Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[Drench]

Verifying lynch.

[Drench]

The Seventeenth Vote Count - oh.

theplague42
Neuky
Mute - 4 - Workdawg, theplague42, Sundy, sordros
Workdawg
Sundy
sordros
Concerned

Not Voting - 3 - Concerned, Mute, Neuky

Flavor text! Now with real flavor!

Mute, Town Vanilla, Lynched Day Two

It is now Night. Any actions may now be sent. Day Three will commence in 72 hours.

[Drench]

And like a True Boss, I've forgotten to change the header. Night will now end 48 hours from this post, just in case.

[Drench]

Another day, another dollar!

theplague42, Town Doctor, Killed Night Two

It is now Day Three. With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch!

Deadline is set for 12:22pm on the 20th of March, AEDST. That's 8:22pm on the 19th in EST.

[theplague42]

Bah humbug.

[Drench]

A reminder of Rule 14:

14. Once you are dead, you may no longer post. However, you are allowed to make a single post containing as many F's as you like up to fifty, followed by any number of U's up to fifty. You may use capitalization as desired.

[Concerned]

I don't see why we shouldn't just lynch sordos right now.
He's certainly not worth bringing into lylo.

[Neuky]

Now we know Mute was town, I'm going to re-examine Stels' comments on the remaining 3 slots from Mute's wagon.

In the meantime:

Ok, I think this game needs is a little more energy. Considering we lynched scum day 1, we have the luxury to be a little reckless.
In the hopes of re-activating this game, I'm ready to jump to my next scum candidate and jump-start this game again.
VOTE: Mute
I bet we will have plenty of discussion from here on.

OK, how do you think hammering a townie before he got the chance to post his suspicions and cases would re-activate the game? Being intentionally reckless - pro or anti-town?

[Workdawg]

I agree that Sordros seems like the most likely target at this point, but I have to say... Concerned's willingness to lynch him immediately is bit off-putting.

[Neuky]

Dawg, while his comment surprised me a bit, I don't think it's the scummiest post recently, do you? What's your take on Concerned, and also on Sordros' hammer?

[Workdawg]

@Neuky

Concerned would be my number 2 choice, but sordros' suspiciousness exceeds his by a wide margin. He's the only one who's commented on specific things I've said while scumhunting (because I asked him to) and he pretty much tore me apart. I see his logic, but it's tainted by the fact that I asked him to analyze my case against his slot. I'm inclined to think he's right about my failure at scum hunting, but I can't be 100% sure because he could just be defending himself.

Going back over the naben/veridis/sordros slot... they've really contributed very little to the game. That has me very concerned.

[sordros]

May I remind you guys that I was the last one to vote for Mute? And that was after quite a long time had passed too. Why would anyone vote for someone if they didn't think they were not scum? So I was not the one to lynch a townie, the majority did.

My point is. Most of us thought Mute was a good scum candidate, now we know we missed. It is just fare to jump to the next candidate. In my case it would be Concerned. He has done nothing but OMGUS me all the time.

So I hear from you guys that I'm in your next lynch list. May I ask why? Because I haven't contributed much? I just don't see a point in reiterating the already prolonged walls of words that are in the game. I think I have stated my views and suspicions, if anyone needs more detail they have but to ask.

[Concerned]

You prematurely hammered a player who had not replied to various comments who who I at least was still waiting a defense..
You hammered said player for very little solid reasoning, no I take that back. You never gave any reason for hammering mute. None. You never said why you thought he was scummy, you just hammered him. You spent what little activity you did contribute going on about an insignificant RvS comment about my slot and then you conveniently decide to hammer mute.

Now it is possible that Neuky, Dawg or Sundy are scum, I have a solid town read on all but the last one of them, but it is possible. I just can't see myself lynching any one of them today. If I'm wrong about you being scum (and I really don't think I am) I will reevaluate with the the last 2 players in lylo, assuming I get there, but I don't see myself lynching anyone else today.

