Mini 1130 - A Fishbowl Invasion by Ninja Monkeys! - Over

[AGar]

mrifnoc\

[AGar]

VOTE: Parama

My former roommate is Slovenian, you prick.

[AGar]

Mod: Can you please post your votecounts instead of editing posts so I can ISO you when needed?

To add to this, I almost ignored an entire post because I saw the VC. Not that it was important, but down the line this could become problematic.

I'd much rather BW [winger] I think, DH. He looks to me like he's setting up for a bandwagon to take off without pushing it himself.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: [winger]

P.S. - Notice the "ex" in "ex-roommate" Parama.

[AGar]

Oso, crazypianist contradicted himself (in my opinion) when he said he did not have a problem with the vote on him. That directly contradicts the tone set by the (what I'd consider) hostile/sarcastic "Lol" response he gave previously.

Just because you perceive the word "lol" to have a certain tone, doesn't mean it's a set-and-sold contradiction.

For the rest - The above is the kind of reasoning I'm talking about with Winger really trying to get that lynch going early on.

[AGar]

Moar Winger votes, plox.

[AGar]

So, in other words, you took the vote completely serious. Which is everyone's case on you.

This sums it up pretty well.

For whoever it was that said I can't give a "lol" a tone of voice... well, tomayto, tomahto. I disagree. The "lol" implied there was SOMETHING wrong with the vote, otherwise pianist would've ignored it.

I could've lol'd any vote. You're forcing a context onto it. THAT is your cornerstone. Everyone else is moving towards CP's sudden paranoia about it, but you are going with "He was scared from the getgo because he said lol! HE SAID LOL!"

The difference is tech, and why I am currently voting you. You grok?

[AGar]

@AGar: When you voted for winger, he had only posted twice with two random votes. I would have understood your vote if that was your reason (the two RVs), but you pulled out this whole thing about him trying to setup a wagon with only those two posts of his as your basis. Why?

Post #39 - Winger calls Crazypianist's "lol" post. CP's 3rd post.
Post #45 - I vote Winger.

[AGar]

Holy. Fuck.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sundy

[AGar]

Problem with Sundy: Rattling off suspicions of 3 players, then voting for a competing wagon, tying it with the leading wagon.

Problem with [winger]: See my previous postings. Has done nothing to ease this belief.

Problem with TwistedSpoon: Newbie card is not a valid excuse. If you play the newbie card for every player who makes one newbie screw up, everyone is going to take that and run with it if their first game they draw scum. Seriously, there should be a minimum 1 NG requirement on-site.[/mdrant]

Sundy needs to be run up first and foremost. This wagon is tech.

[AGar]

134, 137.

[Winger] wagon is a go.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: [winger]

Sundy still really caught my attention, and I'm not letting that one go, but [Winger] is just digging himself deeper and deeper, flailing about.

[AGar]

told you guys he was probTown/newbtown

"looks like your scum is in another wagon"
to use an old meme

anyways, this is an awful start for the town, as our doctor is probably going to get NK'd now. It's quite like my newbie game where the doc claimed D1 as well as the cop and we basically lost all of our PRs due to roleblocks and NKs

1) Town Docs are a weak PR, as they're usually inefficiently used.
2) Mafia Doc is a totally plausible role.

I don't like the way you automatically believe the claim.

@[winger]: Sundy at least showed some kind of viewpoint between my vote and unvote, as to why he placed his vote elsewhere. You continued to flail.

Winger wagon loses it's momentum, so now...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TwistedSpoon

4srs.

[AGar]

I don't like AGar's vote on TwistedSpoon, though. He essentially voted spoon for automatically believing my claim. Is that really so weird?

I voted him for being all like "Welp, I was totes right on [winger], he's so town, he's our doc and now our doc is gonna die, thx gaiz."

But thanks for playing! Try again next time.

[AGar]

Thanks for the non-sarcastic, non-douchebag explanation.

[/sarcasm]

I was 100% serious, no sarcasm until the last line.

[AGar]

Heck, I even started his wagon.

told you guys he was probTown/newbtown

Uh contradiction much?

[AGar]

Uh contradiction much?

not really

It was the RVS stage when I voted Winger

But you claim to have "started" the winger wagon, implying your intent was to see a wagon get going on Winger.

