Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Ghostlin]

Vote: Mute

Wait, I feel like I've done that before....

I am one of your two SE's. While not in a teaching role like Charlie, I enjoy generally gabbing my face off and would be willing to impart some of my hard earned lessons into the game of Mafia on this site. As for the joke vote above: I played in a previous game with Mute and was responsible for getting him lynched. It was my first replacement game, what can I say?

Twisted, Charlie:

What's so scummy about the rapid voting/unvoting in RVS? (Random Voting Stage).

[Ghostlin]

To Charlie:

I have been trying to figure out how to use the ISO feature and I can't seem to find it. Can you help?

Know you addressed this to Charlie, but since I'm here, go to the bottom of the page, do not hit 'reply'. There should be set of dropdowns. There's one that says 'see all posts by:' you should select a name and then hit the 'go' button.

[Ghostlin]

First off:

Waitaminute. I'm sure I've seen this sort of thing before. You'd best explain before I go looking for it.

Hmm well this is my first game on this site, and I've only skimmed through some other recent newbie/mini theme games so far, and I didn't see anything like this in those. I planned to do my first post like that as soon as I /in-ed the newbie queue, for the reason below.

To Twisted and Charlie

: I did the multiple votes thing in order to gauge reaction or lack thereof to it. Clearly I had some interesting results.

GXW, your post is scummy in that it completely denies the point of the RVS. You're supposed to start a wagon going by placing a vote on one of the players.

1. If the player is (bad)scum then they should react badly to it

and crack under the pressure.

2. Double RVS-ing tends to be a solid scumtell, since there's no point to it. You RVS for pressure - why would you destroy reasonless pressure on one person to push reasonless pressure on another?

And in your case it's 9 times worse :p

HoS: gxw

I'm not voting for you yet because it is a newbie game, and I remember in my first newbie game I too made a very scummish first post, and I turned out to be town (Isn't that right Farmer )

However, I'm HoSing you because of the reasons above, despite it being a newbie game. You need to explain to us like Charlie said.

1.Out of the six players who have responded after my post, you are one out of four who acknowledged my post, and you are the only one who had to go make a big deal out of it, which, according to you, is indicative of scum. I also find it interesting that you act like I didn't start a wagon, when, in fact, I did. And it's on you. My last vote was on you and I never unvoted.

2.It seems to me that you are trying to defend yourself even when there is no pressure on you by saying that my post "completely denies the point of RVS". Therefore, apparently, my vote is completely pointless and no one should wagon you. To me, this comes across again as "reacting badly" and, according to your logic, you are scum.

To make sure everyone sees this -

Unvote, Vote: Twistedspoon

This is not an RVS vote.

Also, aren't all RVS votes "reasonless pressure" because you are putting pressure on someone for silly reasons? How does switching pressure make it any less pressure or any less reasonable than it already wasn't?

To Charlie:

I have been trying to figure out how to use the ISO feature and I can't seem to find it. Can you help?

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

You are

voting

for TS on the basis that he responded badly toward you for muitivoting and unvoting the entire town, ie, cracked under the pressure of you voting him at the end, over the fact that RVS doesn't mean anything.

TS originally votes you for a scumtell of muitiple voting during the RVS, saying it's against the whole scheme of RVS, which is to see who is the first to crack under pressure. (His argument being by giving your vote away, you were the first to crack.)

Frankly, here's how I see it:

GXW:

Fishing for reactions generally is town. However, treating your vote without value generally is scummy (seeing that's the most most protown players get). I'm going to throw in the standard 'it's Day 1' argument and give you a nulltell at this point.

TS:

I agree with the premise that if you overvote, your vote loses pressure. This is a very town thing to say. GXW has one point, tho', out of the two reactions this illicted, you were the only vote (Charlie was a HoS) and GXW voted you, which makes this look like an OMGUS of sorts, even if the reasons were slightly scummy. I give you a nulltell.

The most protown out of the three of you was

Charlie

, who I'll give a leaning town tell, although I really would like to hear from others, since we're kinda in the heat of the matter now.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: And this is what I get for NOT reading the vote count. Still, TS is still null for the OMGUS HoS. King; how do you feel about your RVS now?

[Ghostlin]

[

TS:

I agree with the premise that if you overvote, your vote loses pressure. This is a very town thing to say. GXW has one point, tho', out of the two reactions this illicted, you were the only vote (Charlie was a HoS) and GXW voted you, which makes this look like an OMGUS of sorts, even if the reasons were slightly scummy. I give you a nulltell

This is incorrect, btw. TS didn't vote GXW. It was a HoS--Charlie didn't HoS at all that I can see, rather asked a question for an explaination.

[Ghostlin]

TS:

I agree with the premise that if you overvote, your vote loses pressure. This is a very town thing to say. GXW has one point, tho', out of the two reactions this illicted, you were the only vote (Charlie was a HoS) and GXW voted you, which makes this look like an OMGUS of sorts, even if the reasons were slightly scummy. I give you a nulltell.

1) I didn't vote him. your facts are wrong. I was the HoS
2)Explain how my reasons were scummy. They've worked well in other games at RVS stage. Double voting is usually a scum thing to do, and even if it may not be the case this time, especially in a newbie game, all i did was pick up on this and comment.
3) It's not just me who thinks that double RVS voting is a scumtell, one of the reasons I cited was a direct quote from anther player in another game of mine in a similar RVS situation.

Double RVS-ing tends to be a solid scumtell, since there's no point to it. You RVS for pressure - why would you destroy reasonless pressure on one person to push reasonless pressure on another?

explain why my theory was scummy and I'll give you a gold star.
my theory was spot on, regardless of if gxw isn't mafia in this game.

anyaways, that's my long post of the day.
Oh, and Charlie, I joined your theme game :3

First off, when I posted this:

TS: I agree with the premise that if you overvote, your vote loses pressure. This is a very town thing to say. GXW has one point, tho', out of the two reactions this illicted, you were the only vote (Charlie was a HoS) and GXW voted you, which makes this look like an OMGUS of sorts,

even if the reasons were slightly scummy

. I give you a nulltell.

I did mispost, which I then EBWOP (Edit By Way of Post). I will do that a lot. The HoS seems quite reactionary was all I'm trying to say is to that. The bolded part should read, 'even if the reasons for the initial vote seemed scummy to you'. However, the entire thing is a null tell on both of your cases; there's nothing compelling there to really make me believe 'YES, this person is scum'. I'm almost wondering if this isn't a town on town pileup.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP : Forgot this since we're out of RVS on page 1, it seems.

Unvote

I don't have enough information to believe Mute is a scum.

Mod: Could you fix that for me...everything after 'I gave you a nulltell' should be in quotes.

Fixed?

- Vel

[Ghostlin]

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

I don't like this question and I just got it pointed out to me. This seems borderline role fishing: because while people are usually excited for game start, certain roles pique interest more than others.

However, I'm going to stop and use this like a learning tool:

Rule 3 or 4 about Mafia: You usually do not want to reveal (you may hint, but you better know what you're doing) your role before one of the following: mass claim at lylo, when you're about to be lynched (L-1), or you are aware of who the last scum is and can lynch them easily. There are other times you may feel like you want to claim, but it's best not to volunteer it outside of those times.

Hmm, interesting indeed. What do you say if I tell you that I think that you were told to do that in your Mafia Night-talk? (Night 0, or pre-game)

This might be an OK baited scum hunting question: but it might hide a bus underneath it, or very least a wagon. It's sufficiently loaded so regardless of the response, the person who answers it looks scummy. Also, the only one who knows about any contents of the Scum QT...is scum.

Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so.

Vote: Charlie

[Ghostlin]

One thing I've noticed with all the discussion about tunnelling: it's page 3. It's a bit early to accuse people on tunnelling, because first impressions of some of the first things said in this game will develop into votes and cases. In other words, wagoning is one of the ways to end a RVS, along with traps and word play. Tunnelling only becomes important, (and like OMGUS voting, is only so-so for a scum tell) later in the game when there are obvious other targets in front of you and you will NOT talk about them AT ALL, or your reasoning for continuing a case on someone is so ludicrous the other players find you're being silly.

[Ghostlin]

I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role.

Isn't that obvious. It looks to me that you're trying to appear pro-town here.

Like to stop you here. It's

not

obvious, and inexpert townies lie about their role to avoid getting lynched (people usually are more reluctant to lynch PRs).

If you are a townie, and outisde of L-1, do not be afraid of being lynched.

Scum needs themselves alive more than town does, both factions can win if the people are them are dead, but for scum, it's a shorter trip. (I've seen experienced town lie too in a claim, with mixed results.)

Also, if you claim in a semi-closed a role you don't have, there's a possibilty that someone will counterclaim you; which means, if you're VT, you've outed a role that wants to remain in the backgound and killed yourself for no gain. (This is NOT the case with scum.)

[Ghostlin]

...

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

Um,

how?

...
Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

You know, he said this right before voting you "Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so," so refusing to answer those questions like that, well, lets just say it doesn't look good for you.

...
I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

Premature lynch? Why would anyone, scum or not, hammer him at this time, and why are you worried about it? And

why,

if you do think it is a possibility, did you still vote him with "confidence"? Someone could easily be lynched at any time whilst you are away from the computer. There is no way you could be checking this game constantly every couple minutes of every hour of every day, which is what would be required to be

absolutely sure

that you could unvote in time.

...

