Newbie 1055 (Game over)

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, when the next large normal is ready to take signups there will be a thread in the Queue (I think Mafia 127 will be in the title of the next one run.)

[Vittorio Salamdien]

@Zach, I've offered replacement for Cold War Mafia (my cup of tea). Hope I get a place there...

Goodbye all. Don't mind my rants, it's just in character.

[Otolia]

Hello guys, you are probably wondering why I'm posting here. Well in fact, I have been

stalking Haylen

looking for LyLo situation to improve my game. And yours was a pretty interesting one. I PM'ed Haylen almost as soon as I read the last day because I felt she was an obviouscum. And well the future proved me right. So to the point, I'll explain what made me understand that she was a scum only by doing an ISO of the last day. For your record, the last day starts here.

First of all, let's talk about the possibilities for a scum win in a 2v1 LyLo situation : The first possibility is to let someone vote first and drop the hammer as fast as possible as long as your are not the target, the second is to vote first and convince after. The main point is to stay out of the way, because as a scum you are a minority. Thus if there are strong suspicion towards someone alive, lead the charge, if not create suspicion. As a scum you know who you are and who the others are (particularly at the end of the game) thus it's easier to manipulate people.

For a town win to happen in a 2v1 LyLo the conditions are perfect understanding of your play and total paranoia. You know that one of the others two are scum. Now how can you win ? First you know to know the weaknesses of your play. If you know that, you can prepare arguments why you are NOT scum - which is the truth - and in the mean time you can search for proof or scumtell.The second part of the way to winning is the paranoia. Don't trust anyone, you had obvious towntell ? Forget it ! If you are in this situation it means someone lied to you for a long long time. Everything that happened before the beginning of the day cannot be trusted. AT ALL.

Now that we set up the basics of a LyLo, let's move onto Haylen play. She is the first one to post after the begin of the day. Is that scummy ? No, it isn't ! But it's suspicious - remember PARANOIA !

To the last townie out there, don't vote until you are absolutely sure the person you wish to vote for is scum. One false move and the game is lost for us. We should claim, I would be happy to go first if you both are ok with that.

First post and what do I see ? A nice town claiming ! Your brain should be burning right now, in a LyLo you should trust no fucking one. Thus such a claim is either newbie or driven by ulterior motives. She stated something you already know and asked you to be the one to claim first, but she doesn't wait for an answer ?

The following post is actually golden. I called her out only with this one, but i had the advantage of being outside the game.

Will claim now. I might not have internet access for the rest of the day.

How really ? Poor thing ! Don't pity her, although it was true, that has nothing to do with the game. Don't be manipulated by emotions, because they can cost you a game.

I am the doctor

. I have been less active this game because

I wanted to remain scummy enough for the scum to not kill me

but town enough not to get lynched and the way I figured that could work was by being

slightly less active

than I usually would be in a game. (This might not be the right kind of play to exhibit but this is actually the first time I've been doc and only the third time in two years I've been a town power role.)

She claimed here, and justify her scumminess. Only scum have motives to do so, if you prevent being attacked in a LyLo as a Townie you are doing it wrong. You should be able to remain more credible than a scum because YOU are TRUTHFUL. Trust me, lying in a LyLo is hard, but when you have the initiative ... It way more easier.

The main reason I was attacking Vittorio was because I had misread somewhere that he was softclaiming/breadcrumbing doc when in actual fact he was doing that for cop. You don't breadcrumb MY role >=( Anyway, yeah, I thought he was scum setting himself up for a fakeclaim during lylo so I decided to do a breadcrumb of my own (I'm not really into breadcrumbs or softclaims, as I said I've only been town PR twice, it's not something I've hacked yet without giving myself away entirely), so I did something similar to what DavidParker did:

Vittorio is dead, someone of the three alive LIED. Don't forget it, and thus don't read what she is saying, she could well be lying. PA-RA-NO-I-A ! Now onto the breadcrumb :

I

don't think that pie chart really shows anything, because it doesn't take into account the lengths of my posts. I either post loads of small posts and ask or a lesser

a

mount of large posts. I am intrigued as to how many of the other players posts are fluff rather than content. And then I will do

m

ore graphs for them!

D

espite Stefunny commenting on my lack of posts, I find it interesting that she is ignoring her lack of posts too and it would be interesting whether

o

r not she has noticed the severe lack of content that have been in Sxybeasts posts. I think I can remember her mentioning it but I haven't

c

ome to her iso yet....

Whoah ?! What did just happen ? She claimed ! Ok, now let's verify that claim here. First thing to note, she used a 'return to the line' type. Not particularly obvious if you are not looking for it, but she made a mistake because she bolded the "I am" but that wasn't returned to the line, it's just random bolded letters. When you see a experienced player making that kind of mistake, you should be asking yourself why. I didn't find any reasons, but that's not the point. When you are questioning someone's play, you are on the way to victory.