[AGar]

TS buddying noted.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Akira

Why do you find these people before me Matt?

[AGar]

If you can't figure out the correlation between "doesn't believe claim" and "thinks is a valuable night-kill selection", then you're in no position to be playing the newbie card for someone else. Just sayin'.

[AGar]

AGar, do you think TS is buddying to Akira and both are scum? Do scum usually buddy together?

I think there's a high possibility. Scum can buddy together or buddy up to a town player to make them look bad.

[AGar]

Twisted is almost assuredly town.

Explain pl0x. I'm intrigued by this particular read.

[AGar]

Twisted is almost assuredly town.

Explain pl0x. I'm intrigued by this particular read.

Cecily-scum is trying to start a counterwagon on Twisted.

Interesting.
Tech explanation.
I grok.

I've been hanging out with Thor too much...

[AGar]

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

[AGar]

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

Can't go into too much detail. Sitting on my phone in scranton until the weather's nicer, but I have a comment.

What is your case for me over anyone else who voted Cecily?

You set your vote in mind on D1. It's straight up chaining lynches.

[AGar]

Don't like the Sundy-DH interactions either.

So I'd put him as second behind DH right now.

[AGar]

But how am I different than someone like Parama, or better yet, someone who didn't vote Akira but voted Cecily?

This post:

Whoever doesn't have a vote on Akira has my complete permission to hammer him. If he flips scum, I will cling onto a Cecily vote for dear life. You'll get an unvote from me over my dead body.

That's not a town mindset. At all.

[AGar]

But how am I different than someone like Parama, or better yet, someone who didn't vote Akira but voted Cecily?

This post:

Whoever doesn't have a vote on Akira has my complete permission to hammer him. If he flips scum, I will cling onto a Cecily vote for dear life. You'll get an unvote from me over my dead body.

That's not a town mindset. At all.

You realize that Parama said the same thing? Why aren't you on his case?

For the record, I find you extremely misguided town. You find the first person who committed such an action and bite them instead of looking at the big picture, and I don't think that you as scum would try something so wacky.

You bring up a point about cecily being a good target for a lynch, though. What do you think of the late wagoners and those off of the Akira wagon but on the Cecily wagon?

Parama didn't insinuate he wouldn't move his vote unless it was over his dead body.

The second question is confusing. Please reword?

[AGar]

Let me rephrase it:

For example: Parama and I did the same thing. Why isn't he suspect to you as well, AGar? Your reasoning is ludacris if you are voting me just for that, so please look at the people late wagoning Akira and voting Cecily without voting Akira, in this case, Bub.

Is that better?

Parama didn't latch onto a refusal to vote on D1. He may have guaranteed a scum-flip on Cecily, but he didn't insinuate that come hell or high water he was going to be voting Cecily. You did. THAT is the key point here.

The deflection onto Parama, I get what it is. It's a tactic to clear yourself, not throw suspicion onto Parama. Instead you're just making yourself look worse.

Just go easily.

[AGar]

Let me rephrase it:

For example: Parama and I did the same thing. Why isn't he suspect to you as well, AGar? Your reasoning is ludacris if you are voting me just for that, so please look at the people late wagoning Akira and voting Cecily without voting Akira, in this case, Bub.

Is that better?

Parama didn't latch onto a refusal to vote on D1. He may have guaranteed a scum-flip on Cecily, but he didn't insinuate that come hell or high water he was going to be voting Cecily. You did. THAT is the key point here.

The deflection onto Parama, I get what it is. It's a tactic to clear yourself, not throw suspicion onto Parama. Instead you're just making yourself look worse.

Just go easily.

So, you are voting me over word choice and not action nor intent?

AGar, you're a much better player than this.

The word choice belies the intent.

Buuuuut.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oso

365 was "ohshitImcaught" in many many more cleverly crafted wrods.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

Words, even.

Fuck I need sleep.

[AGar]

just realised i don't feel so comfortable with oso on l-1 anymore

Unvote

i'm probably going to get ripped to pieces for this, especially if he flips scum, but...

Hallo buddy.

