Newbie 1067 - Game over - Town Win!

[inspiratieloos]

I am Inspiratieloos, I usually have a hard time getting more than 100 words in a post so you should be happy.

Vote: Perry

Because he is the only SE that I've seen nothing from yet

[inspiratieloos]

... I haven't seen anything from Perry because he's actually a newb too My bad.

Guile: Almost all the evidence in this game is the evidence you create yourself, especially day 1. By voting people for mostly useless reasons at the start of the game you try to get information by gauging peoples reactions, both the accused and the others.

We aren't actually going to lynch someone just yet (and if we do the last person to vote will almost certainly be scum, making the day productive )

[inspiratieloos]

My vote on Perry won't be going anywhere for now so,

Unvote: Perry
Vote: Escho

[inspiratieloos]

And why do you want him dead so badly?

[inspiratieloos]

How much wood

would

a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Edited

1. Black and red about equal
2. No, only when you have no other real suspects
3. No, there are exceptions (only lynch

almost

all liars)
4. Separate comments/questions about specific posts 1-3 at a time, hopefully hang them with the answers.
5. Not much, why would it want to?

My questions:
1. How often have you played this game before and how experienced were the other players
2. How fast can you say: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Answers:
1. I once played about 10 IRL games (werewolves) in one night, 2 as game leader, 18 players varying from inexperienced to moronic (I signed up for this site a few days later )
2. About 1.4-1.5 seconds

[inspiratieloos]

Nacho is too sure of not getting lynched at the moment because of his ICness, I say we go after one of the SEs for now.

Mist, why would you even suggest that a cop claims on D1? Either he'll die or he'll get roleblocked and we lose all his usefulness for the game. Unless we just happen to have setup 1 and just happen to lynch the roleblocker. What good is knowing the setup when your power roles are dead/useless? Especially since the mafia will already know the exact setup when the cop claims.
Then you say you wanted to kill him while you claim that you thought he would die N1 anyway setting us all up for WIFOM, you also say you have experience playing this game...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mist

[inspiratieloos]

I don't really see anything that suspicious right now, Les Guilelessers vote is strange, but more in a VI than scummy way.
Escho and Hazard have been too quiet, but Hazard promises to be better and Escho is away for now.

And UNVOTE: Mist for now, I'm not sure who to vote at the moment.

[inspiratieloos]

1. Believe it or not, IRL I am one of those people that prefer to keep a low profile. However in this game you have to get other people to post, preferably making statements that can later be used to question them further, expect others to do the same to you. If someone doesn't post they can never be caught in a lie, thus scum like to not post a lot, thus making silent town look scummy.
Personally, I look at a player and then see if they did anything that can be explained as scummy, then point it out. This has the dual advantage of making you look scumhunting town and of their response providing more information for the town. Win/Win if you're town Win/Lose if you're scum (which is again why people might think you scum if you don't). Just try to find something no one has pointed out jet and ask the person that posted it about it. (Perry too btw)

2/3. All of those statements mean nothing, the first is something anyone would say be it vanilla town, powerrole or scum. Dysorder really doesn't show you being town side by unvoting his random vote, the chance of everyone being scum is 1/4 from the perspective of any town which again doesn't say anything.

4. Even if you feel that and even if it is correct, the cop has just as much information as you do so following them at this point won't do any good, if they start strongly accusing someone D2 go for it.

5. If you don't post you get prodded, I really don't see the problem with that. As long as you make it online in 48 hours nothing happens.

In this post you don't really add anything to the town, you claim very loudly that you're town while not under that much pressure (no one is even voting you) and you suddenly seem to think dysorder is your bestest friend whilst putting a vote on him 10 posts ago and without him doing anything except removing his RVS vote. This is not the way to convince us.

[inspiratieloos]

Try to pick someone and look at what they said until you find something that might indicate that they're scum (pick me if you want ). It'll cause people to explain their reasoning which gives everyone a better read and you might just find something that others missed that is a real scum tell.

[inspiratieloos]

On post #89 by Nacho:

#76 is a big post with no vote. Don't kill this town read I have on you...

I did consider voting him, but seeing Les' behaviour before I thought it more likely to get a meaningful response if I didn't put a vote with that post...

What's the difference between the scum strange and the VI strange, in your opinion?

VI strange: He does something weird, but it's just completely useless. While it obviously isn't town a (competent) scum wouldn't do it either because it just doesn't profit them in any way. (posts 65 and 67, the dysorder vote)
Scum strange: This post is either anti-town or useless but with a mafia much more likely to want to post it and have it believed (post 75).

