Execution Mafia GAMEOVER!

[Setael]

Nightkill? I think we've already decided not to have one and rely on executions. Exe had a good argument for this.

Can you link to Exe's argument for this? I don't understand how you'd get the scum to not use their night votes and just get a free night kill. I'm sure this has been discussed at length and I just haven't read it yet, but after reading the setup it seems like we should definitely decide together on night votes since we very likely outnumber scum votes. Here's my reasoning:

All the scum will pick one of their number to vote for tonight, but that one cannot vote for themselves. So if there are 3 mafia, the most one of the mafia members can get is 4 votes (since they each get 2 and only 2 of the 3 would be able to vote for that mafia member.) If there are 4 mafia, the most the voted for mafia can get is 6 votes. I find it unlikely there would be more than 4 with a 13 player setup, so there's a very good chance the most the mafia can give to themselves tonight is 6 votes.

Whoever makes the daykill may hit a townie which leaves us with 12 players. This gives us 8 town votes and we would outnumber the mafia. If we do not have a consensus on who we want killed, the mafia make their 6 votes and get a night kill.

Can someone also brief me on where we're at in the game? Are we just waiting until March 9 for Amrun to decide who to execute? And deciding who to nightkill in the meantime?

[Umbrage]

Welcome Setael!!!

Final Fires' case on me revolves on the fact that I find SO town. The main reason I find SO town is because I see no reason to find him scummy. I find the reactions of the other players to be far more scummy. I find FF's attack on me opportunistic, and it sends a clear message: get on the SO wagon or we will lynch you. To respond to it in detail:

But just a few posts before he has pointless speculation and slander:

That's called scumhunting. I've backed up all those possible scum teams with reasoning and logic as to why they are likely scum teams. If you disagree, then provide a proper counter-argument instead of brushing it all under the carpet.

Although ironically, he has suggested that Tragedy is scum because of her activity level.

Wrong. Try again. I did not say I found Tragedy town. I said I did not want her killed until she could provide more content.

First chainsaw defense of SO.

I made a prediction that scum would jump on the wagon. One of the players who is considered to be scummy by most of us here jumped on the wagon. I pointed this out. How the hell is that a chainsaw defence?

Like Exe pointed out too, if he had a scummy read on someone, how would a bandwagon on them draw out scum? Plus, most people weren't on board until after SO started posting, making his earlier argument of SO drawing scum invalid.

First off, you make it sound like SO just magically appeared. He was posting before now, enough for me to get a feel for the kind of player he is. I knew he was an easy target. Scum or town, he is an easy target. And going after easy targets is anti-town.

So he thought SO was scum. But was also trying to stop an SO lynch. But then he also thought I was scum for proposing SO be executed. Anyone else see a problem with this?

Try again. My read on SO, when I was pushed to give one, was based on a gut feeling from a few posts of his. But even if I was absolutely sure he was scum, I would not want him killed until he made some content. Understand? It is anti-town to go after easy targets and lurking players. Scum want those easy targets to be lynched, so they will flock to the wagon. I stand by that logic, logic which shows you are possible scum. Now you are either not reading my posts, or deliberately misinterpreting them.

The only read he has on SO is his flawed arguments. What could possibly lead him to the assumption that SO's town if that's all that he's had to read? His gut. But just a few posts up she said she had a scum gut read on him. Whoops! That's why he refused to answer mine and Am's quesiton; he knew he would get caught in a lie. If he had any good or pro-town reason for doing so, he would've pointed them out instead of essentially saying that he couldn't answer the question.

Allow me to answer this with a question: why are so concerned over my gut read? That's all it was. Gut. Best guess. I had next to nothing to go on. If you honestly think that he hasn't posted enough to evaluate that read, this is obviously your first mafia game. It's not that I find SO totally town. It's that the reactions to his bandwagon are WAY worse than anything he's done. At this point, it's not who's scummy, you're all scummy. It's who's the most scummy.

I clearly hit a nerve, this sudden attack on me stinks of paranoia. I'm leaning towards an FF/Amrun/Exe scum team even more now. The one thing that makes me hesitate is vezok and SV's SCUMMY reactions to the wagons on SO and myself.

[Exe]

Nightkill? I think we've already decided not to have one and rely on executions. Exe had a good argument for this.