[AGar]

I should read

every

post before posting to avoid looking like Chesskid3. Anywhooo

Hey everyone I'm alive. Sorry for not posting much. I'll make a substantial post within the next 20 hours or so. As for who I think is scummy, Oso/TS although I want to go back and reread day 3 to verify my suspicions.

I find it a bit funny that Oso's calling me and Bub uber scum when he hasn't voted either of us. Also it's interesting how I get lumped together with Bub without even posting...

Or this guy.

I'm backing off my DH read. In retrospect, now that the tunnel's gone, DH's responses seem townish.

Oso is scum.
With CP or TS.

That's about all we need to know.

[AGar]

Claim TS. Because I've got the hammer nice and blunt.

[AGar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TwistedSpoon

[AGar]

If you claimed PR I wouldn't have instinctively hammered, but probably would've.

If there's more than a Watch + JK in this game, there are problems.

[AGar]

Active PRs.

[AGar]

Well we have confirmed town at least.

[AGar]

what?

I'm not lynched?

But Agar said he would hammer?
I'm so confused

I read modpost as 4 to lynch. Thought I smashed your brains out.

Apparently it's 5. Did not smash brain matter out of skull.

[AGar]

UNVOTE:

Because I should be sleeping right now.

[AGar]

VOTE: Riceballtail

Pretty much textbook lurker-scum. Latest post projecting about the TS wagon was one of the scummiest posts I've seen in a long time.

[AGar]

AGar, you also didn't comment on RBTs post until huts now, 6 or so of your posts since RBT posted that. How come?

Because when I posted yesterday I had been awake for 45 straight hours and was sleep deprived? Seriously, I wasn't at the top of my game yesterday, didn't pay much mind to most posting.

[AGar]

Ugh why does no one in this game have a pair between their legs. RBT's refusal to claim should've been indicator numero uno.

[AGar]

Well that made things interesting.

My best guess says we're in really good position right now. We should have 2 tries before we hit lylo, I would think. It strikes me as highly unlikely that we started with 3 scum + 1 traitor, as that gives us ~2/3 mislynches to work with, depending on how things work out. Even without a recruited traitor, 3 mafiosos gives scum a pretty good position to go into a mylo-esque situation on D2.

If anyone has anything exciting from the night actions, now would be an optimal time to tell us, as we (again - by my own estimates) should be in a 6:1 scenario.

[AGar]

@Agar: I don't get why you're being so optimistic and telling us we have nothing to worry about

First, I'm not saying we have nothing to worry about. I'm saying that either town was fucked from the get-go or we're in a really good position, and I'm opting for the latter. Second, I believe we have good odds in our favor.

=|

anyone read the parama iso?
he buddies to bub often :/

Knowing Parama's ability to play mafia, that was likely intentional and, in my mind, makes it more likely that Bub is town.

God my gut is telling me DH, but my mind is saying "No, he's town."

I hate conflicting reads.

I'm going to re-read this game later on today when my brain isn't completely fried out. I need it desperately.

[AGar]

Ok, is anyone else REALLY bothered by the analysis DH is putting up for the NK? Like, it's just not the kind of analysis you expect from a town-player. I'm really uncomfortable with this right now...

VOTE: DemonHybrid

I'm buying hyper-bus on Akira, chain to Cecily.

[AGar]

@DH - How about that slip right there. Since when was CP confirmed-town?

[AGar]

What are you talking about? When did I mention anything about CP specifically?

When in your VCA he became green.

[AGar]

What are you talking about? When did I mention anything about CP specifically?

When in your VCA he became green.

Like when the mod edited my post without me knowing and made them green? That thing that wasn't my fault? Go look again.

AGar. Come on, now.

Gah really. WTF.

Seriously, that's bogus.

[AGar]

VOTE: Sundy

Still not comfortable with DH, but I can't get anything more than uber-bus/chaining lynches and the NK analysis, which isn't enough here.

Sundy, you're now at L-1. Enjoy, scumbag.

[AGar]

WTF.

WHY IN FUCKS NAME DID WE LYNCH THE SECOND CLAIMING TOWN WATCHER.

ASLDFJ:Q#J:GJ::GJL:AJGJFJJL

FUCKING WHAT THE FUCK.

VOTE: Sundy

HE. BETTER. GET. LYNCHED. TODAY.

[AGar]

Fuck. Potential lylo.

