albeit in a faulty way) that you are intentionally trying to distract the town. There's a good deal of misrep coming from both ends here.

[Setael]

Oh yeah, Setael, stop being an idiot. k thx. I'm not going to claim my partner. That's justy ridiculously anti-town.

First, I never said you should claim your partner. I think your partner should claim. It needs to be their choice to verify it. If you are town, your partner has to claim before you are lynched in order to avoid scum being able to claim your mason partner later. If your partner then claims, the town will not know who to believe and it could lead to a mislynch of your mason buddy. (This would be more likely to happen if scum was under pressure from a wagon or maybe in lylo but still. You need to be alive to verify that whoever claims to be your buddy is actually your buddy. That way if you die we'd have one confirmed townie who could probably be protected.)

You claimed mason, now I want you to back it up. Either you can't, in which case there's no reason not to believe you are scum and lynch you. Or you do but your 'buddy' ignores you, in which case there's actually MORE reason to believe you are scum and lynch you. Or you can, in which case quite frankly I still won't believe you and we'll have one less scum to find after you flip.

This statement was antitown. You tell him to claim his partner but then say you will lynch him anyway. So if he is town, you completely erase any motivation for his partner to reveal. In the position he's in, there is almost no way a scum buddy would out themselves to falsely verify the claim. (Because this close to deadline as the leading wagon there's way too high a likelihood that Emp will be lynched on Tuesday and out that scum buddy. Especially where one of them would need to be lynched to verify the mason claim and give us one confirmed townie.)

If Emp is indeed mason, btw, it would indeed be really stupid for the partner to be outed. I don't like the suggestions otherwise at all.

See told you Neko was smart.

Yep, smart like scum looking to take advantage of you not being able to verify your partner's claim.

[Empking]

Setael: Are you under the impression that we're on Htrae, the world without breadcrumbs?

[Setael]

I did a quick ISO read of nameless and it made me feel icky.

Regarding the coinflip: No, I didn't expect a wagon to form from a coinflip. My last vote was outdated, I had two equal suspects, I was lazy and I didn't expect it would make any difference to the next 24 hours. But mostly? It made me giggle. When ICEninja posed the dilemna I figured I'd better give a serious answer, though. AND NOW YOU KNOW.

I don't like this excuse for the coinflip, and I don't like that he was basically hoping his vote wouldn't lead to a wagon. Only scum are nervous about starting wagons.

His play just seems... careful. My first read through I put him as town. It actually makes sense that scum would read very townie-seeming before any flips, since they'll be trying the hardest and have the most inside information. Frankly, the post I just quoted alone is enough for my vote. The more I think about the unlikelihood of Emp's claim getting him out of a lynch, the less I think it's a fake claim. (I'm also nervous that there is no one trying to get Emp out of a lynch which wouldn't happen if he were scum.)

unvote, vote: nameless

I'm still willing to vote Emp to avoid a no lynch (and to have a confirmed townie if he's telling the truth). My hope is there'll be enough activity before tuesday to drum up a nameless wagon.

[InflatablePie]

You see, Emp, we could also lynch you without your "partner" claiming if need be. Let's assume you're town. Your partner can claim later, and if it's outside of lylo, we'll have guaranteed scum. If your partner DOES claim in lylo, we'll have a 50/50 shot if someone counterclaims your partner. Assuming one scumteam, just woke up and don't feel like doing the math for two scumteams, but how common is 9:2:2 anyways...

I don't believe the mason claim, I don't like your play, my vote stays. If your "partner" claims, I will move my vote.

I'll also look into Nameless later/tomorrow.