[Neuky]

Now we know Mute was town, I've been looking at Stels' comments on the remaining 3 players from Mute's wagon: My main interest here is on Sundy and sordros as they are the newest players. (Stels' comments on Dawg are sufficiently covered throughout this thread).

This post is covering the

Sundy

(Semi-Experienced)

asano234 Angry Scientist

slot.

Stels said in his early ISO post that Angry Scientist had a

"Townish vibe"

- despite tunneling TP42, who we now know was town. He also stated that Asano only posted fluff and parroted opinions already out there - but called him

"Null-Tell ATM."

This actually struck me as odd, as Stels could have easily formed a harsher opinion on that slot (if it was town), knowing what he knew at the time. (As an aside, asano then goes on to vote Mute, putting him at L-1 without a warning, for a weak reason about Mute's table). He later retracts his vote using equally weak reasoning IMO. Note that TP42 picked up on this at the time:

HoS: asano.

for the unvote and the missing of key arguments about announcing, unvoting (unvoting follows in this paragraph), and for bad justification (below). Why did you take your vote off? I see no reason why you should have. If you think Mute is scum, vote him. Look at the game earlier when Angry Scientist thought that it was scummy that I didn't vote Mute because I didn't want to appear to be OMGUS'ing. Unvoting because people say something is definitely scummy behavior. I would vote on this normally, but I'll give you another newbie-break. My generosity is running out, though.

Oh and see who unvotes Mute after asano? Stels.

Stels later says this to Asano:

"@Asano234: I don't intend for you to feel less than the other people here, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone here. The fact that all you said was thanks for the welcome in more than 75% of your posts does arouse some concern towards your read. Having nothing to say? Fair enough, I often also have nothing to say, therefore I won't just sit there and try to make stuff up. Glad you at least mentioned that you don't have any input at the moment."

- Talk about kid gloves treatment. This seems a bit kind for scum to say to town.

Again here:

"Asano234: Null-read. You can't expect me to get a read on someone who posts fluff for about 80% of the time (sorry Asano234!). He has no opinion on the game so far, otherwise he would have added something to the thread. I mean, 11 pages already, may seem short, but with all the walls, I'm sure there's something that he can catch onto."

- Basically Stels has no opinion of him at all.

Nachomamma then has a go at Stels for not making an opinion about anyone in that post, so later we see:

@Asano234: 16/23 Posts are all fluff. No input for 12 pages. Jumps onto the Mute wagon for little reason, except that his reasons for voting was: 1) & 2) [To cause a reaction]. Jumps off the wagon when Mute puts a FoS onto Asano. Personally, I don't see the reaction that was made by Mute that made you jump off someone you had no read on whatsoever. Care to elaborate?

- This does seem a bit forced to me. The problem is, as scum, all Stels' posts are forced to some extent.

Stels never addressed Sundy directly due to the timing I think, as Stels had made his final post just before Sundy posted his first substantive piece here. This post has some original points in it (the point about Stels comments to TP42 about power roles), and he puts his vote on scum straight away. It is possible that he was bussing, but the pressure wasn't there for him to bus at that stage. Note his no. 2 suspect was Mute too. - Overall, using this method indicates to me the slot is neutral to scummy, but Sundy's play has definitely a more townish feel to it.

Next will be

sordros

veridis Naben

- when I get time...

[Sundy]

Hmmm .. I agree that Sordros hasn't posted a ton this game, and this is a problem for the slot. He says it is "just fare to jump onto the next candidate," which I took to mean he wasn't concerned about Concerned's quick call for a lynch (you'd think he'd react like Workdawg/Neuky. I also dont like the double negatives in his first defense. That said, I'm a little nervous about what the hammer means, because let's not forget that Mute did the same thing while innocent. @ Sordros, can you tell us more about your decision to hammer at that point?

Also need to back to investigate his claim about OMGUS from Concerned, but I'm on my phone. @Workdawg, who did you mean when you said someone tore you apart?

@Comcerned, please tell me why your vote isn't on Sordros given your concerns...

