Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[subgenius]

I don't have to convince you of my reason for my vote.

refusal to make a case IS a scumtell

Hm.

you accused me of trying to get fence sitters to vote you but I have not done that. how many times do I have to explain the same thing over and over again.

my question was trying to get hiraki to explain the reason why he is defending the person that is calling him scum, it doesn't make sense.

I get your explanation. I just don't believe you.

[RobCapone]

were you trying to imply those were contradictions? cause I posted my reasons for voting you aka my case

Hiraki's only reason for voting bill can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2799388

and that statement from Bill isn't enough of a resaon in my mind to vote him and to stay on him the entire game so far.

also since that vote he really hasn't done anything else to try and convince others that Bill is scum.

[subgenius]

So you're admitting that you already knew he posted his reasons, maybe ones that aren't up to your standards, but we've already established that according to you, no player is under any obligation to make their reasons convincing to other players (or does that only apply to you?), yet you're accusing him of committing a scum tell by not making a case. Neat.

[Hayker]

this makes no sense whatsoever

Oh, it makes perfect sense. But we'll get to that later.

Please get to this now before you have time to make a case.

[RobCapone]

So you're admitting that you already knew he posted his reasons, maybe ones that aren't up to your standards, but we've already established that according to you, no player is under any obligation to make their reasons convincing to other players (or does that only apply to you?), yet you're accusing him of committing a scum tell by not making a case. Neat.

can you pay attention please?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2804051

RobCapone can die too.

Can I get a good case on subgenius? His play doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

hey there mr. lurker,

why don't you make a case for the person you are voting for because the reason you gave doesn't qualify as a good reason for me.

he is voting him based on 1 comment he said, which wasn't a scum slip or even suspicious comment, hence not a valid enough reason, that was also way back on page 6 and he hasn't done anything else to add to his reasons or do anything else to try and get that person lynched.

which is why I asked him to make a case, since he asked somebody to make a case on you, he should surely be able to do the same thing if asked, yet he refused.

[RobCapone]

this makes no sense whatsoever

Oh, it makes perfect sense. But we'll get to that later.

Please get to this now before you have time to make a case.

welcome to the game, this is your first post in 3 days and that is all you comment on?

god I hate lurkers

[Snake Eyes]

There is no rule that says we can't end the day early, the deadline is there to make surecwe don't go too long but if a consensus is reached earlier, there is nothing wrong with that.

For one, we don't have a consensus, and for another, we have 2 players who have not contributed anything at all. Ending the day would be very premature right now. Town generally benefits from more discussion anyway, so I don't get why you're suggesting a lynch already when day 1 has been going on for less than a week.

yeah I agree there are more people who need to participate, but I am not going to not vote to lynch the person I think is scum, because we are waiting to get those people to talk. and just because a person is at L-2 it doesn't mean that he will be lynched quickly.

You weren't just voting him though. You were actively campaigning him and even suggesting that a lynch might not be a bad idea. Getting sub to L-1 would not have been the end of the world, but given that there's already been one accidental L-1 vote in the game, probably not a great idea either.

using Zito's theory about errant, he declared errant town because his wagon grew quickly, I am not a big fan of using speed of a wagon to mean anything, but assume that train of thought is valid, than Sub's wagon was slower to develop and people are trying hard to start sub-wagons or direct attention from him, wouldn't that be a sign that this is most likely a scum wagon?

"I don't believe x is correct, but assuming it is, wouldn't that imply y?" sounds like a really intellectually dishonest argument. But let's entertain it anyway.

First off, I don't believe anyone can consider EA anywhere close to confirmed town. I took PZ's statement to mean that he's probably town, and also that rather than pursuing some pre-game statement that wasn't even a scumtell, we should probably look at the people on the wagon that reached L-1 really fast. Second, your mangled logic can be used to support the wagon on Bill or anyone else as well for that matter - every other wagon could be misdirected from the true scum.

I'm annoyed that Bill seems to have lurked his way out of suspicion. I still have a strong scum read on him, and him lurking isn't helping.

I don't like that you're even entertaining the notion that you're scum. Why would you do that if you were town?

Just to point out the WIFOMness of it. There are reasons for both town and scum to want to delay a lynch in my situation, so it's useless to draw conclusions from the fact that I would like to delay my lynch. If I wrote that only a townie would want to delay the lynch, that would be blatantly untrue, and I wouldn't expect anyone to take it seriously.