UNVOTE:

Body of Suspicion: Sundy

[AGar]

Why wouldn't there be 2 of the same role in one game, AGar?

Because a watcher is a retardedly broken role in the first place - it's an investigative role that can nail scumbags without any skill. You watch a player everyone calls town, the scum have to kill him, and profit. Two of them makes it damn near impossible for the scumteam to submit a kill without being trapped. Mafia watcher is completely plausible, however. You could be a watcher, you're just not town aligned.

[AGar]

Well that's kind of a lot of blatant distortion there, DH.

I missed D2 because of the speed-lynch. I didn't POST on Day 2. There's no way I could have voted or discussed Cecily.

As for my "WTF 2nd WATCHER LYNCH LYNCH" coming out of "nowhere" - I missed the end of D4. Again, this game has been flying at a quicker rate than most games where certain events happen in a matter of hours rather than over the course of a few days. So when I saw a second watcher claim, my first thought was "Yeah, we lynched that jackass." Instead we lynched Oso. That was probably the second-dumbest town play I've seen.

Re: Akira - you found the slip on what, page 8? If we were 12, 15 pages in, I could understand. But with half the game being RVS shenanigans at that point, and the CP/[winger] dueling, I had other interests.

Re: Cecily - I never said Cecily was a bad lynch. This is a straight up misrepresentation. My accusation on you was that, with the flip already in mind now, you seemed to be chaining lynches. Cecily WAS trying to start a counter-wagon, and I got that. I would have put my vote down more than likely on D2. But the fact is you insisted on the wagon, and when a townie gets wagonned with reckless abandon, I'd venture that it was heavily scum-driven. Oh look, Parama was on it. And you were nice an early.


A case this bad and poorly thought out is straight up scum trying to push through a mislynch for the sake of getting one in. This isn't bad logic, this is ignorance of facts to paint things in your favor. God damn, that was one of the scummiest posts I've read in a while.

VOTE: DemonHybrid

[AGar]

Re: Cecily - I never said Cecily was a bad lynch. This is a straight up misrepresentation.

Just would like to comment on this; you didn't say it, but you implied it.

Even if that were the case, since you barely said anything about Cecily, how could anyone have known that you had an opinion on Cecily's wagon? You barely said anything about everyone wagoned until the wagon was full speed ahead or the lynch already went through; there's no denying that.

Let me post in bold caps for you:

I DIDN'T POST AT ALL DURING DAY 2. THE SPEED OF THE LYNCH PREVENTED ME GETTING ANY WORDS IN EDGEWISE ON DAY 2.

---

Re: Claim

Town Motivations: Claim in hopes of exonerating ones' self in the face of a lynch. I don't see much merit to it other wise.
Scum Motivations: Go for the WIFOM gambit, hoping to confuse the town into not lynching you (oh look...). Try and create a justification for the scummy nature of play. Create cognitive dissonance among townies, causing them to question they're reads, partially by way of the WIFOM gambit ("He acted really scummy, but he's claiming a role that already flipped - that'd be a terrible fake claim for scum, wouldn't it?")

[AGar]

Addendum, since this seems to be a hinge-point of your case:

Day 2 lasted from 5:33 PM on 3/5 to 12:27 AM 3/6. I post in the AM hours almost regularly save for when I have days off. I rarely have any weekend days off. I posted, in a rare occurence, at 5:19 PM that night, then not again on-site until 8 AM the next morning.

[AGar]

I'm pretty sure on D1 saying an explanation provided is "tech" and I "grok" (means understand, picked it up off Thor) would imply general agreeance with a theory of scumminess.

[AGar]

Then what was with the opposition? The lynch was a no brainer for D2, its weird that you complained about it and its kind of arbitrary when you picked on me for it.

Because in retrospect with a flip, I said that it looked like you chained a lynch on a player you KNEW was town. You moreso than anyone else. The deflection onto Parama still holds pretty valid when called out on it.

[AGar]

I'm pretty sure I explained my Parama comparison ages ago.

It's still deflection. It's still scummy as hell.

[AGar]

I explained specifically why it was an example and not a deflection.

Because I wasn't looking at the big picture? That's not an explanation. That's a copout to try and get me off of your case.

