Newbie 1066 (Game Over!)

[RaudhrGarm]

Well, when I find people are suspicious of me, I tend to lie low until it blows over. When I pop back in, I see who still harbours a grudge and do the following:
Unvote: bvoigt
Vote: Trendall

Give it a rest already.

I also disagree that the first person to vote is scum. It may be that they were merely browsing the site at the time the PMs were sent out. Also someone may be reminding the experienced players that they're a noob so that the players remember that and take their behaviour with a pinch of salt.

[Maxous]

A vote because he "holds a grudge"? So you're not voting for him because you think he is a mafia member? This coupled with no comments on suspicions of anybody leads me to think you don't need to find the mafia members.
'Lying low until suspicion blows over' also suggests your main concern is simply not being lynched rather than finding who should be lynched. Which suggests mafia to me.
VOTE: RaudhrGarm
________________________________
By the way the arguements of Thian vs Mozamis and TWIE look all town to me at this stage to be honest. That is to say I think they thier suspicions of eachother are genuine rather than faked.
______________________________
This comment was in response to Bvoigt asking Nobody Special's thoughts on the game so far

7. I think [RVS is] over, and would like to hear your thoughts on the game so far.

I'm not entirely sure that RVS is over -- I don't really think it's a "stage" per se that one explicitly moves into and out of.

However, my thoughts on the game thus far: It's moving well, if a bit slowly. More discussion means more things to look at and to dissect.

It's a bit early to be calling scumteams and all, if that's what you're getting at. I don't really even have concrete reads on anyone; you're probably going to be obnoxious, though. (Don't take it personally.)

The more I re-read it the stranger it seems. 'More discussion means more to dissect' - however he did'nt comment on anyone and has not since apart from being indirectly asked about Mozamis.
Too early to call scumteams? This also seems strange. Most town are concerned with finding one person they can catch a lead on as being scummy, there is usually no concern about calling teams during the early stages. Neither has he questioned people to find out suspicious behaviour.

[mozamis]

defintely need more non IC posts from NS.

[TheWayItEnds]

You aren't going to find an argument from me that moz posts a lot of fluff. ( a LOOOT of fluff)

That being said. I find that he... doesn't really look like scum to me.

If theres something you think I'm missing, please, spell it out for me.

I would love to see your list of reasons to suspect moz.

[Trendall]

A vote because he "holds a grudge"? So you're not voting for him because you think he is a mafia member? This coupled with no comments on suspicions of anybody leads me to think you don't need to find the mafia members.
'Lying low until suspicion blows over' also suggests your main concern is simply not being lynched rather than finding who should be lynched. Which suggests mafia to me.
VOTE: RaudhrGarm

You realise he's

trying

to get voted out, right?

By the way the arguements of Thian vs Mozamis and TWIE look all town to me at this stage to be honest. That is to say I think they thier suspicions of eachother are genuine rather than faked.

Can you pinpoint why this is? To me, TWIE looks town, and Mozamis is leaning towards town. Thian isn't giving me any town vibes at all at the moment.

[Maxous]

You realise he's

trying

to get voted out, right?

Oh no he ain't.

By the way the arguements of Thian vs Mozamis and TWIE look all town to me at this stage to be honest. That is to say I think they thier suspicions of eachother are genuine rather than faked.

Can you pinpoint why this is? To me, TWIE looks town, and Mozamis is leaning towards town. Thian isn't giving me any town vibes at all at the moment.

It's hard to pinpoint but the guy seems to be making a real effort and he does have a point of Mozamis playing the 'newbie' card. I liked the point he brought up here

TheWayItEnds:
I had a game in past, that scum was the first to post. The town went on that theory and it was prooven to be true. I believe the theory was 50 percent of the time, the first person to vote is scum. ((obviously not a great theory to begin with and it was questioned)).

I am drawing from past experiences that are creeping up into this game

. Fair enough on your assessment, that it can be looked at as tunnelling.

however, why are you stating he is easy lynch bait? You are asserting that he is bait?

Trendall:
In response to you assuming that I believe people who vote half hazardly is town, and those who don't are suspicious? Wrong.

I believe people who state suspicious behaviour and don't follow it up with a vote, suspicious.

This makes me question why someone would state a suspicion yet, not vote. Especially in RVS. Usually RVS votes do not stick, unless that person continues to look scummy. I am still not comfortable with Mozamis's response.

The two above posts(in particular the bolded parts) explain his early behaviour to me. I don't agree with his beliefs but his posts have been consistent with them.
For now anyway, I am think he is town

[Crazy]

Vote Count:

Vordark

(0)

RaudhrGarm

(1) - Maxous

TheWayItEnds

(1) - Thian

mozamis

(1) - Vordark

Thian

(1) - TheWayItEnds

bvoigt

(1) - RaudhrGarm

Trendall

(0)

Maxous

(0)

Nobody Special

(1) - bvoigt

Not voting

(3) - mozamis, Trendall, Nobody Special

With 9 alive, 5 votes will achieve a lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is

March 12th

.

