Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[Papa Zito]

Barry, that's an interesting dance you're doing there. Must be some sort of native tribal thing.

Currently I support wagons on Bill, mockingjaye and subgenius (hail Slack!). If any of them were to dangle in the gentle spring breezes I'd be satisfied. Conditional to those flips I would support wagons on Rob and you.

All that said, I only have one vote. And I have it placed on the one I currently find most likely to flip red.

I'm really honestly not sure why I have to explain all this.

[Barry Allen]

I think I'm just going to have to accept that this is your posting style and that I'm not going to get anything other than a flip response from you. You're not at the top of my list for now, but I will continue to watch your posts - either for evidence of scumminess or for at least the entertainment value...

[Erratus Apathos]

1. Reasonable, but not quite right. I recognized that there was justification for an EA bandwagon and that it would serve the purpose of getting the ball rolling, but also felt like it wouldn't ultimately lead anywhere or benefit from my presence.

How the hell is it even possible to think "EA wagon will get the ball rolling" and "EA wagon won't lead anywhere" at the same time? That's bullshit.
How would you even know in advance that my wagon wouldn't lead anywhere? That's also bullshit. Townies can't predict that.

subgenius is more full of shit than the bathroom at Taco Bell.

[subgenius]

@ sub - Oh noes, posting a case = "encouraging others to vote"... Seriously, sub, that's WIFOM plain and simple - if you want to make the act of presenting a case look shady, then you could say that about anyone's case at any time. If you disagree with the case, then disagree with the case - but stop with the "poor me" speech after you spent so much time "encouraging others to vote" with your own cases.

I'm not saying it's shady that you posted a case against me. I'm saying it's shady for you to hop on my bandwagon late and then prod Zito about why he doesn't have his vote on me. I think it makes you look a bit blood thirsty. All the evidence you've cited in your case against me happened early in the game, and you've been active the whole time, yet you waited until there were 4 votes on me, and now you've twice nudged others towards voting me. This has nothing to do with your case against me, and it has nothing to do with "poor me". It has to do with you opportunistically jumping on my wagon and then trying to manipulate others to finish the job. I'm probably going to be lynched today. I accept that (though I'll keep fighting until the end), but I think you're looking scummy as hell in the process.

1. Reasonable, but not quite right. I recognized that there was justification for an EA bandwagon and that it would serve the purpose of getting the ball rolling, but also felt like it wouldn't ultimately lead anywhere or benefit from my presence.

How the hell is it even possible to think "EA wagon will get the ball rolling" and "EA wagon won't lead anywhere" at the same time?

Some people hop on your bandwagon, some don't. People proceed to talk about why what you did was or wasn't scummy which then spins off into other conversations. Soon everyone forgets all about it because it was just a pretext to stir things up, and they've found bigger fish to fry. Do I really have to explain this? Isn't this a pretty accurate description of how the game actually proceeded? Just so we're clear, "anywhere" is meant as a lynch for you or, at the very least, a bandwagon with staying power.

How would you even know in advance that my wagon wouldn't lead anywhere? That's also bullshit. Townies can't predict that.

If you'll read what you quoted, I didn't claim to know anything. And yeah, townies can predict (meaning make an educated guess, not know) that. Your pre-game "slip" was on the radar before the game started, it was clearly going to be a topic of inquiry. At the same time, it wasn't enough to build a strong case around on it's own, not to mention it would be moronic for the town to quick lynch someone on day 1. It doesn't take a psychic to have a pretty good guess about how the first stages of the game are going to go in this situation. The only way it would have gone differently is if you completely imploded under the initial pressure somehow.

Also competing bandwagons are tech.

I'm honestly not sure what tech means in this context.

[subgenius]

EBWOP

VOTE: Unvote: hiraki
VOTE: vote: Barry Allen

Current status: bracing for omgus accusations.

[Erratus Apathos]

Some people hop on your bandwagon, some don't. People proceed to talk about why what you did was or wasn't scummy which then spins off into other conversations. Soon everyone forgets all about it because it was just a pretext to stir things up, and they've found bigger fish to fry. Do I really have to explain this? Isn't this a pretty accurate description of how the game actually proceeded?