Haylen crumbed Doc without after the cop died and no Doctor died after her (someone could have been Doc instead of her) thus it means either that she is lying or that there is a Roleblocker. She is revealing the setup and nobody moved ? That's a bad idea, she claimed Doc ? Fine, ask the two other persons to explained what they have done considering either one of them could well be Doc or Roleblocker. If someone refuse to talk, lynch him. Remember that a townie has less incentives to lie than a scum. Asking questions is a good way to get reads. Now suppose one of the living was in fact Doc (Haylen couldn't possibly know FOR SURE that there wasn't), this person should know that she can win the game. Explain what you did and construct all the possible scenarios in your head. Convince your partner and enjoy the sweet revenge ! This is why the following part of her claim is so important, she went out of the bush, but she is still undercover and while her story is plausible, the justifications are not the right ones.

My actions:

Night One:
I protected DavidParker because I spotted his Cop breadcrumb.

Night Two:
I protected DavidParker again, but my protection obviously didn't work - I was roleblocked. I guess scum caught on to why I might actually be lurking.

Night Three:
I protected Stefunny this time because I believed her to be the most likely town person at that time and I thought that scum would try and kill her. They did and I was roleblocked again.

Any counterclaims?

The best for the end, is she waiting for counterclaims ? If she is, it means that either she don't know if there is really a Doc in the setup since it could be a 100 setup. If a Doc was there, this Doc would have known the setup since Day 3 and Vittorio's death but no claim appeared. The fact that she is preventing counter-claims by saying that is a proof of her scumminess.

Now everybody, you know how I unrevealed Haylen's mystery in just 2 posts. Next time when you are in a LyLo as a town, do a ISO and take your time to think calmly. I hope you enjoyed the game as much as i enjoyed your LyLo. Farewell and see you in a game

[Zachrulez]

It's so much better if you just don't breadcrumb as a play style so that people can't dissect breadcrumb claims when you are scum, or have scum find your crumb when you actually have a pr.

[DavidParker]

I learnt something to use for future games, I may keep hidden for now.

Right now, simply put, I am disappointed

[Haylen]

Actually Otolia, I really thought the (a) was at the beginning of the line, it was when I typed it out I didn't want pity, I was providing an explanation as to why I might not be around as any player would do.

I delibrately took a lot of risks this game just so I could set everybody up. If you look at my town play in other games it is really sloppy, if you had gone and read my town games you would have seen the one clue that would have got alarm bells ringing. The only difference in my meta is that as town, I can't control my emotions. That's why I asked if you wanted links rather than posting them myself. I've tried and I can't be emotional as scum or detached as town I tunnel very heavily as town and it has caught me scum quite often.

[Otolia]

Actually Otolia, I really thought the (a) was at the beginning of the line, it was when I typed it out I didn't want pity, I was providing an explanation as to why I might not be around as any player would do.

I delibrately took a lot of risks this game just so I could set everybody up. If you look at my town play in other games it is really sloppy, if you had gone and read my town games you would have seen the one clue that would have got alarm bells ringing. The only difference in my meta is that as town, I can't control my emotions. That's why I asked if you wanted links rather than posting them myself. I've tried and I can't be emotional as scum or detached as town I tunnel very heavily as town and it has caught me scum quite often.

I forgot to say one thing also, Haylen is known to win games with SK, hence her title. She was pretty alone for the whole game. Anyhow meta are and are not reliable. You can't trust the too much because it's easy to manipulate in particular when you are town and you have a much more wider liberty of speech. However some small details can be very revealing, but it's useless if you can't think of a reasoning behinf all this and then the mighty WIFOM happen.

Anyhow what matters at the end, is that she won. Mr Bump shouldn't vote so early and sxy should have been more aggressive. I hope to see you in games soon.

[Doros]

Congrats Haylen on a well played game! You had us all fooled! I guess that is why Stefunny got bumped off because she suspected you of maybe teaching us newbies a lesson. Well you sure did. I never realized mafia could be so devious. A lot of questions. So did you really had asthma or not? Was the gapoc slip planned from the start? What are mafia's reasons for the night kills? Also, what made you decide to claim doc when you do not know if anyone else had that role? Thanks.

OMGUS MrBump! You should have trusted your thoughts about the breadcrumb thing. The only person who noticed the breadcrumb and talked about it was Haylen while SxyBeast and you didn't so that was suspicious. As the lone remaining male in the game, the gapoc "him" slipup was first mentioned by Haylen so that was another clue.

As for DavidParker, why was he giving away breadcrumb if he was the cop? Breadcrumbs are okay pigeons, but not for mafia to find. I find it odd that it seems like SxyBeast rarely or never voted for anyone one in the game?! Sure you mentioned you are cautious and that is okay, but when you have a lylo situation at the end you have to vote or the town loses! MrBump will have no choice but to vote for you because the other choice is a certain lost. I thought you could have defended yourself better at the end.

[Haylen]

So did you really had asthma or not?

The only thing I lied about in the game was being Doc. Everything else I said was true.