Both times you

specifically

mentioned Parama, and then later on you proceeded to ask how you were different from someone who didn't vote for Akira but then voted for Cecily (hint: you said it yourself - you voted for Akira, they didn't. People's opinions will change after a flip,

especially

a scumflip).

You've been using pretty weak logic as the game has progressed and pretty much coasted on catching that slip. That slip could have easily been a hyper-bus, and that wouldn't shock me. Again, your only direct example of someone else who was on Akira and on Cecily that could have done the same thing was Parama. And oh boy, he flipped scum. But he flipped traitor, which leads me to believe you were under the impression he was town and were trying to deflect suspicion onto him, and that a town-flip on Parama would exonerate you. Funny, I call you out for that on D3, and bam, he dies N3. Potentially coincidence, but I think otherwise.

I'm very comfortable with my vote where it is.

[AGar]

I said your responses were townish on Day 3... that was a loooong time ago.

And guess what - that's exactly what I'm saying you were trying to do - PICKING OUT TOWNLIKE PLAYERS TO EXONERATE YOURSELF.

Just because one town person does it != you are town for doing it too.

[AGar]

But you completely disregard my point; you had no case to begin with since I was in the same boat as those players you found completely town.

It must be nice to over-simplify things, like my main point.

No one else worded their post in a way that insinuated it was a Cecily lynch or bust, aside from potentially Parama. You tried deflecting to Parama for that specifically, and I'm guessing it's because you (scum) thought he was town. Killing him and getting a town flip would have been a good ploy to exonerate you, if he hadn't been the traitor.

You've been posting a lot of smoke-in-mirrors, and until today, you've done nothing extremely pro-active in regards to scumhunting. You've been very passive-aggressive and instead it appears you've aimed to push fluff in the way of things like extremely overdone NK analysis which actually provided NO real analysis, only "Well it could have been A and not B, but it also could have been B but not A."

Also, I've got a strong gut feeling I can't shake. Usually I ignore gut, but when it latches on like this, I'm gonna follow it. The only other time I've had this feeling, it was right, and I ignored it.

[AGar]

As far as AGar vs DH, I have to agree with DH. AGar fails to grasp what DH actually did when he mentioned Parama. Over the course of the game, DH has been townish, and I simply don't buy the "super-bus Akira, lynch Cecily" theory.

What has DH done that is absolutely pro-town in the game?

He caught a slip, and he's coasted on that.

[AGar]

Lol this town is so fucked, I see.

[AGar]

If there is a scum-team, then given the vote distribution, there are only 2 possible scum-teams:

DH/Bub
Crazy/Agar
(DH/Crazy could be a team, but then it doesn't matter which one dies; Agar/Bub could be a scum-team, but then either one could have hammered an innocent long ago)

1) Agar started a counter-wagon when Crazy was being called out
2) DH caught a scum-slip and nailed the first scum
3) DH believed my claim rather than pushing an easy lynch, whereas Agar put me at L-1 with no explanation

If you want to refute that, CP, you've got a couple hours.

1) Yes, because it was a shitty wagon.
2) Oh boy! I've caught my own partners' scumslips before in order to be the ONE who caught first scum. It's called aggressive bussing, and it does exactly what it's doing now - let's scum coast on something miniscule.
3) When did I put you at L-1 with no explanation? I came in today and put you at L-2, realized potential LYLO and then unvoted? And so he's town because he believed your claim? Oh god lol.

[AGar]

Then explain why DH/Bub are scum, Agar.

I've outlined DH-scum.

I'm not going to chain a partner to him until I have to, because I think this isn't LYLO, as I've said. DH's case stinks of just pushing another mislynch through, like one lone scumbuddy.

[AGar]

Well whichever of you two is scum, that was a really fucking dumb move.

[AGar]

Your VCA is really unthought out. First, you're only looking at the lynch wagons, save for Oso's L-1. Unvote, hear this out for the very least and then make your decision.

Notice that Bub wasn't on Akira, but on Cecily, tried Oso both times and THEN on CP.