Can you link to Exe's argument for this? I don't understand how you'd get the scum to not use their night votes and just get a free night kill. I'm sure this has been discussed at length and I just haven't read it yet, but after reading the setup it seems like we should definitely decide together on night votes since we very likely outnumber scum votes. Here's my reasoning:

All the scum will pick one of their number to vote for tonight, but that one cannot vote for themselves. So if there are 3 mafia, the most one of the mafia members can get is 4 votes (since they each get 2 and only 2 of the 3 would be able to vote for that mafia member.) If there are 4 mafia, the most the voted for mafia can get is 6 votes. I find it unlikely there would be more than 4 with a 13 player setup, so there's a very good chance the most the mafia can give to themselves tonight is 6 votes.

Whoever makes the daykill may hit a townie which leaves us with 12 players. This gives us 8 town votes and we would outnumber the mafia. If we do not have a consensus on who we want killed, the mafia make their 6 votes and get a night kill.

Can someone also brief me on where we're at in the game? Are we just waiting until March 9 for Amrun to decide who to execute? And deciding who to nightkill in the meantime?

Please just read my first post. You've (like many of the other players in this game) misunderstood what's actually being suggested .

We ARE going to agree on a night EXECUTIONER. That has

always

been the plan.

What I suggested is that whoever GETS that kill should NOT use it and should let the night go without a kill.

Understand?

[Exe]

I've backed up all those possible scum teams with reasoning and logic as to why they are likely scum teams.

No, you haven't. You backed all of them up with possible speculation, which could easily be made for ANY combination of players in the game. Dare me to do it, and I will come up with two other scum-team possibilities that you didn't, and my "reasoning and logic" will be JUST as good as yours...in other words, it'l be crap.

Speculation is what you did. That's a fact. Gtfo.

And going after easy targets is anti-town.

LOLOLOLOLOL

This is basically the definition of YOUR play. Vezo makes a blatantly obvious "role-fish" so you attack him for that. Vezo defends me, so we MUST be scum. These are the EASIEST FUCKING TARGETS in the entire game.

But you're right, going after easy targets is anti-town, making you very very anti-town.

He was posting before now, enough for me to get a feel for the kind of player he is.

And it apparently doesn't bother you that the person he was when he was posting before is absolutely nothing like the person who posted then?
But let's go with your logic.

Here are the entirety of SO's posts BEFORE he came back:

vote exe
obv scum

unvote
vote strungover

I still think not exicuting anyone today would be better... also is a mass claim a bad idea here? It helps tell us who not to kill. I know it's not an open set up so... idk.

unvote
vote exe
this guy seems legit.

If we don't kill any one today it gives our PRs a better idea of who's who.

2 RVS votes showing he has no fucking clue what's going on, a REALLY anti-town suggestion, a defense of ME, and then another shitty suggestion.
But you're right, you knew he was pretty much pro-town...or wait no you had a gut scum read on him...or wait,

YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE

.

I clearly hit a nerve, this sudden attack on me stinks of paranoia. I'm leaning towards an FF/Amrun/Exe scum team even more now.

LOL.
CAN YOU SAY OMGUS?
Umbrage either is scum or has no clue how to play mafia because this shit is seriously retarded.

[Setael]

Please just read my first post. You've (like many of the other players in this game) misunderstood what's actually being suggested .

We ARE going to agree on a night EXECUTIONER. That has

always

been the plan.

What I suggested is that whoever GETS that kill should NOT use it and should let the night go without a kill.

Understand?

What I don't understand is why you think it's a good idea to not use the nightkill. It's like having a vig and choosing not to use it. And if someone still dies how can you be sure scum didn't somehow win the vote? Will you automatically suspect the person the town agreed to give the nightkill to?

What's the difference between choosing to not use the night kill and no lynching during the day?

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Just because you can't or won't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. And your eloquent use of the word 'retarded' has finally earned you the honour of having your post reported. I won't bother responding to your post in any more detail because it's little more than ad hominem attacks, posturing, and other garbage. Tell me when you're ready to cut the crap and play this game.

