A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Raivann]

Since I noticed you can raise/unraise.

Vote Ghostlin, Raise Xvart

for my current reads. Forgot to do that since I expected to post more, but I need to get back to studies.

Huh? Your whole lst post you were saying Ghost was town.

1. Ghost: Nvm I see you put a BL case up.

The BL case is good. The key arguments that I like are:
a. The has vote. I need to look at that closer to verify but that's pretty damning.
b. Name cop slip (?).
c. Vote fails.

If the earlier posts are like this, then I change my Ghost read to a town read rather then initially seen as scummy.

2. Note to self: Compare the ratio of fluff posts to content posts. The defense made me think of MD more then the game.

3. Magua: Leading into Day 2 pre flips, I assume you had a town read on Diddin?

4. I'm a bit of a sucker for frustrated posts. Hmmmmm... emotional anger is seeping through BLs defense. Possible positive feed back look of anger?

However to add: If you were following LAL and you caught Raiv lying, I'd expect a stronger conviction from BL. Self doubt isn't really a scum tell, it's just paranoia. Which is weird. But the constant attacks is revealing BL's thought process which I find kind of normal if you're frustrated. I'd say I agree with BL's statement about the circular logic in the face of that particular point. It gives her town points since emotional play is more of a townie characteristics (they are more emotionally invested in hunting scumz).

5. I like Magua's question to Thor. Taking the step to counter defenses is part of scum huntings. Lots of effort/work involved. Maguna gets town points for that.

6. I dislike Xvart because he attacks both Ghostlin and BL, but didn't take time to look at the full Ghostlin and BL interactions.

This post is awful and makes me think that both addressed players are town while Xvart isn't really scum hunting.

Xvart, considering that Ghostlin is attacking BL do you regard one of them to be scum or both?

Considering that you want to envoy one and vote the other, I get the impression you have scum reads on both. But their interactions suggest otherwise.

a. I'll concede though more context would help which is a fine point in the Ghostlin argument. Everything else is just parroting.

7. Uhhhh... huh. Progression of ideas = normal. Stretching the truth? Not normal. Thor, that's really self incriminating.

K that's it for today. Catchup later. Midtermz FTL

[LimMePls]

Hi everyone. Finally finished reading.

First thing that pinged my scumdar was the combo of posts 159 and 165

I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.

This post strikes me as a bit scummy. Particularly the last sentence.

Unvote
Vote: GreyICE

@Cow's post restriction-
The effort being put into figuring out alternative forms of communication seem pointless. He's been able to communicate so far, and I'm sure he's bright enough to communicate more if he has need.

I agree. In fact, the 'Let me leap forward and immediately start looking like I'm being awesomely pro-town by making a list of actions to communicate' is another instance of Grey trying to hard to appear town.

Though Benmage had declared Grey a VI, he had certainly made it clear that he was willing to lynch VIs, and this looks like LMP taking advantage of that. His reasons are basically "because he says he suspects everyone" and "trying too hard to look town"). Double meh. This looks very much instead like LMP throwing his weight behind a viable wagon on a town VI. This does, however, assume Grey is town so it's not very helpful at this point.

It also assumes that I was a) calling Grey a VI and b) Grey is a VI, both of which are not true. This was ABSOLUTELY not a VI lynch suggestion, and your insinuation that it is makes 0 sense to me. Accusing someone of actions that are blatant attempts to 'apppear town' is not calling them a VI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Will be making a post later today ... work has me tied in knots right now.

[LimMePls]

Feysal's post 538 looks sketchy after diddin's flip with the "And from diddin" stuck in there.

Like so many others, I'm getting a scummy feel from zoraster. And from diddin. Raivann looks worse to me than either of them though. He posted some scum reads early on, but instead of keeping his vote on one of them, he voted Song of Ice and Fire, who had only posted once, less than a day earlier. There was no rhyme or reason to that vote, and what is worse, Raivann has since then tried to justify that vote and kept it there. Also, the way he replied twice to the same post, one hour part, looks simply weird. He first dares me to vote Song, then appears to mock the way I reported what I was up to.

I can definitely see a scum buddy wanting to cover his bases by giving that little honorable mention (while staying off the wagon) where it looked at the time like diddin could have ended up as the D1 lynch.

In fact, an ISO of Feysal shows the only things he said about diddin at all were these 2 plus the first thing he said which was, "I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction". That's it. About the perfect amount for a scum buddy wanting to look clean if diddin's lynch goes through, but not wanting to push the wagon at all.

QFT.

Raivann is not diddin's partner. Raivann is not Stark. I'm pleased that Benmage took her lynch off the table for today, because the amount of people who are for her lynch despite the Raivann/diddin interaction D1 is mindboggling. Ghostlin will reply with something about bussing. Their interaction does not read like bussing, is what I'm saying.

Twilight Sparkle remains scum. Happy with my vote there. Would be happier if other people moved their vote there as well.

Am coming around to Nexus-as-scum.

Am coming around to Thor-as-town. His repeated "I haven't read the thread, nyeah nyeah," is annoyingly antitown, but just seems like one of those "Duh" things where I can't imagine Thor-as-scum saying to themselves, "I know! I'll claim I haven't read the thread, and then I'll start mocking everyone who calls me on it! Being a pest in a game where I know there's another killing faction that could shoot me seems like a great move!"

For those who are not voting Twilight Sparkle, I'd like to know if it's because a) you think they're town, or b) you think they're null-to-scum, but you have a larger scumread on someone else.

@Magua, what's your read of Feysal. Elaborate as much as possible please.

[DTMaster]

Huh I called Ghost Scum in my first post (inital day 2 reads). What are you talking about Raiv?

[DTMaster]

I said if the Earlier posts are like the Post by Post analysis then Ill change from
a scum to a town read. I have yet to read them.

[Benmage]

Yes DTM I was surprised by your ghost vote... can you restate or bullet your dislike of him/a case.

[Benmage]

I said if the Earlier posts are like the Post by Post analysis then Ill change from
a scum to a town read. I have yet to read them.

Your most recent comments about ghost didn't seem like you viewed him as scummy...where are you in your read thru?

[danakillsu]

Oh wow. Looks like I skim-failed. It gets so hard to read when you quote a bunch in the same post like that.

Mikujin/Setael case:
After four posts, he has not ended up voting or raising and has only contributed the way he sees players acting and whether he likes it, which has nothing to do with scumhunting.
After six posts, he has done nothing else except defend his lack of vote. He has not scumhunted, but says he wants to save his vote until he has scumhunted, essentially.
ISO 7: Says DGB seems asinine, insane, and silly, but votes her for that, as if it's a scumtell. He says he doesn't think DGB is actually as unintelligent as she is acting, but calls her unintelligent 3 different ways, so that's bs.
OVERALL:
He really does two things in the entire game.
1) Refuse to actually scumhunt or do much logical debate.
2) Attack one person who is actually putting pressure on someone and attempting to scumhunt. DGB's actions as much as confirmed to all of us that hascow was town, which is something we definitely needed.

[Setael]

If for today you can't look at these 10 people and find scum/scummy people...You EXPLETIVE suck. If you think wasting my gov shot today on idiocy will prove anything...You EXPLETIVE suck. If you're scum...shaking...and in opposition...I forgive you.

GreyICE

DTMaster
DrippingGoofball
xvart
LynchMePls
Zdenek
Feysal
Kast
Nexus

Song of ice and fire

Thor665
Twilight Sparkle

So there's Raivann who if doesn't do much will probably be a popular target tomorrow..Or Seteal(no need to repeat)....Then a plethora of VI's who I gave reasoning why I find them town.

I can see your reasoning, but I think you're going about it the wrong way. We should definitely be shining a spotlight on the players on that list (especially since Feysal and Nexus are on it), as most of them received very little to no pressure D1, but it's not a reason to give anyone a free pass for the entire day. If someone thinks I'm scummy, I want to hear why. As long as they're also considering those on that list and not tunneling, it'll provide better info for tomorrow (and be less annoying for me) if I'm not totally ignored today. Based on you telling DGB and Dana to provide reasons for wanting me lynched, I think you agree.

@Thor: Go read the thread.

Kindly quote where I said I wouldn't and I'll send you $1,000. Otherwise - sod off and I'll do it when and as I have time available, as I've been doing.

My bad, let me restate. What I should've said is: "It is pointless for you to post until you've read the thread. So, go read the thread." You've been here over two weeks. Why did you replace in if you didn't have time to read the thread within a few days?

Since I noticed you can raise/unraise.

Vote Ghostlin, Raise Xvart

for my current reads. Forgot to do that since I expected to post more, but I need to get back to studies.

What did you see that made you "notice" you can raise/unraise? I would think whatever it was would make you notice you should nominate. I mixed up the word myself, but the way you've phrased that makes me wonder if what really happened was you noticed you didn't vote, worried that might look scummy, and came up with a spot excuse for why you hadn't voted. A townie wouldn't be stressed about that and would just vote.

(their are times where I know it can't be helped that I have to be lynched because of my idiotness) that I get very frustrated and start typing in all caps.

It bothers me that you have repeatedly referred to yourself as stupid and said you can't trust your reads at all. If this is really true, why are you playing mafia at all? Or why not stick to newbie games until you trust your reads? Chances are you're hiding behind the VI label as it makes a great excuse for covering up scumminess.

It also assumes that I was a) calling Grey a VI and b) Grey is a VI, both of which are not true. This was ABSOLUTELY not a VI lynch suggestion, and your insinuation that it is makes 0 sense to me. Accusing someone of actions that are blatant attempts to 'apppear town' is not calling them a VI.

Read it again. At no point am I suggesting that you called Grey a VI. Your (b) I admitted, which is why it's moot without knowing Grey's alignment.

@Dana: Your thoughts on this? viewtopic.php?p=2842007#p2842007

nominate: Nexus

[xvart]

Catching up tonight.

[Benmage]

I can see your reasoning, but I think you're going about it the wrong way. We should definitely be shining a spotlight on the players on that list (especially since Feysal and Nexus are on it), as most of them received very little to no pressure D1, but it's not a reason to give anyone a free pass for the entire day. If someone thinks I'm scummy, I want to hear why. As long as they're also considering those on that list and not tunneling, it'll provide better info for tomorrow (and be less annoying for me) if I'm not totally ignored today. Based on you telling DGB and Dana to provide reasons for wanting me lynched, I think you agree.

Attack anyone you want...but only those listed are up for lynching.

[danakillsu]

@ Setael
My exact thoughts: It was a great attempt to rescue the failings of your predecessor. Based only on that, I would have a slight town read on you. But it still stands that your predecessor obviously had time to post something and never contributed except to attack a player essentially just because THEY were contributing.

[Benmage]

Oh wow. Looks like I skim-failed. It gets so hard to read when you quote a bunch in the same post like that.

Does this reference post 1140:

Dana

Can you bullet or restate the Miku/Setael lynch again please.

Thats the whole post...and I bolded your name so if all your doing is skimming for things relating to you, you shouldnt miss it....

Mikujin/Setael case:
After four posts, he has not ended up voting or raising

He rvs votes in his first post...and raises himself..are you referring to where he unraises and unvotes?

and has only contributed the way he sees players acting and whether he likes it, which has nothing to do with scumhunting.

Its commentary based on his opinion…doesn’t everyone do this?

After six posts, he has done nothing else except defend his lack of vote. He has not scumhunted, but says he wants to save his vote until he has scumhunted, essentially.

He stated no one has stood out to him, and defends that stance… Nothing wrong in my opinion with waiting to have a better grasp on the game. In fact him defending this stance is a town tell if you ask me, because I would envision scum not trying to make waves and placing a vote.
Comments like this read town to me:

Once again, if you think you're going to bully me into doing what you want, you can think again. I've got a spine, and a head on my shoulders. I'll vote when I'm confident in the one I'm making.