No it isn't. The wagon on me was more than just a pretext, some of the votes were actual attacks:

You posted a rather unfortunate message about wanting to delay the game, then post an OMGUS vote and THEN say you had a case? Wow........

Your admission that you didn't vote to start Day 1 was silly at best, given that the game consensus was that it was likelier that scum players would want to delay the start. I'm thinking there's a decent enough chance that you're simply ballsy, and thought you'd be able to deflect the resulting attention into pressure on somebody else. Which doesn't bode well for you.

Does it look like Barry or Bill would have just forgotten my pregame post if I didn't actually have a good explanation for it? It sure as hell doesn't to me.

If you'll read what you quoted, I didn't claim to know anything. And yeah, townies can predict (meaning make an educated guess, not know) that. Your pre-game "slip" was on the radar before the game started, it was clearly going to be a topic of inquiry. At the same time, it wasn't enough to build a strong case around on it's own, not to mention it would be moronic for the town to quick lynch someone on day 1.

Who said anything about a quick lynch? My accusation was that it is NOT reasonable for a townie to predict that my wagon wouldn't lead to new evidence against me.

[Dekes]

mockingjaye has requested replacement.

Bill McQuill has received his first prod.

[Barry Allen]

@ sub - if I didn't believe you were scum I would truly feel sorry for you right now. Imploding the way you are is not the way to get votes off of you. I really don't think I need to say anything about your OMGUS - you've already said it yourself.

[Hiraki]

Barry, that's an interesting dance you're doing there. Must be some sort of native tribal thing.

Currently I support wagons on Bill, mockingjaye and subgenius (hail Slack!). If any of them were to dangle in the gentle spring breezes I'd be satisfied. Conditional to those flips I would support wagons on Rob and you.

All that said, I only have one vote. And I have it placed on the one I currently find most likely to flip red.

I'm really honestly not sure why I have to explain all this.

This basically.

subgenius - I am struck by several things in your posts. You kept after Hiraki for a number of posts for his mistaken FoS on me, continuing to press on why there wasn't an explanation posted with the FoS at the time. Then, you backpedal in some of your posts, while stating that Hiraki looks scummy for backpedaling. You accuse Hiraki of "rewriting history", and though I may be missing it, I don't see that point.

1) Don't call someone scummy because of accusations and pushing.

2) I'll agree with the backpedaling.

3) The rewriting history is more in the point of I changed what I said (Ex: I wanted to FoS Bill, rather than you[Bill])

It's a bit annoying that yo're voting Sub on that basis. I mean FMPOV, Bill looks much worse.

that is essentially what hiraki has done, I don't care if he votes you but he asks for reasons why people are voting you, when his reason for his vote is essentially nonsense.

Not really. But nice defense. Noted when Bill flips scum.

if someone calls me scum, I don't defend that person's wagon

Yeah that's not really smart. That's just getting butt-hurt really.

it seems like you are trying to stall the inevitable and hope something happens to get the attention off of you, the deadline means nothing in the grand scheme of things if people are convinced you are scum.

What's your point? You said this randomly and actually it's gotten me annoyed.

but you supported his wagon and now it is at L-2 you seem to be avoiding it, idk just doesn't make sense to me.

He's not really avoiding it though.

Yeah so RobCapone or Bill. Take your pick please.

Just to say, if anyone was wondering, here was my initial reasoning for wanting Rob as dead as Bill.

Subs, play more, read wiki less

those scum tells became invalid the moment they were posted

unvote, vote subs

I have been trying to tell if subs was just newbish cause he sounds alot like how I played when I first joined, but seeing he has been here since 2008(regardless if he "hasn't played in a while") he should not be playing like this if he is town, so I have to assume he probably isn't and just trying to play it off that isn't working.

But um.

You could press that name(subgenius). And you'd be able to go to his profile.

And search his posts.

And find that he's played barely any games.

Also, "he should not be playing like this if he is town"

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are town people supposed to act like all town people? You're making no sense, assuming with no information, and you're voting him because scumtells from the Wiki apparently are invalid the moment that he posted in here. Does something not make sense here, or is it everything?

[Hiraki]

EBWOP: Meh. Fix Papa Zito's quote to Bill and Rob, rather than Bill, Sub, and Mocking.