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

Not so much a FoS as it is a "I'm totally going to vote for you if you don't give a good explanation" (or are knocked to L-1). Incidentally, this seems like a good time to point out that

Charlie is at L-1, next vote on him lynches, so don't go voting wildly.

L-2

. Mute, TS, and I are currently got votes on Charlie, according to last vote count. Also, I have accidentally quickhammered someone as town, and it's not pretty. I got VI status for a while in that game doing it (fortunately, not many people thought I was scum to begin with). You do not want the Day to end now, mostly because it limits analysis of things said later. (Particularly in a Lylo or Mylo situation.)

Farmer, please post more.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: I just realized I threw around a lot of Mafia terms without explaining them first:

VI:

Village Idiot, a player that plays poorly or does stupid things during a game. These players are dangerous because often times scum can affect this and town will mislynch them, or if they don't, they hang around later and are dangerous in endgame.

L-#:

This is lynch minus a number. This is the number of votes need to lynch someone. L-1 means one vote left to lynch.

Lylo:

Lynch wrong and lose. This is the situation where scum/town are in endgame and if town doesn't lynch scum, the game is over with a scum win, and town has no option but to lynch. There is a 5 player lylo (3 town, 2 scum) and a 3 player lylo (2 town, 1 scum) in newbie games.

Mylo:

Mislynch and lose. Unlike Lylo, this means if town lynches wrong, they lose, but not lynching at all is a possible option. (In newbie games, this happens after a successful doc protect.) The general wisdom says unless you have an obvious scum candidate, no lynching is acutally the correct play, and you usually don't want to add analysis so scum doesn't get more info going into Lylo.

quickhammer:

Casting the lynch vote without realizing you're doing it (or doing it to cut off analysis). The first is town in a dumb moment, the second is generally considered scummy.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: This is why SE's shouldn't give advice, except I do this all the time in normal gameplay.

Mod, can you fix the tags for bold in my last post?

IIRC, this is twice now. Use the Preview button please

[Ghostlin]

Wow, post #69 is very scummish, for the reasons people have stated. I would be in favor of hammering him, depending how good his defense is.

Do not. I repeat, do not hammer, until at least a defense and a claim has been done and we've all had time to discuss it.

Anyone hammering at this point will be the primary lynch candidate for Day 2 in my book unless I have a compelling reason otherwise.

[Ghostlin]

Foresti:

1) What do you think of Charlie's questions that could look like rolefishing and lack of response to the case I put up?

2) I'm surprised too, the fact that it's anyone. Not the just the IC.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghostlin: Are you still comfortable with your vote on Charlie, given that he is at L-1? You initially said that your vote was incentive to have your questions answered, has it become a solid suspicion now?

In the absence of a defense, I'm not object to applying the extreme amount of pressure on a person. Charlie...hasn't given a defense to my accusations. There's few reasons to role fish even as obliquely as he did it, and paired with the second question..it didn't look good. So I applied pressure.

I've still not gotten an answer or a defense. That leads me to believe my initial belief was right: doing what they did was scummy and for scummy motives. I'm OK with taking this to lynch, but I'm not OK with that happening on Page 4, Day 1.

[Ghostlin]

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Generic:

1) Put away your itchy hammer fingers. That's not worth it. Also, if you are town, DO NOT self-vote, OR self-hammer. It's an antitown play and helps no one. I have to say this because we're on our second wagon at L-1 today and one of you might get weirdly suicidal on me. (I've had townies do it before.)

2) Ignore the fact that we're SEs/ICs when you make your cases as much as possible. Regardless of the role assigned, I play to win, I expect Charlie to, and I expect Mute to. Yes, I'm here to have fun, but winning is important.

My reads:

Mute:

Has gotten a lot better at this. He reads very town to me. Who do you like better, Charlie or TS for lynch if right now was the deadline and they were both at L-1? Why?

TS:

Whoa, turbo. A few questions for you:

1) Is it possible that Foresti and Charlie could be defending each other's points outside of scum buddies?
2) Why would you be comfortable with a hammer on Day 1, Page 5? Explain in detail.
3) Do you always make connections this soon in games?
4) If Charlie was scum, do you think his buddy might throw him under the bus and distance at L-1 instead of buddying up to him?

You're leaning scum because you're trying too hard. You're eager for a lynch right now when we need to gather information. I'm not comfortable with telegraphing a Foresti/Charlie scum pair, and lynching them right this second to endgame. Let your brain engage and stop trying to impress us.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

GXW:

Tell me. What do you think of TS and Charlie right now? If one of them's scum, do you think they both might be? Why or why not?
Also, answer the question I gave Mute.
Nulltell: your last two posts don't betray you're thinking. You did follow orders and didn't hammer, tho'.

King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.

Foresti:

I see you defending Charlie. Give me your reasoning why Charlie is obviously a town read for you. True null (slight town lean due to suspecting someone not one of the main suspects). Charlie or TS flipping town or scum might throw this one way or another depending on future behavior.

Dazzy:

I'd like your scum reads with a short explanation as to why. I don't pick up anything scummy from you, and you're reading town. New town, but very obviously town.

FarmeriXi:

Can't get a good read on you. What do you think of all this?

[Ghostlin]

Lynches I would not mind ATM:

Charlie, TS. King 1216.

Would not lynch unless it was seconds to Day 1 being over:

Mute, Dazzy

[Ghostlin]

Some of town has answered my questions and given me the information I've asked for and contributed talking points. Thank you.

The rest of you know who you are. Also, GXW: I reread Post 100. Were you acutally that close to hammering at that point?

[Ghostlin]

Lynches I would not mind ATM:

Charlie, TS. King 1216.

why do you not mind a king lynch, ghostlin?

Read up for that answer. Keep in mind that was before King acutally made one of the best looking cases I've seen this game.

[Ghostlin]

8. Twistedspoon's continued defense to the arguments against him has been mostly AtE.

you were kind enough to put mostly in

:3

but srsly, Methinks you're still talking about my 'buddying' to you.
Well that wasn't what I was doing. It looks ambiguous and could be seen as that, but it wasn't.
and what's wrong with AtE if it keeps a townie alive? That's all that matters at the end of the day.
No prizes for logic.

But i see your point and have booted up my logic circuits now.

AtE is often seen as scummy, because it involves manipulation of factors that work outside of logic: appealing to one's emotional state.

That being said, there are plenty of town players in plenty of games that have used AtE arguments--it's not just scum that use it.

Also, TS, I dislike your argument about 'scum can push townie lynches with 100% confidence'. It's a well-known that you can find scum on the lynch wagons often: even those of the other scum. Look up bussing in the wiki.

[Ghostlin]

Argh, Ghostlin... I'm having trouble forming a solid read on you. At some points you fit Town tells in my book and at others you fit the Mafia ones. Or maybe I'm getting prarnoid. What am I going to do with you?

Allright, how about you actually explain #174? Honestly, the picture I got was a kinda fragmented and I end up more confused than enlightened.

Someone asked me why I supported a King lynch, I said that'd have to read above the comment where I said I supported that to see why I'd said why. However, all of that was before King's nine point case (which I'd have to reread, but a lot of times, a lot of scum don't put that much thought into their cases, choosing one or two easy points to attack their opponents on). I supported the King lynch mostly because of his 'I'm ready to hammer you' contradictions. Quickhammers on Day 1 are not protown.

[Ghostlin]

VOTE: gxw

You need to answer the question I asked you and your eagerness to hammer concerns me.

[Ghostlin]

I think everyone fells some eagerness to hammer because of the thrill of the flip; that's only natural.
However it isn't sensible and people usually don't hammer so early.

gxw merely said he was eager, but what matters at the end of the day is that he didn't hammer when he could have.

I'm not defending him, that's just my take on hia actions. I could be completely wrong, but that's just how I interpreted things.

I want to say a few things here, but I don't really want to ruin the entire reason why his eagerness to hammer either hammer concerns me.

[Ghostlin]

Dazzy: It's a bit early for scum pairs. However, you seem to connected a few things well, and it seems if Charlie and TS were scumpartners, it'd be a logical jump to make, this is a good TS case.

Charlie: WTF?

Hello, new people. Do say stuff, we won't bite.

UNVOTE: tclawren

Don't tell me that both Mafia members replaced out... if that is the case then I'll be surprised.

This

isn't

your first rodeo and you know as well as I do replacements mean jack as far as alignment. You almost bring this up as a 'Look over here, please!' I had to replace out of two games (larges, apparently I'm not ready for the book keeping and the reading of 3-5+ pages a day much less the discussion topics) and it wasn't indicative of alignment. I felt it was unfair for the other players to have a subpar one in the game.

Mer's No Lynch seems like null newbie, although I'll give you the advice that it's almost better not to vote than it is to No Lynch vote the first day, you'll get accused of slowing down the game, and towns don't want to NL the first day.

TC seems...amazingly town, considering the issues we had with that slot. TC, what about TS that makes you think he's town.

Mute is playing somewhat lurker town, but I know his previous play style from another game, and I think this is MuteTown. No red flags have gone off as of yet.

King is nulltown. He threw together one of best posts I've read on a case, but then has gone sorta quiet. Good defense against Mer, tho'.

TS..well, TS concerns me. I'll just say that.

In order by catergory, but not in order order:

Lynchable:

Charlie (I am going to use a fallacy here, but this is the second time he's done something off. As the IC Town, he would normally know better. As the IC scum, he might be doing it and hoping we don't catch it.)
TS (His posts are kinda like a twinkie lately. Lots of cream, not much substance.)

Null (Leaning Scum)

TC (That slot was looking scummy before you replaced into it.)
Mer (Farmer didn't post a lot and not what I remember)

Null

Foresti (Can't really read you worth a damn)

Null (Leaning Town):

King1216 (More stuff on your current suspect)

Town:

Dazzy (Seems protown to me; lots of content)
Mute (Meta protown read, still town by posts)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Charlie

[Ghostlin]

This isn't your first rodeo and you know as well as I do replacements mean jack as far as alignment. You almost bring this up as a 'Look over here, please!' I had to replace out of two games (larges, apparently I'm not ready for the book keeping and the reading of 3-5+ pages a day much less the discussion topics) and it wasn't indicative of alignment. I felt it was unfair for the other players to have a subpar one in the game.

Of course, replacing out is actually a Towntell according to some senior Mafiascum players. I've read that somewhere in Mafia Discussion, no need to elaborate on that because opinions differ. The real problem I have with this post is that I'm in agreement with you, yet you say what I just did indicates a totally opposite line of thought. How is this confusion possible?

I think the answer lies in me trying to post succinctly added with you thinking too much over a simple matter. In other words, you've spotted some small detail and you've made a mountain out of a molehill.

Let me clarify. The slots being mafia don't necessarly track, a lot of players replace out for different reasons, and that's kinda what you made it sound like to me with that post of 'Don't tell me both slots are scum'. Paraphrase mine. I dislike using experience based arguments, but slots flip what they do, and the IC should know this--and it seemed formulated for newbies to latch on to.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but that's my feelings on the matter.

[Ghostlin]

I didn't no vote to helpt he town, I did it just because. Someone has to die, and I really wouldn't like to decide who is that. I think my game so far has been rather selfish (working on that), what made you think I'm struggling to appear pro-town.

This raises my hackles. Why? Town wins only if we lynch people and a flip, ANY flip helps us. We flip town today, we have one less suspect and can look at the wagons that happened during the day to help find the other, as well as commentary. I'm debating whether or not this blantant fence sitting is scummy or not enough to change my vote. It's certainly enough for me to take another look.

[Ghostlin]

I voted foresti because
1) I had a null read on him
2) If he was a lurker then I assumed he would respond to the vote
3) I really wouldn't have voted if i believe it made no difference. What would the point of that be to town or scum? :/

1) If you have a null read on Foresti, who do you believe is scum? Do you think a Foresti vote is more important than them?

2) Fair enough.

3) It is possible it could be a scum tactic to redirect conversation, or a town tactic as a prod. You wish for us to believe the second.

[Ghostlin]

I've just softclaimed to having a power role, and you didn't even notice...is it really early where you are?

no, I just didn't want to draw attention to it should scum see it :/
too late now I guess

I should probably stop underestimating people...

Stop. By pointing out your soft claim, you've hurt town's chances immensely if you are, in fact a powerrole. If you're the doctor or the cop, you've just confirmed the setup for scum while also increased your chances as an NK/RB target. If you are scum, then this is hideously scummy.

[Ghostlin]

I've just softclaimed to having a power role, and you didn't even notice...is it really early where you are?

no, I just didn't want to draw attention to it should scum see it :/
too late now I guess

It's 8PM in the UK anyways. :/

I want a second opinion of Meransiel's softclaim and his decision not to partcipate in today's lynch.

We leave him alive, and then see if he's alive tomorrow morning. If he is, that lowers the options somewhat.

[Ghostlin]

This is just bad all around. If we keep him alive through the night and he's still alive, then he could be scum. Or it could the hugest WIFOM in existence.

*grumblegrumblegrumble*

UNVOTE: Meransiel

TC; the only other option is a roleblock. If he's RBed, that confirms the setup if we accept Mer's town. Yes, it sucks, but it's the most logical play right now.

[Ghostlin]

We already got one claim out of him, and I do not think continued defenses will move this along any. We've got a decent amount of content for Day 1, town needs the information from the flip more, at least to eliminate the suspects and narrow the field. Plus he's on my lynch list for today, and I'm pretty sure he's acting scummish.

Unvote; Vote: TS

Be pissed at me later, I feel this is best move for town then hopping off and on wagons right now, or try to do a last second lynch.

[Ghostlin]

If anyone wants more reasons on why I just hammered there, I can write an article about it.

[Ghostlin]

I thought you were cool Ghostlin
your last post seems to be a makeshift justification for a townie lynch. Looking at clawren's 'do not hammer unless you are really sure post' it doesn't seem as though you are really sure. :/

It just seems I'm your lab rat

Ah well. I'm dead now. Fun playing with you guys.
The good news is that you guys might still win and the PR wasn't lynched.
the better news is that I can join the newbie queue as an SE now

I look forwards to playing with you all again. My thanks to the Mod too.

any final words or questions to me before I go?

This isn't personal. You're probably a great guy, but I do feel we need to lynch, and you're a great candidate.

Here are my reasons:

1)

We put you at L-1 twice in one day.

Town seems convinced you're scum. I am carrying out the will of town, and you've never left my scum list once today that I can personally recall. We also got your claim eariler in the day, so we know you're not a PR. That's pretty safe to me.

2)

You claimed VT.

Now, I'm not saying if you're VT, you shouldn't have claimed VT, but frankly, it's the safest claim to make, there is no counter claim. VT's who claim it Day 1 should probably expect to die, it's an easy blending claim.

3)

You continued certain scummy behavior.

There's a lot of fence sitting, no accusations without votes, and letting us know that you find the entire town null--which helps no one, but is scummy because it stalls suspicion.

[Ghostlin]

shrug

no point arguing now, though I have some reasons in my head.
Btw, I actually chased a lead towards the end with Mer saying he wanted to keep his hands clean. That made my null read appear scummish until he claimed.

Idc as long as town win.

If you townie's don't win you have me to answer to

anyways, I'll be sure to repay the favour sometime
JK

~Twistedspoon

Off the game: hang around, read what goes on, scream at your computer screen a little and stay for the afterparty at the end of the game.

[Ghostlin]

[quote= "Mute"]From a scum perspective: Okay, if we buy his claim then there's at least one PR; setup is mostly revealed.
From a town perspective: Okay, if we buy his claim then there's at least one PR; setup is partially revealed.
The problem I have is only scum would know anything for certain.[/quote]

If Mer lives through today and claims he's blocked, two --likely-- possibilites exist:

1) He's a PR and we have two PR's in the game if we accept his supposition. Newbie games have four setups, and only two have RBs: both PRs, or no PRs.

2) He's lying scum and we should try to get a claim out of him and see if he gets countered from there, and it can be any number of setups.

[Ghostlin]

anyways, now that I'm dead who are your top scum reads?
I'd like to think I've helped the town in some way through my death.

I'm VT if you haven't already firgured it out :/

Regardless: Charlie, and Mer.

[Ghostlin]

triple Ninja'd:

keep him alive? what if that's what the mafia want us to do.

Assuming he isn't mafia the mafia could just RB him and thus make him seem scum by having a claimed PR still alive.
Assuming he is mafia we should lynch him.

really don't know why he softclaimed at all. It doesn't answer my question at all and there was no hammer on him

This and all other posts claiming that I was not in a tight situation, I WAS actually. Before softclaiming, I was at L-2, and a lot of people were rethinking Ts' scumminess (who was at L-2 too).

In short, yes, I was at risk. But the good part (for you at least) is that, given my self endangerment, I can now scumhunt and vote without consequence!

Still looking for slips, tho...

Wrong.
Check out my newbie game where I was doc. I was lynched for the same thing you're doing now. You're in suspect.

This. You're also a liability in lylo situtaitons.

[Ghostlin]

Everyone should read 1024. It's also got an instructional piece of the thread called 'How to lose the game in Lylo.'

[Ghostlin]

I am the type of person who does not like to use meta, but that is the meta of the site. If you do things that are anti-town you'll be lynched for them for being a liability to town.

TS will die. If he is a townie, and at night the goons manage to kill another townie, we will be 5 versus 2. And in a 5 versus 2 situation, you can't exactly lynch someone for being a liability, you gotta lynch people that might consistently be scum.

...

I'm just going to wait for the mod to initiate N1. This reminds me too much of something I'm not going to discuss further as it's on-going.

Suggested Reading:

Newbie 1024:

How the most protown players are not always your friends in Lylo. Town Loss. Also, why you should probably not openly claim anything, or point to a soft claim.

Mini Theme, No Exit Mafia:

Why you should hammer the person you're surprised is alive at Lylo. Town Win.

These are both games I've been in, both complete, and they're minis so only 30+ instead of 200+ pages long.

[Ghostlin]

@Dazzy: Don't head into NK terrority yet, full of WIFOM. Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor? He didn't claim as much as I read. That's suspicious you'd say so. Also, Mute's on the right track with his suspicions with Mer.

@Mer: Full claim. Targets. Now.

@Charlie: Why Mute? (I'm echoing Dazzy now.)

The Mer wagon seems full at the moment, so I'm not voting, but my vote for Mer does hinge on his full claim and target.

[Ghostlin]

@Mute: Do you mind elaborating on Mer's scumminess? You seem quite convinced and I obviously don't see what you do to the same extent.

I'll try to keep it nice and trim.
Him being alive is WIFOM.

Factoids:
He claimed a PR D1 (I don't recall him ever specifying what role exactly)
TS was indeed a VT.
He said that there were two goons in the setup. (This isn't anything solid as he might very well be a townie guessing as to the setup. Doing so in D1 along with his other play doesn't sit well with me. (BTW the parenthesis are personal thoughts and inputs.))

Scenario A: He is town. He is says he was RB'd N1.
A1: He is cop and he was RB'd. ("Hey guise I'm a cop but I got RB'd N1 so I got nothing.")
A2: He is Doc.
A2a: He was RB'd and chose to protect Forseti ("Hey guise I'm doc but my protect was blocked")
A2b: He was RB'd and chose to protect someone else ("Hey guise I protected someone else")

Scenario B: He's scum gambiting.

It's too easy for him to follow any of the 'A' scenarios and use them to try and prove his innocence. 'B' makes more sense to me. Until we get either a RB flip or a cop AND doc flip, there is no guarantee there even

is

a scum RB'er this game. So if he wants to form an argument for his innocence based on setup speculation and confusing the town with it I say be my guest scum.

If there're any flaws you can see in this, point them out. For now he's my top scum suspect.

QFT--also, do you want to be debating this at Lylo, folks? I've seen people fakeclaim Cop Day 1 and live to the end of the game.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: A good example of this: Ozzie and Millie Mafia: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16200

It's a little more advanced of a game (Mini Theme) and the game was a touch swingy toward town, but Day 1 showcases what Mute's discussing.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP x2: A thing to mention, that game is complete, so it's OK to link to it. If you are in an ongoing game, site rules essentally say do not link or mention it in another game. I am using it as an example, but it also showcases more of my meta.

[Ghostlin]

This just in: rereading Charlie, I'm pretty sure he's not scum after all. Reprising to a null.

Also: Mer, I have a few issues with this:
1) I can understand drawing the night kill, I really can, but you point out the soft claim. This negates any power your softclaim had.
2)

The point IS, that your likeliness of being cop combined with the fact that there must be a doctor, which has been hardly represented, leads to this conclusion: no power roles, at all.

Nice rolefishing. You do realize there are two setups where there is either 1) a cop, or 2) a doctor, without the existance of the other.
3) You voted me because I hammered? Is there anything particularly scummy you find buy my hammer, or do you find hammering scummy?
4) Your last statement, whether or not you meant to be an AtE is one.
5) The rest of that is WIFOM. I'm not even going to pick out the WIFOM, it'd be a waste of my time, it's doused in it.

[Ghostlin]

1) The Roleblocker thing is far from confirmed, since I'm not sure you'd recieve anything if they blocked a VT.

2) How was my hammer scummy?

[Ghostlin]

King: The article comprises of #277, 278, and 280. You can read them if you'd like. I don't have much more to say about the matter. I thought the entire day TS was scum, so I hammered him instead of continuing to debate the same points over and over. The Mer issue didn't seem like it was going to resolve itself until today, which is what we're talking about.

I am sorry that TS flipped town, but frankly, if you're wanting much more remorse out of me for hammering...sorry, no. Someone had to at some point. Town was going nowhere and we were circling the wagons, unless you wanted to lynch the supposed PR Day 1 and deny whatever information we might of gotten from Mer's flip? (He didn't. That's pretty convincing. Now when he's confronted with it, he says he was faking it to draw the NK/RB. That sounds like a scum that doesn't want to commit to a gambit to me.) There was less time and more information when I did it on Page 12, then you threatened to do on Page 6 or 7.

I did want to see what would happen in that gamestate, and I don't think it was a waste. We have a scum claiming PR and going 'wait, I didn't mean to say it was a PR.'

Plus, I'm not convinced you're committed to this accusation and are just trying to pull suspicion off of Mer. Where's your vote?

[Ghostlin]

King: Why should I apologize for something I thought at the time if I eliminated them it'd bring me close to my wincon? Eyes on the prize and all that. That may be a jerkish thing to say, but I expect all players, particularly scum, to try to win the game. (Have fun doing it, but that's acutally immaterial to the winning of the game).

About the RB: Three possibilites with anyone who softclaims a role: 1) They die. 2) They're RBed. 3) They're scum. Guess which of these possibilties I think is most likely in Mer's case? You don't leave Cops and Doctors alive if you know they exist, or you pull their teeth. Scum may be setting up for NK, but if you have a good doctor like Mute was last time we played, you're better off killing them.

About Mer: 'Hey guys, I'm VT fakeclaiming a PR,' is awful play.

Mute: Question related to 1024: Do you realize you're making a similar argument to what I did back then when you claimed Doc day 2 and didn't die? Do you think that was inheriently a bad argument?

[Ghostlin]

@Meransiel: It has already been explained, but I want to emphasize this:- we don't have an edit feature in our games because it's too easy to edit out "slips". Besides, can you imagine the confusion it would cause if everyone edited their posts?

Your "truth" is WIFOM and without a doubt AtE. I'm sorry, but your statements are not very credible.
How does figuring out if there is a cop/doc/roleblocker ever helpful to Town? Way I see it, only Mafia has anything to gain from knowing.

Setup confirmation (which is null: it benefits both town and scum equally), massclaim (which wouldn't happen yet.). Only reasons I can think of.

I agree with the end of your post. Let's lynch the claimed VT that softclaimed a powerrole. His flip will be informative, even if it puts us closer to lylo (which, guys, ANY lynch at this point would.)

VOTE: Mer

[Ghostlin]

Eh, seems my death is inevitable then. Just...don't let Ghostlin fool you, guys. And, I wish you good luck at lylo!

You're giving up at L-2?

I take it back. That's not scummy at all. *sarcasm*

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Last I checked, you had Charlie and Mute on you, Mute unvoted you, I wasn't willing to put you L-1 in the day, so when I unvoted you, I voted you to match my primary suspicion for the day. You are two votes away from lynch. If you're town, plenty of time to turn this around. If you are scum, then goodbye.

[Ghostlin]

Btw, I said any lynch would move us into Lylo eariler, I misspoke. Any non-scum lynch would move us there.

[Ghostlin]

My reads (from beginning of Day 2):

Town: Mute, TClawren
Leaning Town: Charlie
You're still playing this game?: Dazzy
Scummish: King
Oh, MY GOD KILL IT WITH FIRE SCUM: Mer

Dazzy's gone kinda quiet compared to the end of Day 1--that's the player I'm acutally most concerned about their status in that, he's slipped.

King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.

Mute's acutally picked up in activity and still reads fairly town, and Charlie and TClaw have improved their status (particularly TClaw over the lamentable FarmeriXi).

[Ghostlin]

King:

@ Mer: Who did you

protect

last night and why?

From Dazzy's wall. Bolded portion mine. I then posted this:

@Dazzy: Don't head into NK terrority yet, full of WIFOM.

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read. That's suspicious you'd say so. Also, Mute's on the right track with his suspicions with Mer.

This is the post you claimed I rolefished on. Dazzy gave the information that Mer protected someone. Not targetted, not investigated, protected. Out of all the options, and considering Mer never claimed to be doc in his softclaim that I could of read (and the man himself said he was softclaiming a PR, NOT Doctor specfically).

So, to recap what I did in this post: Certain player asked if it was early for nightkill speculation. Understanding what I know from previous games, I had said it was. My next post was a simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them. I then asked the player exactly what they meant by that, and got an answer. An interesting stretch to misrep me, tho'. Maybe you're trying too hard?

Anyway, as it stands, I feel that Mer's a good lynch for the day. Mer's done what normal people would accuse of rolefishing, and the only other case you have is my hammer, which most of town agrees is quite townie. Certainly, if we're both around Day 3, you can find more convincing evidence about your case.

Of course, in tabulating any case, I recommend a PBP, remembering what was said in context. Perhaps, if anyone needs one I can assist with giving out one of my own?

[Ghostlin]

...

...

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read.

That's suspicious you'd say so.

...

...
My next post was a

simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

...

Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor.

That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor. Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the

scum

are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it. (1)

Hmph, Mer has been more scummy than you though. Fakeclaiming before death and then saying he is a VT, ugh...

Also you didn't answer my "What the heck are you talking about" question, you know, the one that asks why, if you think I am trying to protect Mer because we are scumbuddies, that you are only going to be looking into me if he turns out to be town.

Also, King.

The issue is that Mer claimed there were two

goons

, not simply scum. This is seen in his ISO 26, as pointed out in Mute's #310

Seemed like something quick I could clear up.

Oooooh. Yeah, that is really suspicious.


I just want to make it official here: I agree that Mer has to die, he has been far to scummy to let live. I have merely been apprehensive about it because my other big scum read is Ghostlin, and there is no way both of them are scum.

Eh, seems my death is inevitable then. Just...don't let Ghostlin fool you, guys. And, I wish you good luck at lylo!

You're giving up at L-2?

I take it back. That's not scummy at all. *sarcasm*

Mute said he would hammer if he got to L-1, so he was essentially at L-1 at that point. The only reason Mer hasn't been hammered yet is that the mod hasn't made an official vote-count that says "L-1" on it. (2)

BLAH NINJAD

1) Dazzy's not the cop though. He just admitted he wasn't the Cop. You presumed he was the Cop, when there's been nothing to support it. Secondly, if scum agreed to play off each other fakeclaim in their quicktopic, it could be they agreed that Mer should claim Doc and that was a scum slip. Hence the question. There'd be no reason for a comment like that to be made since the words 'keeping my hands clean' could mean anything: he needed a protect target the next day, he needed suspects for an investigation target...it means virtually nothing.

2) It wasn't L-1 when I made my vote, and it was blunt that Mer rolled over and died, as I pointed out. Yes, Mute just hammered, but honestly, he could used that post to formulate a defense.

[Ghostlin]

Eh, dead, then. Wonder if you'll manage...let me say a few things.

1. I stated about a dozen times there is a rb, NOT 2 goons.
2. I was not rolefishing. I was stating my whole, absolute opinion about the absence of PRs, because I DON'T think there are any.
3. Ghostlin is so obvscum it hurts. I'm surprised you can't see it. She is constantly sporting the 'it is always good to lynch' and 'no matter if we lynch a townie, it would still benefit us' concepts like there's no tomorrow, because she KNOWS townies will die. Why? Simple, because she is not the one being lynched.

Meh, not that you people would listen or anything...

Your last point makes me lol. Here's some mafia wisdom for you:

It is always good to lynch during days in this game. There is absolutely ONE time you No Lynch, and that's MyLo. At no time you should never NOT vote for the scum candidate and town should take it to lynch, even if it's not a candidate you don't agree on.

The maximum benefit of a lynch is information. Information should be and can be analyzed, remarked on and wagons should be remarked on. You do NOT lose the game for your faction if you are dead, even if you're a power role. (Only exceptions to that is not present in a newbie game.) The game is still anyone's up to and including Lylo. Until that last vote is cast, no one has lost the game yet. It is infinitely better to lynch scum, but you should always lynch someone. Frankly, I feel you are scum, like I felt TS was scum during the last Twilight.

So yes, I do laugh at your assertion that wanting a lynch is scummy, along with the fact you get no information from a townie lynch. Neither of these are true, and in a good 90% of cases, town will always want to lynch.

[Ghostlin]

Eh, dead, then. Wonder if you'll manage...let me say a few things.

1. I stated about a dozen times there is a rb, NOT 2 goons.
2. I was not rolefishing. I was stating my whole, absolute opinion about the absence of PRs, because I DON'T think there are any.
3. Ghostlin is so obvscum it hurts. I'm surprised you can't see it. She is constantly sporting the 'it is always good to lynch' and 'no matter if we lynch a townie, it would still benefit us' concepts like there's no tomorrow, because she KNOWS townies will die. Why? Simple, because she is not the one being lynched.

Meh, not that you people would listen or anything...

Your last point makes me lol. Here's some mafia wisdom for you:

It is always good to lynch during days in this game. There is absolutely ONE time you No Lynch, and that's MyLo. At no time you should never NOT vote for the scum candidate and town should take it to lynch, even if it's not a candidate you don't agree on.

The maximum benefit of a lynch is information. Information should be and can be analyzed, remarked on and wagons should be remarked on. You do NOT lose the game for your faction if you are dead, even if you're a power role. (Only exceptions to that is not present in a newbie game.) The game is still anyone's up to and including Lylo. Until that last vote is cast, no one has lost the game yet. It is infinitely better to lynch scum, but you should always lynch someone. Frankly, I feel you are scum, like I felt TS was scum during the last Twilight.

So yes, I do laugh at your assertion that wanting a lynch is scummy, along with the fact you get no information from a townie lynch. Neither of these are true, and in a good 90% of cases, town will always want to lynch.

Good job strawmanning my argument. Too bad I'm on the phone right now and not able to type a decent case. Alas, some short headings.

First, I didn't say lynching is bad. If that was the point, I would be attacking everyone, not just you.

It's the nonchalant way you say in advance that a town death won't be detrimental, covering what you appear to know are failures. All those 'if clauses' you constantly use...

Also, about information, I agree that if I flip scum, this will give you a lot of info and advantage. But if I flip town, what info will you get, specifically? And yes, I demand an answer. But only from you. Other people, please ignore the question.

I

never

said a town death won't be determental. I said it will be informative. Huge difference between the two. Before you accuse someone of straw manning your arguments, try not to do the same. That's a blatant misrep and if you're town, really bad rhetoric. If you're scum, good job.

If you flip town, and I'm not convinced of that still: we can analyze the wagons from Day 1 and Day 2, read over what's been said about both lynches, and the flip also gives out information that town can use. Fact is, you softclaimed a power role, and admitting you didn't have one, which means you actually did lie to us and you should always lynch a player you can prove lied to you about an important piece of information. Scum lie. Townies have no need to lie. That's really obvious; and a question of what the hell you might say in lylo or another under the gun situation you find helpful that keeps your skin intact.

(Yes, I believe in lynch all liars.)

King: I asked him point blank how he would know Mer was the doctor because he used the word

protect

. Not

target

, not

investigate

. Are you trying to twist that into a pretzel for your own purposes, or are you ignoring the assertion that he used that word in reference to Mer when Mer didn't bring it up and we both know it? There's such a thing as scum slips. I was applying pressure to see if he slipped. I

NEVER

asked Dazzy his role, and he volunteered cop on his own. There were a million ways Dazzy could of answered the question without revealing role information, and he didn't reveal said information until three posts later

without my prompting.

In fact, wasn't it you that said "well, if Dazzy's the cop, he would automatically assume that the other role was the doctor." There's some veiled rolefishing for you.

A good cop would never assume the other PR talked about was Doctor with the prevalence of scum, he'd keep his mouth shut for the day in case he needed to counterclaim.

Going 'Hey, how do you know that [piece of information not readily available to town]?' IS NOT ROLEFISHING. That's essentially what I asked, but you know, keep pounding that rhetoric there. It seems to work for you, scum.

Also, as for your second part of that: there's more than one misrep done here. Mer's lied to the town. This makes him scummy. TS acted scummy. With the information we had at the time, no, I've not been sad to be part of either wagon. I'm not certain that Mer's VT at this point, but you sure as hell are sure.

[Ghostlin]

OK, Folks. Time for massclaim, we're in lylo, now's the time. Way I've always heard this done is we say who we find the scummiest, and majority has that person go first. They then choose someone to claim, and then someone else, so on and so forth.

The last two nights and lynches have sucked, let's hope we can sort this out.

I nominate King to go first.

[Ghostlin]

Popcorn style.

Isn't that popcorn? Town decides who's the most scummy, they choose the next person to go?

[Ghostlin]

Ah 'tis good to be back. Y'know, minus the bodies and such...

Mass claim eh? An interesting idea. I'll give my somewhat-reluctant approval, mainly because I have my own thoughts on the topic and I'm not sure I understand the strategic benefit of it for town.
[In terms of the "who's most scummy" part, is this where we make cases, or do we all just blurt out a name?]

Either way, I'll take the time we spend deciding to do a reread.

You mention who you would like to claim.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: You generally want the scummist players to go first, so in case they claim a PR and someone else has it, they can counter claim.

[Ghostlin]

Claim: Cop

Investigations: Charlie is town. King is scum. That order, and I was not blocked either night. I

will

die tonight, but I did catch one of the scum last night. (The depressing thing is I should of investigated someone I thought town the second night, but this actually is my first rodeo as an investigative role: anyone BUT tclawren that's currently playing flipping town would of told me both scum, not just one.)

I fully expect to be counterclaimed, odds are by King or his scum buddy, so here's evidence I'm the cop:

1) I leave a breadcrumb on last two pages of 361

. I do fuck it up a little, spelling the word 'am' twice, but highlighting the first letter of the second paragraph and going on down:

S

o, to recap what I did in this post:

C

ertain player asked if it was early for nightkill speculation.

U

nderstanding what I know from previous games, I had said it was.

M

y next post was a simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

I

then asked the player exactly what they meant by that, and got an answer.

A

n interesting stretch to misrep me, tho'.

M

aybe you're trying too hard?

A

nyway, as it stands, I feel that Mer's a good lynch for the day.

M

er's done what normal people would accuse of rolefishing, and the only other case you have is my hammer, which most of town agrees is quite townie.

C

ertainly, if we're both around Day 3, you can find more convincing evidence about your case.

O

f course, in tabulating any case, I recommend a PBP, remembering what was said in context.

P

erhaps, if anyone needs one I can assist with giving out one of my own?

SCUM. I AM (AM) COP. The SCUM part is in reply to King, who was my next investigation and indeed, it turns out I was right.

2. My reversal of my Charlie read beginning of Day 2.

I rode Charlie and Twisted hard the first day. Then I go 'rereading his first posts of Day 2, I feel Charlie's not scum after all. Reprising to a null.' I never mention in text Charlie is scum again. I had received the investigation, so I knew that Charlie was our confirmed innocent. In fact, I upgrade him through out the day in a way that doesn't arouse suspicion.

3. Being so paranoid about rolefishing, yet try to get a counterclaim out there.

I admit this openly, but that's because I knew Mer was passing a bad bill of goods (all vanillas, my ass), had soft claimed a PR when he didn't have one, lying to town. I ask Dazzy about him claiming doctor for Mer really for a few reasons: 1) Mer hadn't claimed and I wanted to hear his claim, and Dazzy pulls out the 'Mer is doctor' thing. Again, could be either powerrole and

I know who the Cop is

. So, yes, I accused him of having information town wouldn't know because he pretty much, you know, claimed it. (Also, if Dazzy had, in fact been the roleblocker, he might of slipped and teleprompted who he blocked Day 1.) It's in my PM Vel sent at the beginning of the game. It's the whole reason why I stirred the pot Day 1 about role fishing with Charlie, I didn't want to be outed as the Cop.

4. The TS hammer.

Probably the most debated thing I had done this game, and I did do it for the same reasons I outline at the end of Day 1: I also did it it because the majority of town would see it as town play, yet scummy enough to be considered a possible lynch Day 2 so scum wouldn't Night Kill me. (A power role does town little good if the power role's dead.) I also wanted to investigate Charlie, eliminating two suspects off the list. The bummer thing was Mer was town gambitting instead of scum gambitting, and so I was wrong Day 2 about my suspicions on him. (I'm a Cop, not God.) I don't kill soft claimed power roles that are dumb enough to be outed the same night. I let scum do it for me, and if they're still alive a day that's not Lylo, I lynch them. Which I did, and was wrong. Lynch all liars isn't a 100% thing, but you do catch more scum than town that way.

5. I waited until massclaim to open this up.

I could of outed King with my first post, protected Charlie Day 2: there's no gain in doing so until now. Until you're in a Lynch or Lose situation where you all claim, can name the last scum, or are at L-1, you never claim your PR. Ever. Even when it gives you information no one else except scum is privy to.

I

am

going to vote for my scum investigation:

KingTwelveSixteen

, and demand he go next.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP:

Vote:KingTwelveSixteen

[Ghostlin]

...
King: I asked him point blank how he would know Mer was the doctor because he used the word

protect

. Not

target

, not

investigate

. Are you trying to twist that into a pretzel for your own purposes, or are you ignoring the assertion that he used that word in reference to Mer when Mer didn't bring it up and we both know it?

There's such a thing as scum slips. I was applying pressure to see if he slipped.

I

NEVER

asked Dazzy his role, and he volunteered cop on his own. There were a million ways Dazzy could of answered the question without revealing role information, and he didn't reveal said information until three posts later

without my prompting.

In fact, wasn't it you that said "well, if Dazzy's the cop, he would automatically assume that the other role was the doctor." There's some veiled rolefishing for you.
...

Going 'Hey, how do you know that [piece of information not readily available to town]?' IS NOT ROLEFISHING.

That's essentially what I asked

, but you know, keep pounding that rhetoric there. It seems to work for you, scum.

Also, as for your second part of that:

there's more than one misrep done here. Mer's lied to the town. This makes him scummy. TS acted scummy.

With the information we had at the time, no, I've not been sad to be part of either wagon. I'm not certain that Mer's VT at this point, but you sure as hell are sure.

1. Except you only applied pressure at one point and didn't continue to push him, or express in suspicion of him, or even

mention

him after the original post, if you actually thought it was a scum-slip you would have, I don't know, actually showed signs of thinking that he was scum?

2. It is rolefishing if one of the only ways you could know the info is if you are the cop.

3. You did not ask, you accused. Odd that you said you were pushing him earlier in the post when in would make you seem less like scum, but at the other points in the post you try to make it sound less notable by saying you were just asking a question.

4. "It's ok for me to misrep because the person I am misrepping is scummy!" Yeah, that is essentially what you are saying here.


I nominate Ghostlin to go first.

1.

Misrep AGAIN

. Mer had all but fake claimed a PR at this point and said, 'I made it up.' You can't vote the most scummy person and someone you find mildly suspicious (or does something mildly suspicious) at the same time in this game.

2. Doesn't make any sense under a microscope. Yes, I am the Cop, but I don't get role information so I wouldn't know Mer was a doctor from Santa. I could infer it, but why would I when I could counterclaim him? If Dazzy had claimed Cop, I would of known he was lying. At no point did Dazzy claim cop, and admitted in twilight he wasn't. Mer hadn't claimed at this point, so we didn't know what PR he was, so why was Dazzy trying to claim for him?

Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim.

In a 2 Goons setup, that is entirely possible.

3. I accused Dazzy of having information he didn't have, which he

admitted

to? This point is blatant tunneling at it's finest.

4. Let me ask you a yes or no question, since you seem to do better with those: You did or did not hint that Dazzy knowing Mer was the Doctor was because Dazzy was the Cop?

[Ghostlin]

King, answer me this. If I and Mer were so scummy you had to point out our blantant rolefishing (and I'll note again, since you're deaf to this, all I did was point to a fallacy (?) in Dazzy's reasoning that he said Mer was the Doctor) why didn't you vote at all Day 2? You tunnelled me for the entire day and didn't cast a single vote on anyone. You almost entirely attempted to keep your hands utterly clean of the Mer lynch while accusing me and not voting.

MULTI-POST-ULTIMATE-COMBO-MATIC-MACHINEGhostlin wrote:
...
Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim. In a 2 Goons setup, that is entirely possible.
...
Two goons? Oh, I wonder how you know there isn't a roleblocker, hmm?

Because I didn't get Charlie's post yet, obvscum. If Charlie is telling the truth, and I believe he is

since unlike you, I have an innocent on him,

there is in fact a RB and he did draw Mer the first day.

As for the 2 Goons assertion, up until Charlie claimed, I didn't know there was a doctor in the setup, I was kinda guessing since I though Mer was scum at the time, he'd fakeclaim my role and I'd counterclaim. What I meant there, misrepping scumtard, is that if there's a setup with two Goons in it, there's a 50% chance that scum chooses a role that is not occupied by another player. (You even ADMIT THIS in #417, so you know EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.) If you weren't tunnelling so ferciously, you'd know that in your brain of yours or reading the first post that Vel made.

Bluntly, I have nothing to hide: you know as well as I do that you had

no reason for not voting

Day 2. Mer was already a scum suspect, if the vote count of Day 1 was to be believed, but you never went back to him. I imagine you were pissed because he claimed a PR and you couldn't get him to L-1 to claim which one we had, so you went to your next obvious suspect, me, making my hammer look scummy and selectively ignoring the reasons why I cast it in the first place. You also ignored the fact that you had threatened, the beginning of Day 1 to cast TS's hammer, and only stopped when I pointed out that looked horrensously scummy, with less reasons than I, so you're entire case on that hammer is scummy and moot. The rest of the posts you've made are so full of WIFOM and rhetoric we might choke on it.

Thing is, you could only get one vote, so you decided not to ride that wagon to keep your hands clean of the Mer mislynch. (Vc's, end of Day 1 and Day 2).

Should I quote your post where you were willing to lynch TS on Page 6 or 7?

As for your partner: you've just distancted Mute and haven't talked about Dazzy...at all for a while. I'd say Dazzy because you agreed with the thought there was worse thing Dazzy could of done than hammer in agreement with me earlier during Day 1. Mute still reads town to me, frankly, which is why I didn't investigate him. Dazzy's had spurts of activity/inactivity, and so would make a better partner to lurk while King tries to raise fervor on mislynches, but I'm not going to rule out Mute either.

Charlie, if this flips RB, protect me tonight and I'll investigate either Mute or Dazzy. (I'll flip a coin.) I'll know for sure, because scum will have to kill one of us, they must. This'll lock the game. You ARE innocent. You are a confirmed innocent, so I can trust you. In fact, you're the only one in town I can trust 100% right now. Doesn't mean you're right, but I will NOT support a Charlie lynch AT ALL tonight, and you'll have to lynch me for the lose first.

[Ghostlin]

@ Ghost: In your opinion, why would a claimed PR not be killed by the Mafia? (In general. I'd really appreciate it if you would avoid using very specific examples from this game).

Generally speaking: you either have a roleblocker, or the person claiming the role is scum. The other scenario of 'praying for a mislynch' is loaded with WIFOM, and most scumteams won't optimally go for it: if you let the cop live, there's always a threat of an investigation where the cop clears one or more townies or the cop outs you as scum. Frankly, Doctors are bad too, because good ones can buy town another half a day or even a full day with two protects over the course of the game. The longer a PR survives, the longer you have to entertain it's scum.

I've had a ok record with trying to detect the above. In Newbie 1024; I convinced town to lynch a Doctor who outed himself Day 2 (Mute), and claimed he was blocked N2. Unfortuantely, he was the real doctor.

In Ozzie and Millie I screamed, whined and begged to kill a "Cop" who claimed Day 1 most of the game and then claimed each night he'd been RB. When the Cop was killed by the Vig the last night, he flipped scum.

[Ghostlin]

...
I'd say Dazzy because you agreed with the thought there was worse thing Dazzy could of done than hammer in agreement with me earlier during Day 1
...

Ghost, can you clarify what you mean here please? I can't tell if you're accusing me of something or not, and would like to understand this part of your argument as it relates to King.

Damn. That might have been GXW. It was GXW. Ignore that. I'm tiredposting.

The relevant point here is that King hasn't accused or praised you of anything. As far as I know, he doesn't have any opinion on you either way, while he believes quite sincerely Mute is my scum buddy....which echoes what you said as well.

[Ghostlin]

...
I'd say Dazzy because you agreed with the thought there was worse thing Dazzy could of done than hammer in agreement with me earlier during Day 1
...

Ghost, can you clarify what you mean here please? I can't tell if you're accusing me of something or not, and would like to understand this part of your argument as it relates to King.

Damn. That might have been GXW. It was GXW. Ignore that. I'm tiredposting.

The relevant point here is that King hasn't accused or praised you of anything. As far as I know, he doesn't have any opinion on you either way, while he believes quite sincerely Mute is my scum buddy....which echoes what you said as well.

EBWOP: As sincerely as a scumtard setting up mislynches can

sincerely believe anything

.

[Ghostlin]

Vote analysis: Formatted with the information I know

Vote Count 1.2

Twistedspoon

- 2 (

gxw

, Dazzy)
gxw - 2 (

KingTwelveSixteen

,

Twistedspoon

)
Mute - 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 4 (

Charlie

,

FarmeriXi

,

Forseti

, Mute)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #6 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:43 pm

Vote Count 1.3

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw,

Dazzy

,

Charlie

)

gxw-

1 (

KingTwelveSixteen

)

Charlie

- 2 (Mute, Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 3 (

FarmeriXi[/quote],

Forseti[/quote],

Twistedspoon[/quote])


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #7 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:43 pm

Vote Count 1.4

[quote=#00BF00]Twistedspoon[/quote] - 3 ([quote=#00BF00]gxw[/quote], Dazzy,

Charlie[/quote])

Charlie[/quote] - 4 (Mute, Ghostlin,

Twistedspoon

,

KingTwelveSixteen

)

KingTwelveSixteen[/quote] - 1 (

FarmeriXi[/quote])

Not Voting - 1 ([quote=#00BF00]Forseti[/quote])


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #8 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:16 pm

Sorry guys, I was out of town for the weekend and forgot to post the V/LA.


Vote Count 1.5

Twistedspoon

- 4 ([color=00BF00]gxw

, [color=00BF00]Charlie

, [color=00BF00]Forseti

, Mute)

Charlie

- 2 (Ghostlin, [color=00BF00]Twistedspoon[/quote])

KingTwelveSixteen

- 1 (FarmeriXi)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy,

KingTwelveSixteen

)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #10 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:56 am

Vote Count 1.6

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw

,

Forseti

, Mute)

Charlie

- 1 (Ghostlin)

KingTwelveSixteen

- 1 (

FarmeriXi

)
gxw - 1 (

Charlie

)

Not Voting - 3 (Dazzy,

KingTwelveSixteen

,

Twistedspoon

)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #11 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:44 am

Vote Count 1.7

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

gxw[/quote],

Forseti[/quote], Mute)

Charlie

- 1 (Ghostlin)

KingTwelveSixteen[/quote] - 1 (color=#00BF00]FarmeriXi[/quote])
gxw - 1 ([quote=00BF00]Charlie[/quote])
[quote=00BF00]FarmeriXi - 1[/quote] (

KingTwelveSixteen[/quote])

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy,

Twistedspoon[/quote])


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-----------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #15 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:13 pm

Vote Count 1.8

Twistedspoon

- 3 (

tclawren

,

Forseti

, Mute)

tclawren

- 2 (

Charlie[/quote], Ghostlin)
[color=#00BF00]Meransiel

- 1 ((

KingTwelveSixteen

)

No Lynch - 1 ([Color=#00BF000]Meransiel

)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, [Color=#00BF000]Twistedspoon

)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #16 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:24 pm

Vote Count 1.9

[Color=#00BF000]Twistedspoon - 3[/quote] ([Color=#00BF000]Forseti

, Mute, Dazzy)

Meransiel

- 2 (

KingTwelveSixteen

, [Color=#00BF000]tclawren

)
[Color=#00BF000]Forseti - 1 ([Color=#00BF000]Twistedspoon

)
[Color=#00BF000]Charlie

- 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 2 ([color=00Bf000]Charlie

, [color=00Bf000]Meransiel

)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #17 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:42 pm

Vote Count 1.10

[color=00Bf000]Twistedspoon

- 5 ([color=00Bf000]Forseti[/color], Mute, Dazzy, [color=00Bf000]tclawren[/color], Ghostlin)
[color=00Bf000]Meransiel[/color] - 2 (

KingTwelveSixteen[/quote],

Twistedspoon

)

Not Voting - 2 (

Charlie

,

Meransiel

)


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Vel-Rahn Koon

Virginia's Trump


Joined : March 01, 2007
Location: Wake Forest University
Gender: Male Report this postReply with quote Post #20 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:20 am

Vote Count 2.1

Meransiel

- 4 (

Charlie

, Mute, Ghostlin,

tclawren

)
Ghostlin - 1 ((

Meransiel

)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, (

KingTwelveSixteen

)


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-------

Notes:

Green is town, Red is scum, and I included my investigations in these VCs. I did not highlight myself as town, because it's only obvious to one person, which is me.

Analysis:

The one person who's ridden most of the wagons and was on Day 1 and Day 2 lynches is Mute. This would make him, according to the evidence, most likely to be King's scum buddy at this point, and my investigation target going into Night 3, since most of the time, scum will place at least one of their own members among the wagons. I would call my list like this now looking at this data:

Town: Dazzy, Charlie

Scum: KingTwelveSixteen, Mute (for investigation purposes)

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Well, crap. Half my color tags broke, and that was good stuff too.

[Ghostlin]

1. Because there's no way he would of known that unless he was trying to get us to accept the Mer as doctor. At the time, Mer hadn't claimed doctor. So there was no reason Dazzy would of known that. Let me repeat this again for you: Dazzy. had. no. reason. to. know. he. was. the. doctor. This was mildly suspicious, so I accused him of information no one, not even the Cop, would have.

You implied much later that Dazzy was probably the Cop, not me. I was accusing him of having information that could quite possibly be scummy. I've not 'ignored' anything about this: I dropped it mostly because of the Mer lynch and your claims.

2. 3 proves that you had plenty of time to place a vote on either me or Mer. That entire block is from Day 2. You're even contradicting yourself, and now you've hedged your bets on no less than three people.

3. You have time for all that wall of text, a wall of text on me, and to 'say some stuff on Charlie' as well, and you can't cast a preliminary vote? Let me teach you how:

Vote: Person X.

All you do is fill in Person's X's name and bold it after posting. There's no reason if you're going to type accusations, you can't back them up with a vote. Not doing so is scumtastic.

4. Day 3's claims. I expected to be the only PR to claim. Which lead me to believe in a Two Goons setup, due to something you said WIFOMY about leaving a softclaimed PR alive for lynch purposes. Since I know you're scum, I thought you we using that bit of BS to explain why you didn't kill Mer when he pretty much said 'I claimed a PR!' It's suboptimal BS, but not impossible. I was surprised when my confirmed Town claimed the only PR remaining. Since I spent most of Day 1 riding Charlie, it makes sense, NOW, tho'.

5. Except it's the truth, and no one's

acutally

put it in dispute....including you. Are you saying that

both

people who claimed PRs are faking it?

6. Go to the wiki. Look up 'bussing'. Realize why this point is WIFOM. Come back when you understand it.

7. a-b) Except you had time to post walls of text. That entire #3 was about how you made accusations on other people and was from...Day 2. If you had time to post that and a few things that day, you could of added another 11-20 characters to vote. It's really not hard, or time consuming.

c) Why would we want Mer's claim? Frankly, at that point, he was either a PR that screwed the pooch, or likely to be a scum. Pretending to be a PR when you're not is so not optimal play, because as a townie, you're expendable for lynch. I personally didn't want Mer to get to L-1 and be forced to claim MOSTLY because a revealed PR is reasonably useless. You get blocked if there is an RB and you get killed if you don't. In fact, this is the reasoning I used to not to attempt to lynch Mer on Day 1.

d) The hyperbole is at Day 2: you were still pissed at us for lynching Mer, a lynch you supported not much before. You then didn't hop on the wagon, or vote me because you thought my hammer was scummy. Let me illuminate what normal people do when confronted with extremely scummy behavior: they vote. You did not vote. You had at least two options. Stop handing me a line about 'didn't have time'. WHY?

e-f) I'll point this out in another post. I'm going to acutally do a full case on you and this post is already getting long.

8) So you had no intentions on seeing the Mer wagon to lynch? Who else would of you voted for.

9) And you accuse -me- of buddying.





e) I'll point this interaction out later. I said that I didn't like your eagerness to hammer and saying we don't have enough info within two posts of each other. That was the first time you contradicted yourself, and you're

[Ghostlin]

Wow, that is a lot of misrep there.

Ok, finially giving the reason you dropped it, because you wanted to push Mer and I was attacking you, got it. Considering how long it took you to say that though...

Who am I hedging my bets on?

The only scumteam that makes sense to me is the Ghostlin-Mute one and

maybe

Ghostlin-Dazzy but that one is very unlikely.

(1) I had thought I made it obvious already, what with me saying that exact thing earlier.

There were in fact other reasons besides "I didn't get much chance to post" that I listed. Specifically I gave two reasons. ONE FOR EACH POST I MADE THAT I DIDN'T VOTE.

Ah, so it was something scummy

I

did that made you think there were two goons then? Even though you say that it would have been suboptimal for me to do so and you have never brought it up before now?

Crazy misrep. Let me quote what I said: "5. Oh boy, pointing out loudly that you got an innocent on Charlie even though we all know you claimed as much and there was no reason to do so.

Except for buddying up to a townie of course.

"
What part of that makes it seem like I think Charlie is scum? Answer: None of it.

You realise that the only way that is WIFOM is if we are both scum right? And how stupid it is for you to counter my counter against your "tunneling" accusation with that? (2)

I never said I wanted him to fullclaim. I did not suggest that at all. I said I wanted to comment on his claim before the day ended. Nothing in what I have ever said about that topic has ever had to do with him making a fullclaim. It only had to do with being completely unable to even comment on the softclaim.(3)

I was pissed day 2 about us lynching Mer the day before? We lynched TS day 1.

I wasn't going to immediatly lynch Mer in order to push you Ghostlin. Oh, FYI? I would have still lynched Mer, people who fakeclaim like that are just to scummy and unpredictable to let live in LyLo, regardless of how scummy other players are being. I mentioned this day 2. (4)


Yo Ghostlin you still havn't answered this question from way back when: During day 2 you said you suspected me of trying to defend Mer as his scumpartner, but then said that you would only push me if he turned up town. Why did you say this? (5)

1) WIFOM/Misrep. This post makes the assumption that scum always buddy each other in order to cloud the truth since I've pretty much for 90% of this game have had Mute in my town column. It convientently ignores the convential wisdom of bussing. Also, if I'm buddying Mute because he's my scumbuddy, why didn't I clear him instead of Charlie? While both Mute and Charlie can be town, if you use the correllary that I'm setting townies up by buddying them, then Dazzy must be my partner, right? So why, if your town, do you find it unlikely?

Let me distill the question down simplier: If I'm buddying Mute, and I'm buddying Charlie, how is Mutebuddy different than Charliebuddy?

Let me be blunt: Your premise is flawed, or you're leaving holes in it to adjust to whomever you else you might be able to railroad for being my buddy.

2) I know you're a scumtard, you know you're a scumtard trying to accuse me of being a scumtard. However, from a third party perspective, this is WIFOMsque. So advising the new players that is 100% true is misleading. Fact is, I suspect you already know that.

3) Honestly, what would have you said that either wasn't already said in the thread: should we hang him, or let him go to Night? I didn't think letting scum get their hands on another claim (which usually happens as L-1) was wise, even if it was countered, and in this particular case, it would of been disasterous if Mer took his gambit all the way. Explain to me what ninja insight you would of had in the claim that wouldn't have been forcing the claim. Particularly since I was waiting for a more detailed claim (role, nightaction, blocked or not) or Mer's body.

4) You didn't vote like it. You didn't even leave an FoS or HoS that I remember Day 2. (Just checked. You didn't.) You just sorta accused Charlie, Mer and I of being scum without DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Also, your other reasons kinda read 'well, I thought Mer was scum, but I thought you were scum, so I applied pressure to you.' Which, when you distill it down was passive-aggressive waffling without acutally taking a stand either way. You also had a backburner against Charlie, who you now claim is town.

5) Quote me and I'll tell you what I meant by it.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin wrote:
...
King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.
...

If you're refering to this, this is acutally; I think you're scummy for attacking me when Mer picked up steam, however; I'm going to open up myself to the possibilty you're town. Reason why I investigated you, acutally. I thought you were scum, but hoping the investigation would flip town.

Unfortunately, it didn't match my expectations.

...
Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor? He didn't claim as much as I read. That's suspicious you'd say so.
......
My next post was a simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.
...
Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor. That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor.

Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the scum are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it.

Since you go on and on and on about me fishing about the Cop, I'd thought I'd dredge this up. I acutally never mentioned Dazzy-cop in my inital accusation/question...you did, posts later. I was just trying to sift if it was a scumslip (Dazzy-Mer were going to claim Doctor for Mer backstage at the time and Mer ended up claiming VT because the opportunity was ruined) since there's no reason for him to know that. But nice try to make it seem like you weren't rolefishing: 'Well, if Dazzy's the Cop, he'd guess Mer was the Doctor...' (Translation: can I get both PRs to admit it, or find out what the other PR is through a soft or counter claim?)

[Ghostlin]

1) You still don't explain why Mute, someone I've called a town read since Day 1 is different than Charlie, someone I've just recently"buddied" up to.

Oh, and Mutebuddy is different then Charliebuddy in that I have a neutral-town read on Charlie just by himself and a null read on Mute by himself, ON TOP OF THAT your posts buddying Charlie seem to me to be BUDDYING, and not distancing or any of whatever it is you are saying they are.
Oh, and I never said you were buddying Mute.

No, you didn't actually say I was buddying Mute, you just used my protown tell for most of the game for Mute to accuse him as my scumbuddy. You've still not adequately explained why Charlie couldn't be buddies with me. Or Dazzy. In fact, you accept Charlie being town exactly at face value. You accept his innocence exactly without doubt, as if you know he's town without the investigation.

You dance around the specifics, keeping to the periphery as much as possible--you don't specifically say why Mute is a desirable option over Dazzy, or why you accept Charlie's claim 100% when you don't have an investigation or anything remotely resembling that. You just cite 'well, Mute's a null over Dazzy who's null to town.' WHY ARE YOU GETTING THOSE READINGS?

Oh, and where are these tells? I read your ISO. You've not posted a single scum list I could find. NOT ONE.

2 and 3). You said you found Mersianel scummy and then focused on ME pretty exclusively because no one else was. That's what I meant by tunneling. You can't focus on someone and not focus on someone. And for all that focusing, you couldn't still vomit up a vote. It's not hard to post FoS. Or scum lists. In fact, when it was mentioned last Day by tclawren why you didn't accuse me at twilight when you posted your reasons, you posted the WIFOMY excuse that scum would of killed you if you had attacked me that twilight. AtE, specifically, AtF, and scummy AtF since I had no interaction with Foresti at all, and Tclawren didn't accuse me of anything.

4) You brought up the Cop thing. You've been passive aggressively been role fishing and your

last few sentences are a complete retraction of what you've said previous about me fishing for Cop

after loading me with bear and trying to MISREP ME about it. Also, does anyone besides me find it slightly suspicious that Mer's been attributed with calling Dazzy the Cop and claiming himself as doctor when either of these aren't true (as in that's not what he said at all, irregardless of the flip)?

Your note at the end is AtE. I've answered your questions. There's one last question I want to answer, and then I'll relinquish the floor, but I'm trying to keep these posts bite size and easy to swallow.

[Ghostlin]

Why would me attacking you when Mer was being pushed be scummy? The only reason I can think of is that you thought we were scum-buddies and I was protecting him, which is patently ridiculous from the whole "I will be suspicious of you if he flips town" thing.

I wanted to address this alone. First off, the whole argument rang wrong to me. You placed a vote on someone, and suspected them as scummy and then you attack the person who's attacking your suspect? The Chainsaw Defense usually only works on a scum flip, so I concede that's a null tell. Except you sorta indirectly use it to manufacture town cred. Allow me to quote twilight, before the flip.

You know what? This is probobly gonna bite me later on, but I call that

Mer's flip will say Vanilla Townie. Ghostlin just seems far to scummy for Mer to be scum,

and Mer still seems to be talking like he is town even after being hammered...

By accusing me, you get towncred in a Day Three 'I told you so.' By timing your accusation when you did, you could easily cite this, and go 'see, I told you Mer was town. Even when Ghostlin said he wasn't.' You could safely distance yourself from the wagon, keeping your hands clean, or go 'hey guys, Ghostlin quick lynched Dazzy on faulty reasons,' even though I was L-3 on that lynch and I believe Mute hammered.

Oh, and I fully expect you to say I misrepped that quote. Fact is, you called the flip, a lot safer thing to do as scum than town.

[Ghostlin]

Sorry for not putting up anything yesterday, was busy writing out an essay and praying homage to the porcelain gods.

Quick interjection here: Ghost I asked you before but I guess you missed it, so I'll re-ask.
Do you have

any

other breadcrumbs laid out? I'd honestly like to believe your claim, but if you only have that single breadcumb to implicate king, my opinions of you and king are going to be on shaky grounds. =|

The only other "breadcrumb" I have is on Charlie Day 2. I post something like "This just in: Charlie may not be scum after all. Reprising to a null." This is right after the Charlie investigation, and another post during that Day 2 has him upgraded to null, leaning town. Contrast this to Day 1 and the fact that I pretty much ignore Charlie's posts as suspicious at all the entire Day when I mention King, Dazzy, and of course Mer. (Considering I ride the Charlie wagon and only really abandoned it Day 1 to hammer TS, I think that's somewhat telling.)

I also mention the investigate keyword during the Dazzy debacle when it's assumed that Mer is Doctor when King accuses me of rolefishing: I could of just said "he used the word protect instead of target." This one's a bit more iffy.

[Ghostlin]

1) You still don't explain why Mute, someone I've called a town read since Day 1 is different than Charlie, someone I've just recently"buddied" up to.

Oh, and Mutebuddy is different then Charliebuddy in that I have a neutral-town read on Charlie just by himself and a null read on Mute by himself, ON TOP OF THAT your posts buddying Charlie seem to me to be BUDDYING, and not distancing or any of whatever it is you are saying they are.
Oh, and I never said you were buddying Mute.

No, you didn't actually say I was buddying Mute, you just used my protown tell for most of the game for Mute to accuse him as my scumbuddy. You've still not adequately explained why Charlie couldn't be buddies with me. Or Dazzy. In fact, you accept Charlie being town exactly at face value. You accept his innocence exactly without doubt, as if you know he's town without the investigation.

You dance around the specifics, keeping to the periphery as much as possible--you don't specifically say why Mute is a desirable option over Dazzy, or why you accept Charlie's claim 100% when you don't have an investigation or anything remotely resembling that. You just cite 'well, Mute's a null over Dazzy who's null to town.' WHY ARE YOU GETTING THOSE READINGS?

Oh, and where are these tells? I read your ISO. You've not posted a single scum list I could find. NOT ONE.

Nope, I never did post a scum-list. And I have felt Dazzy was pretty solidly town from the start, it is Charlie who is the null-town read.

And I think that Charlie scum-team with you is incorrect because of your buddying towards him, as I have mentioned several times already if you cared to read my posts. I also said that I thought Dazzy was town from the start as well, and that is why I think a Ghostlin-Dazzy scumteam is unlikely. In case you don't care to count, that leaves, by process-of-elimination, