Mini 1126 - Game over - Was Averagely Suspicious saved?

[Hiraki]

Bviogot.

Did you forget to comment on the elephant in the room?

You have nothing on Bgg.

That annoys me.

Barry: I want names of people who you believe are lurking.

[RobCapone]

Who is bgg?

[Hiraki]

Wow. I totally mixed up 2 games for one moment. Dunno why though.

[Barry Allen]

Bviogot.

Did you forget to comment on the elephant in the room?

You have nothing on Bgg.

That annoys me.

Barry: I want names of people who you believe are lurking.

Well, let's start with Bgg - no wait, that's the player from

another game

you called out bvoigt for not FoSing...

Hiraki, you aren't a full-on lurker to me, but you are playing poorly and not paying attention to this round, and this post proves it...

As for those who were lurking in my way of thinking...

Bill started active, then lurked for quite some time, allowing the heat to die down on himself while the rest of us posted on other cases. When called out on lurking by more than one player, we suddenly have an active Bill voting to take subs to L-1 (whether he is bussing or simply appealing to the town, I don't know, but this is the one thing that I've seen since voting sub that makes me less sure of that vote).

Hayker has made maybe 4 posts (certainly not much more) all game. The posts are mostly very short, too...asking Hiraki for an explanation of the FoS on me, asking Zito for explanation of his suspicion of Rob, one post just to say there will be a bigger post soon...and one post with a little more info and some additional comments. That's not total inactive, but to me that's lurking - just posting enough to appear active and avoid prodding, but not really saying much at all.

Mockingjay was obviously just inactive...and it's a bit early to call bvoight anything in terms of activity (though I will agree that I would have liked hearing how bvoight feels about Bill, since that's one of the two bigger cases to me). However, I am surprised that we only have 2 posts from bvoight so far - hopefully that will change soon.

There are others who seem to fade out but I'm not ready to call lurkers. Ashblade was very active, faded out, and has come back. Zito seems to fade in and out, but not to the point of actual lurkiness.

And Hiraki, one more time in case you are still somewhat paranoid about being called a lurker - I don't think you are a lurker. I do think you need to be sure which game you're posting in, however. That doesn't make you a lurker, and doesn't make you town or scum - just a bit confused.

[Erratus Apathos]

I also feel that subgenius is a townie getting attacked for poor play rather than scummy play.

Why do you think he's town?

I actually like Hayker for scum more than subgenius at this point. This is his one and only meaningful post so far:

Things of note:

Wikkiden’s massive AtE. This seems highly uncalled for and brought on by very little. He is a new player, but this does deserve noting. This was brought on by the post that Rob made.
RobCapone wrote:I do see that you are new here, yes L-1 was one more to lynch and depending who you talk to sheeping is scummy.

question, why jump in to a big boy game and not start in a newbie game to learn the ropes?

Question @ Zito: Why were you so quick to clear Erratus like that? It was a bandwagon that was pretty much guaranteed to happen with what was said pre-game.
More Zito stuff: Your top 3 suspects are Mockingjaye/bvoigt, subgenius and Bill. Bill at least has a small reason, but jaye/bvoigt for not complying with your miracle, and sub for….what other peole said? You don’t even mention him until your last post. You also have sub-suspects Rob and Barry. Rob for somehow being linked to Jaye. You have explained none of your reasoning behind anything except for Bill and frankly…I’d like to hear some of this reasoning.

/Vote:Papa Zito

and even then, he's fence sitting. He doesn't even call Wikkiden or Zito scummy, suspicious, or anything. He also doesn't acknowledge subgenius at all, which at this point is scummy.

Add the lurking on top of that and I feel

extremely

good about this vote.

UNVOTE: subgenius
VOTE: Hayker

[bvoigt]

I also feel that subgenius is a townie getting attacked for poor play rather than scummy play.

Why do you think he's town?

Town reads are kind of difficult to explain, but this is one example of what I mean:

3. Honestly, I haven't played in awhile, and what you're saying about Zito type comments might be true. Although it is scumtell #5 according to https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ding_Mafia. I'll readily admit that I haven't played or read as many games as you probably have so it's entirely possible I'm way off base on this one.

It's not good play because those tells have been obsolete for years. However, it shows a town motivation because he's taking the time to read an article on how to find the scum.

