Mini 1130 - A Fishbowl Invasion by Ninja Monkeys! - Over

[Bub Bidderskins]

/confirm

I actually did a double take when I saw the name of this game. Fishbowl Invasion by Ninja Monkey's FTW!

[Bub Bidderskins]

Slovenia? what are you talking about? As usual, I'm unable to follow you Parama.

Mad, rabid geese are trying to usurp the Sovereign Powers of Slovenia. It's been in all the papers.

The revolutionary forces of "

O

ur

M

ighty

G

ood,

U

nrivaled

S

torks (OMGUS)" are, as we speak, storming the government buildings....

What are you talking about?

Vote: Oso

OMGUS stands for: Obscenely Monstrous Gecko Urinating Secretly. Yours doesn't even have a verb, bitch.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Odd.

Unvote.
Vote: Oso

Bub's acronym is better than Oso's acronym.

Well, on another forum I'm running an acronym game where I give a word and other people write an acronym for it. I have to judge the acronyms, so I've had practice. And my acronym also proves that Geckos can do more than save you 15% on your car insurance.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Unvote; Vote: [winger]

Winger, why did you vote, unvote, and then re-vote?

As for the traitor, it will only really come into play once later in the game when we're looking for buddy tells. Right now we don't have any confirmed scum, so we have to look for individual tells, such as winger's double voting in the RVS.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Wait, come to think of it...

DH, why did you vote twice in the RVS?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Unvote; Vote: [winger]

you probably already know this, and excuse me if you do, but just in case

a) Votes must be bolded

Oops! I could have sworn I bolded it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Vote: [winger]

Because I felt like I RVS voted the wrong person and no information would come of it.

Fair enough.

Can someone please explain why voting randomly twice is such a bad thing?

Because random voting twice defeats the purpose of random voting to begin with. The idea of the RVS is to get an early wagon going. Once you get a wagon, you can gauge other player's reactions to that wagon. Random voting somebody, and then random voting somebody else defeats that purpose. Also, see Parama's response:

[winger] #33 - Double RVS-ing tends to be a solid scumtell, since there's no point to it. You RVS for pressure - why would you destroy reasonless pressure on one person to push reasonless pressure on another?

@Bub: Have you read/understand the points against crazypianist? Do you agree with them?

Yep, I read them. The reason I didn't post my thoughts on it earlier was because I wanted answers from DH and winger dealing with the RVS first.

On the whole, I agree with most of the points made, with the exception of:

That aside...

Vote: Sundy

Sundy? More like scummy.

I hope to god this was an RVS joke, because if you were actually serious...

His vote was 'meh' and it wasn't any worse than most other RVS votes are.

However, the other points you brought up were good. Crazypianist's actions seem strange at best. Why say 'lol' to a random vote? What was the joke? And then that nonsense about calling DH's bluff.

Crazy is either a paraniod mafioso or a townie that takes things way to serious.

@Crazypianist: Why were laughing out loud at DH's RVS vote?

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote; vote: crazypianist

Mr. Manical Maestro, you have not answered my question. Why did you say 'lol' to DemonHybrid's then random vote? Also:

Again putting words in my mouth. Why you think I'm paranoid or panicked for that matter, I don't know.

How saying you are paranoid putting words into your mouth? You are paranoid and you totally over-reacted to DH's random vote. You're scared of getting voted on you, even random votes on you. A town wouldn't really care if somebody random voted him, but scum would get a little creeped out at the thought of a wagon on him.


Also, I am really not liking cecily's play. He made his "random" vote on crazypianist, and then unvoted once pianist's seat got a little hot.

FoS: Cecily

Cecily: Why did you unvote?

As for winger, the only reason I really voted for him was to get out of the RVS. His double RVS vote was maybe marginally more scummy than most RVS posts, but it isn't even in the same ball-park as crazypianist's paraniod activity.

[Bub Bidderskins]

People I'm currently suspicious of:

Bub Bidderskins: Voting without bold, possible sneakiness
DemonHybrid: Gut
Parama: Might just be play-style

But I'ma place my vote where it will count this early in the game and I think the Winger case > the Pianist case.

vote: Winger

So, you named three people that you are "suspicious" of. You said that a fourth person's case is better than a fifth person's case, and so you vote for the fourth person. Why even mention those first three people? Why do you think winger is scummier than crazy?

Again I don't see why people interpret me saying lol as paranoid.
Bub, I answered your question in 73. I laughed at DH's vote because honestly it looked like he was trying to get something out of me that didn't exist with no pressure or reason. Specifically:

Vote: AGar

because I know Parama and an RVS bandwagon on him doesn't tell us shit.
...
Actually, you know what? Neither would AGar's.

Unvote, Vote: crazypianist

He thought he would get information out of me that he wouldn't get from other players. I saw this as him thinking I was weak, but I returned the favor with my lol.

[winger], 74 is just plain wrong. I never contradicted myself. DH was trying to form a wagon on me for what seem like a weak reason(stated above) which is why I lol'd and why I had no problem.

Cecily, it looks like you're trying to explain away your vote on me as RVS but 62 seems like it's not random.