Here's food for thought - Bub swapped out the wagons because he couldn't win if I was lynched yesterday. The case on CP was

completely

associative to me. When I flip town, Bub no longer has a case to push on CP, Sundy is a huge risk, and you had everyone but my view as town. Who does he night-kill? By switching the wagon to CP, he eliminates the need to worry about that - I'm the mislynch bait he needs. You're fueled by my accusations against you, Bub only has to wait for you to do exactly what you did above for an easy win.

I was HOPING that you would at least hold off, because killing Sundy now puts me in a position of wanting to read up on everything one more time, as if Sundy had lived to LYLO I probably would've been most suspicious of the living watcher.

It's pretty blatant how he manipulated the kill here and you're biting hard.

[AGar]

I was going to re-read, post up a case, look at both of you and all that.

But I'm trusting my gut on this one, for the most part. Everything about DH's play has read to me as off, and Akira folded like a house of cards as if he knew fighting back would cause more harm than good. I'm being accused of "blatant" bandwagon hopping, but DH has done the same thing throughout the game. D1 it was CrazyPianist->Sundy->Akira, D3 he didn't lay down a vote at all until the RBT wagon came up and gathered steam, and D5 he flip-flopped between me and CP.

The only case to be made against Bub was that he was off of the Akira wagon and on the Cecily wagon, which holds some merit, as bussing a partner D1 in this setup could be risky, but with the traitor there, the case doesn't hold up in my eyes.

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Either I handed Bub-scum a win here, because I just don't see it, or I've been right since D3.

[AGar]

You said you don't want NK analysis, so my point on Bub is null. Even with NK analysis, it's weak, and my gut feeling is still stronger.

Ignoring gut in the past has cost me dearly, I'm not going to let it happen again.

[AGar]

UNVOTE:

Ugh fuck my life. Fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it.

I don't know what to make of this game anymore. Gut says DH. Then gut says DH is spewing town tells like a slit throat. Then gut says "no, don't doubt yourself."

FUUUUCk.

[AGar]

Slightly, but that is irrelevant.

God dammit.

[AGar]

Welp that was rough.

Fuck, man, I fucked up with that LYLO play. Too much racing around in my head, not enough to know what to make of it at all.

[AGar]

Why... didn't Mae SAY ANYTHING

[AGar]

I...didn't expect being killed on N2.

Nobody caught my breadcrumb though which makes me RAEGGGGGG

You had scum in a game with a confirmed mafia traitor present. That meant a high likelihood of a 2-man main mafia team. You shouldn't have waited at all, whether you expected to die or not.

Also - why was everyone so convinced of a 3-man scumteam PLUS a traitor. I'm still baffled by that, I was pretty sure there was no way that NRG would let a 4-man scumteam possibly arise in a mini normal.

[AGar]

EBWOP:

That sounded really dickish, sorry. The point was that you had scum caught, and 1-for-1 in that situation is ALWAYS a good call.

[AGar]

..
Also - why was everyone so convinced of a 3-man scumteam PLUS a traitor. I'm still baffled by that, I was pretty sure there was no way that NRG would let a 4-man scumteam possibly arise in a mini normal.

For my part, I wasn't convinced that there were 3 men + traitor. I did start to consider it though when the traitor ended up NKed. Like Parama, from the way I would have played it, the traitor wouldn't have been killed by accident after N1. N1 might have been a blind shot at a suspected strong townie that got the traitor instead. ANy NK of the traitor after that would have had to been deliberate and that only makes sense in a 3 man goon squad.

It made no sense in this particular game though.

I guess that makes sense then, yeah. I still don't think it would make the cut as "normal" but the line of thinking makes sense.

[AGar]

Actually, I'm kind of glad they chewed me out over it because if they hadn't, I would be patting myself on my back right now after such a "great" scum win, and would probably continue my poor play. Every game for me is a learning experience, and I try to get better every game. This game my scum day game was far superior to my previous scum games, but as a result of me not getting lynched in the first few days my night game was tested, and it failed miserably. Now I feel like the next time I get a scum PM I'll be able to play a great game.

^

This is :goodposting: after the game.

Bub, your night choices were suboptimal yeah. Your day play was really good though, I will admit. Up until the LYLO I didn't really begin to suspect you and even then... I couldn't mount a case more than WIFOM NK-submissions and such. Some luck broke on your side, especially with Mae not coming out with the guilty, but your day play is better than a lot of scum I've seen lately.