ISO 7: Says DGB seems asinine, insane, and silly, but votes her for that, as if it's a scumtell. He says he doesn't think DGB is actually as unintelligent as she is acting, but calls her unintelligent 3 different ways, so that's bs.

Actually he says hes told DGB is better than what he is seeing from her. But he believes shes playing ridiculous.. Her demands from cow were absurd. And I could easily see someone attack DGB for her position.

OVERALL:
He really does two things in the entire game.
1) Refuse to actually scumhunt or do much logical debate.
2) Attack one person who is actually putting pressure on someone and attempting to scumhunt. DGB's actions as much as confirmed to all of us that hascow was town, which is something we definitely needed.

1) I dont think not having a grasp on the game equates to refusing to scum-hunt.
2) DGB was scumhunting? DGB was trying to get cow to break his post restriction. I was getting fucking annoyed as hell with DGB and wanted her to shutup. She was illogical as fuck. If you read some of what I wrote I kept trying to illustrate how illogical she was behaving. She did NOTHING to help confirm or not confirm cows alignment to us.

Conclusion: I am nowhere near sold that Miku is scum. Infact reading him in iso myself gives me a better town read than I initially had. I think I was disliking him for his lack of activity…but relooking it appears as if that truly was real life. Compounded with what Setael has to offer…I am quite happy looking elsewhere for scum.

Dana, what do you think of what Setael has offered?

[danakillsu]

I was referencing the post that I skim-failed. The one where you were talking about Thor.
Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
No, not everyone does it that way. He did a commentary on the game in a way that gave none of his opinions and drew no important conclusions.
He actually did refuse to scumhunt by defending his lack of voting. It's hard to do good scumhunting without voting. A townie places his vote on a scummy player and watches the fireworks. A scum player wants to not make waves, yes, and he accomplishes this by not voting. This is because he cares too much what the others think about his votes.
This is why I say that DGB was scumhunting, or at least playing the game the way it should be played. Whether it brought results is a matter of opinion, and I can see we disagree on the matter. What you wanted DGB to do is not important to me.
I already said what I thought of what Setael has offered. Being a different player, her posts read very differently. But it would be easy to replace into a game and make a long, logical post contrasting heavily with the actions of a scummy predecessor, whether as town or scum.

[Ghostlin]

Back, reading. This game posts roughly two pages of commentary to half a page on some of my others, so I may be slowish, but I'll answer some questions and have insight on my next post.

[Benmage]

I was referencing the post that I skim-failed. The one where you were talking about Thor.

Ah gotchya, K.

No, not everyone does it that way.

Most dont at any point in the game give personal feeling, or comments on others? Regardless..Hows this scummy?

A scum player wants to not make waves, yes, and he accomplishes this by not voting.

But this had the reverse effect..And he could've rectified the situation...by voting...Rather he sticks to his guns...A Town-tell in my book.

Anyways. Your case as convincing as it may be for you...wasn't at all for me...infact the suspicious I did have regarding that slot were alleviated some with the second, closer review.

[Magua]

@DTMaster:

I'm usually not a stickler about this, but given that I'm in this game with MagnaofIllusion, disambiguation helps. For instance, I can'te tell if by "Maguna" you mean me, or him.

3. Magua: Leading into Day 2 pre flips, I assume you had a town read on Diddin?

This right there makes me doubt how much you're actually reading.

@Magua, what's your read of Feysal. Elaborate as much as possible please.

Feysal's leaning town.

First, I give him a bit of a pass on his ploddish nature and careful placement of his vote, as I know that's how he plays as town (reference: Consulmaker 2).

I find his post 746 to be very town, and his method of building his cases is at least rational; I can follow along with what he says and understand the point of view he's coming from.

I disagree with his extreme focus on Raivann, and I disagree with his end result (Raivann is scum).

I would very much like Feysal to give opinions on people *other* than Raivann.

Also, since it seems to have been missed:

For those who are not voting Twilight Sparkle,

I'd like to know if it's because a) you think they're town, or b) you think they're null-to-scum, but you have a larger scumread on someone else.

A scum player wants to not make waves, yes, and he accomplishes this by not voting.

But this had the reverse effect..And he could've rectified the situation...by voting...Rather he sticks to his guns...A Town-tell in my book.

Yet you do not believe this to be the case with Thor?

[Benmage]

A scum player wants to not make waves, yes, and he accomplishes this by not voting.

But this had the reverse effect..And he could've rectified the situation...by voting...Rather he sticks to his guns...A Town-tell in my book.

Yet you do not believe this to be the case with Thor?

Correct.

[danakillsu]

@ Benmage
It wasn't that this fake "catchup" post was wrong in and of itself. The problem is that this lame obvious stuff on the other players was as close to scumhunting or giving his reads as he got, except for with DGB, which I've already talked about. Here's a question for you: which of the following categories would you put me in?
Scum
Leaning Scum
Null
Leaning Town
Town

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Thor

– we can play this back and forth game as much as you want. I find myself agreeing with Locke who stated it isn’t productive to continue until you have caught up.

In summary – I don’t find your stated reasons for your reads on Locke and DTM very credible in light of your statements made at catch-up. Furthermore that you didn’t voice any direct suspicion of DGB despite later stating you found him suspicious. Lastly your dismissive and hostile attitude doesn’t strike me as indicative of Town Thor I have seen previously. Furthermore given your experience with Chesskid in Return To Liten, where he read 5 pages and quit, should have been direct warning of how mis-informed limited reads can be.

That said –

I expect MoI to be more townie then his weak attacks on me have been.

Hello double standards. Didn’t you just claim my thought that I expected TS to be a stronger Town force as Lannister aligned wasn’t compelling?

I personally think my scum meta speaks for itself in this regard.

Being aware of your scum ‘meta’ means any attempt to use it to show why you aren’t scum is useless.

--

Short Summarized Version of my Twilight Sparkle suspicion

–

My suspicion begins with the Shadow vote. It appeared as a simple early bandwagon vote but when questioned on it TS attempts to justify it by saying that inexperienced scum tend to be argumentative and aggrevating on purpose. That explanation doesn’t make sense and the justification is defense beyond what was necessary at that juncture.

Soon after the vote Shadow completely disappears form TS’s ISO. No follow-up questioning of anything Shadow says or any other sorts of interactions.

TS expressed some concern that myself, DGB and dana are all scummy in ISO 7 but doesn’t move to vote any of those players while letting the vote languish on Shadow.

ISO 13 further questions DGB about mis-repping something GreyICE said. Again, no vote.

ISO 16 – the vote finally comes of Shadow with the explanation that Shadow ‘picked up Town points’. In the same post she votes Thor (then ASOIAF) for the following reason.

You don't know what a VI means, so what exactly did you like about the posts of someone most just recommending we policy lynch them? Rav points this out in 209; I am similarly confused.

The post in question by ASOIAF was on page 9. By this point Benmage has at least 20 posts and they certainly don’t all revolve around policy lynching. It’s a misrepresentation to say that ASOIAF liking Benmage’s multiple posts means she must support policy lynches on VIs and not knowing what one is means she’s contradictory.

Again, a bad justification to move a vote. Especially since, as had already been said, the post in question you could certainly attack for being very agreeable / non-confrontational which can be expected from newer players as scum.

I very much dislike the Sotty-head’s questioning of my Benmage raise. It feels very much like probing / nitpicking looking for any justification for suspicion. Furthermore the back-peddling done when I questioned why she didn’t actually read the links provided before stating her opinion doesn’t reflect well on the whole line of questioning, IMO.

I’m not overly impressed with the ISO spectacular catch-up posts – there is lots of careful positioning language in those posts (example – Locke is pretty much confirmed Town but could be a Serial Killer) that I see as high level and well disguised fence-sitting. I also find the “MoI is the Anti-Spyrex” explanation that hito finds my playstyle inherently scummy as a possible way for the hydra to move off the suspicion that Sotty and Mina have indicated.