[GreyICE]

It's not good play because those tells have been obsolete for years. However, it shows a town motivation because he's taking the time to read an article on how to find the scum.

True, I really can't think of a scum motivation for reading an article on scumtells and memorizing it.

Wait...

[Barry Allen]

It's not good play because those tells have been obsolete for years. However, it shows a town motivation because he's taking the time to read an article on how to find the scum.

True, I really can't think of a scum motivation for reading an article on scumtells and memorizing it.

Wait...

LOL

That being said, it could explain a lot about sub...JEEP's list also says that the 3rd and 4th votes in a wagon are maf (so subs, I was the 5th vote, that makes me clear by your list, right? Guess not in your estimation ). Seriously, I think subs is actually playing by this list, which explains why he was OK about the early votes on him but thought the later votes were scummy by their very existence. That list is very obsolete - in fact ANY list of "scumtells" is obsolete as soon as people read said list and adjust their play.

This has been an interesting exchange by folks who haven't been on thread a lot (bvoigt due to being new, GreyICE due to...I dunno). bvoigt points out sub's post with that link (wish I'd followed that link earlier, as it was a real eye opener). And, GreyICE does have a point that we can't infer intent from subs using the list. Bottom line is this was a most interesting moment for me to see possibly the basis of sub's issues with Zito (rule 5) and Rob and me (rule 3 and 4, though once again I will point out that JEEP's list says absolutely nothing about the 5th vote XD).

wow...

[Hiraki]

And Hiraki, one more time in case you are still somewhat paranoid about being called a lurker - I don't think you are a lurker. I do think you need to be sure which game you're posting in, however. That doesn't make you a lurker, and doesn't make you town or scum - just a bit confused.

The problem is, is that I've only commented on people saying that I've lurked once.

I don't know who's lurking, I wanted your opinion. That's it. Just wanted to throw that out there, I'll see what your views are fully later.

[subgenius]

(so subs, I was the 5th vote, that makes me clear by your list, right? Guess not in your estimation ).

Don't tell anybody, but 5th vote is the new 4th vote, and 4th vote is the new 3rd vote. Shhhh... It's a secret.

[Papa Zito]

mockingjaye has requested replacement.

Scared her off. I need to reevaluate my way with the wimminz.

using Zito's theory about errant, he declared errant town because his wagon grew quickly, I am not a big fan of using speed of a wagon to mean anything, but assume that train of thought is valid, than Sub's wagon was slower to develop and people are trying hard to start sub-wagons or direct attention from him, wouldn't that be a sign that this is most likely a scum wagon?

It wasn't

just

that but.

Also reeeeeeally slow wagons mean scum a lot of time sure cuz you don't have the support of certain personages.

(edit: Snake Eyes addresses this later - I like this guy)

refusal to make a case IS a scumtell

Nah.

Please get to this now before you have time to make a case.

Say what?

I'm annoyed that Bill seems to have lurked his way out of suspicion. I still have a strong scum read on him, and him lurking isn't helping.

+1 but I want to see what the replacement does.

Question @ Zito: Why were you so quick to clear Erratus like that? It was a bandwagon that was pretty much guaranteed to happen with what was said pre-game.

Please. That wagon was built on stupid and scum and should never have gotten to L-1. (oh hai Hayker you said this too)

Also I'll explain things when I feel they need explanation.

EA's #367 is a good catch; "I truly didn't count the votes" is clearly a lie after saying, "Oh yes. My vote sucks. Along with the six other people voting for him."

I agree.

Really interested in your opinion of Barry plz.

[subgenius]

Please. That wagon was built on stupid and scum and should never have gotten to L-1.

Who was being stupid, and was there anyone besides Bill that was being scum?

[subgenius]

ebwop: I'm not asking you to call people stupid, but I would like to know who else you thought was scum.

[GreyICE]

Please. That wagon was built on awesome

stupid

and win

scum

and should net us some excellent reads

never have gotten to L-1

.

Like namely, caution being a very good scumtell, which is how Subgenius and wikkiden hit our attention right off the bat.

Also on a wagon getting to L-2 before the game had finished its first official page.

[subgenius]

@GreyICE
I would expect you to include Bill in this list. What's your current read on him?

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE
I would expect you to include Bill in this list. What's your current read on him?

Uh, he's fairly town to obvtown?

I get more of a null out of a lot of people than Bill. Why am I including him, again?