[Nobody Special]

You realise he's

trying

to get voted out, right?

Oh no he ain't.

I beg to differ, kind sir:

@Maxous
I don't really care if I'm lynched early on tbh. It won't make much of a difference except for the total number of villagers. The sooner I complete the early games, the sonner I can move on to theme games.

Max, why are you defending Raudhr?

Raudhr: Have you determined that you'd like to fully engage in this game after all? Also, what do you think about Max defending you, as posted above?

bvoight: Who's your second suspect at the moment?

[mozamis]

NS, why are you bringing up that old point about rg wanted to get repaced again? he answered that:
"Also, on replacing me, I will be active and try to help the Village, it is just that it's better than lynching the doc, right? You don't want to end the first day phase to find that you've killed off one of the most important assets to the Village. Also, I signed up so that I can improve my clue-solving skills (there are clues, right?)." (RG)
Yeah, he may not be that interested in this game, but he seems more confused and inexpereienced than scummy to me.
Also, people don't seem to like it when people defend each other (Mozamis, why are you defending RG?Max why r u etc. But if you don't think the guy is scum, why shouldnt you defend him?
NS, please tell us your main suspect please.

[Trendall]

Nobody Special, why so inactive?

[TheWayItEnds]

Raudhr: Have you determined that you'd like to fully engage in this game after all?

This pot has a point, kettle.

Nobody Special! You should stop trying to fly under the radar and post something of worth in this game.

Those 6 posts of yours in 9 pages... very.... unilluminating.

[Maxous]

@Nobody Special: I am not defending him. Garm stated he does'nt care if he should be lynched which is'nt the same as actively trying to be lynched.( I think so anyway)
I beleive as mafia, he is trying to pull one over us here.

[mozamis]

you think NS is mafia?

[Maxous]

Not neccessarily.
I'm stating my distrust of RaudhrGarm

[mozamis]

so he's got time to post in his other game, but not this one.

VOTE NOBODY SPECIAL

[bvoigt]

bvoight: Who's your second suspect at the moment?

I'm actually getting more town reads than scum reads at the moment. My second suspect would be Maxous, though. I feel like his Raudhr vote is the easy choice rather than real scumhunting.

As for those town reads, they are:

Vordark- For a new player, he's providing a lot of well-thought out analysis.
RaudhrGarm- He looks too confused to be part of the "informed minority."
TheWayItEnds- I'm not sure I agree with ISO #15, but it's a townish post.
Trendall- ISO #3 is an excellent post.
mozamis- This isn't as strong, but he is definitely giving off a town vibe.

Which leaves:

Thian
Maxous
Nobody Special

[Nobody Special]

My top two suspects at the moment are bvoight and Max. Max for defending both Raudhr and mozamis -- I don't think that defending is a *huge* scumtell, but it's sometimes appropriate -- and yes, Max is my weaker read.

bvoight has been very active and seems to be intent on mentioning everyone in the game. Good scum tactic to avoid PoE by who he's

not

talked about. And a flurry of activity can be used to appear more town.

Note that I'm not ready to string them both up, but you asked for my suspects; there they are.

Yes, mozamis, I have other games I'm posting in. I'm currently in 7 games, some more complicated than others, and it takes some time to cycle through them all and post accurate, relevant information. My last post in this thread was 16 hours ago; not only do I have other games, but I also work and have a life. While there are times that I seem to post almost constantly, there are other times that I'm not on for up to 24 hours.

[Nobody Special]

(Special note to the Newbies about being in seven games at once: Do not try this at home. It takes an amazing amount of time, patience, and organizational skills.)

[bvoigt]

So...I'm your top suspect for being active and mentioning everyone?

[Nobody Special]

Is that not what I said? Reading comprehension FTW.

[mozamis]

to me your bvoigt suspicions seem a bit OMGUS. He has been quite active. But mostly in saying who he thinks is town. Which doesnt seem at all scummy to me. He is not flinging suspicions around like some people *looks sheepish*.

[Vordark]

You aren't going to find an argument from me that moz posts a lot of fluff. ( a LOOOT of fluff)

That being said. I find that he... doesn't really look like scum to me.

If theres something you think I'm missing, please, spell it out for me.

I would love to see your list of reasons to suspect moz.

I believe that my posts 175, 185 and 187 are a decent summary of my thoughts. Specifically, post 187 touches on everything that has concerned me.