Was the gapoc slip planned from the start?

Nope!

What are mafia's reasons for the night kills?

Night One: I wanted to kill a red herring, plus somebody who DP was likely to investigate just to waste an investigation.

Night Two: I killed DP at that moment in order to set Sxybeast up. Females tend to have very good guts in this game thus I thought she might bring up having a gut on power roles and I was correct. I also know that guts develop throughout the game and it's unlikely she'd have had it on day one.

Night Three: Stefunny was the most protown, as the doc, I would have protected her.

Also, what made you decide to claim doc when you do not know if anyone else had that role?

Hehe. It's funny you're still believing in that. There's 4 possible setups in the game. Both me and Gapoc were goons showing that there was either a cop or a doc in the setup not both. But to claim doc, I would have to put the roleblocker in there somewhere or it wouldn't make sense if anybody looked at the mods first few pages. So by the time I'd spotted DP's breadcrumb, I already knew I could roleclaim Doc in the future.

[DavidParker]

Night One: I wanted to kill a red herring, plus somebody who DP was likely to investigate just to waste an investigation.

I'd never investigate the person most likely to be lynched the following day. With 1 remaining scum I decided to investigate someone else (was going to investigate you), and then if they flipped innocent, well I could still lynch the super scummy player. I had no need to confirm them as scum, or to confirm them as town and waste an investigation, because I didn't want to claim cop just to save a VT.

[gapoc459]

Wow!!!! Haylen, that was incredible... I failed epicly, but am at least proud of helping Haylen with the gender "slip". Yes, it was intentional... Everyone who says that a dead man's words are worth SHIT are completely right!

So, I guess I won my first mafia game ever! Vitt, stop hating on Mr Bump, you owe it all to him that I killed myself. You probably would have lynched me anyway, but Bump's wall was really good. Bump, although you made mistakes, you played very well for your (3rd, 4th?) game (I'm one to talk XD)...

Still... Haylen = genius... I am looking forward to - at least - no failing next game... Greatest thanks to all of you! Mafia's incredible, 'cuz it's like reading a really good mystery novel, but actually being part of it... Day 2 kept me on the edge of my seat! I was actually REALLY surprised that Haylen killed Vinoth (who I'm currently with in another game; please feel my pain... The first thing he mentioned after I RVS voted him as an inside joke 'cuz of what DP did was that I'm getting revenge on him for him persuading everyone to lynch me!!! )

Thanks again to everyone; Zach, you were a great mod... Haylen, I could not have asked for a better scumbuddy (and you the exact opposite!), Mr Bump, I respect you for totally destroying me in our 1-on-1 debate... Vitt, you played really well; all your posts were almost all filled with astounding logical reasoning. Stefunny, you too... DP: I think you are the main reason for my lynch; great job! Doros and Vinoth didn't post much, so I can't really judge them (well I can, but I'm not going to... Actually, Doros, you did fairly well... I'm mainly talking about Vinoth here...). Finally, Sxy, you also did pretty well... You should probably have been more aggressive during LyLo, especially once you knew that Haylen was scum (I assume you figured that out; an IC wouldn't mistake you for scum and Bump was town if she was right, so she was almost definitely scum...)

Great game, everyone! Thanks again!!!!!

[Doros]

Nice to hear from you again gapoc! Although we were on opposite sides in the game, it was always fun reading what you had to say. Good luck in your new game!

Also, what made you decide to claim doc when you do not know if anyone else had that role?

Hehe. It's funny you're still believing in that. There's 4 possible setups in the game. Both me and Gapoc were goons showing that there was either a cop or a doc in the setup not both. But to claim doc, I would have to put the roleblocker in there somewhere or it wouldn't make sense if anybody looked at the mods first few pages. So by the time I'd spotted DP's breadcrumb, I already knew I could roleclaim Doc in the future.

Oh yeah, I see what you mean Haylen. You knew with two goons it could be either a cop or doc for town, but not both. However, you would need to suggest the roleblocker role in order to make the doc claim work. Very clever of you.

You also mentioned in your first post that you will be taking notes and you would be able to tell what was good, what went wrong and how to improve, when the game has ended. So any suggestions for us on how to get better? Thanks.

[MrBump]

What Doros said at the end

I want to be Mafia again because being town frustrates me too much. I love being Mafia because I feel in control, and when I don't feel in control of a game I usually start doing bad. The worst part though is when I get TOO much control of the game (D4) I usually get too cocky and fail horribly.

Someone once told me that when going to hammer on LYLO, hammer the exact opposite person as you would normally. It must work, I ALWAYS hammer wrong on Epic Mafia, and here too xD

Well played Gapoc, that slip annoyed me the whole game and largely attributed to my Vittorio vote >_>

[Zachrulez]

Oh it's worth mentioning that after the pregame replacements, I didn't actually have to replace anyone.

Thanks to all for sticking with the game, it always runs a little smoother and more enjoyably when the players stick it out.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

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