[Bill McQuill]

+1 but I want to see what the replacement does.

Right here, champ. Posted pretty recently, take a gander!

When called out on lurking by more than one player, we suddenly have an active Bill voting to take subs to L-1 (whether he is bussing or simply appealing to the town)...

Man, it sure is easy to make people sound scummy when you phrase things negatively!

[Barry Allen]

There are actually two things that make me worry about my vote for sub.

1. Finding out that sub is actually playing with a "list-o-scumtells" that can actually explain his behavior, even though those scumtells are outdated. GreyICE could be right that using the list isn't a guarantee of affiliation, but it does at least explain a lot about how sub is playing.

2. Bill's vote - and here's why. Other players already noted Bill fading from the thread for quite a period of time as the heat ramped up on sub. When called out on his absence, Bill comes back with a wall-o-text, and immediately votes the only other player with more votes than himself, taking said player (sub) to L-1. This could be a townie trying to appeal to the town with action after being called for inactivity - or it could be maf trying to move us to a quicker lynch in order to keep the heat off himself. @ Bill - if that sounds "negative", sorry but I don't know how to put this more positively...no, wait, how about this...I am "positive" that this looks a bit scummy.

Sub - your own posts haven't helped you. You've mostly lashed out at me and a couple of other folks, with some strained logic and implied motivations - but again if you are using JEEP's list for scumtells it is possible that you are inexperienced enough that this is just how you post (you've been on the site for a long time but IIRC haven't played much lately - someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this). But, with EA taking his vote off you we are back to L-2, meaning we do have time to talk more. Bill's vote isn't enough to take my own vote off you, but it is enough that I want to hear more before we do a quickhammer here.

[bvoigt]

True, I really can't think of a scum motivation for reading an article on scumtells and memorizing it.

Wait...

Whatever, I don't know how to explain it but subgenius is town.

Really interested in your opinion of Barry plz.

He looks like scum. ISO #13 bugs me because right after a votecount, he supports the second-largest wagon and adds to the largest wagon. I also don't like his latest post. It reads to me like, "I'm not going to take my vote off of the bandwagon, but I'm going to set up the next lynch once Sub flips town."

[bvoigt]

In case it wasn't obvious, the sentence in quotation marks is my translation, not something Barry actually said.

[RobCapone]

bill, were your ears ringing? that was awfully convenient by the way

I don't like this kind of limp-wristed reaffirmation of suspicion, which you and Ash and Snake have all posted some form of.

Bill it has been my experience that lurking scum show up shortly after people start talking about them and that is exactly what seemed to happen with you, which is why I pointed it out. It isn't anything to lynch you for just yet but I am pointing it out for future reference

[subgenius]

@GreyICE
I would expect you to include Bill in this list. What's your current read on him?

Uh, he's fairly town to obvtown?

I get more of a null out of a lot of people than Bill. Why am I including him, again?

It would be nice if you'd explain your town read on him.

You might remember that you voted for him based on his mealy-mouthed accusation of Wikkiden and lame response to Hiraki, both direct results of EA's wagon. Bill has yet to respond to any of that, so why the town read on him now?

Sub - your own posts haven't helped you. You've mostly lashed out at me and a couple of other folks, with some strained logic and implied motivations - but again if you are using JEEP's list for scumtells it is possible that you are inexperienced enough that this is just how you post (you've been on the site for a long time but IIRC haven't played much lately - someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this). But, with EA taking his vote off you we are back to L-2, meaning we do have time to talk more. Bill's vote isn't enough to take my own vote off you, but it is enough that I want to hear more before we do a quickhammer here.

If you're asking for a rebuttal of your original case, here it is, it's the last you'll get:
1)

You kept after Hiraki for a number of posts for his mistaken FoS on me, continuing to press on why there wasn't an explanation posted with the FoS at the time.

Maybe I did go a little too far on Hiraki. So? I really don't ever want to use inexperience as an excuse, but I'll admit that maybe I went further than necessary without realizing it.
2)

Then, you backpedal in some of your posts, while stating that Hiraki looks scummy for backpedaling. You accuse Hiraki of "rewriting history", and though I may be missing it, I don't see that point.

Backpedal has been explained ad nauseam. I thought I misread a post and made a correction. Hiraki was revising previous posts in response to questioning.