*sighs" whats anti town is that you can't get into your head that i've already answered the accusations. REREAD MY EARLIER POSTS.
Whats frustrating is that you are wasting the towns time. Look, I dont mind a bandwagon on me later -we might get somei nfo from other people. But we need to start getting more posts from the lurkers like Maxous and Nobody Special. Once everyonehas posted a lot, feel free to come back to me. I'll willing be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum. But only after other people have contributed more.
But at the moment, town is going nowhere, and you're not helping with your obsessional hunting of me.
I appreciate that you dont like my style. Well, never mind that and focus on hunting scum.

Mozamis's answers have been "I'm new", "You are exaggerating", "Stop being rude", "Don't be so rude", "I'm just trying to enjoy the game", "You are repeating yourself", "Bit scummy of you", etc. Looking over your posts I can't find a single answer that doesn't boil down to "Stop being mean to me, I'm new". Of course, I may have missed something given the sheer volume of useless posts you've made which is making the task of examining your statements harder with every passing hour.

The rest of your post is such obvious deflection it's a joke. "I don't mind a bandwagon on me later"? "I'll willing [sic] be the first lynch if we all genuinely think its gonna help track scum"?

I think the town

is

going somewhere since right now I'm thinking you've been playing to sympathies, filling your post count and attempting to deflect suspicions from the beginning. In fact, aside from voting a couple of obvious lurkers (and making it

really

clear that's what you were doing) and your posting a list of who mentioned who (which conveniently "cleared" you), I can't see a single post of yours that isn't either totally useless, accusing someone of being mean to you, deflecting (not answering) criticism or obviously trying to gain sympathy.

Again, I'm still asking everyone else just how much we're going to write off for a new player.

Do an ISO. Although, that has been conveniently made a daunting task because of Moz "trying to enjoy the game".

[mozamis]

*yawns*

[bvoigt]

Is that not what I said? Reading comprehension FTW.

Yeah, I know that's what you said...and I'm not exactly impressed.

[Vordark]

Given how hard Moz is making an ISO against himself, here's the results of yet another pass through the thread.

The first thing that caught my attention was the bvoight vote situation. Note post #7 below, wherein bvoight clearly states that "games usually begin with RVS (Random Voting Stage)" then votes mozamis "for posting first".

Hi, everyone! Our games usually begin with RVS (Random Voting Stage) or RQS (Random Questioning Stage).

VOTE: mozamis for posting first.

This is Moz's reaction:

Hmm bvoigt seems pretty keen to jump on the first available bandwagon. Not gonna vote yet, but suspiciously scummy behaviour.

This is the first example of Moz tossing the phrase "suspiciously scummy behavior" (or a variation thereof) at someone for absolutely no reason. I also dislike the lack of a vote here, but that's a discussion for later in this post. Thian called him on it and Mozamis's next post is as follows:

Thian, i am holding a vote back cos i have no real idea whether he is scum ornot. Bit too early to tell and all that. Don't just want to vote out of mindless spite/retaliation. Why did you vote for me? *sad face*

I don't like "i have no real idea whether he is scum ornot [sic]". Just prior Moz called bvoight on "suspiciously scummy behavior" but now hedges this. Also, he says he doesn't want to vote out of mindless spite/retaliation but you'll see a lot of that before this is done. The last bit with the "*sad face*" and wink is interesting for a reason I'll point to later.

Post #28 marks the beginning of the "NOOOOOOB" declarations:

no exoerience on this site. played a couple of times with my mates years ago. so TOTAL NOOOOOOB really

Mozamis's next post (#33 in the thread) is the first one that really troubles me:

ok, so on the limited amount of evidence so far, my feeling is that Thian and bvoigt are scum. they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together. Of course, that might be completely wrong :) But they seem to be very eager to lynch someone as quickly as possible, whereas everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious, becuase they don't want to lynch a townie. bvoight and thian don't seem to be so worried about that...

He quickly connects bvoight's random vote and Thian's and says his feeling is that they are scum because "they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together". He then quickly hedges this and implies that bvoight and thian aren't worried about lynching a townie whereas "everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious". This seems to say "bvoight and thian must be Mafia because they aren't acting like me and clearly I'm town".

bvoight called this in post #34 and asked why himself and Thian. Moz's answer:

partly cos u both voted for me. and this isnt me answering for raudhr, but he did vote for you in the post that immediately followed him saying he found u suspicious. just to get the facts right.

Note "partly cos u both voted for me". So it's not okay to vote because of mindless spite/retaliation (which he'll do later anyway), but it *is* okay to link people together for stupid reasons and claim they're scum?
He continues to respond to bvoight in his next post:

the way it ends vote seemed jokey to me (he voted vordak as last person to confirm )
rg voted for u as u were the first person to jump on a bandwagon.
your vote is the only one that seems a bit scummy so far, the votes seem completely fair enough.