That's not the point though. Your response indicates an anti-town mindset. A townie would think and say that they shouldn't be lynched because they're town, whereas scum would be more inclined to say that it's a null-tell when they defend themselves. What's more, the way you said it makes it even more suspicious. You're saying that from your point of view, it would be beneficial whether you were town or scum. Which implies that you actually considered it from both alignments, something you should only need to do if you were actually scum.

[Hayker]

this makes no sense whatsoever

Oh, it makes perfect sense. But we'll get to that later.

Please get to this now before you have time to make a case.

welcome to the game, this is your first post in 3 days and that is all you comment on?

god I hate lurkers

I'm making a bigger post as I speak. I wanted to get the smaller post out of the way because I forget things easily.

[RobCapone]

if by actively campaigning for it, you mean asking hiraki to explain his actions of defending subs or calling out Zito for advocating a subs wagon but refusing to be on it and now distracting from it with a vote on someone who isn't lurking, it is someone who clearly isn't playing and has now asked for a replacement, than yeah I am guilty of campaigning for his lynch

however I don't consider that campaigning a lynch but more pointing out behavior that doesn't make sense.

if zito wants to go after a lurker, hayker is a much better candidate because he has actually made plenty of posts before the game actually started, but once it started he has made only 2 posts

1. questions hiraki's FOS
2. asks zito to explain his comment

I look at behavior and what makes sense to me, and right now those 2 don't make sense to me

p. edit - good to hear hayker

[Dekes]

Welcome your new player bvoigt who replaces mockingjaye effective immediately.

[Snake Eyes]

if by actively campaigning for it, you mean asking hiraki to explain his actions of defending subs or calling out Zito for advocating a subs wagon but refusing to be on it and now distracting from it with a vote on someone who isn't lurking, it is someone who clearly isn't playing and has now asked for a replacement, than yeah I am guilty of campaigning for his lynch

Good grief. Periods. Use them.

Anyway, the whole campaigning thing was more from of an impression I got from when you said that lynching early wouldn't always be a bad idea. When you say something like that, the implication is that you're okay with a lynch right now or soonish, whether you mean to imply that or not. I went back and looked and fair enough, I suppose you weren't actively campaigning.

[bvoigt]

Hey, everyone!

[Hayker]

Things of note:

Wikkiden’s massive AtE. This seems highly uncalled for and brought on by very little. He is a new player, but this does deserve noting. This was brought on by the post that Rob made.
RobCapone wrote:I do see that you are new here, yes L-1 was one more to lynch and depending who you talk to sheeping is scummy.

question, why jump in to a big boy game and not start in a newbie game to learn the ropes?

Question @ Zito: Why were you so quick to clear Erratus like that? It was a bandwagon that was pretty much guaranteed to happen with what was said pre-game.
More Zito stuff: Your top 3 suspects are Mockingjaye/bvoigt, subgenius and Bill. Bill at least has a small reason, but jaye/bvoigt for not complying with your miracle, and sub for….what other peole said? You don’t even mention him until your last post. You also have sub-suspects Rob and Barry. Rob for somehow being linked to Jaye. You have explained none of your reasoning behind anything except for Bill and frankly…I’d like to hear some of this reasoning.

/Vote:Papa Zito

[subgenius]

Hi, bvoight.

That's not the point though. Your response indicates an anti-town mindset. A townie would think and say that they shouldn't be lynched because they're town, whereas scum would be more inclined to say that it's a null-tell when they defend themselves. What's more, the way you said it makes it even more suspicious. You're saying that from your point of view, it would be beneficial whether you were town or scum. Which implies that you actually considered it from both alignments, something you should only need to do if you were actually scum.

I didn't have to think about the scum perspective, Rob provided the hypothetical scum perspective, I responded with the town perspective, which is what I had in mind when I mentioned the deadline. I guess I'm not up-to-date on the townie buzz words.

can you pay attention please?

No, YOU pay attention.

refusal to make a case IS a scumtell

viewtopic.php?p=2803844#p2803844 Hiraki asks for you to clarify your case on me.
viewtopic.php?p=2804051#p2804051 You respond to his post without clarifying.
Whatever scumtell hiraki committed, you've done as well.

and again you have not provided anything valid for your vote. My reasoning may not make sense to you, but I don't have to convince you of my reason for my vote.

You're hypocritically demanding satisfactory explanations from Hiraki after not providing them yourself. Eventually, when you did clarify, you pasted a long string of quotes together and proclaimed that all of this added up to a case. When I said it was WIFOM, you said:

they are my opinion, if it's WIFOM, oh well

Meaning, you don't feel a requirement to make your case persuasive to the rest of us. With this in mind, why should anyone go out of their way to make their cases persuasive to you?