Actually, not really sure why I put that in there, looking at it now.

[subgenius]

Jesus H. Christ, go ahead and keep ignoring what I'm actually saying. I'm almost absolutely certain that either you or Rob is scum. Probably not both, but I'd be

SHOCKED

if one of you doesn't turn up as mafia. Clever use of my free straw man, btw.

Does it look like Barry or Bill would have just forgotten my pregame post if I didn't actually have a good explanation for it? It sure as hell doesn't to me.

Barry ignored one of your pre-game posts, so there wasn't anything there to begin with, and Bill pretty much did ignore your case with no explanation. You simply deflected the case by claiming you're incredibly ballsy. So, no, I don't think either of these attacks were very serious.

Who said anything about a quick lynch? My accusation was that it is NOT reasonable for a townie to predict that my wagon wouldn't lead to new evidence against me.

If that's what you're saying, then you're right. You'll see in my response that I allowed for the possibility that you might have imploded. I did not, and could not predict that.

[RobCapone]

that is essentially what hiraki has done, I don't care if he votes you but he asks for reasons why people are voting you, when his reason for his vote is essentially nonsense.

Not really. But nice defense. Noted when Bill flips scum.

not really isn't really a valid response, your reason is nonsense and if you are going to ask people to make cases, you shoudl be willing to do the same. so make a case on the person you are voting for

if someone calls me scum, I don't defend that person's wagon

Yeah that's not really smart. That's just getting butt-hurt really.

no it isn't getting but-hurt, I may not attack the person who is accusing me of being scum, but I am damn sure am not going to defend them. your defending subs makes no sense and you haven't provided reasons for why he is not scum. and again you have not provided anything valid for your vote. My reasoning may not make sense to you, but I don't have to convince you of my reason for my vote.

it seems like you are trying to stall the inevitable and hope something happens to get the attention off of you, the deadline means nothing in the grand scheme of things if people are convinced you are scum.

What's your point? You said this randomly and actually it's gotten me annoyed.

I didn't say this randomly, he brought it up like it actually means something. the fact that we have a long deadline means nothing and doesn't mean that if we suspect someone of scum, we should wait out the entire 2 weeks before lynching him

but you supported his wagon and now it is at L-2 you seem to be avoiding it, idk just doesn't make sense to me.

He's not really avoiding it though.

Yeah so RobCapone or Bill. Take your pick please.

um yes he said he supports a Sub wagon and now there is one, he wants to move focus off of it. that is scummy play, added that Zito hasn't really provided anything of value and hasn't scum hunted is yet another reason I pointed it out.

Just to say, if anyone was wondering, here was my initial reasoning for wanting Rob as dead as Bill.

Subs, play more, read wiki less

those scum tells became invalid the moment they were posted

unvote, vote subs

I have been trying to tell if subs was just newbish cause he sounds alot like how I played when I first joined, but seeing he has been here since 2008(regardless if he "hasn't played in a while") he should not be playing like this if he is town, so I have to assume he probably isn't and just trying to play it off that isn't working.

But um.

You could press that name(subgenius). And you'd be able to go to his profile.

And search his posts.

And find that he's played barely any games.

Also, "he should not be playing like this if he is town"

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are town people supposed to act like all town people? You're making no sense, assuming with no information, and you're voting him because scumtells from the Wiki apparently are invalid the moment that he posted in here. Does something not make sense here, or is it everything?

I don't know how many game he has played on the old mafiascum site and you really can't check. plus I didn't think I had to check his game log when I saw he was here since 2008.

but back to the other question, town can act however he wants but to me he seems like he is trying to earn town points when he makes comments like this

For copying Bill's FoS, even after Barry explained his mistake and put his vote where his mouth is. Trying to appear townie by mirroring others is a definite scum tell.

Casting the vote to bring someone to L-1 less than a page into D1 would not be a good move for blending in. FoS is subtler and less likely to attract attention.

Before I get called out on this misreading,

I'll go ahead and admit that Hiraki's reasoning makes more sense than I originally thought,

Cool, then let the record show that I wish to have my earlier apology stricken from the record. I am now back to my original level of finger pointing at Hiraki.