I need to read through again and figure out who to vote.

DH's reasons were obviously weak because it was an RVS vote. Right now, you seem to be paranoid. You were overly worried about DH building an RVS wagon on you. In addition to that, you have done virtually no scum-hunting this far in the day. Admittantly, the day is still young, but you have posted quite a bit, and virtually all of your posts have been attempting to get suspision off of you, not trying to find other players who are scummy. Scum are usually worried more about their personal standing than they are about other people's standing. You fit that bill.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't really think winger is scummy. Looking back, what he said in response to crazy's 'lol' was perfectly reasonable. It did seem that pianist had a problem with DH's vote, and still he has not really explained it well.

Looking back, I don't really like Cecily's unvote. It seems like a pointless gesture. For the moment I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's obviously not one of the more active players here. But still, I've got my eye on him.

As for sundy, I think his reasoning is ill-founded. I'm not really seeing what it is about DH that makes sundy think he's scum. To the contrary, I actually find DH to be pretty townish.

Preview edit: Oso is stretching in the preceeding two posts, but I really don't like this:

Your vote on crazy, myself and then back to crazy is fairly alignment null as far as

crazy and I

are concerned.

Possible scum-slip, much?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I am positively opposed to the winger wagon. The case on him is thin, and most likely scum-driven. The main reason behind it is his attacks on crazy, which I view to be quite legitimate.

In response to cecily suggesting I don't pick up on sarcasm very well, let me say that I picked up on the sarcasm of the 'lol'. The reason for my suspision is that I find it odd for somebody to be sarcastic in that position. But in addition to that, crazy has looked scummy. Over the course of this day, crazypianist's only posts have been to either:

1) Defend himself
2) Attack Winger

He only started to attack winger

after

Sundy made a case on winger and

after

it became clear that winger was the other big wagon. All of his posts have been focused on not getting himself lynched. He has not hunted for scum, and the only suspision he's had is piggy-backed off of sundy's suspision. And he only decided to piggy back that position after Sundy had explained his original scummy posting and no longer looked scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Your vote on crazy, myself and then back to crazy is fairly alignment null as far as

crazy and I

are concerned.

Possible scum-slip, much?

Sure, why not......

umm, where's the vote. I looked. It should be there.

There was no vote. There wasn't supposed to be one. I just thought it odd that you would say "as far as crazy and I are concerned." It won't mean anything if crazy flips town...but it does raise at least two eyebrows.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Cecily/Akira is where it's at. I'll:

unvote
Massive Mega-HoS: Akira

Because Parama wants Cecily to have the honors of putting Akira at L-1.

Even beyond the scum-slip, though, Akira has been scummy. He voted for winger when it looked like winger was getting lynched, and then un-voted when it looked like he wasn't getting lynched. Cecily voted right after Akira to put winger at L-1. Cecily+Akira=obvscum. With Cecily and Akira being scum, that makes twistedspoon townish. Even though he was looking a little scummy before, Cecily's obvious attempt to deflect the wagon onto him clears all of that.

@Cecily: Is Akira scummy or not? Yes or no answer please, we know that you don't believe his scum-slip.

Amid all the chaos, however, crazypianist has slipped out of sight.

@Crazy: What do you think of Cecily/Akira scum team?

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP: Oops! I missed crazy's post where he weighed in on Akira. Sorry, crazy, that was my mistake. However, you didn't say anything about Cecily, so I still want to know what you think about a Cecily/Akira scum-team.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Just for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume Akira right about your scum-slip #1 for this post. Moving on to scumslip #2....

2) [[winger]] survives - Not confirmed scum but pretty close, at least for me.

He's trying to set it up to where if he survives the night and doesn't kill winger, then we had better lynch him. This possible out-come is exactly what scum would want the town to think about a non-winger night kill. A big thanks to Akira for helping us figure out what the scum were planning to do tonight.

So, even with scum-slip #1 aside, Akira has still made one too many scumslips for my taste. Even without the scum-slips, he was moderatly scummy, but the slips put him over the edge.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Missed a bit:

Even beyond the scum-slip, though, Akira has been scummy. He voted for winger when it looked like winger was getting lynched, and then un-voted when it looked like he wasn't getting lynched.

I don't see what's so scummy here.
When I voted for winger, I wasn't parroting the case, I expressed it with my own words and with my own opinion.
When I unvoted for winger, well, he claimed doc.

But you still think he's scummy in spite of the doc claim, right?

[Bub Bidderskins]

So after the

shenanigans

fun, joy, happiness, laughter and puppies of the previous day, it was decided that a well earned rest for everyone was in order.

So while all the goldfish pondered how to close their non-existent eyelids for some relaxing shut-eye, the remaining donkeys were plotting their vengeance.

They considered stabbing them to death with a banana, but in a world of poverty and starving children, such a waste of food would be sacrilege.

The proven method of asphyxiation by farting could have been used, but that posed a few issues...

The Greenhouse effect. The methane from farting posed a significant risk to increasing global warming. They were not eco-terrorists, and were avid supporters of the Kyoto Protocol. That was one minor inconvenience.