[Workdawg]

@Sundy

Concerned tore apart my case against Ty. That's tainted by the fact that it's his slot the case was against, but it his arguments make enough sense to not just write it off.

As for the current status: I'm eagerly awaiting Neuky's analysis of sordros. I tend to agree with his thoughts on Sundy. Asano seemed very newbie to me, but I'm not really sure if it was newb town or newb scum. Sundy, though, seems pretty town to me.

sordros just really hasn't done much good for the town from what I can tell.

[Neuky]

OK INCOMING!!!

The

sordros

veridis Naben

slot.

Stels on Neben:

Stels didn't mention naben in his early ISO for obvious reasons - no posts..

Stels on Veridis

Stels first comment on Veridis:

-Veridis: Null. You have to understand me, 4 posts, but he piqued my interest here. He took a curious position here, went after Ty who we have forgotten about with an sort of logical POV. Have to see more for a definite read.

- A bit vague, but I read it as he liked Veridis bringing up the idea of going after Ty again.

This I found interesting:

As for veridis, I have no idea what is going on there. I will say that I had a crazy thought about that over the weekend. What if Naben's super-late confirming was gaining time to talk with his buddy?

Do you know how absurd this whole statement is? Think about it. He was late confirming because he was talking to his scum-buddy? Really now? Let me break it down for you:
1) Scum can talk only during the confirmation stage + Night.
2) Naben did not confirm until the middle of page 4.
3) Naben can't talk to his scum-buddy because he hasn't confirmed yet.
4) Since he hasn't confirmed yet, he doesn't know what role he has been given.
5) Even if he did know his role, why would he not confirm when the game started?
6) Related to #5. If it's to dodge suspicion, how come you bring this question up? Meaning there is no point into confirming this late.
7) Scum-chat is maintained by the Mod, the mod would know when the scum are talking to each other, since he opens and closes the scum-chat, meaning that Naben would already be confirmed at the start of Day 1.

I remember thinking TP42's idea was wrong, - he even called it crazy himself, but I was surprised at the strength of Stels' comments. Now we know that Stels had a tendency to react rather emotionally/strongly when people were on track with him personally (eg. how he reacted to TP42 and myself for instance), so maybe he became very defensive when TP42 attacked veridis with his silly theory due to him being his buddy.

OK, no more comments from Stels on this slot - so, looking at:

veridis

(He had 5 posts in total)
His first post - not much to comment on except this makes me uneasy again:

"thanks for the unvote, I was scared the hammer might fall before I had a chance to catch up"

it's not for himself, it's the L-1 vote on Mute - (Stels' "just to be safe" comment had the same effect on me). It strikes me as a rather obvious attempt to sound towny.

He then leads an attack on Vy again. Now, to me this could be town attacking town, town attacking scum, or Stel's scum buddy attacking town. All I do know is that Stels supported this.

The final veridis post is interesting.
The first part is in response to criticism from Dawg about not sharing info:

veridis
Not much to go on so far, only 4 posts. I like his initial analysis of "the top three wagons" so far (and not just because he pegged me as newb instead of scum, lol). However, I don't like his excuse for posting the top three wagons instead of his top suspects (from ISO #3). He says the three wagons include 2 of his top 3. He says he doesn't want to tip off his number 2 (implying that his #1 and #3 or either myself, Mute or Ty and that #2 is someone else). My issue with this is that I don't really seem the harm in "tipping off" your suspects. As we've discussed before, information is power to town and it can only help town to tell us who he thinks is scum. If nothing else, maybe it applies a little bit of pressure to that person.

I have given you information, I've told you I'm looking at someone else. I could easily have made my 3 reads on the 3 wagons and pretended that they were the only people I was looking at. But I think I've spotted a small inconsistency in someones play and I let you guys know that. Were I to point it out now it would be a fairly weak argument. I'm hoping that it grows so I can make a proper case with it.
You don't arrest a guy for a broken tail-light if you think he might lead you to his hideout.

There is actually no answer to Dawg there at all - it's all fluff.

Secondly was this:

I may not have the authority to speak for veridis, but I think that his top suspects from #1 to #3 are in the specific order that he named his suspects, AKA Mute = #2. I may be wrong, but that's how I read his post at that time.

I put them in chronological order (I think), by "top 3 wagons" I meant the three biggest/most prominent wagons of the day.

Other players have answered for other players in this game, but the fact it was Stels answering for veridis, and veridis not sounding exactly sure about his contradiction with Stels, but not really challenging him about it just struck me as odd.

-Veridis: Null. You have to understand me, 4 posts, but he piqued my interest here. He took a curious position here, went after Ty who we have forgotten about with an sort of logical POV. Have to see more for a definite read.

As you say people just forgot Ty, they didn't retract their earlier positions, they didn't acknowledge some good arguments for why Ty was town, they just forgot. I think many of the initial criticisms of Ty still stand and the wagon was spooked by the failhammer and the thread has been distracted by the dawg/Mute bickering since.

Mentioned already under the Stel' comments bit, but worth noting that veridis seemed to see this as encouraging from Stels. That was the last post by veridis.

sordros

On to sordros then: 15 posts, but not a huge amount of info.
He posts his "Hello" message and then posts 3 hours later he has skimmed through most of the game. I think we all know out of experience with this game, that it's been a WOT/WOW nightmare thanks to a few posters! Seriously though, I remember taking three hours to cover about 2 pages of the battle between Mute and Dawg before making a post. Now, I know sordros said "skimmed" but have a look at his ISO - he does say he will go on to re-read the thread.

I have skimmed through most of it, but will need to re-read to have a better informed opinion.

But there is no evidence he did so. I read this at the time as a promise of some detailed analysis, and maybe some ISO's or opinions on the other players coming up - but it doesn't happen.

He then agrees with Sundy's "take" on Ty and Mute and votes Ty. Nothing new brought to the table though.

He attacks Mute about his table - (I'll never understand why such an issue about that table was made by the townies, although I do think scum jumped aboard the outrage wagon about it).

We get this post:

Please don't hammer before I have a chance to say anything.
My varsity internet was down the whole of yesterday but I'm going to post in 2 hours or so after lectures.
From what I remember mute didn't come across as scum to me.

Sounds good. I'd really like to hear your input.

OK - he is agreeing to let Concerned read through, who has expressed an opinion that Mute doesn't strike him as scum. He says "sounds good" which I take as an agreement.

Now we get this:

Bare with me. I'm doing a complete reread and some of you guys like to talk a lot (my predecessor included )

That's completely understandable. I had to go through it myself. Interesting to see that Mute is still not around. I'm tempted to hammer just to get the game going.

He has again vocally supported Concerned's request to "bear with" him while he does his read through ("that's understandable"). But then adds the comment that he is also tempted to hammer. This strikes me as odd - why pressurise Concerned to get his read through done? Also, where is his own investigations and opinions?

He then gets involved in a debate with Concerned, making him defend himself about the comment Ty made at the beginning of the game in RVS/RQS about Stels being scum.

Finally, he hammers Mute for no real reason other than to move the game along. We all knew Mute was struggling with RL issues to get time to put his thoughts out there. Certainly a case was never made - in fact no cases were made, no ISO's were completed, no opinions at all about any players in this game other than Mute, Ty, and Concerned. Have a look for yourselves at his ISO - he professes to have read the whole game but has no opinion about anyone other than these 3 players. That's Dawg, myself, Sundy and of course TP42 at the time, he had expressed no opinion of at all before bringing down the hammer.

VOTE: sordros

[Workdawg]

Sorry, I've been busy at work recently. I'll try to take a closer look at your case later today.

[Concerned]

I couldn't agree more with what neuky had to say, really just puts it very succinctly.

To me irregardless of all of that though the biggest thing for me is his day 2 play, he avoids voting for mute the whole day, to me blatantly avoiding a wagon he knows to be town and then hammers in desperation when it becomes apparent the mute wagon wouldn't have gotten hammered without his aid.

I also agree that stels reads are quite profound when it comes to his scum lists, as scum he knew the alignment of all the players, to me he didn't want to risk advocating his scum buddy as a "town read" as he didn't want to seem associated with his scum buddy but he didn't want to blatantly buss his partners slot either so why not give a null read.

Sordos said next to nothing about mute before hammering, he never really stated any good reason for doing so and those two things coupled with the fact that I have fairly strong town reads on the remaining players leads me to believe he is our last scum.

Someone asked me why I haven't voted - I'm perfectly happy to vote but the day was long (and still is) and I didn't see any reason to, I will say this; if I am wrong about sordos we will all regret not having a good day 3 discussion to reflect on but I won't worry about that now. I'm confident we have our man.

I'm going to let sordos have a say and then I'm gonna place my vote.

[Sundy]

I still need to review Neuky's case more thoroughly, but that will probably have to wait for tomorrow because I have some work due in the next few hours. I also want to re-read someone in ISO given what we now know about Mute...

[sordros]

All right. I was reckless I admit it. I actually stated that before I hammered. I had a scum vibe coming from Mute and considering we still had some room to get other shots at our remaining mafia slot.

I don't know what I can say at the interaction you mention between Stels and the player previously in my slot. It is all circumstancial however as I can assure you I'm town.

About me not contributing much. Well, I am just not as verbose as other players around, which by the way, as you mentioned, this game has been full of WoWs. The only reason I could say I had skimmed through most of it, is because right after the replacement was requested, I filed for it, and expecting a positive answer devoted myself a good amount of my time to read the thread.

In the end, and after going back to fill some gaps I had on the information, I realized most of my findings matched those seen by Sundy on post #450 (as I stated on post #455, I didn't see a need to reiterate all that information).

@Neuky, you vote for me because I didn't state a case for ever player before voting? I just voted for one of my prime scum subjects, and I didn't see a need to point something about the other players because I didn't see anything of interest on them.

@Concerned: I feel you got a little jumpy about me thinking that Ty's original call of Stels as scum being possible, could I say even defensive?

I know being reckless is a good way to get oneself as a target as scum just needs to push a little to get the rest on the bandwagon. If they are successful at the end, I would like to everyone to pay close attention now on who is trying to push my bandwagon or trying to easily get along with it. Those are the clues you need to follow once I flip town.

[Neuky]

I know being reckless is a good way to get oneself as a target as scum just needs to push a little to get the rest on the bandwagon. If they are successful at the end, I would like to everyone to pay close attention now on who is trying to push my bandwagon or trying to easily get along with it. Those are the clues you need to follow once I flip town.

Why wait until you are lynched though? If you have a case against anyone - I want to hear it. Try and be a bit more pro-active. I'm also wondering where Mr WOW himself has gone..

[Workdawg]

Hey Guys... just checking in again. Sorry for my lack of content recently. I'm on vacation the next few days and have been trying to finish up my work so I can leave on good terms, lol.

I'll have my laptop with me over the next few days and weekend, but probably won't be on very much except in the evenings. I'll do my best to check in at least once a day, but I can't guarantee it. So I guess we'll go with this:

@Drench V/LA Mar 4-6

Before I head out, I will say that I agree with Neuky and Concerned. I think we have our target, but the day is young yet.

[Drench]

The Eighteenth Vote Count - bleurgh, sick

Neuky
Workdawg
Sundy
sordros - 1 - Neuky
Concerned

No Lynch

Not Voting - 4 - Workdawg, Sundy, sordros, Concerned

With five alive, it's three to lynch!

Deadline expires at 12:22pm on the 20th of March, AEDST.

[sordros]

Why wait until you are lynched though? If you have a case against anyone - I want to hear it. Try and be a bit more pro-active. I'm also wondering where Mr WOW himself has gone..

Very good point. I will try to perform a better analysis on the remaining players and post my insights when I have a little extra time. Hopefully tonight.