Les, if you don't adequately respond to my post 76 and the other posts against you, I will be voting you.

Perry, it might be possible that you really can't get access to a computer for more than 2 minutes to post excuses, but I start having trouble suspending my disbelief (and I read a lot of very bad fiction).

[inspiratieloos]

@ Escho, mist is getting off easy for now because Les is taking up all the attention.

@Les, I don't actually know that well how to go about defending ones self in the situation you are in, but I can say that just saying that you're town doesn't help.

The only reason you aren't dead yet is because we actually already know that you might just be newb town, there are at least 3 people that aren't voting you for the sole reason that we don't want to put you at L-1 this soon in the day.

Look at it like this: You get to choose one player, (s)he dies and the laws of the universe will bend to make sure that person is and has always been town. I think at least 6 people here would answer with Les Guilelesser, because you haven't been adding anything useful to the discussion

I want to complete my post; my message is - Mist is on our side. Don't you see, gentelmen, her natural cry out of her young unspoiled by bad guys heart;'lLynch him, lynch, he is maf and a lieer". Yes, It was so natural from her, it iwas from the very bottom of Mists's heart.

This is

slightly

better, can you expand on your reasons why you think mist is town?
Personally I thought it was a null tell, maybe a bit more scum than town, because it contains a ready made excuse when the lynchee flips town ("I got overexcited").
Also explain why Nacho is town and how that makes Kcda scum. If you can support your opinions with decent arguments we might just decide it could be useful to keep you around.

[inspiratieloos]

Les, if you don't adequately respond to my post 76 and the other posts against you, I will be voting you.

But, I will say that I'm not interested in Les's lynch just yet. The day is still young yet, and I fear we may be losing a lot of information due to the language barrier.

fair warning though: those last two statement earned a

FOS: les

..

now to me, this is kinda scummish i kinda agree with kcdaspot on the fos. again he could just be new but i could be wrong. ive seen people play the newbie card pretty well and not be newbie. i dont really want to vote putting him L-1, so ill hold off so we can at least have more info

Yes, there are people that suspect you but just not want to lynch you just yet. (also note that kcda is probably still your biggest supporter)

That's right. I can't but agree with you here. I haven't been putting anything of value to the

discussion

.

which makes you:
1) useless
2) a liability
3) probably scum

I believe the discussion will go the right way only after the 1-st night when the Doc and the Cop (providing they are alive) have made their checks.

If we don't have a doc or cop should we no lynch day 2, 3, 4 and 5 too? [/sarcasm]

No I am not going to support my opinion with arguments on Nacho and Kcda fpr you now. This is my right and my choice.

I am declaring you a lost cause, that is my right and my choice.

@everyone else, if/when he gets lynched can I hammer as compensation for the time lost in trying to get him to save himself?

*starts looking for other scum

[inspiratieloos]

We lynch Les now, we lose the rest of the day. I agree that he should be lynched, I'm just waiting.

Mist, you first said that you had a slight scumread on Les, then a few hours later you said "Lynch him. LYNCH HIM NOW!!" based on the same post. What happened and why did you want him to die immediately? Earlier you were also voting Nacho while you said you knew that ICs get lynched often (Escho also pointed this out)

Hazard, you have been very quiet and haven't posted much content the only things you did were RVSing Nacho, unvoting and voting Les after everyone else already pointed out his behaviour. Contentwise you aren't that far above Perry and he has the excuse of being new.

[inspiratieloos]

EBWOP: Escho, why are you still voting Nacho?

[inspiratieloos]

The thing is Les is obvious, but I have no other scumreads at all. I want to have some idea who to vote D2. So Hazard, who do you think is Les' scumbuddy?

[inspiratieloos]

While typing post 133 I decided to ignore Les until the end of this day (and his participation in this game) anyway, if he doesn't say anything for the rest of the game I'm okay with that. It is just that some other people haven't really posted that much, which was mostly ignored due to Les. Since page 3 there have been about 5 useful posts that don't have to do with him.

btw, love the way you shortened my name

[inspiratieloos]

I see that trying to get some more information that doesn't have to do with Les is going to fail...
Question: Is there any reason for me not to hammer Les once someone puts him at L-1 (yes, I'm vindictive )

I really shouldn't do this... Les I'm not 100% sure you are scum, more like 90% (I have however already decided to try and get you policy lynched if we ever play again together if you flip town), but more than 25% is good enough for a lynch D1 so:......No.....Must.....Save.....To.....Hammer....