Hiraki gave his reasons. You've quoted them. You know they're there. Yet, you keep demanding that he meet some sort of "Standard of Case Validity" when you've said you feel no obligation to do so yourself. If he strung together a list of quotes and declared that they demonstrated attempts to score town points, then ignored comments that the case still didn't make sense, you'd be happy?

I agree that it would be nice if Hiraki would give an update on Bill, but everything you accuse him of, you've done as well.

[Ashblade]

Was really busy yesterday, and will be busy later until late tonight. But here's a small update.

As for my not voting again yet - I will take care of that later today. Unlike you, my votes are not "fickle day 1" as you said to wikki. I was on the road working yesterday and drove 6 hours to get home - when I get past some home office work today I'll re-read and cast that vote. I don't consider that a bad thing in a round with a PC set for March - and no, I won't wait for March, just until later today.

I can't believe you are (or were) reacting to my small little statement. What I find amusing is you later prove it right.

1. Reasonable, but not quite right. I recognized that there was justification for an EA bandwagon and that it would serve the purpose of getting the ball rolling, but also felt like it wouldn't ultimately lead anywhere or benefit from my presence.
2. I was never on EA, I just think that those who jumped on him were acting rationally and predictably. I've consistently said that EA's pre-game admission was a bit fishy, but I didn't take it very seriously. Hiraki has been my main pursuit, Zito was an aside that was blown out of proportion since people have decided that it was out of line. I feel like I've been pretty focused on Hiraki. No, I'm not going to call anyone town. I might have my guesses, but that's the as far as it goes. I think it's silly to think any differently.
3. Honestly, I haven't played in awhile, and what you're saying about Zito type comments might be true. Although it is scumtell #5 according to https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ding_Mafia. I'll readily admit that I haven't played or read as many games as you probably have so it's entirely possible I'm way off base on this one.

1. Even the "I agree with the wagon" would have done better than just outright saying nothing and then voting somewhere else.
2. Having town reads prevents you from getting into a trap as town of finding everyone else scum. There's this one ongoing game where that situation is proven quite well.
3. Lol wiki.

3. Top 2 candidates are Bill and subgenius,

not just because they're scummy but also because lots of people have taken a stance on them.

Some candidates for slot 3 are wikkiden and our two lurkers.

More people taking stances = that person is more likely scum? I fail to see how that has any bearing on someone's alignment at all.

Barry, that's an interesting dance you're doing there. Must be some sort of native tribal thing.

Currently I support wagons on Bill, mockingjaye and subgenius (hail Slack!). If any of them were to dangle in the gentle spring breezes I'd be satisfied. Conditional to those flips I would support wagons on Rob and you.

All that said, I only have one vote. And I have it placed on the one I currently find most likely to flip red.

I'm really honestly not sure why I have to explain all this.

Told ya he'd be all over the place.

There's a bunch of more stuff that happened but I'll save that for later tonight when I finish with what I am doing. Looking through it, Sub looks like he's trying to distance from Barry after the case load against him. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I also have to admit I don't like Bill's disappearance when we leave him alone either. Barry, Sub, and Bill would give us the most information and most mafia. Anyway, more when I'm back.

[RobCapone]

And I'm not voting him, I just want him to do what he has asked others to do

I explained the reason for my vote on you, posting examples of things you said that seem scummy to me

I'm just trying to get hiraki to do the same, he refused which is the scum tell, he says he doesn't have to make a case which is 100% false.

[Bill McQuill]

Been running around like a headless chicken for several days now, and today will be no exception. I should have a chance to post substantively this evening (I'm PST, so that's like, late evening for most of you). Apologies.

[Erratus Apathos]

@wikkiden, explain how in the world the bolded statements here aren't contradictory:

Oh yes. My vote sucks.

Along with the six other people voting for him.

I'm sorry. I know I should have started in a newbie game, and I know I look extremely scummy right now. I apologize that me feeling like I could just jump right into a mini game could ruin this game for all of you. Honestly, I don't have much I could possibly say in defense of myself right now.

I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes

, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be. I also did not realize that I was opening up an opportunity for mafia to throw open the floodgates and blitz a mislynch. But practice makes perfect. And you gotta learn from your mistakes. And I've learned all right. .-. But that's truly all I can say. I'm not going to sit here and beg you not to lynch me. I know I look scummy as all get out. I know what I'd think if I saw anyone else do that. But if I'm getting lynched, I wanna go out on a good note, and I truly do apologize for plunging on in here without a clue as to what I was doing. >.<

[RobCapone]

bill, were your ears ringing? that was awfully convenient by the way

[subgenius]

1. Even the "I agree with the wagon" would have done better than just outright saying nothing and then voting somewhere else.
2. Having town reads prevents you from getting into a trap as town of finding everyone else scum. There's this one ongoing game where that situation is proven quite well.
3. Lol wiki.

1. *shrug* Maybe. It's clear that what I did didn't work out very well.
2. I'm ready to admit that I was probably way off base on the whole Papa Zito scum tell thing. I brought it up, and clearly nobody else agrees even a little bit. I honestly did base the comment on the wiki, and now I feel like a huge idiot about it.
3.

[Hiraki]

Question @ Zito: Why were you so quick to clear Erratus like that? It was a bandwagon that was pretty much guaranteed to happen with what was said pre-game.

Bullshit and you know it. Erratus wagon was opportunistic. Bill was the one who liked opportunity.

Rob is just being stupid at the moment. Bill was scummy, and he knows it.

And for the record, there is no possible way that I'm lurking. It's D1, 11 Pages. I've had no prod checks.

Here's a better question.

Rob. Why aren't you voting me?

[RobCapone]

Question @ Zito: Why were you so quick to clear Erratus like that? It was a bandwagon that was pretty much guaranteed to happen with what was said pre-game.

Bullshit and you know it. Erratus wagon was opportunistic. Bill was the one who liked opportunity.

Rob is just being stupid at the moment. Bill was scummy, and he knows it.

And for the record, there is no possible way that I'm lurking. It's D1, 11 Pages. I've had no prod checks.

Here's a better question.

Rob. Why aren't you voting me?

1. lurking doesn't mean you get prodded btw, that is being inactive, lurking is posting just enough to avoid prods or to stay off the radar

2. I am voting for the person I think is the most likely to be scum, I haven't seen any reason to change my vote right now although I like that vote by Hayker on Zito, he is somoeone who could stand to have a little pressure on him.

if I change my vote to you all it would be is a pressure vote but you have already given me the information I wanted so a pressure vote isn't necessary

your vote on bill isn't generating any pressure on him cause he has basically fell into the backround
your vote isn't convincing enough because people are taking their votes off of him instead of people putting votes on him (there were 3, now there is 2)
you have said asked for somebody to make a case yet when you are asked to make a case you refuse and said you don't need to make a case

[GreyICE]

@wikkiden, explain how in the world the bolded statements here aren't contradictory:

Oh yes. My vote sucks.

Along with the six other people voting for him.

I'm sorry. I know I should have started in a newbie game, and I know I look extremely scummy right now. I apologize that me feeling like I could just jump right into a mini game could ruin this game for all of you. Honestly, I don't have much I could possibly say in defense of myself right now.

I know no one will believe me, but I truly didn't count the votes

, nor did it occur to me how serious my voting would be. I also did not realize that I was opening up an opportunity for mafia to throw open the floodgates and blitz a mislynch. But practice makes perfect. And you gotta learn from your mistakes. And I've learned all right. .-. But that's truly all I can say. I'm not going to sit here and beg you not to lynch me. I know I look scummy as all get out. I know what I'd think if I saw anyone else do that. But if I'm getting lynched, I wanna go out on a good note, and I truly do apologize for plunging on in here without a clue as to what I was doing. >.<

Oh. Oh boy. Nice catch. Damn it, subs needs serious rope today.

[Hiraki]

I take back my FoS though. I didn't mean Barry. I meant Bill.

He needs to actually die.

Your admission that you didn't vote to start Day 1 was silly at best, given that the game consensus was that it was

likelier that scum players would want to delay the start.

I'm thinking there's a decent enough chance that you're simply ballsy, and thought you'd be able to deflect the resulting attention into pressure on somebody else.

Which doesn't bode well for you.

Bold: Nice job on Meta Telling

Italics: Decent Chance and voting. Ehehehemeee. No, this doesn't make any sense.

Wikkiden can die too, just because his vote sucks.

Whoops.

lurking is posting just enough to avoid prods or to stay off the radar

I doubt that I qualify for either.

2. I am voting for the person I think is the most likely to be scum, I haven't seen any reason to change my vote right now although I like that vote by Hayker on Zito, he is somoeone who could stand to have a little pressure on him.

So you don't believe I am scum.

Well.

[RobCapone]

I think you both are scum