So bvoight's totally random vote "for posting first" is the only vote that seems a bit scummy so far? I'll also note that it took Moz four posts to reply to bvoight's one. That is a trend that bears noting.

My first post (#39) calls Moz on his throwing around of baseless suspicions, his lack of a vote and hedging. His response:

i guess we have different approaches. i thought being cautious at this stage might prevent us from lynching a townie by mistake. after all, i haven't got much to go on. so i just said what i was thinking, which was that voight jumping on the first bandwagon seemed scummy. but that didnt seem enough to vote for him. i didnt want to look like i was voting out of retaliation, as i explained above.
so i'm gonna remain cautious until we have a clear idea of who the scum is.
surely announcing suspicions is better than just flinging votes around?

First we have the "different approaches" statement which will continue to crop up. We have more remarks designed to imply that Moz cares deeply about the town. He continues to note bvoight "seemed scummy" and he continues to be clear that he cares very much about his appearances and doesn't want to vote "out of retaliation".

In post #45 I explained why, at the time, I was getting a slight town read off of bvoigt. I also explained why Moz's overly-cautious play and throwing suspicions around was concerning. In the next post, bvoight notes of Moz "While he does look scummy, my gut is telling me newbie town."

Moz's reply in #47 is *very* interesting for a number of reasons:

i think all of vordarks points can be answered thus : bvoigt is more experienced than me, this is my first game. so he is probably behaving in a more "normal"/"acceptable"/town way than i am.
bvoigt knows the form better than i do -what looks town/scum etc. apolgies if i am coming off scum, but i'm just posting" stream of consciousness stuff" really, ie just typing what i think.
and of course i'm worried about how i look to others! i dont want get lynched, you see...
maybe voight is town -thats why i havent voted yet.
as to my passivity, i am reading a few of the older games on this forums, and it does seem that common practice is to vote more rather than FoS. still, clearly i will be voting at some point, just not yet.
i'm gonna check who hasnt posted yet -what do u guys think about lurking being scummy?

The first bit of this post is him hiding behind the noob card immediately after bvoigt said "my gut is telling me newbie town". Moz attempts to explain away his prior and all future suspicious behavior right there. He follows this up with "apologies if i am coming off scum".

He continues by now saying "maybe voight is town", beginning to distance himself from the previous discussion. The last sentence is important because it sets up Moz's future votes: "what do u guys think about lurking being scummy?"

In post #52, Thian is the first to note that scum hide behind the noob card all the time and asks why he is brining up being a noob so much. He also draws attention to Moz's stupid linkage of himself and bvoigt. Moz's response:

ok, so on the limited amount of evidence so far, my feeling is that Thian and bvoigt are scum. they seem to be the only players working in tandem/together. Of course, that might be completely wrong But they seem to be very eager to lynch someone as quickly as possible, whereas everyone else so far seems a bit more cautious, becuase they don't want to lynch a townie. bvoight and thian don't seem to be so worried about that...

Mozamis:
observations, okay we get it, you're a noob. Scum hide in "Noob" cards all the time, why are you bringing up your noob factor this much. Also reason for your want to pair myself up with bvoigt because we are working in tandem? You are purposely trying to misdirect suspicion off of you onto 2 others right now as a divide and confuse tactic. I don't like it.

wow this was an aggressive post. dont like that much. Am sensing am i going to have to toughen up to survive here
I said i was new once. thats not "bringing the noob factor this much". you and voigt both voted for me, so i saw that as working in tandem.
Yes, i certainly am trying to misdirect suspicion from me, as i am town. Although "dividee and confuse" tactic is exagerating what am i doing. I simply said that i thought you and voigt were suspicious.
Or is that too confusing for you?

Am not keen on how you are EXAGERATING and OBFUSCATING and RIDICULING my arguments. I may not know a lot about mafia. But i know these are ancient rhetorical devices to make your opponent look weak/silly/a liar.
Bit scummy of you?

First up, he calls this an "aggressive post" and says he doesn't like that much. "Am sensing am i going to have to toughen up to survive here ". This is a blatant attempt at gaining sympathy. He continues to use the fact that both Thian and bvoigt voted for him as evidence of their working in tandem.

Notice the last paragraph is entirely devoted to saying "You're being mean", with the last line being yet another example of tossing "suspiciously scummy" at someone. This is a prime example of Moz's entire strategy for defending himself. "Stop being mean to me! I'm not scum, you are!"

In post #57 Moz continues to make the fact that he's new crystal clear:

hmm, glancing over my posts i have mentioned that i am a NOOOOOOOOOOOOB aa few times lol
Oh well, what of it? So are most people here. My point was that, to a semi experienced player, bvoigts posts are going to look more strucutred, more purposeful, and in short, more town than mine.
the fact that he looks more town than me, doesnt of course, mean that he is town and i am scum.

He admits he keeps calling himself a noob, laughs it off, then explains that others posts are surely going to look more town than his because of his lack of experience. I'd like to point out that this entire post is Mozamis again using the noob card to explain his behavior, so he's doing again exactly what was just pointed out. The constant message from Moz here is "I'm new and I'm town".

In post #68, Moz continues:

Mozamis:
Why are you agitated? Your posts are coming across this way. Now that you agree that you have made the mention of your "noobness" more than just once. i will re-state, the fact that you are playing the "noob" card doesn't excuse you from being mafia or being questioned. Often times, newer players will throw the Noob card out there to get a free pass. I found it odd that you are throwing that around like you are hiding in it to get sympathy points.

Guess i was agitated because I'm innocent, and i always find it annoying to be wrongly accused. Like everyone else But again, I suppose have to get used to that in mafia I don't mind the questions. I just found your "ok, we get it" post slightly aggressive. Not trying to get sympathy (how could that work when there are so many noobs in this game?), merely pointing out that when peole are not used to an agreed format of something, they are likely to behave in unpredictable ways. Eg "OMG! he's playing the noob card!-classic scum tell! when in fact, he is just posting like a noob.
I do see your point though, how scum might like to hide behind that. But i have nothing to hide. And nothing to declare, except my genius

On the RG thing, surely best not to try and get him replaced? He is posting, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.

He explains his agitation by continuing to claim town, uses the words "wrongly accused" and continues to call Thian's post "aggressive". Then he immediately throws out "Not trying to get sympathy (how could that work when there are so many noobs in this game?)". That is a glowing red flag. No one yet had suggested Moz was trying to gain sympathy, yet here he is defending against the accusation. Also, he uses this as yet another excuse to use the noob word.

Moz's post (#85) has be LMFAO:

have to say, i think all this talk about night phases/the rvs etc is a bit of a distraction from scum hunting.

Yeah, the talk about night phases and RVS was distracting. I'm glad we got rid of that to make more room for Moz's one-line emotes like his humming a song and yawing. Thank god we've got Moz on the case to save us from distractions. I think this post was just a clever attempt to appear town, which Trendall bought in his later analysis by calling this post "very pro-town" (in post #102).

In the very next post, Moz throws out the first of his lurker votes. Note that in a post above he announced his intention to vote the lurkers.

he said he was absent until mon. its now tuesday. So i'll whack my vote on trendall and see if it gets him to speak

VOTE TRENDALL

Shortly after this he made another post:

shall we all just whack votes on the lurkers, ie trendall, maxous and vordark? feel free to put your votes back on me when they show up :)
But would be nice to speed things up beyond the pace of an asthmatic snail :)

This is all "See, I'm voting the lurkers! I totally have a pro-town reason for my votes!" This is voting the easy targets while avoiding the need to offer any real reasoning or discussion.

After Trendall posts, Moz quickly moves the vote to another lurker:

yes, for anyone who rereads this thread, page four -after post 87- is in the wrong order. the forum went down last night.
detailed posts from trendall HUZZAH!
So to try and get Maxous to post

UNVOTE VOTE MAXOUS

Again, easy vote. He doesn't actually discuss anything in Trendall's post or ask any questions, just moves on to the next lurker.

Post #119 continues to raise my level of suspicion:

Mozamis:
I don't see myself voting for a lurker just yet. Some have stated they will not be around. So my vote isn't moving from you just yet. you are not out of the woods that easily. You stated you want to move the game along. I am assuming you want the night phase to hurry up? Why is that?

LOL i find this post a bit ridiculous "you obviously want the night phase to hurry up (COS MOZAMIS IS SCUM PEOPLE!)
i think its fairly obvious that i just wanted the game to speed up a bit.
And after lots of juicy posts last night ,it has :)
Either Thian is town and genuinely thinks i am scum, or he's scum.
Without trying to take it personally, i am finding his posts a bit scummy. all this exageration of my comments, and "sinisterisation" (not a real word lol?) of my comments seems a bit scummy.
I'm keeping my vote on maxous until he posts, but thian looks dodgy to me. Unless she's just very clumsy town *bangs head against brick wall* :)

Moz continues the pattern of calling posts against him "ridiculous", "exagerations" and continues to say anything of the like "seems a bit scummy". Of course, Moz's last sentence gives us yet another hedge, making sure he's covered his bases.