TL : DR

– I’m happy with my vote.

--

MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

Hasn’t changed. The potential for playing for Town ‘cred’ by questioning a Non-Mafia popular wagon before the flip still stands. It simply didn’t work out, if it was the intention, since Zoraster ended up being a 3rd Party.

--

I second the suspicion regarding

DGB

revolving around post 1034. That doesn’t seem like a logical chain of thought to have labelled Locke as a good scum candidate after the Zoraster flip and simply back off it when questioned about it.

--

Yeah, if I bold certain parts that someone said, I can make it into a scummy thing. If a person had said "I am" in an ass long paragraph and also used the word "scum" later in it, if I bold them do I get points for catching a slip? No. because I excluded everything before, after, and in between those words and I'm not reading the context.

Magua didn’t do that. He pointed out two complete sentances that were contradictory in your statements. Just because the whole sentances are separated in your statement doesn’t mean that they can’t contradict each other.

--

Why don't you answer my question first? Something to hide?

I also said earlier I didn't do town lists. I'll indulge you this once.

Hascow
Myself
Leaning towards Locke and DGB as well.

You're up there too.

While we are on the subject of Cognitive Dissonance I give you’re the bolded.

The first sentence clearly infers that Nexus has reason to be suspicious of Ben. Yet the second outright states he’s near the top of Nexus’es Town list.

Additionally as a whole this post reads as buddying very similar to what diddin was doing with me earlier, with just a touch of undermining at the beginning.

--

Can cow daykill again?

What Pro-Town reason do you have for asking, other than to make sure you aren’t on the chopping block? Keeping the possibility of further shots obscure helps Town as it withholds information from scum.

--

Uh oh. Somebody either got overexcited or scumslipped. Last game, when I was scum, WE DIDN'T HAVE DAYTALK. I'm pretty sure everybody could have known that. Do you have reason to believe any different for this game, Benmage?

Yes, I agree that there was some overexcited reaching going on, but it was here not in Benmage’s post.

Benmage was clearly showing Thor’s play from ANOTHER GAME where scum had Daytalk. No attempt at all was made to say that I exists here.

Why attempt to characterize that post as a scum slip?

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.8

Raivann (1) Feysal

Twilight Sparkle (5) Magua, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Raivann, Zdenek

Bunnylover (2) Ghostlin, hasdgfas
Setael (2) Danakillsu, DrippingGoofball
danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (2) xvart, DTMaster

Thor665 (5) Twilight Sparkle, Locke Lamora, Shadow1psc, Nexus, Bunnylover

Feysal (2) LynchMePls, Setael


Not voting (1) Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Setael (1) Magua

Bunnylover (5) Danakillsu, MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, xvart, Nexus

Raivann (2) Bunnylover, Ghostlin
Zdenek (1) Kast
Danakillsu (1) Twilight Sparkle
Thor665 (2) Zdenek, Benmage
Nexus (2) Raivann, Setael
Twilight Sparkle (1) Hasdgfas
xvart (1) DTMaster


Not nominating (5) Shadow1psc, DrippingGoofball, Locke Lamora, Thor665, Feysal

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie

* Feysal has been prodded
* Kast is on V/la. As is Ghostlin.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline is two weeks and can be found here.

[hasdgfas]

Cow

Point at your top 3 scum suspects.

*points at Bunnylover*
*points at Twilight Sparkle*
*shrugs*

Then point at your top 3 town reads.

*points at Magua*
*points at LynchMePls*
*shrugs*

[Benmage]

Cow

Vote Sparkle then please. He is among the acceptable lynches...Your not seriously gonna try and be as stubborn as dana on this...surely you can see some of the benefit of what I am doing.

Tomorrow will be a different day.

Today...make better use of that vote.

[danakillsu]

Why attempt to characterize that post as a scum slip?

I didn't really, just wanted to know what made him think that. If he had said "oh, well, I guess I don't really know that" or something along those lines, I would have only seen it as minorly scummy. If he had started flailing, it would have been cool, but not expected. But, of course, I was mistaken anyway.