[Exe]

@ Exe: Just because you can't or won't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. And your eloquent use of the word 'retarded' has finally earned you the honour of having your post reported. I won't bother responding to your post in any more detail because it's little more than ad hominem attacks, posturing, and other garbage. Tell me when you're ready to cut the crap and play this game.

LOL.

You reported my post for using the word "retarded"? LOLWHAT?

I didn't even call anyone retarded.

Your attempt to avoid addressing the case against you by continuing to be obstinate is noted. If you don't die today, I guarantee you will die tomorrow.

[Exe]

What I don't understand is why you think it's a good idea to not use the nightkill. It's like having a vig and choosing not to use it. And if someone still dies how can you be sure scum didn't somehow win the vote? Will you automatically suspect the person the town agreed to give the nightkill to?

But that's not what you didn't understand...
You specifically asked why we weren't agreeing on a person to elect as the night killer. Your original post made no question regarding whether or not we should actually use the night kill, so this post really seems like an attempt at backpedaling. Did you actually mean "What I still don't understand" ?

Also, you're right it's like choosing not to vig...which is not an anti-town thing to do when your vig doesn't have a good target. Look at Gorrad's Fictional Character's mafia, in which I was the vig. I failed to hit scum until the very end of the game, and probably would've been better off not shooting.

[Umbrage]

If you don't die today, I guarantee you will die tomorrow.

Wait, what does this mean exactly?

[Shattered Viewpoint]

While I would prefer that we kill SO, I wouldn't at all be sad if umbrage were to die, either.

Sateal, I don't like your style already. Note to self: look at cooldog toMorrow.

[Final Fires]

Welcome Sateal!

I can see pros and cons to both sides of the argument for the nightkill. I think we shouldn't worry about it too much until we decide who we want to execute, then we can have an indepth discussion on what should be done about it.

Umbrage, you still have dodged the question why you think SO is town. This is all that you have to judge him by: RVS, suggesting a mass claim, and arguments full of misrep and logical fallacies. If you're entire argument is that you don't want to go after someone who's not producing enough content, why are you still against an SO execution? He has begun to produce content, and none of it's pro-town.

That's called scumhunting. I've backed up all those possible scum teams with reasoning and logic as to why they are likely scum teams. If you disagree, then provide a proper counter-argument instead of brushing it all under the carpet.

You just provided three weak mafia teams, with no real reasoning. If you don't have a case on someone that's independent of other people, it's not a good case. That's not scum hunting, it's just pointless speculation and mudslinging. Give me any three players and I can reason how they're on the same scum team.

Although ironically, he has suggested that Tragedy is scum because of her activity level.

Wrong. Try again. I did not say I found Tragedy town. I said I did not want her killed until she could provide more content.

I never said you said Tragedy was town. I said that you said Tragedy was scum; you're only reasoning was because "it's likely the scum have different activity levels". That was the only thing you put against Tragedy in your case against her. Why would Tragedy be scum for having a different activity level, but not SO?

I made a prediction that scum would jump on the wagon. One of the players who is considered to be scummy by most of us here jumped on the wagon. I pointed this out. How the hell is that a chainsaw defence?

Definition of a chainsaw defense: "A player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum." Now compare this to how you defended SO by attacking Vez:

Actually, Vezok saying SO is a good kill proves my point, a wagon on an absent player will draw out the scum. Vezok just became more scummy.

Plus by saying that, you put player's under the illusion that if they say anything about SO, they'll look scum. Scaring players out of discussing SO is not pro-town.

First off, you make it sound like SO just magically appeared. He was posting before now, enough for me to get a feel for the kind of player he is. I knew he was an easy target. Scum or town, he is an easy target. And going after easy targets is anti-town.

SO is going after vezok. Wouldn't that make him anti-town, because vez is an easy target at this point?

Try again. My read on SO, when I was pushed to give one, was based on a gut feeling from a few posts of his. But

even if I was absolutely sure he was scum, I would not want him killed until he made some content.

Understand? It is anti-town to go after easy targets and lurking players. Scum want those easy targets to be lynched, so they will flock to the wagon. I stand by that logic, logic which shows you are possible scum. Now you are either not reading my posts, or deliberately misinterpreting them.

I don't like the bolded part of this post at all. But under that reasoning, why did you accuse of Vezok and Tragedy of being scum? Aren't they just as easy targets, who at this point have made just as little content? In fact, SO has actually posted more than either of them have.