Then there was the issue of resources. It would be a challenge for a handful of asses to be able to sustain a production of fart gases enough to asphyxiate their target. So obviously now, this method of murder was now out of the question.

Ahh! They had a brain wave! And they thanked the heavens for blessing them with a higher IQ than those pathetic goldfish.

So unknown to the clueless goldfish who were still figuring out how to get some shut eye, they sneakily phoned the Climate Police Hotline to tip them off about the gross violations that had occurred during the death of Akira.

And in a hail of sirens, the Climate Police arrived in their solar powered submarines. Eager to get back to their donuts and hotdogs, they attempted to arrest the first suspect they saw, [winger]. Of course, [winger] resisted arrest, and they were left with no option but to pepper spray him. But without eyelids, and hence the inability to close them, the pain drove [winger] crazy causing him to gouge his own eyeballs out. Opps.

It was a successful night, and the monkey's mission was back on track.

[winger],

Town Jailkeeper

, killed Night 1.

---

Day 2 begins now!

Votecount 2.0

Not Voting (11) - Maemuki, Oso, Bub Bidderskins, Cecily, DemonHybrid, Parama, AGar, TwistedSpoon, Sundy, crazypianist1116, Riceballtail

With 11 Alive it takes 6 to lynch, 5 to no lynch.
The

deadline

is 8:00am 20th March GMT+10.30.

Best. Flavor. Ever.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I am as townie as it gets.

Can I just ask how a scum could be so stupid to behave like I did yesterday? It would be suicide. No rational person would give themselves away like that if they were scum, so clearly I am not. The only thing I can say is that I am not stupid enough, if I were scum, to push so hard against an Akira lynch if I knew he was scum. I am not an idiot. I know how this game should be played, and I know that if I were in a scum position I would never have pushed so hard to keep Akira alive.

Crap excuse. You didn't really push that hard agains the Akira lynch. You just said "it wasn't a scum-slip". You were reluctant, not out-right against. Please do not change history. After this post, I want two things to happen:

1) You to claim
2) Me to hamma

If 1) does not take place in a reasonable amount of time, I will reverse the order.

[Bub Bidderskins]

HAMMA HAMMA HAMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vote: cecily

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

I'm not buying it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Scum could just as easily been on the wagon as off of it and that wouldn't have changed the result.

[Bub Bidderskins]

VOTE:Sundy

Please explain your vote.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't usually put much trust in meta. It encourages stupid people to keep on being stupid otherwise people will think they're scum. However, I personally don't see anything scummy in what Oso did. Scum would want to keep on pushing for a lynch of a claimed power role. Backing off wouldn't help them out. However, there is one interesting thing about Oso....

Oso: right before D-2 ended, you said that both me and crazy looked "super-fine" for a lynching, yet you haven't even brought that up today. What gives?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Oso: right before D-2 ended, you said that both me and crazy looked "super-fine" for a lynching, yet you haven't even brought that up today. What gives?

This:

VOTE:DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

I can see the reasoning behind that. Anything else pinging your scumdar about him?

VOTE:Sundy

Please explain your vote.

This as well^^

Aside from the casting suspicions at 3 players but vote a fourth (which is worth noting, but I thought Sundy explained that well enough) anything else at all? Sundy has been reading pretty much dead neutral to me all game. I haven't been paying as much attention there as to others.

I haven't had any major twitches on my part about either Sundy or DH. It may someday bite me in the ass but having played with AGar before (even though he was scum in one of the games), I'm interested in almost anything he has to say at any given time.

Riceballtail's vote of Sundy is reasonless. By that I mean RBT gave no reason for the vote.

I'd like to hear from both players before I go cluttering up the thread with yet another case/vote.

Two different votes (at that point. Parama's vote of me makes it three votes on three different people now) is quite enough for the moment, in my opinion.

I don't really get what your trying to say here. My point was that you came out of D-2 saying that either crazy or me were good lynch targets. When D-3 started, you decided to sheep onto Agar's attack of DH instead. Just for reference, here is the post you made at the end of D-2:

Yep, that's a record for any game I've played in.....ever.

See that new avatar of mine? If Cecily actually flips scum, I'll keep it until someone from this game tells me I've learned my lesson. That would make 3 blown calls in 2 days for me. winger, Akira (who I thought was going to flip town despite being willing to hammer him) and now Cecily.

If not, Bub or crazy look superfine for tomorrow's lynching...I'll bring the popcorn.

That looks a lot like distancing from a mis-lynch while at the same time pushing some other mis-lynches the next day. It seems like at this point you already knew that Cecily was town.

vote: Oso

Why did you say that crazy and I were super-fine for today's lynching?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not really buying the case on DH. Personally, I think he's town. I don't read his reference to Parama as deflection. I think he's got a valid point in that Parama basically said the same thing he did and Agar didn't latch onto him. The fact is that Cecily was such a prime target for a lynch that scum could have just sat back and watched.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not really buying the case on DH. Personally, I think he's town. I don't read his reference to Parama as deflection. I think he's got a valid point in that Parama basically said the same thing he did and Agar didn't latch onto him.