With post #120, Moz begins to ramp up the totally useless posts, many of which I've already highlighted. Posts like these serve only to fill the thread and Moz's ISO, making it more difficult to extract anything of note.

In post #122, Moz moves onto the next lurker, although he doesn't vote, just drops in a casual one line post:

ps anyone else feel that Nobody special is just blending in a bit?

This is buried in the middle of a continuous string of *EIGHT* short posts from Moz (#118 - #125). Of course, two of these posts were single line posts to throw suspicion on another lurker:

hmm, second time maxous has been browsing this forum without posting. is that suspicious or laziness?

i see ya there maxous! post! :)

Post #128 is one of the most laughable things I've ever seen:

so, in another game, at the end, one of the scum(who lost) said "yes, i should have mentioned my scum partner at some point. not mentioning him was a mistake. so heres a list of all the players and who they havent mentioned. Not saying this proves ANYTHING, just a reference list at this point.

MOZAMIS: has NOT mentioned NO-ONE :roll: nice grammar.
VORDARK:" " RG,THIAN,MAX,NS.
RG: " "VORDARK,TWIE,THIAN,TRENDALL,NS.
TWIE: " "NO ONE
THIAN: " " VORDARK,TWIE,TRENDALL,MAXOUS,NS.
BVOIGT: " "VORDARK,TRENDALL
MAXOUS:" "NO ONE.
NS: " "VORDARK,TWIE,MOZAMIS,THIAN,TRENDALL,MAXOUS.

so by this logc, if i was scum,NS would be my partner because he hasnt mentioned me yet.
Totally realise the problems with this (eg TWIE and MOZAMIS have mentioned everyone, but obviously could just be blending in etc).
Still, i was bored :P

Moz compiles a list of who mentioned who which conveniently "clears" himself. Note that this was right after a set of posts from Moz where he quickly mentions all the lurkers, which looks a lot like he was trying to fill out his own list. Of course, at the bottom he makes it clear the he and TWIE have mentioned everyone, but then laughs it off and concludes with "Still, i was bored". This is Moz bringing us "evidence" but Moz immediately distancing himself from it and writing it off as the result of boredom in case anyone called him on it.

Also note that this is a back-door means of highlighting two lurkers (TWIE and Maxous).

Now, in post #130 I ask our IC just how much weight should be given to the "noob" factor. Moz had been giving me scum vibes since page one, but everyone here seemed to be willing to write this behavior off. It was a post that I think made it quite clear that I remained suspicious of Moz but was looking for some tip from our IC concerning how much is typical to read into a new player. At the very end of my post I made the remark "If it is reasonable to discount Mozamis's behavior thus far on account of inexperience, Thian's continued reaction as a more experienced player bears further scrutiny and TWIE's comment here makes more sense..." Moz's reaction?

so you're suspicious of Thian?

He completely ignores all of the other comments, offers no insight to post itself and instead writes a one-line post to direct suspicion back to Thian.

Nobody Special responded to my question in post #134, which Moz replies to:

@Nobody Special:

How much weight is reasonable (or simply typical) to give to experience or inexperience in determining whether or not behavior is suspicious and worthy of scrutiny? Thus far, I have been giving it near zero weight, but I am beginning to think this may be an error.

Normally, I don't factor "newbness" int omy suspicions; at least not

too

much.

I look at mozamis as a cute, adorable puppy so full of energy, bouncing around the room, trying to get

everyone

to pay attention to him (her? I default to male, and haven't checked its gender field yet).

I'm sure (I hope; it's bordering on annoying) that mozamis will expend all that energy at some point, and will grow into being a good and respectable Mafia player.

In other words, to boil it down to a word, at the moment I see mozamis as Neutral.

lol BIT patronising? I am just trying to be active. "good, respectable mafia player" how pompous of you. Everyone has different styles, nobody special. At the moment your style seems to be to post without much content...

Again we have "You're being mean to me" and Mozamis highlighting that he's "just trying to be active". He concludes with "At the moment your style seems to be to post without much content". So Mozamis makes clear mention he's trying to be active, all the while pointing an FoS at the lurkers and now NS.

In #137 he continues:

vordark, why dont you like "how hard i seem to be trying". Talk about "you are damned if you do, damned if you don't". I am posting a lot cos i enjoy it, and i want town to win.
Sorry if thats suspicious.

Mozamis is "posting a lot cos i enjoy it, and i want town to win". Again, "I'm active and I'm town". Notice that this is post #137 and Mozamis hasn't actually contributed *anything* real to the game. The sum total of his contribution is a few obvious votes on the lurkers, all the while setting himself up as a sympathetic, "active" newbie.