On mist: She could be your scumbuddy and after reading others comments decided that you were going to die and that the best course of action was to bus you. You could be town and she could have decided you were an easy lynch. She could also be town with an innocuous reason for being 'outraged' while she apparently had read the same things before and had already responded neutrally on it. But I'm never going to find out if I don't ask.

btw, where did Nacho go?

[inspiratieloos]

If Les is scum I'm definitely not his scumbuddy, I hope that's obvious. If he is town and I were scum I would have voted him at post 76 and if not then definitely post 133. After it looked like he finally might start doing something productive after a lot of prodding, but then decided that his opinions were worth more without argumentation.

I wont quickhammer anyone, but I do want to be the one to hammer him. I can understand someone having a hard time understanding the game or just being bad at it, but he seems to be unwilling to learn and that annoys me personally. (I admit that saying I wanted to hammer him probably wasn't the smart thing to do, but I did say it and now I'm going to do it too)

Nacho seems to be the only one that can ignore all of this and keep looking at the other players (I'm not doing it myself either) if we don't lynch him (Les) today that is going to continue. Besides that, he is easily the most scummy.

Oh and Les for the record: Mist is apparently 13 years old... that last comment was creepy...

[inspiratieloos]

He didn't vote himself, he made a mistake when quoting Les. But better unvote just to be sure

[inspiratieloos]

Perry, what information do you think your death will provide? I don't really see it... well maybe Nacho being scum if you flip town, but even that's a stretch. Just accepting your death isn't going to help your team in any case, please don't do that.

Nacho and kcda, you've been going off on Perry for not posting content, have you looked at Hazards posts? I think Perry has posted more content in total than him, although his content to post ratio is a lot lower so the lack gets noticed. Although I really don't like the fatalistic attitude.

I guess my wish from #139 came true... but now I have too much potential mafia.

[inspiratieloos]

@mist But why would kcda be an easy lynch? Also, he could have easily pushed the Les wagon, so that isn't the reason to switch votes. Dysorders theory of keeping the lunatic alive is more likely than that.

Then again, maybe he did think Les would be an easy lynch, then realised that Les is more pro-scum than pro-town and went for Perry, then realising that he doesn't have enough support try for kcda> applying Occams Razor> For now I say that his behaviour isn't necessarily scummy.
I think maf!Nacho going for an easy lynch would have tried for a case on mist, she has the most individual posts that can be used against her.

I'd really like to hear some more from Escho, apart from putting some suspicion on mist and some participation in Les bashing he hasn't really done anything.

[inspiratieloos]

My reads for now:
Mist7676: null-scum, I thought her comment about cop claiming was very scummy, but multiple people pointed out that that wasn't actually that illogical somehow when coming from EM (@Escho: That was the reason I unvoted). Aside from that there was the voting Nacho thing and I didn't like the fact that she went from slight scum to must die on Les without even one post from him in between. She has been more productive than quite some other people, so I'm not sure.

dysorder: probably town, almost all his posts add something to the discussion and I couldn't really point to anything that makes him scummy.

Les Guilelesser: confused, I was pretty certain that he was scum, but then Nacho and kcda started defending him and now I don't know what to think any more. If we get close to deadline and I don't have any other good targets I think I'll vote him because he has the least value to town.

Escho: null/null-town, gets some scum points for not posting even outside V/LA. The posts he did make read slight town.

Hazard with a Glove: null-scum, all his posts are very short without much content, he also switches votes quite often. If he has good reasons he should explain them more.

Kcdaspot: probably town, he is actively scum hunting and nothing to point to him being scummy for me.

Perry -_-: null, he didn't do very much at first, then came the whole phone business (note: all his comments about not posting due to his phone are centred on one day, march 4th), him wanting to die is anti-wincon whether he is town or scum. His other posts aren't great, but he seems to be trying.

Nachomamma8: null-town/prob-town, makes very clear arguments and posts pro-town, his switching votes could be scummy, but I think it's most likely to get information.

So in order of townieness:
dysorder
kcda
Nacho
Escho
Perry
Hazard/Mist
Not really sure where to place Les, lower than Escho at least.

Also at the last two posts (Mist and Kcda)

[inspiratieloos]

Mist, the thing about your voting Les was because the only post from him between you saying slight scum and you saying major scum is him asking a pretty normal newb question (one of the few non-scummy posts from him during that time) you had already responded in a mild manner to the post you later decided he was scum on.

I really want to see reads from Hazard right about now. Anyone else who hasn't posted those already would be nice too .

Escho losing interest in the game does explain the lack of posts.

@mod: Suppose player A is at n+1 and B is at n and someone unvotes A, then we reach deadline. Does A die or B? (A seems more logical, but the wording might mean B)

I had some more to say, but I need sleep now, more tomorrow.