As far as I know, the only people that know whether or not this is true are Erratus and scum...

I knew people were going to pile on you for your pre-game post, and I think you deserved the scrutiny, but I felt no need to hop aboard your band wagon when it almost certainly wasn't going to amount to anything and others were going to say what needed to be said anyway.

I standby my comment. Acting like you know someone is town is scummy, especially since a hypothetical cop wouldn't have had an investigation yet. If my vote wasn't already on Hiraki, I'd be perfectly willing to vote for Papa Zito.

this one in particular because he has said that in his mind declaring someone as town is scummy and a scumtell, so if he truly thought that, that is far worse than anything hiraki had done and should have been reason enough to take his vote off of him.

Grey is town, you going to lynch me for saying that?

If I thought there was any probability that you're serious, I might.

again if he thought Ash was serious he said he might lynch him, by his reaction, he thinks Zito was serious, yet no vote for him. If he is willing to lynch somebody who seriously makes that comment, than the fact that he doesn't was supicious to me, especially because his case on Hiraki isn't very convincing. At least vote Zito and get him to defend himself for that comment, instead he lets Zito fly right by making a "scum tell"

This seems like putting on blinders to me. If Zito wants to privately assume Erratus is town, that's his business, but I think issuing a proclamation that so-and-so is town is unhelpful at best and scummy at worst. Unhelpful because it's artificially putting an end to a conversation that might lead somewhere, scummy because it conveys a certainty that a townie simply can't have.

so again he thinks zito has done something scummy , but doesn't pursue it

lso, they have both since directed posts at folks who voted elsewhere that would seem to be urging them to put the final votes on me.

and this point was a 100% complete misrep of me, I can't say about the other person, but my post was more trying to get an explanation from the person, not trying to get them to vote for subs.

[RobCapone]

and to add one more, sub's vote for Barry makes no sense at all, especially when he makes this comment shortly after

Jesus H. Christ, go ahead and keep ignoring what I'm actually saying. I'm almost absolutely certain that either you or Rob is scum. Probably not both, but I'd be SHOCKED if one of you doesn't turn up as mafia. Clever use of my free straw man, btw.

if he is convinced that one of us are scum, why isn't he voting for one of us, why vote for Barry for a reason that I don't even understand

[subgenius]

@Rob
That quote is directed at Barry. Hiraki posted while I was writing it, so I can see how it's confusing. I should have specified who it was aimed at. I'm certain that either you or Barry is scum.

and this point was a 100% complete misrep of me,

I can't imagine how that must bother you.

I can't say about the other person, but my post was more trying to get an explanation from the person, not trying to get them to vote for subs.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm content with pointing out my opinion on it and letting others decide.

Also, those quotes where I'm "trying to earn town points" are so WIFOM it's not even funny.

[RobCapone]

they are my opinion, if it's WIFOM, oh well, WIFOM isn't even a scumtell anyway.

in my mind I use what is scummy to me, and those posts were scummy to me.

[Hiraki]

not really isn't really a valid response, your reason is nonsense and if you are going to ask people to make cases, you shoudl be willing to do the same. so make a case on the person you are voting for

Well good thing I didn't ask you to make a case, and I did make a case. This is just a notation. I don't need to make a case for anyone really.

no it isn't getting but-hurt, I may not attack the person who is accusing me of being scum, but I am damn sure am not going to defend them. your defending subs makes no sense and you haven't provided reasons for why he is not scum. and again you have not provided anything valid for your vote. My reasoning may not make sense to you, but I don't have to convince you of my reason for my vote.

Person X calls you scum. Person Z says he has an innocent on you and a guilty on confirmed town, Person X. I do believe that you should defend Person X.

This is valid because you're ignoring and being anti-town. That's good enough for me to vote.

I didn't say this randomly, he brought it up like it actually means something. the fact that we have a long deadline means nothing and doesn't mean that if we suspect someone of scum, we should wait out the entire 2 weeks before lynching him

Great. You can think. Obviously we shouldn't quicklynch anyone. It's kind of already known that we're not.

um yes he said he supports a Sub wagon and now there is one, he wants to move focus off of it. that is scummy play, added that Zito hasn't really provided anything of value and hasn't scum hunted is yet another reason I pointed it out.

Right. Because applying pressure is now scummy. Noted. If you honestly thought he wanted to lynch that quickly, then I sigh.

I don't know how many game he has played on the old mafiascum site and you really can't check. plus I didn't think I had to check his game log when I saw he was here since 2008.

but back to the other question, town can act however he wants but to me he seems like he is trying to earn town points when he makes comments like this

1. Okay. But what's your point? Are you honestly going to lynch him on the basis of that?

2. The use of the word town makes me quite wary of a slip, me spies.

[subgenius]

@Rob
Two separate points that neither you or Barry seem capable of recognizing or addressing separately:
1)Obviously, I don't like either of your cases, and I'll continue rebutting them as well as I can. I didn't say your case is WIFOM and therefor you're scummy. It's WIFOM, and therefor it's a bad case, but that doesn't make you scum. I think all of the cases against me suck, but you'll notice that of all the people on my wagon, I'm only calling you and Barry scummy.

2)You and Barry are both scummy in my view due to timing and subtle nudging to other players to finish me off. You can both say you're just asking simple questions, but I think that they were meant to get some fence sitters to put the final votes on me. This, combined with your late arrival on my wagon makes me extremely suspicious of both of you.

On top of this there are little things like dismissing the value of taking extra time to lynch, not answering Hiraki's question about your reasons for voting me until asked a second time, and then answering by saying you don't have to convince anyone of your reasons but proceeding to attempt to do so anyway (post 236). At least one of you two is scum.

[Snake Eyes]

There is no rule that says we can't end the day early, the deadline is there to make surecwe don't go too long but if a consensus is reached earlier, there is nothing wrong with that.

For one, we don't have a consensus, and for another, we have 2 players who have not contributed anything at all. Ending the day would be very premature right now. Town generally benefits from more discussion anyway, so I don't get why you're suggesting a lynch already when day 1 has been going on for less than a week.

Seems like that would be beneficial from my point of view whether I was town or scum. Scum out of a sense of self preservation, town out of hopes that more time=more info=more chances to find scum, not to mention avoiding a ML.

I don't like that you're even entertaining the notion that you're scum. Why would you do that if you were town?

I don't know how many game he has played on the old mafiascum site and you really can't check. plus I didn't think I had to check his game log when I saw he was here since 2008.

but back to the other question, town can act however he wants but to me he seems like he is trying to earn town points when he makes comments like this

1. Okay. But what's your point? Are you honestly going to lynch him on the basis of that?

2. The use of the word town makes me quite wary of a slip, me spies.

Agreed on point 2. Similarly:

they are my opinion, if it's WIFOM, oh well, WIFOM isn't even a scumtell anyway.

in my mind I use what is scummy to me, and those posts were scummy to me.

This makes me think Rob is being especially wary of committing scumtells, so he's scum as well.

[Hiraki]

I'm glad we've all become buddies so quickly!

[RobCapone]

@ sub - I don't think I did what you say I did, in attempt to get fence sitters to vote you, however if I genuinely think you are scummy, what is wrong with that? If I think you are scummy I am going to try and get others to vote for you. Fence sitting to me is a scummy behavior anyway so if someone like hayker came out of the blue and voted you, i'd be suspicious of him.

I still find it odd that you are pushing for Hiraki's lynch and he is defending your wagon and I was questioning that because it is suspicious to me

[RobCapone]

Hiraki used the word town when asking me a question, so I used the word town in my response back to him, not a slip

[RobCapone]

There is no rule that says we can't end the day early, the deadline is there to make surecwe don't go too long but if a consensus is reached earlier, there is nothing wrong with that.

For one, we don't have a consensus, and for another, we have 2 players who have not contributed anything at all. Ending the day would be very premature right now. Town generally benefits from more discussion anyway, so I don't get why you're suggesting a lynch already when day 1 has been going on for less than a week.

yeah I agree there are more people who need to participate, but I am not going to not vote to lynch the person I think is scum, because we are waiting to get those people to talk. and just because a person is at L-2 it doesn't mean that he will be lynched quickly.

using Zito's theory about errant, he declared errant town because his wagon grew quickly, I am not a big fan of using speed of a wagon to mean anything, but assume that train of thought is valid, than Sub's wagon was slower to develop and people are trying hard to start sub-wagons or direct attention from him, wouldn't that be a sign that this is most likely a scum wagon?

[RobCapone]

not really isn't really a valid response, your reason is nonsense and if you are going to ask people to make cases, you shoudl be willing to do the same. so make a case on the person you are voting for

Well good thing I didn't ask you to make a case, and I did make a case. This is just a notation. I don't need to make a case for anyone really.

technically you did ask for a case, you were vague at who you directed it to but you did ask for a case

RobCapone can die too.

Can I get a good case on subgenius? His play doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

also this point -

I don't need to make a case for anyone really.

actually you should be able to make a case on the person you are voting for if you are town, especially if somebody asks you to. refusal to make a case IS a scumtell

no it isn't getting but-hurt, I may not attack the person who is accusing me of being scum, but I am damn sure am not going to defend them. your defending subs makes no sense and you haven't provided reasons for why he is not scum. and again you have not provided anything valid for your vote. My reasoning may not make sense to you, but I don't have to convince you of my reason for my vote.

Person X calls you scum. Person Z says he has an innocent on you and a guilty on confirmed town, Person X. I do believe that you should defend Person X.

This is valid because you're ignoring and being anti-town. That's good enough for me to vote.

but your example isn't valid because we don't have an investigative role claiming anyone is innocent and nobody is cleared town.

if player A is being accused of being scum by player B, and player B has a wagon on him, I do not expect player A to defend player B. that is what you are doing and it makes no sense.

I didn't say this randomly, he brought it up like it actually means something. the fact that we have a long deadline means nothing and doesn't mean that if we suspect someone of scum, we should wait out the entire 2 weeks before lynching him

Great. You can think. Obviously we shouldn't quicklynch anyone. It's kind of already known that we're not.

i am not advocating a quick lynch, and this wagon isn't anything close to a quick lynch. Errant's wagon was a perfect example of a quick lynch.

um yes he said he supports a Sub wagon and now there is one, he wants to move focus off of it. that is scummy play, added that Zito hasn't really provided anything of value and hasn't scum hunted is yet another reason I pointed it out.

Right. Because applying pressure is now scummy. Noted. If you honestly thought he wanted to lynch that quickly, then I sigh.

ooh you sighed

I don't know how many game he has played on the old mafiascum site and you really can't check. plus I didn't think I had to check his game log when I saw he was here since 2008.

but back to the other question, town can act however he wants but to me he seems like he is trying to earn town points when he makes comments like this

1. Okay. But what's your point? Are you honestly going to lynch him on the basis of that?

2. The use of the word town makes me quite wary of a slip, me spies.

[/quote]

1. no I am not, I posted a whole entire post of things about him I found scummy
2. as I said in a post already, your question to me used the word town so I used the word town in my response

[subgenius]

I don't think I did what you say I did, in attempt to get fence sitters to vote you, however if I genuinely think you are scummy, what is wrong with that? If I think you are scummy I am going to try and get others to vote for you.

they are my opinion, if it's WIFOM, oh well, WIFOM isn't even a scumtell anyway.

This, to me, is an acknowledgement that your case is WIFOM. If that's the best you've got, I don't think you can possibly be sure enough of my status to start suggesting a lynch so quickly. Also, I find the form of your rebuttal strange:

"I didn't do it, but even if I did do it, it's not scummy."

If you did do it, it was scummy.

I don't like that you're even entertaining the notion that you're scum. Why would you do that if you were town?

Just to point out the WIFOMness of it. There are reasons for both town and scum to want to delay a lynch in my situation, so it's useless to draw conclusions from the fact that I would like to delay my lynch. If I wrote that only a townie would want to delay the lynch, that would be blatantly untrue, and I wouldn't expect anyone to take it seriously.

[RobCapone]

@sub - wht don't you get,

you accused me of trying to get fence sitters to vote you but I have not done that. how many times do I have to explain the same thing over and over again.

my question was trying to get hiraki to explain the reason why he is defending the person that is calling him scum, it doesn't make sense.