Allow me to answer this with a question: why are so concerned over my gut read? That's all it was. Gut. Best guess. I had next to nothing to go on. If you honestly think that he hasn't posted enough to evaluate that read, this is obviously your first mafia game. It's not that I find SO totally town. It's that the reactions to his bandwagon are WAY worse than anything he's done. At this point, it's not who's scummy, you're all scummy. It's who's the most scummy.

This contradicts itself. You say you had next to nothing to go on, but then in the next sentence you say that he has posted enough to evaluate a read.

[Setael]

Did you actually mean "What I still don't understand" ?

Yep.

Sateal, I don't like your style already. Note to self: look at cooldog toMorrow.

That's funny, since so far you're my #1 scum pick. (I'm only halfway through the thread though so this could change.)

[Exe]

@Setael: I figured as much. With that in mind, you aren't backpedaling.

So in response to

that

question, see my second part about Vigs not shooting.

Not to mention, a LOT generally happens around the time of a lynch, and I don't think we will be able to have enough information discussed by the night phase to choose a solid night execution. I would prefer we have time to consider every kill as a group rather than trusting the night kill to 1 person's judgement (even with the bit of discussion we could do during the day phase).

[Tragedy]

I can really see Umbrage's gut says SO is scum, then he finds him town.

I can only think of a sole reason; He hasn't even been accused by SO.

I bet Umbrage goes nuts on every single person who votes against him.

Really? Prove it. Until you do, you're just wasting everyone's time with pointless speculation and slander. Oh wait, you've been doing that all game.

Pointless raging from you is definitely going out of the rage level. SO has only mentioned

Umbrage

once in his post, where he tells him something I don't really care of.

You

"If you're going to go after people for activity, go after Tragedy. She's done nothing."
"The three players with the worst activity and content rates are charter, Tragedy, and StrungOver. Of these three, charter still strikes me as the scummiest. I see no reason to kill the others I mentioned until they start posting more often."
"And StrungOver is on V/LA. I do NOT like killing players that are absent."
"I have a gut read of SO as scum and CD as town. But that's just gut. I'm not willing to decide a kill on it. Going for one of them is a cop-out. A lottery. Maybe scum, maybe lurky town. Who knows?"
"@ Final Fires and somewhat to Amrun: I can't help but notice you're picking on players who are absent or haven't made much content. Going after weak players like that strikes me as scummy."
"charter's beginning to look a little better, but I still think he's the best kill for today."
"Vezok saying SO is a good kill proves my point, a wagon on an absent player will draw out the scum."
"Charter actually gets townie points. He ignored the SO wagon, and pretty much admitted to tunneling, something I don't see scum doing"
"I read SO as town who thinks he's always right."
"SO doesn't concern me right now"
"I did not say I found Tragedy town. I said I did not want her killed until she could provide more content."
"I knew he was an easy target. Scum or town, he is an easy target. And going after easy targets is anti-town."
"My read on SO, when I was pushed to give one, was based on a gut feeling from a few posts of his. But even if I was absolutely sure he was scum, I would not want him killed until he made some content. Understand? It is anti-town to go after easy targets and lurking players. Scum want those easy targets to be lynched, so they will flock to the wagon. I stand by that logic, logic which shows you are possible scum. Now you are either not reading my posts, or deliberately misinterpreting them."

My Interpretation

So you find charter very scummy, but when he starts to improve his logic, you thought it was a good idea to kill him today. Yet, you mention he gets townie points for 'ignoring' the SO wagon.
Although your gut screams out that SO is scum, you're mentioning that he doesn't concern you much as you think he's town. There's your damn contradiction towards the situation itself, as you're just going to ignore the situation of SO. SO is no longer absent for the moment, yet you're not really observing the situation of SO and trying to get Exe killed. [Who knew?]
I haven't posted much content towards the damn whole day of the shit, and yet, you dislike trying to get inactive people killed. Guess what? You're trying to point everybody

at me

so I could actually post good content while somehow feeling threatened. That's basically trying to make everyone more scummier than you think they could be, by making me the easier target, that's not something a good town would do.