[inspiratieloos]

Now it's a lynch between 2 people that I find town... and Hazard...VOTE: Hazard with a Glove

I might be convinced to vote Kcda if it becomes necessary to get a lynch, but I'm not going to support lynching Nacho today.
Mist, very convenient V/LA, now we lose your vote if we don't want to kill Nacho (The IC that I happen find townie) also what does MFW mean?

Nacho, how convinced are you that Hazard is town?

@Zach: It was, apparently Jason made a mistake when originally writing the rules.

[inspiratieloos]

.............

why is this game so dead?

4 words: Hazard, Perry, Escho, Les

Escho has been replaced by zach, who looks to be at least semi-competent, so it might get better...

[inspiratieloos]

all right, no time right now but those i did read, i couldnt really get anything that wasnt already covered earlier

You should still say it, 'has already been covered' only works for the specific arguments and then only if it has already been thoroughly discussed. We need to know what you think about all of us and also why. At the very least put everyone in a category: town, neutral, scum (most people use more). Is it really that hard to look at what the others do and filling in your own thoughts?

Oh and please stop posting excuses, it serves no purpose at all, except to put more attention on yourself...

[inspiratieloos]

Preferably you not saying that you will be posting something and instead just doing it...
Building a post takes time, I usually take at least fifteen minutes, usually more, to make a post (sometimes as much as an hour). from your comments I figure that you are on for like two minutes at a time at most, maybe you should ask for a replacement and try to play another game when you have more time, or just look for a different game to play that is less time intensive

[inspiratieloos]

L-1

The next person, state your intent and give him a chance to respond before voting.

[inspiratieloos]

Mist, why do you want the IC (not Nacho) specifically to die? It seems to me like you want to get rid of the role, not the person. Does town have any reason to want the most experienced player dead?

Also, everyone who hasn't already done so, please post reads, especially Hazard.

[inspiratieloos]

Hazard could you at least post some opinions before you die? And post a serious claim?
If you are scum self-hammering is a viable tactic you know... If you are town, at least try to defend yourself.

[inspiratieloos]

He'd be confirmed scum with his supposed suicidal pacifism...

[inspiratieloos]

Giving him some more time to produce content doesn't cost us anything.

Mist: If Les hammers Hazard and Hazard flips town I don't think D2 will last more than 48 hours

[inspiratieloos]

@Perry: He hopes he was right and Hazard is mafia, however certain you are that someone is scum D1 you're never going to get far above say 30-40%. To flip scum/town means that on a role reveal it is confirmed that you are scum/town (in the RL game you have a card with your role and when you die you flip it to show what you were).

@Les: Are you trolling???

@Mist: I bow to you...

@Hazard: It isn't to late to post a list of who you think is scum/town. Twilight posting is allowed I believe

[inspiratieloos]

For the record, you do realise that Mists post was sarcasm with an underlying tone of "He wouldn't be

that

stupid" right?

I know that I didn't agree with mist on her post because I thought that...
Because if Hazard flips town you will have hammered:
1. a townie
2. without even giving a hint you would do so
3. which is completely OOC for the character you've built up so far
4. while not even everyone has responded to the merit of Hazards lynch (namely Nacho)

I'd be joining kcda's mantra if I were you and even if he flips scum points 2-4 still stand, Hazard

was

a dead man walking.

[inspiratieloos]

Well i see no good reason to kill off a replacment. Mafia doesnt even know if he is good or not and should have gotten rid of the better players like inspire.

Zach is just as experienced as Nacho (I don't know if he's actually good, but I suspect so). If I were maf I'd have killed him or Nacho before me. And him going for kcda makes him an even better target for everyone (Maf!kcda gets rid of a direct opponent, Maf!everyone-else puts attention on kcda)

Oh and btw I think Kcda voted you for role-fishing... again.

that said VOTE: Les Guilelesser
You completely dropped your act when you voted Hazard. You built up this persona of a complete moron that doesn't want to kill anyone without evidence and only cast votes on people that were in no danger of lynching anyway. Then out of the blue you suddenly decide to hammer Hazard, I thought Hazard was very scummy, so at that point I thought you were probably scum bussing your partner to get some town-cred... then he flipped town.

The way you voted Hazard would've been scummy for everyone, but combined with your comments and play-style before that it makes you scum in my book.

[inspiratieloos]

1a. Probably
1b. Indeed... Well by the end he'd probably have been lynched but his death would have been more useful.
2. No you aren't. Simple logic dictates that we vote kcda, this game usually isn't won by only simple logic... I voted Hazard because of the deadline, then after the deadline got moved he acted so scummy I saw no reason to unvote/vote someone else. If you are lynched you'll flip scum, making me look town.
3. Of course they love you, you are one... btw did you realise Zach was IC from the start, or only after I pointed it out? And if you trust the ICs so much why did you vote Hazard while they were both on kcda?
4. Still no proof that they are there... Are you or your buddy roleblocker so you know that they're both in the game if they are here?
5. What happened to 'Mist is town, kill me instead'?
6. It's not mutual...

[inspiratieloos]

I am NOT the doc, if you are town you should not speculate as to who the doc/cop is, that is what we have scum for (hey guys, look at what Les is doing ).

btw you already asked whether roles are revealed on death...

[nitpicking] Jason you forgot a 1 after dysorder. [/nitpicking]

mod note: Bah, stupid copy/paste errors

[inspiratieloos]

Oh and les, there could be the setup with no cop or doc

Thank you, PeRrY, for this information. I didn't know.

*tactical facepalm*

You say you want to help the cop/doc, why are you looking for them and not for the scum?

[inspiratieloos]

EBWOP: Dysorder, I find it very hard to respond to your last big post, (of course it's mostly pointed at kcda). A lot of your post is defence which it is hard to respond to apart from "hey, it's only defence". There is only one specific question in your post and that is whether his vote is only OMGUS, what do you want him to answer to that? What exactly do you want to know from him (or others)?

Also option 3: Kcda killed Zach, knowing that we would think he'd be stupid to do that and thus conclude it was someone else trying to frame him. (there is also option 4, 5, 6, etc. applying circular reasoning)

@Nacho: Lurking IC=bad

@kcda: Do you have more on Dysorder? I think his votes are all reasonable enough, the vote on Nacho jumps out a bit, but the reasoning is better than some I've seen here.

[inspiratieloos]

So, you're saying that kcda's biggest detractor dying makes him confirmed town...

[inspiratieloos]

The last time I said someone wouldn't be that stupid Hazard got lynched...

In any case Maf!kcda killing Zach wouldn't be stupid, the response so far was perfectly predictable.

[inspiratieloos]

Proposal: Everyone posts reads, those that don't get lynched *cough* Perry *cough* Les * cough*

@Mist: What's up with your sig and all?

[inspiratieloos]

Should have threatened those two ages ago...

Mist: null-town, overall she has been playing a pro-town game, with some random things that were scummy, apparently she is known to always do that. She stated that she would never hammer Hazard even though at that point she could have easily defended it if she hammered him near deadline. The paranoid part of me notes that she could have been coaching scumbuddy Les to hammer Hazard, with the way he followed her 'joke reasoning' exactly. (with her facepalming while reading it)

Dysorder: null-town, he isn't doing much scumhunting, but there isn't really any scum play on his part. On the other hand that isn't really necessary with all the distractions by others.

Les: prob-scum He has been playing almost completely passively for most of D1, then he hammers Hazard especially since Mist and I were joking around about how idiotic that would be. There is not a single thought process I can think of leading to a town player to do something like that in the same situation. Les's stupidity is a lie, lynch all liars.

Kcda: null/null-scum, my gut says town, but he did lead a bandwagon on a townie and Zach got NK'd. Also he has now said that he wants to vote Les twice and both times he isn't doing it. Scumbuddy? I should probably put him more in my scum-list, but I have that gut feeling that he's town...

Perry: null-town, he actually posted some reads, that would've been useful D1. He is a bit annoying with the constant excuses, but when he does posts something else it's usually decent. noob-town I think.

Nacho: He read town to me, but now he is inactive, I'll see what the replacement does.

Apart from Les I don't have any very good scum-reads, apart from Nacho I don't have any good town-reads, most people could go either way.

[inspiratieloos]

EBWOP: Welcome Uncle Pain. Hopefully we'll get some new things to go on now.

I took a look at your account, is this your first game in a while?

[inspiratieloos]

kcda: The original case was weak, the thing that made it credible was Hazards response when he was already at L-1

[inspiratieloos]

^^^ *facepalm*

Mist: I don't think Nacho would replace out just because he is losing he is supposed to give us the good example (not that being replaced is a good thing in any case), Les might. Les is also a newb and it is pretty clear that this is not the right game for him (if he was indeed VI and not playacting scum). I'd be looking at the newbie queue if I were you. If he is just a sore loser he would be getting into a new game in not to much time I think. If he was town I hope he did the smart thing and decided to quit.

Welcome GMan, it looks like you spent >3 hours catching up and posting useful content, respect. You do put me for a problem though. I truly think that Les and thus you are scum, but you can hardly be expected to defend yourself from whatever logic Les was using...
You do make some valid points about kcda. I can now see what Mist meant at the start, I have a hard time finding games in which he is town, especially where he is asked for reads...

[inspiratieloos]

My vote stands for now, GMan has a lot to make up for.

When did I say that Les is 90% scum, I'm pretty sure I never did because I don't use percentages (they're confusing imo), I also never said it isn't enough to hammer him afaik. Are you sure that isn't from someone else? What I meant: If the choice becomes lynch kcda or no lynch, I choose to lynch kcda, while if the choice becomes lynch Nacho/no lynch I think I'd have gone for no lynch. My opinions had changed at that point and he was 4th in the list, but lynches on Perry, Mist or Les weren't feasible at that point (deadline was <30hours when I said that).

I think those are good questions, I have some comments about some of them but I'll wait with that until the others have responded.

[inspiratieloos]

LOL...

I said that 11 pages ago, basically everyone has pointed to it at some point. You did it yourself in your earlier reads. Uncle gets to do it because he replaced and is pointing out everyone's scummy/stupid actions. But for you to suddenly call me scummy for

that

makes no sense. You've got to have something more Mist... (50/50 means slightly scummy and 30/70 means null right?)

Hopefully Perry posts some content.

[inspiratieloos]

Welcome Stefunny.

More intriguing about inspira's #155 is his "I have however already decided to try and get you policy lynched if we ever play again together if you flip town" comment.

Clearly, you're ok with a policy lynch as a town move. I'm curious; when kcda was pushing for Hazard's lynch based on his desire to policy lynch Les why was there never a mention that this wasn't necessarily scummy?

People that are

that

wilfully ignorant don't belong in this game imo. I could accept it if he was scum trying to have everyone get a VI-town read on him by acting like an idiot, in which case he would still have to be lynched this game. Also I got very frustrated at that point and said multiple stupid things (I

hate

wilful ignorance). Dysorder and I are noobs, Perry was an absolute noob, Hazard and Mist have bouts of noobishness, but Les was in a category all of his own.

Inspira, I just get this big giant null feeling from you. It's like a void. A HUGE VOID. I can't decide how I feel about you. Your interaction with les was weird. You were going to ignore him and then you want to Policy lynch him and then you WANT to be the hammer, but not the vote that gets him to L-1, and THEN he's NOT scum because KC and Nacho were defending him? And then he was scum again. Help me out dude. I'm confused.

The policy lynch comment was for if I ever saw him again on the off chance that he is/was town in this game. I should have just put him at L-1 at that point, no fuss (see above). I never was convinced that he was town, but both kcda and Nacho specifically said they thought he wasn't scum, at that point I had both of them as town reads and both are much more experienced players and if three people say something at least one of them has to be genuine. This was enough to give him the benefit of the doubt for then. The Hazard hammer got him right back to total scum.

On a more positive note: Now the both Les and Perry are gone we'll only have to deal with 'normal' scummy play
On a slightly less positive note: Now I don't have the excuse that whatever I do Les and Perry are worse...

[inspiratieloos]

You say that you are not convinced, do you mean that you think he is more town or just the normal 'anyone could always be town/scum no matter what their behaviour'? If the first, who do you think is scum instead? Waiting for a response should be done in any case, no matter how scummy someone is.

Kcda, I see that you've been on mafiascum both today and yesterday, why haven't you responded to the L-1 yet?

[inspiratieloos]

Mist, there are still open questions, I'd wait with the hammer.

I think this is relevant for Kcda attacking me for getting on the Hazard wagon:
Uncle pain: The list of numbers you linked to assumes a night start, in a day start it is exactly the opposite.
I calculated our situation myself:
Our chance to win normally assuming no PRs and random lynchings/NKs gives us a 29.8% to win (mafia 70.2%)
If we'd no-lynched D1 and then no-lynch again in MYLO our chance would have been 21.1% (mafia 78.9%), which is almost 1/3 lower.
At this moment we have a 22.9% chance, which is actually

higher

than if we hadn't lynched Hazard
Had you suggested this D1 I'd have called it pretty scummy or maybe a cop tell, because that is the only reason I can think of for town suggesting no-lynch D1. Possibly making a good situation better, while making a bad situation worse is not a good gamble.
Seeing as this is D2 it doesn't say anything about you, but it does prove my point that doing my best to get

a

lynch was a good call (in hindsight anyone can agree that lynching a townie is bad)

Kcda, I don't see how keeping my vote on GMan is scummy, he is in no danger of being lynched at this point (I did read somewhere that you should always keep a vote up starting D2 unless in M/LYLO). My best alternative at this point would be you, but I think some people would be put out with me if I did that now.
I did consider putting a vote without unvoting first to see what the reactions would be... Luckily I re-checked the rules before doing that

Also I use five basic gradations in my reads prob-town, null-town, null, null-scum, prob-scum so my reads aren't as indecisive as they might have appeared to you (sorry for any misunderstandings)

[inspiratieloos]

I looked it up, I read that in newbie 1035, it was said by Debonair Danny DePietro (the IC), he was town. I thought what he said was only about D2 and further, but it was actually about the whole game. I agree with his arguments. Kcda is the person I'd vote if unvoting GMan, I think it's obvious why I'm not doing that at this moment.

UP: retraction accepted. I do wonder what the world has come to when a first time player of a game has to explain the math of said game to the player that is supposed to show him the ropes .
On your side note, I thought Nacho was probably town and you have done nothing to disabuse me of that notion, I find it very hard to imagine you as kcda's scumbuddy.

Kcda: The original thing we all wanted to know was why you lynched Hazard, did I miss something or have you been avoiding that question? You attacked me for my reads (okay, miscommunication, plausible), when I explained you kept attacking me. Did you notice the fact that Mist uses 9 gradations and that her reads are basically the same on the amount of "nulls"? I already thought that your attacks in post 487 were grasping at straws, this reinforces it.
Another thing, in your D1 reads you said on me little voting activity going on, now you accuse me of vote hopping and following wagons... I was on one wagon,

yours

, under pressure of deadline.

[inspiratieloos]

Now that Kcda has flipped scum I have two strong town reads, Mist and Uncle Pain.
UP replaced Nacho, Nacho was pushing for lynching kcda D1, I don't think it would have been wise to attack his partner like that in that situation. We were close to deadline which means that not much would've needed to happen for the wagon to change to him (I basically said as much before), with not much town credit to be had for the people on the wagon. Then D2 Nacho continued attacking kcda, when UP replaced Nacho he immediately continued this attack, it seems unlikely to me that he would follow the exact same strategy without hesitation (mafia can only talk at night so he couldn't have agreed to this beforehand because he replaced during the day) , which really doesn't seem necessary. Besides that, both of them read town to me the entire game.

I think Mist is town for mostly the same reason, her play isn't as clearly town as Uncle Pain's. Hammering kcda doesn't really say much, because if she hadn't I would have a few days later, it didn't look like any of the others were unvoting anytime soon. What does speak strongly for her is, again D1, she said she wouldn't hammer Hazard, this would have been very stupid for mafia. Nacho's lynch wasn't going to go anywhere, so the only one left was kcda, at that point Hazard had 4 votes, kcda 2 and Nacho 1. With Mist, Nacho and Zach saying they weren't going to hammer Hazard the only one left was Les, who looking at his past play shouldn't have been expected to hammer anyone. Thus the Hazard BW would have failed, making the kcda one the most likely. This could have happened in a very short time, thus, due that one comment, kcda might have gotten lynched with almost no credit at all going to Mist for it.
Incidentally the situation above is why I found Les' hammer so incredibly scummy, especially with kcda calling him town and then flipping scum himself.

Stefunny and Dysorder are left, Stefunny came in and immediately went for kcda, he needed 2 more votes at that time, Stefunny voting certainly sped up the process, but I think that kcda would have died anyway. Then we have Dysorder, he looks good for it just by process of elimination. He was the least active during the kcda wagon and looking at kcda's behaviour his response to Dysorder was the most unique. He consistently attacked Hazard and Perry (but not Stefunny), me and Mist were null-town until he came under pressure and we became scum, Escho/Zach and Nacho/UP were town and LEs/Gman was town-but-he-is-so-scummy-I-might-vote-him (but we now know he was town). On Dysorder he was going between slight-scum and slight-town the whole time, this could very well be scum not wanting to speak out on their partner too much in case either of them goes down. His vote on Dys D2 didn't really do anything. What I don't see is why Dys would kill GMan, had Stefunny or Uncle Pain died it would have been pretty easy to predict what I would have done, Dys could have just followed me citing inexperience as his reason to follow which would mean only 1 more vote would be needed (Mist?), after GMan flipped town he could just watch how whoever was left would immediately go for me for getting Gman lynched and then hammer for the win. Stefunny couldn't have done this thus would have more reason to kill Gman.

I think it's either of these two, but I'm not sure which one, Dys looks better for it, but I see no reason why he would kill GMan. Then again the N1 kill showed that these scum don't fear mind-games.