In post #138 we get:

ok, I admit this vote is partly cos he's last post irritated me (OMGUS i believe?), but he has been very vague. seems keener to be the IC than to hunt scum. so:

VOTE NOBODY SPECIAL

if he gets a bit more involved in the hunt, i'll reconsider :)

Oh, so Moz *will* vote out of mindless spite/retaliation. Also, he's clearly an uninvolved lurker which Moz has already established is bad, unlike himself who posts a lot.

In #141, the discussion has turned to RaudhrGarm:

On RG, if hes mafia i'll eat my left toenail.
Gotta be very clever scum to play the way he's been playing. I know this gets a bit circular, but if i was scum, i'm not sure i'd want to look quite as "can't be bothered to help town" as he has.
Be amazed if he is scum.

Here Moz says "if i was scum, i'm not sure i'd want to look quite as 'can't be bothered to help town' as he has". Note again that this is Moz pointing at the lurker and making it clear that his own behavior wouldn't match. In other words, "If I was scum, I'd be doing the opposite of what I'm doing now. I'm clearly town because I'm posting a lot and I keep saying I want to help the town win".

Of course, after this post Moz makes certain to put another one in as padding:

oh, and if i ever buy heavy metal, please lynch me ;)

This continues the trend of surrounding anything game related with accusations of meanness or one-line drivel. Anything to get that post count up and make an ISO harder.

In post #148, Trendall makes a statement that really starts me looking hard at Mozamis once I went back and re-read it:

Actually, I'd say that Mozamis has done the least 'blending in' out of anyone here. He's posted like a million posts or something and is really putting himself in the foreground right now. Problem is, I think Mozamis is the kind of person who would do that regardless of whether he was town or mafia, so I'm still neutral.

In post #149, Mozamis gives a "response" to an earlier post by Thian.

Mozamis:

You gave us the reason "why" you stated "Being new....avert attention". However, why do you feel the need state it? Even prior to me questioning you about the subject, you kept stating it, unprovoked, why did you feel it is necessary?

No, i was provoked by Vordark as i explained in my previous post. I am as keen as everyone else to drop the "noob thing" but you keep bringing it up.

So my posts are "provoking" him? Again, this is the "You're being mean to me" defense. Mozamis then tries to say he wants to drop the "noob thing" and it's Thian that keeps bringing it up. This is a deflection. Mozamis was very intent on making his noobness clear to everyone and now that someone is pressing him on it, he's trying to get distance and put the "issue" back on the "aggressive" attacker.

In post #150, Mozamis responds to Trendall's remark above:

Actually, I'd say that Mozamis has done the least 'blending in' out of anyone here. He's posted like a million posts or something and is really putting himself in the foreground right now. Problem is, I think Mozamis is the kind of person who would do that regardless of whether he was town or mafia, so I'm still neutral.

(TRENDALL)

LOL you sum me up perfectly. One of my fav songs is called: "Bigmouth Strikes Again" ;)

Not only is this post useless for the town, but it is yet another blatant attempt to gain and maintain sympathy.

In post #152, Mozamis continues to respond to Thian's pressing:

Thian, please look again at my replies to you ,post 38 (p2) and posts 54 and 57 (p3). In all of them I respond to your questions, and quite clearly i thought.
This leads me to conclude :
1) You are an uncomprehending townie.
2) You are scum.

2)seems more likely, and yet what makes me unsure is that surely the mafia would use better tactics than you are. Your tactic (if u r scum) seems to be repeat the same accusation and ignore the answers. That doesn't seem a great scum ploy to me. Or is it one that is used?
anyone else got any thoughts on Thian?

I will note that posts #38, #54 and #57 contain only his already noted weak justification of bvoigt's "scumminess" and his "stop being mean to me"/"I'm a noob" defense as previously noted. Mozamis also counters with his other standard response, "You must be scum!" and tries to put the attention back onto Thian.

He follows up with:

ah. got it. if you r scum, i guess the tactic u r using is" get everyone to go off on a wild goose chase", ie whack suspicion on me. Is that called diversion?
but if you r town, thian, i hope you now understand my postion and we can move on.

So clearly, if Thian continues to press the matter he's scum and not town.

In post #161 TWIE points out some clear issues with Thian's recent posts, to which Mozamis replies:

*cheers TheWayItEnds* :lol:

In posts #163 and #164 Mozamis makes a very weak and transparent attempt at a personal attack on Thian, now that he smells some blood in the water.

So this is from Thians first ever game on this site (end of the game, he was town):
@ kingdavid. you couldn't have said it any better. I did make a fool of myself through the game.

It was hard for me to come across pro town

and I am not surprised I became that target. Next time I will try to not be so flakey with posts and take a little time thinking.

I am more used to playing mafia in person

as conversations happen at that moment. Sleeping on something and then coming back to it and then flipping through countless of pages.