The fact is that Cecily was such a prime target for a lynch that scum could have just sat back and watched.

The bold. That's just it Bub, she wasn't. And that is the main reason I like you as scum.

You said I looked super-fine for a lynch at the end of D-2. I made that post D-3. So since that's the main reason you thought I was scum, how could you have thought I was scum before I made that post?

Your post right before your hammer of Cecily:

..
Crap excuse. You didn't really push that hard agains the Akira lynch. You just said "it wasn't a scum-slip". You were reluctant, not out-right against. Please do not change history. After this post, I want two things to happen:

1) You to claim
2) Me to hamma

If 1) does not take place in a reasonable amount of time, I will reverse the order.

Ooof, easily the most scummy post of the game.

Okay, if it was the most scummy post of the game, why didn't you point that out when I actually made the post? Only now,

after

I voted for you do you say that it's scummy. When I actually made the "most scummy post of the game" you went after DH. Obviously it wasn't so scummy then. But that was before I started suspecting Oso.

1) She already had claimed here:

....I am as townie as it gets.

. That was while everyone was waiting on her to claim, she did there.

2)You are going to hammer no matter what she says (as your next post proves). You can tell it by the tone of that post.

At no time yesterday, did anyone on Cecily even consider giving her the benefit of the doubt on her actions re:Akira and they should have because her play was so atypical of how a scumbuddy with any amount of experience would have acted.

Okay, this is just BS.

#1: No, she didn't claim. All she said was that she was townie. That's not a claim.
#2: You don't know what I was going to do if she claimed a power role, so don't make such a brash assumption
#3: You obviously weren't the one giving Cecily the benefit of the doubt. As a matter of fact, you only mention Cecily

after

Cecily was already lynched. You knew that Cecily was a prime lynch target for the next day, yet you did nothing to try and stop people from lynching her until

after

she was already lynched. You never really supported the wagon, but you were never against it until

after

Cecily was already dead. The point is that you obviously wanted Cecily to be lynched, but didn't want to be seen on the wagon. Then, you start to go after people who were on the wagon.

About crazypianist, 2 things.

1) Hammering Akira without waiting for him to post a final time. Had crazy been an actual townie, he would have been just as interested as anyone else should have been in any final thoughts he(Akira) had to give, on the chance that he was telling the truth about his claim as well.

That looks like stealing the hammer from from the person who is willing to hammer to shut off discussion and get as much town cred as he can from his partner's flip.

2)That he leads off the day voting Cecily doesn't help his case much at all either (if it's not clear, nobody on Cecily's wagon is anywhere near town in my reads. But since there can't be that many scum left, some of you have to be town. Trying to figure out which ones they are is going to be a chore though).

I think he actually did what AGar thinks DH did except that he was quicker and was taking advantage of a situation that presented itself. Get on the wagon as far away from the hammer vote of a townie as he can.

Everyone has a built in excuse for the Cecily wagon simply because everyone on it looks so bad right now but there is no way there are that many scum left.

Which is why I don't like DH's comments so far today but I have to admit that they make a certain amount of objective sense. Looking for scum on her(Cecily's) wagon isn't going to easy.

Does that answer your questions, Bub? Or did you have some others?

Crazypianist hammered Akira after Akira had already made his last post. Oso, you have some serious issues with remembering how things went. And it seems like you always mis-remember to your benefit.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Hit submit by mistake.

No one had time to anything to help Cecily that might have wanted to. I posted in the thread here before she was at L-1. I made 2 posts in Forum 62 during the day, they are easy and require no thinking.

I knew people were posting here because my email notified me that new post were made but I was working and in no scenario that I could think of did I expect that she would be lynched before I could get in here and see who was taking the most advantage of it and attack them.

Lying scum. When you posted Cecily was at L-1. Check it out for yourself. Enigma posted the vote count that put Cecily at L-2, and then Twistedspoon voted in the next post. Nobody voted or un-voted until you posted something that was totally un-related to Cecily being at L-1. My point still stand: you had the opportunity to slow things down and yet you didn't.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I did and you are right. I look at enigma's vote count and read the posts down to the one I responded to that Parama made.

This probably seals my lynch but I didn't see TS's vote. (I know, it is right below Enigma's vote count. But I missed it just the same.)

Until you pointed it out just now, I thought Cecily was at 4 votes when I made that post. I've ISO'd a lot of people this game TS hasn't been one of them.

Figuring out that Cecily was at L-1 would have been as simple as 4+1=5; 6-5=1. Your excuse doesn't hold water.

Even if you thought that he was at L-2 (which I highly doubt, considering that Twisted's vote was right after the vote count), you didn't try to get people to slow down. The four votes that you admit to seeing were right after each other. Any reasonable player would assume that the lynch was moving very quickly, and yet you didn't do anything to say that the lynch was too quick until Cecily had already been lynched.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I still prefer an Oso lynch.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think that I am unpressurized enough to go on. I do see that TS almost got the noose instead and yes, I do appreciate what you did TS. Getting lynched is part of Mafia but I'd rather it not happen to me and I'm glad your unvote didn't end in your lynch.