[inspiratieloos]

EBWOP
@Mist: I voted Les, when GMan replaced I saw no immediate reason to unvote, I was considering switching to Kcda, but then Stefunny put him at L-1 so I kept my vote on him.

@UP: Dys and Stef haven't posted yet so

theoretically

it might still be possible to get a non-fake copclaim for a instant town win

[inspiratieloos]

Dysorder, Uncle Pain and Stefunny, you all say you think that Mist might be the scum, what explanation do you have for this post?

Nah i was just messing around but to me he is really scummy I don't see any point in lynching Hwag. I don't think he is scum but meh thats ur problem.

But for sure im not hammering.

For me, this is the most important reason that Mist is town, I see no reason for Maf!Mist to post this.
The rest of your points are valid I think.

Stefunny, I think you are letting Dysorder off the hook way too easily. His attack on Mist is valid, but I don't see how his defence in any way clears him.

Mist, look at peoples profiles before calling them female, thank you.

Uncle Pain, you noticed Kcda's compliment on Mist's reads. I did too. He doesn't compliment the content, just the way she presented it. This compliment really wasn't going to mean anything to the rest of us, but I'd think that if Kcda was scum he'd want to get into Mist's good graces because she seems to have an inclination to think he is scum. More likely to be buddying to a townie than scumpartner doing... what exactly?

[inspiratieloos]

So... you're not sure whether I'm a good player or a bad player pretending to be a good player?

Question: (Dysorder) Did you

honestly

expect Les to hammer Hazard?
Because the other players in the game (Nacho, Zach and Hazard himself) were all opposed to the Hazard lynch. With Mist and Les that makes 5. After that comment from Mist the Hazard lynch was a fluke (from Mist's point of view). If I made that comment in that situation I'd be fully aware that it would probably lead to Kcda getting lynched (with a small chance of no-lynch or Hazard lynch) and I prefer to assume that everyone is at least somewhat competent (and that Mist wouldn't take such a low gain-high risk gamble).

Or is it just that I'm the only one who really didn't see that hammer coming...

[inspiratieloos]

Stefunny: You put a vote on Mist implying that it is a pressure vote. You do realise that you're putting her at L-1 right?

UP: You make a fair point, I think the thing with her reads is that she changes her opinion on people very quickly, making the differences between the reads themselves seem arbitrary. Let's see what Mist has to say.

Mist, everyone is waiting for you now

Also, I thought that distancing was attacking your partner, not ignoring them?

[inspiratieloos]

I had exams the last weeks

Then please explain to us why you can't be scum. What did you do that you wouldn't have done if you were mafia. Why are there those differences in your reads? How were they not arbitrary, or if they were why should we think that you are not scum because of it? I really shouldn't have to explain this to you...

These accusations are good enough reason to lynch you so I'm going to repeat what I told Hazard D1:

If you are scum self-hammering is a viable tactic you know... If you are town, at least try to defend yourself.

Okay, not so much the self-hammering being viable (although it would save all of us a lot of trouble ), but at least post a semblance of a defence.

Also who do you think is the most likely to be scum and why? I'm apparently null, did you think I was scum or town before?

[inspiratieloos]

You imply that you are not VT? Claim now!

[inspiratieloos]

To me this looks like you have given up, I'm still not entirely decided if this makes you more town or scum. I'd like to know what the others think about this.

[inspiratieloos]

*happy dance*

Jason, thanks for modding.
But did you have to lock the thread? I was checking every two minutes while I'm supposed to do homework

Everyone else: Thanks for playing.
Mist, now I do want to know, why did you refuse to hammer Hazard D1? (I do realise that I probably overanalysed the situation )

Note to self: Whenever you have a gut feeling someone is town, they are scum

[inspiratieloos]

It was just the timing, It's 11 PM here and I'm only halfway through my homework and I need to get up at 6 tomorrow... Then I saw that the thread was locked and couldn't help myself.

Also two <10 minute twilights in one game, are you psychic?

[inspiratieloos]

I think you did very well Jason.

I felt the same way about Zach, start of D2 I was sure there was no doc.

[inspiratieloos]

What I did find interesting is that most people thought I was town... I was kind of expecting getting lynched D3, because I was on the wrong end of both the D1 and D2 lynch. I was really worrying about how I should defend myself against that and then found out that no one was accusing me

[inspiratieloos]

With Mist's last move she pulls out a gun from her back pocket a shoots Uncle Pain, Dysorder, and SteFunny with 3 perfect shots.

Hmmmm.... You forgot someone.
*sneaks around, grabs the gun left by Kcda and shoots Mist* Town win