You're completely contradicting yourself in a bad way. I suggest you to give

yourself

a big slap in the face and stop trying to change the scum directions to everyone else without being stupid. You're just digging your grave, silly rabbit. Tricks are for silly rabbits.

[Twistedspoon]

Sateal, I don't like your style already. Note to self: look at cooldog toMorrow.

This is surprisingly similar to when you told Amrun to be more active 5 minutes after she posted. You're way to quick to judge, Sateal hasn't even had a chance to read the whole topic yet
It seems like you're desperate to be the first to suspect a new player :/
not a particularly desirable quality, premature accusations

You're just digging your grave, silly rabbit. Tricks are for silly rabbits.

no comment...

I think we shouldn't worry about it too much until we decide who we want to execute,

When are we going to cast our votes for executee? Are we going to let players defend themselves forever? Scum never give up defending themselves until they're in the clean again. We need to move past the tennis match style of accuse-defend and get some proper conclusions going. 23 pages is enough to get a read on all players (except for Setael for obvious reasons).

[Setael]

Not finished reading but I had a thought I want to bring up re: the nightkill.

Not only do we have a chance of hitting scum tonight, we also get a wealth of information from the flip, so I think it's a huge mistake to no kill tonight. The reasons I've seen so far for not killing at night are based on us not having enough info to feel confident we're hitting scum. However, if the town decides together both who will make the nightkill and who they will target, then it's superior to a no kill. If we can come to a consensus well before deadline on who today's kill should be, that would give us a few days to talk about a nightkill. We could then frame it as "if today's kill flips scum, X should be night killed" and "if today's kill flips town, Y should be night killed". There is definitely enough information and connections in these 23 pages that we would then be able to target someone tonight with a good chance of hitting scum. It essentially gives us 2 days with no night.

If we give ourselves one full week (until the 28th) to decide on today's lynch, then we'd still have a full week until deadline to pick our 2 options for the nightkill (one person if the daykill flips town and the other person if the daykill flips scum) as well as a person for us all to actually vote for who would make that night kill.

So we'd all need to state before the 28th who we think today's lynch should be and then at that point, it's done and we have until the 9th to make a statement on the rest.

[Amrun]

Finally, someone is totally on board with my plan. That's what I've been trying to say all along, Satael. Exe probably won't buy it.

Umbrage, refusing to refute good cases against you is just ... not town.

[Umbrage]

While I would prefer that we kill SO, I wouldn't at all be sad if umbrage were to die, either.

Sateal, I don't like your style already. Note to self: look at cooldog toMorrow.

LOL! I bet you would!

Pointless raging from you is definitely going out of the rage level.

That wasn't rage. That me telling you that if you're going to accuse me of something, you should have the balls to back it up. Nice dodge by the way.

So you find charter very scummy, but when he starts to improve his logic, you thought it was a good idea to kill him today. Yet, you mention he gets townie points for 'ignoring' the SO wagon.

I'm not stupid. I'm not saying that everything charter does is a scumtell. That's because I'm trying to find scum. I don't give a shit if the scum aren't who I'd like them to be. I have to find them anyway. So when my primary suspect starts looking more town, I will admit it. This is called being pro-town. I shouldn't have to be spelling this shit out for you.

Although your gut screams out that SO is scum, you're mentioning that he doesn't concern you much as you think he's town. There's your damn contradiction towards the situation itself, as you're just going to ignore the situation of SO. SO is no longer absent for the moment, yet you're not really observing the situation of SO and trying to get Exe killed. [Who knew?]

Try again. My scum read on SO was a weak gut feeling I gave pages ago. Holding me to that now is stupid. And I'd really like to know how you interpret my latest posts as 'trying to get Exe killed'.

I haven't posted much content towards the damn whole day of the shit, and yet, you dislike trying to get inactive people killed. Guess what? You're trying to point everybody at me so I could actually post good content while somehow feeling threatened. That's basically trying to make everyone more scummier than you think they could be, by making me the easier target, that's not something a good town would do.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously, I cannot grasp the point you are trying to make. This makes no sense.

Umbrage, you still have dodged the question why you think SO is town. This is all that you have to judge him by: RVS, suggesting a mass claim, and arguments full of misrep and logical fallacies. If you're entire argument is that you don't want to go after someone who's not producing enough content, why are you still against an SO execution? He has begun to produce content, and none of it's pro-town.

I've already stated why I think SO is town. Maybe I could give a better read on him if I didn't have to defend myself from all this bullshit.

You just provided three weak mafia teams, with no real reasoning. If you don't have a case on someone that's independent of other people, it's not a good case. That's not scum hunting, it's just pointless speculation and mudslinging. Give me any three players and I can reason how they're on the same scum team.

Try again. I've given my reasoning for why I believe those are potential teams. If you disagree, ARGUE MY LOGIC. Don't try this shit about how if it's not on a single person, it's worthless.

I never said you said Tragedy was town. I said that you said Tragedy was scum; you're only reasoning was because "it's likely the scum have different activity levels". That was the only thing you put against Tragedy in your case against her. Why would Tragedy be scum for having a different activity level, but not SO?

I've already said I find Tragedy scummy, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate. But here's something to add: hopping on my wagon.

Definition of a chainsaw defense: "A player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum." Now compare this to how you defended SO by attacking Vez:

Except that that is totally meaningless, since I already stated I found Vezok scummy.

Plus by saying that, you put player's under the illusion that if they say anything about SO, they'll look scum. Scaring players out of discussing SO is not pro-town.

If you think there is no difference between a bandwagon and a good case, and that town cannot tell the difference, hit yourself over the head RIGHT NOW.

SO is going after vezok. Wouldn't that make him anti-town, because vez is an easy target at this point?

This is something that I questioned SO about.

I don't like the bolded part of this post at all. But under that reasoning, why did you accuse of Vezok and Tragedy of being scum? Aren't they just as easy targets, who at this point have made just as little content? In fact, SO has actually posted more than either of them have.

Well, for one thing, Vezok has his guard dog Exe defending him. And my case on Tragedy grew as her content did.

This contradicts itself. You say you had next to nothing to go on, but then in the next sentence you say that he has posted enough to evaluate a read.

Nonono, NOW he's posted enough that my previous read on him is worthless.

Also: I agree that we should use the nightkill. Not doing so is just like no-lynching, and we should apply the same rules that we use for no-lynching.

[Amrun]

Umbrage, how do you explain listing charter in your "minimal activity" list, stating that we should not kill people with little content as it's a crapshoot, and then proceeding to push a charter kill, all in the same post?

[charter]

Guys, why are you egging Umbrage on? I didn't read any of this page because it's pointless. Umbrage is scum. No matter how many words she types, her role pm stays the same. So we don't need to assplode the thread.

[Amrun]

charter, there's also been discussion of nightkills going on. It's not all about Umbrage.

And Tragedy FINALLY made a good post. She has moved a notch down on the scum list... but still, it was only to defend herself. SCUMHUNT, TRAGEDY!!

[Exe]

Regarding the entire Night Kill discussion: Regardless of how much we discuss it now, we are still choosing TWO kills based on purely D1 reads.

Also, using the night kill is NOT the same as our day kill. It is IMPOSSIBLE to discuss as much, even pre-emptively, as we could figure out during the day. It WILL NOT BE AS INFORMED OF A KILL. I guarantee you that.

So if you guys want to make a less-informed kill, then by all means go for the night kill. But that is what you are choosing.

I don't care how you spin it, the night kill will not be able to take into account all of the discussion that happens just before a person dies, which is often the most important discussion.

[Exe]

Also.

It essentially gives us 2 days with no night.

Key-word ESSENTIALLY.
My plan gives us 2 days with no night either...except we also get to discuss what happened in Day 1

[Amrun]

Exe, you were the one attacking me early in the game for saying that 5 pages of content wasn't as good as 20 pages of content.

Plenty of stuff has gone down in the last 20 pages and I don't understand this flip-flop of yours.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, how do you explain listing charter in your "minimal activity" list, stating that we should not kill people with little content as it's a crapshoot, and then proceeding to push a charter kill, all in the same post?

I'm pretty sure I covered this earlier. Lemme check... YES!

It WILL NOT BE AS INFORMED OF A KILL. I guarantee you that.

Actually, if we use the plan of "if X is scum, lynch Y, if X is town, lynch Z", it will be more informed.