It was hard for me to keep up

but yeah, if I hadn't known any better, I would have pinned me as being scum LOL
(Thian, Newbie 963,p30,post 732, my bolding)

Still, at least you didnt play the boob card in your first game, eh? ;)

lol i like my freudian slip

Why say with one post what you can say with two or three? Gotta get that post count up so that no one notices I haven't actually contributed anything but a few lurker votes.

In post #167 Mozamis drops the funniest whopper I've seen in a while:

no ones put forward a decent argument yet as to why my behaviour is scummy.
The argument seems to consist of:
1) Mozamis didnt vote when he was supicious of someone.
2) he then claimed newness as his defence.
3)therefore he is scum.

As syllogisms go, its pretty weak.

There have been many arguments put forth for why Mozamis's behavior is scummy. Half of the people in this game have said that Mozamis's behavior is scummy. This isn't a defense, it's a hallucination.

Posts #172, #173 and #174 push "You're being mean to me", continue to gain favor/sympathy and push suspicion away on the mean and agressive player.

In post #175 I highlight Mozamis's behavior, especially the flood of useless posts which are making it harder to sort out people's statements (especially his own). Mozamis's response:

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

Yep, the "Stop being mean to me" defense.

In post #178...

Mozamis:
The pressure is fine. Votes are votes. You need to realize, that TheWayItEnds, is just as guilty as the next person in this game. Just be careful when someone is coming to your defense, you shouldn't just readily accept it because they could just be mafia trying to buddy up to you, then night kill you and no one will know any better because you didn't suspect them.

Oh, i wasnt acceptng it, but i did enjoy it. Of course, i relaise he could be scum But he destroyed your arguments completely.

Here Mozamis continues to cheer on TWIE and gain sympathy, even flattering him in the last sentence. He does that in #182 as well...

Mozamis:
So you won't bother questioning why TheWayItEnds is defending you? Or Why he called you bait? Do you know how he knows you are lynch bait. He is essentially confirming you are town. How would anyone know that except for mafia. Wake up mozamis. Please.

Of course everyone is suspect. Do try and be sensible. I just liked the way he ripped your nonsenscial "argument" to shreds. Of course, he could be scum and you could be town. But i liked his style

Mozamis likes your style, TWIE. Won't you be his friend and keep the mean people away?

In #183, he responds to me:

dont be rude Vordark. I'm just trying to enjoy the game.

Grow a thicker skin, mellow out and stop the useless posts. I've begun leaning town on you since I am finding it really hard to believe that a newb mafia wouldn't have shut up by now. However, right now you are glowing, red hot distraction that is drawing too much attention away from scum hunting. You obviously have a lot of time in front of the computer which could be very useful for us, but you are burning too much of it on being defensive, voting for people that upset you and trying to be the center of attention. I'm not the only one who thinks this, so maybe, just maybe, it's not us it's you. So please, just chill out and help us hunt.

You need to calm down, grow up and stop being rude. Your persistent attacks on me are a volossal waste of the towns time. I'll you off cos 1) you're a NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB and 2) you're probably a kid.
So look through all my replies to thians ridiculous arguments from the beginning.. You'll see that i answered them early on. Since then, he has merely being repeating them, As have you. Either you are scum, or just not very bright. Please try and sharpen up, and stop being rude. They only serve to devalue your already flimsy arguments.
And unless told otherwise by the Mod, I'll post as much as I like :P

I'm still being mean oh, and now I'm a noob kid. Jeesh, is Mozamis using the "personal attack" strategy he decried earlier? He then highlights the non-existent/useless responses he's supposedly made. Then it's more personal attacks, "Stop being mean" and calling the arguments against him so far "flimsy" again. As a final note, he continues to make it clear that he'll keep posting as much as he wants, even though that sort of thing hurts the town.

Post #184 proves that...

"hums You're Not The Boss of Me"...;)

Now he's back to hammering the lurkers, specifially Nobody Special because he smells blood there and he's an easy, risk-free target.

So, again, look through what Mozamis has posted here and see it for what it is. His total contribution? Easy votes on obvious targets, the justification for which he was careful to establish beforehand, all the while continuning to make it clear that these people are doing the opposite of what he is doing. He has not offered any real analysis on anything. He's pointed an FoS randomly around the room, voted only when it's risk-free or to vote against mean people. This is *all* that he has contributed.

Moz's only defense to any of these suspicions has been either "I'm new" or "Stop being mean", usually followed with "I'm not scum, you are!"

And throughout all of this, he has been blatantly attempting to gain sympathy, hide behind his noob status and inflate his post count so it's harder to ISO.

So again, how much of this obviously scummy behavior do we write off?