Ehhemm....

MY TUUUURN

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

tl;dr - Sorry, tried to get one, couldn't do it. There is just so much to work with. In addition, some responses to him that I didn't make in my defense when I was run up.

Note: A lot of this is highly subjective so if you think 'confirmation bias' at any point, I won't hold it against you.

First off:

I'm not really buying the case on DH. Personally, I think he's town. I don't read his reference to Parama as deflection. I think he's got a valid point in that Parama basically said the same thing he did and Agar didn't latch onto him.

The fact is that Cecily was such a prime target for a lynch that scum could have just sat back and watched.

The bold. That's just it Bub, she wasn't. And that is the main reason I like you as scum.

You said I looked super-fine for a lynch at the end of D-2. I made that post D-3. So since that's the main reason you thought I was scum, how could you have thought I was scum before I made that post?

It wasn't that sentence Bub. You are right, you made it today, not yesterday but it is entirely indicative of your attitude in your hammer post of Cecily on D2. here. You want to hammer, it obvious. The only reason you did the whole claim before hammer is to seem reasonable in my opinion. I do think that had she claimed a PR you would have backed off but it would have pissed you off mightily.

I'm scummy because you think I would have been pissed off if some hypothetical had a happened. "Player A is scummy because I think he would have thought this if Player B had done this." You're putting words into my mouth here.

Which brings me to this little gem:

I don't usually put much trust in meta. It encourages stupid people to keep on being stupid otherwise people will think they're scum. However, I personally don't see anything scummy in what Oso did.

Scum would want to keep on pushing for a lynch of a claimed power role. Backing off wouldn't help them out

. However, there is one interesting thing about Oso....

Oso: right before D-2 ended, you said that both me and crazy looked "super-fine" for a lynching, yet you haven't even brought that up today. What gives?

Uuhhh, wut?? The bold part. Since when? Scum don't push power role lynches unless they are

more

than reasonably certain it won't come back to bite them in the ass. Not on Day 1, not any Day. I know that makes my unvote of [winger] suspect except that it is completely asinine to push a D1 lynch of a claimed PR for both scum and town. It's null. Giving town points for it makes little sense and it confused me when you said that. But I figured out why you are doing it as in regards to what I said above: To seems like a reasonable, take all views into account player when in reality you aren't.

Again putting words into my mouth. You are totally miss-representing what I said. I simply said I wasn't buying the meta argument. I never gave any town points out. If you want to make a theory topic about whether scum push wagons on claimed power roles, then do it. As a discussion ender, let me say that the scum's incentive is to push a lynch of a claimed power-role.

He did it here as well.

Just for the sake of argument,

I'm going to assume Akira right

about your scum-slip #1 for this post. Moving on to scumslip #2...
..

So, even with scum-slip #1 aside

, Akira has still made

one too many

scumslips for my taste. Even without the scum-slips, he was moderatly scummy, but the slips put him over the edge.

Glaring Example. "I'm willing to set this aside..." but it is painfully obvious that he really isn't. Had he been willing to put it aside, he never would have mentioned it. It a facade to look reasonable. Kind of like those sleezy TV lawyers who say something like "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, we all know Akira is an accused thief but I'm going to set that aside.... So, Akira, why'd ya steal the car, hmmmm??" It just looked better because Akira did turn out to be scum.

Your post makes no sense and the analogy you bring up is really poor. Akira denied that that particular scum-slip happened, but I showed that even if what he said was true, he had still made another scum-slip. A better analogy would be: "so even if the DNA evidence is mistaken, we still caught you on video stealing the car."

Even more than anyone else in the thread at that point, he pounds the Akira/Cecily=scum into the ground here and here (they are a post and EBWOP) but it is also painfully obvious to me that when people hear or say "

Akira

" he(Bub) wants their next thought to be "

..and Cecily his scum partner.

"

Totally mis-representing my actions. Two posts asking Cecily and crazypianist what they think about the Akira/Cecily scum-team hardly constitutes "beating it into the ground". They had gone silent on the issue and I wanted to bring them back into the game. Again, connecting dots that aren't there to begin with.

At that point, he gets the best of both worlds. Look at the state of the game at that point and put yourself back in that day, take the Akira/Cecily flips out of your mind. If she gets any more flustered, there is a good chance the Akira wagon could transfer over to her. A town flip of Cecily strengthens any defense Akira gives the next day. Failing that, since Akira probably is going to be lynched at that point, Bub isn't the real driving force behind the lynch at that point. Parama is. Any accusations of "too easy, that must have been a bus" fall on Parama and perhaps DH as the wagon starter, but not on Bub, he has insured that he prominent at casting suspicions at Akira but he hasn't voted Akira, he is being courteous to Parama by 'holding off'.

Virtually the entire case on Cecily revolved around Akira being scum. If Akira flipped town, then the case on Cecily would fall flat. If you had read the thread, you would have known this. Of course, you have already demonstrated an inability to read the thread through, so this doesn't come as a surprise...

Not reading the thread isn't necessarily scummy, but it seems like every time Oso mis-reads or mis-represents something, it's always in his favor. It feels more like scum trying to re-write history than an honest mistake.

The final thing, as this more nebulous and more subjective but it stares out at me really badly, is that he(Bub) never does really give anyone the honest benefit of the doubt, like I said above except for here:

I'm not really buying the case on DH. Personally, I think he's town. I don't read his reference to Parama as deflection. I think he's got a valid point in that Parama basically said the same thing he did and Agar didn't latch onto him. The fact is that Cecily was such a prime target for a lynch that scum could have just sat back and watched.

But that is tainted. Bub was the hammer on Cecily so any defense he makes of another person on the wagon, is, by proxy, a defense of himself. If he can diffuse AGar's reasons for voting DH, he also does the same thing for himself should attention turn to him. He's not giving DH the benefit of the doubt there, he's covering his own ass.

You're right; it is nebulous and subjective. I think DH is town because I think he's town. Period.

[Bub Bidderskins]

So far as RBT is concerned, I read her more as lurker-town than lurker-scum. She needs to get into the game and start posting content.

I still think that Oso is the scummiest player, mainly because of his hypocritical behavior concerning the D-2 Cecily lynch. He criticized people on the Cecily wagon for not slowing down and giving her the benefit of the doubt, and yet Oso himself had the chance to give his opinion on Cecily and he didn't do it. Yes, I know, 3.5 hours isn't a long time, but the fact that he posted proves that he was there. He posted when Cecily was at L-1 and he didn't say anything about the Cecily wagon at all.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Basically, I don't have to like your wagon, but I also don't like you alive. They're RIGHT; you have been completely active lurking and dodging play all game. The question is "Who is GENUINE about it?"

So far, 0/3.

RBT, what do you mean by that?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I am not up for a RBT lynch right now. The fact that she would say such things as "0/4" indicate town to me. Yes, I know it's WIFOM, but scum are never that cheeky when it comes to people who are voting for them.

[Bub Bidderskins]

cool I can hammer

RBT seems a bit more VI than scum to me though :/

Contradiction much? You're saying that you're willing to hammer, but you're distancing yourself from the actual lynch.

Question: How can you be willing to hammer somebody who you think is town?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm sorry I haven't posted sooner, events IRL caught up with me. Reading now...

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, let me get my head around this situation.

I don't think scum would ever want to kill somebody they thought was the traitor. If the traitor stays alive, then it's one mis-lynch till LYLO. Right now, I think that the scum killed Parama either because they thought he was obv-town, or they thought that he was a threat to them. Either way, the didn't think that Parama was the traitor.

He probably tried to send out some signals to the mafia that he was the traitor that the mafia simply didn't pick up on. ISO in progress...

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, I looked back at Parama, and probably the player he pressured the most before RBT was Oso. However, he didn't pressure him that much. Call it a slight scum-tell, but that, plus the stuff I brought up on D-3 demand a:

vote: Oso

His speculation on last night also doesn't ring well with me. He said "this is what I would do if I were scum..." he was trying to tell us that if he was scum, he wouldn't have done a certain thing. All of that is simply an attempt to deflect suspision on him that perhaps carried over from D-3.

As for Sundy, I think there may be a decent case on him, but I would like an Oso lynch better.

As for DH, the case on him is weak at best. I seriously don't buy the "hyper-bus, setup Cecily lynch" theory one bit, and my overall read on him is town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CS, why did you ask Sundy to claim if you were going to hammer Oso?

Right now, we

could

be in LYLO. I'm going to say that we are probably not in LYLO, but still, just to be on the safe side we should be carefull with our votes and only use FOS's until we're reasonably sure who we want to lynch.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Why so defensive DH?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Why so defensive DH?

I'm just showing crazy how uneducated that statement was and how big of an impact a misrep like that can make in a near-endgame situation.

Fair enough. I view role-fishing to be a marginal tell in anyway, and you were being mis-repped.

As far as AGar vs DH, I have to agree with DH. AGar fails to grasp what DH actually did when he mentioned Parama. Over the course of the game, DH has been townish, and I simply don't buy the "super-bus Akira, lynch Cecily" theory.

Also:

I didn't know I was going to hammer Oso at the time. I was weighing the options and thought Sundy pointed out some good holes in Oso's argument that I need to reevaluate now. When I asked for the claim, I was leaning towards hammering Sundy. I agree with you on the possible Lylo Bub. Don't vote unless you're positive!

You were leaning towards hammering Sundy, but you hammered Oso when he claimed vanilla townie. What was it about Oso's claim that made you want to lynch him instead of Sundy?

[Bub Bidderskins]

CP needs to post thoughts. Now.

I didn't know I was going to hammer Oso at the time. I was weighing the options and thought Sundy pointed out some good holes in Oso's argument that I need to reevaluate now. When I asked for the claim, I was leaning towards hammering Sundy. I agree with you on the possible Lylo Bub. Don't vote unless you're positive!

You were leaning towards hammering Sundy, but you hammered Oso when he claimed vanilla townie. What was it about Oso's claim that made you want to lynch him instead of Sundy?

I think you're a bit confused. Sundy was the one who I asked to claim not Oso as he already claimed. I didn't lynch Oso because of his claim but because of Sundy around page 24ish.

Sorry, you're right. Oso claimed back on D-3.

What has DH done that is absolutely pro-town in the game?

Throughout the whole game he has posted content and generally helped the town. And yes, him catching the scum-slip is a town tell in my book. He has given his opinions, and has generally been assertive throughout the game.

Right now, I'm for a CS lynch. His vote on DH was very opportunistic. Also, to this point Crazypianist has been on

every single mis-lynch wagon

. He was first on Cecily, fourth on RBT, and hammered Oso. True, he hammered Akira as well, but at that point Akira was dead in anyway and he was probably just going for WIFOM.

Vote: Crazypianist

I personally think he's a better scum bet than AGar.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I do not like how Demonhybrid is trying to set himself up as the kingmaker. It's like he's trying to get me and AGar to vote for each other. I know I said that I thought DH was town, but this is three player LYLO, and I'm going to look at

both

players in detail. I'm going to post my preliminary thoughts here, and then I'll post my in-depth reads after I have completed them.

AGar:

Sort of flew under the radar up until DH made the case against. He did make the case against DH for deflecting, but that point was weak IMO. He didn't really start posting much content until he came under direct attack, which reads as scummy in my book. I didn't like his attack of DH.

DH:

Made some good posts early in the game, and generally was forward and townish. However, on D-5 it looked like he was trying to pin two different people as scum (CP and AGar), and his hop onto crazy pianist looked opportunistic. He saw that I didn't want to get on the AGar wagon so he hopped on the wagon that could achieve a majority. His early play on D-6 with a three person LYLO looks like he may be setting up himself as kingmaker (as I said before).

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, I've ISO'd demonhybrid. The first part of the game went just like I remembered it, that is, he was mainly townish. However, read in isolation, this posts stands out:

Whoever doesn't have a vote on Akira has my complete permission to hammer him. If he flips scum, I will cling onto a Cecily vote for dear life. You'll get an unvote from me over my dead body.

This was essentially the basis of AGar's suspision of DH. When AGar brought it up, DH responded with these posts:

VOTE: VOTE: DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

Can't go into too much detail. Sitting on my phone in scranton until the weather's nicer, but I have a comment.

What is your case for me over anyone else who voted Cecily?

And Parama posted minutes after I did. What is your point?

VOTE: VOTE: DemonHybrid

Yesterday smells completely like chaining lynches after a bus.

Nice try though.

Can't go into too much detail. Sitting on my phone in scranton until the weather's nicer, but I have a comment.

What is your case for me over anyone else who voted Cecily?

You set your vote in mind on D1. It's straight up chaining lynches.

But how am I different than someone like Parama, or better yet, someone who didn't vote Akira but voted Cecily?

Sundy is suspect to me for that reason.

But how am I different than someone like Parama, or better yet, someone who didn't vote Akira but voted Cecily?

This post:

Whoever doesn't have a vote on Akira has my complete permission to hammer him. If he flips scum, I will cling onto a Cecily vote for dear life. You'll get an unvote from me over my dead body.

That's not a town mindset. At all.

You realize that Parama said the same thing? Why aren't you on his case?

For the record, I find you extremely misguided town. You find the first person who committed such an action and bite them instead of looking at the big picture, and I don't think that you as scum would try something so wacky.

You bring up a point about cecily being a good target for a lynch, though. What do you think of the late wagoners and those off of the Akira wagon but on the Cecily wagon?

So, you're voting based off of word choice over intent? Think about what you're saying.

My question: there are people who voted Cecily but not Akira, and there were people who voted Akira late and still voted Cecily. What do you think of those people?

[Bub Bidderskins]

When I first read these, I thought that DH was making a legitimate point about why AGar didn't go after Parama. However, looking closely, there is not an answer to the original concern that AGar brought. He doesn't try to explain his actions at all. He simply attacks AGar for singling him out and points to Parama as an example of a "townie" who did the same thing. Upon review, it reads as evasive, and somewhat scummy. Furthermore, there is this post:

oh man DH you're acting like scum now. Why are you, instead of providing a defense to AGar's accusations, deflecting to me EVERY SINGLE TIME? Especially since I don't think you've ever pressed any suspicions on me.
Town read redacted; guess I'm gullible for whatever type of WIFOM Akira pulled there.

Parama, where did I say I thought you were scum? You've looked town all game.

Thus indicating that DH thought that Parama was town. It was that very night when Parama was killed. Perhaps DH thought that Parama was town, and was threatened by this post. So he killed him the following night and it turned out that Parama was the traitor.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Later that day, he made this post:

I'd say there is definite scum on both Oso's and TS's wagons. I need to do some analysis.

This was right after he got off of TS's wagon.

@DH: Why did you say that "there is definite scum on both Oso's and TS's wagons" when you yourself were on TS's wagon earlier that day?

[Bub Bidderskins]

@DH: Why did you say that "there is definite scum on both Oso's and TS's wagons" when you yourself were on TS's wagon earlier that day?

Can scum not be on the same wagon that town is?

Just because I said there was probable scum on both wagons and I was on one of them, that doesn't mean everyone on the wagons is scum. I would hope that didn't need to be explained.

Yes, they can be, but that isn't the issue, the issue is the hypocracy. You criticized a wagon which you had just been on.

Also, it seems your main focus is on me being on the Cecily wagon, saying that I would vote Cecily no matter what.

1. First off, your whole point about me seeing Parama as town has no merit. Tell me one person who saw Parama as scum at that point in time.
2. Second off, my point is that (and once again, I had hoped that this didn't need to be explained) it was normal townie behavior to suspect the person naturally defending the scum after a slip. I equated my play to Parama's (at the time, who I, and everyone else, thought was extremely town) as an example to show that AGar's argument had no merit. And it doesn't.

Here's Cecily's lynch wagon.

Cecily (6) - crazypianist1116, Parama, DemonHybrid, Maemuki, TwistedSpoon, Bub Bidderskins,

Not Voting (5) - Oso, Cecily, AGar, Sundy, Riceballtail

^ Cecily lynch wagon

All three of us (Parama, you, and I) were on the wagon, and I'm definitely sure that if AGar was on to post, he would have been, too. So I don't understand the tendency to single me out just because I stressed the fact that I was going to commit an action that was obviously the right move at the time and to basically be honest to everyone. Cecily was the obvious lynch if Akira flipped scum at the time. That is normal logical cognitive processing, and I wasn't the only one who saw it.

tl;dr:

My Parama comparison was just an EXAMPLE.
Townies and scum alike were on the Cecily wagon. You were, too, and I'm sure AGar would have been if he had time (AGar, I'd like you to clarify this, as this is just an assumption; you never gave your PERSONAL thoughts on the wagon before or after it and whether you would have liked to been on it at the time)
My choice in language, in order to be honest, really has nothing to do with the intent; the intent was the same as every other townie on the wagon.

I understand that it was an example, that wasn't my issue with your defense from AGar. My issue was that you never actually explained why you voted for Cecily like you just did now. The whole of your response to AGar was devoted to asking him why he didn't go after Parama who did the same thing. Your response comes off as evasive and defensive.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm sort of in the same position as AGar except backwards. For the whole game my gut was telling me that DH was town, but now, upon re-examining his posts in isolation, I've come to question that read. However, before I make a decision, I need to look at AGar. I don't have time to do that tonight, but I'll try to get my findings on him in by tomorrow.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub, how long are you going to be around?

What do you mean?

[Bub Bidderskins]

vote: AGar

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm so sorry to disappoint you, DemonHybrid.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm somewhat sad that Bub won, actually. Since he's about the worst player I've seen...
Angry rants from the dead QT:
Rant time:
Killing the mafia traitor should NEVER happen after Night 1. NEVER.
Why?
You have a recruit. Did you recruit someone last night? Nope, so you should kill them the next night.
Of course, all hell could break loose and that person you tried to recruit got lynched the next day, and that's the ONLY case in which a traitor can be killed after N1... but traitors tend to be good at not attracting suspicion early on (see: my play this game <_<).
To kill a traitor on Night 3 is a sign that you shouldn't be playing mafia, Bub. You obviously don't know how to.
And yes I have played on a scumteam with a recruitable traitor - same traitor mechanic as this one, in fact. Guess what? We never shot the traitor because we had confirmed non-traitors after Night 1.
Oh thank god. It's NOT OVER but Bub will find a way to screw it up. He might claim scum. I'm pretty sure he's trying to throw the game with the way he's been playing.
I can't believe how town's trying to twist my DH defense into a buddy-tell. Guess what, Akira LITERALLY CLEARED DH and there's people still lining up to lynch him. I don't really get that AT ALL.
nooooo
Bub, you need to be online more often. Seriously. STOP HAVING A LIFE.
Okay, Bub, you obviously don't care about this game. Go die.
Screw it.
I hereby proclaim that town should win this game.
BECAUSE I DON'T WANT BUB TO WIN.
DH: Hey Bub if you stick around for 10 minutes I'll give you a chance to quickhammer AGar
*hour and a half later*
Bub: Uh... wtf u talkin' bout nub? vote: parama he's scum

...yeah.
I nominate myself for only good scum play in the game because everyone used my ISO to mislynch 3 people in a row after I was killed <_<

I admit, I totally screwed up the night game. I've never played in a game with a Mafia Traitor before, so I didn't really know how to react to that. Sorry

[Bub Bidderskins]

Now I see why some people wanted the dead thread kept quiet (read: away from me); that kind of language would have offended a more offensible soul.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Actually, I'm kind of glad they chewed me out over it because if they hadn't, I would be patting myself on my back right now after such a "great" scum win, and would probably continue my poor play. Every game for me is a learning experience, and I try to get better every game. This game my scum day game was far superior to my previous scum games, but as a result of me not getting lynched in the first few days my night game was tested, and it failed miserably. Now I feel like the next time I get a scum PM I'll be able to play a great game.