Those were your reasons for voting for me, and those are my responses. If you want to lynch me over those reasons, I have nothing else to say about it.

Now, I'm through talking with you about this. I'd appreciate if you'd stop characterizing my accusations against you and Rob as lashing out, because I really do think at least on of you is scum.

[Snake Eyes]

3. Top 2 candidates are Bill and subgenius,

not just because they're scummy but also because lots of people have taken a stance on them.

Some candidates for slot 3 are wikkiden and our two lurkers.

More people taking stances = that person is more likely scum? I fail to see how that has any bearing on someone's alignment at all.

This was in response to GreyICE's hypothetical power role. And it doesn't have any bearing on said person's alignment, but it will have a lot of meaning to everyone else's alignment, if everyone has stated an opinion on said person.

Snake Eyes is another scumread. He has "a strong scum read" on Bill for "going after all the really obvious targets." But Bill was the biggest wagon when SE voted for him, so wouldn't Bill himself be the most obvious target?

"Nice job" using quotation marks from different sentences in different posts to prove a point you want to make instead of one that actually exists! Here's the full sentence:

I'm more concerned with you going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum.

Most of my scumread comes indeed from the last part that you left out and his subsequent lurking. It looked like he was making just a cursory attempt at scumhunting by pointing out the mistakes and bad plays people made and then pretended they were all some major scumtells, when they really looked more like newbie mistakes.

As for me going for the biggest wagon, is that supposed to be scummy? I voted him the first chance I got after the game started. Moreover, am I still supposed to be going after the most obvious target? Seems to me that would be subgenius, and I would much prefer a Bill lynch over sub lynch. This is a bad case.

@GreyICE
I would expect you to include Bill in this list. What's your current read on him?

Uh, he's fairly town to obvtown?

I get more of a null out of a lot of people than Bill. Why am I including him, again?

Not too long ago, you considered one of his posts the scummiest post in the game. Weird change of attitude.


There's also a pretty big problem with EA's case on wikkiden in #267. I was going to wait until wikkiden responded but as it looks like he's about to be replaced, here it is: Although wikkiden says in #131 that there are 6 other people voting for him, there are only 5. He either miscounted the votes and tried to quicklynch - which is possible I suppose - or more likely, that was a reactionary post to Hiraki and he only had a general idea that several people had voted for EA. The point being that even though his actions are questionable, I think it's a foregone conclusion to consider that a blatant lie.

Speaking of blatant lies, and now we get to why I actually bothered to explain all of that at such length(bolding mine):

3. wikkiden. His most recent post was better, but since then it's been radio silence, which is what I'd expect from a player who's trying to distance himself from a massive emotional apology earlier in the game.

There's also the contradiction that EA pointed out.

In your haste to cast suspicion on wikkiden, you seem to have forgotten that you were the first person to actually notice that there were 5 people, not 6 in post #135. You of all people should have known that the contradiction EA pointed out was not a contradiction at all.

Bill needs more votes.

Hayker can also die. He's sneaking under the radar big time and at this point seems to be deliberately avoiding saying anything of substance.

[bvoigt]

Snake Eyes is another scumread. He has "a strong scum read" on Bill for "going after all the really obvious targets." But Bill was the biggest wagon when SE voted for him, so wouldn't Bill himself be the most obvious target?

"Nice job" using quotation marks from different sentences in different posts to prove a point you want to make instead of one that actually exists! Here's the full sentence:

I'm more concerned with you going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum.

IMO, the obvious targets usually are the worst players, so those 2 points mean pretty much the same thing to me.

Most of my scumread comes indeed from the last part that you left out and his subsequent lurking. It looked like he was making just a cursory attempt at scumhunting by pointing out the mistakes and bad plays people made and then pretended they were all some major scumtells, when they really looked more like newbie mistakes.

He wasn't lurking at the time, so that didn't really have any effect on your original vote.

As for me going for the biggest wagon, is that supposed to be scummy? I voted him the first chance I got after the game started. Moreover, am I still supposed to be going after the most obvious target? Seems to me that would be subgenius, and I would much prefer a Bill lynch over sub lynch. This is a bad case.

It doesn't matter if he's not the biggest wagon anymore. It was scummy for you to vote the most obvious target for "going after all the really obvious targets and generally attacking bad play rather than finding scum."

[Dekes]

Bump for Votecount.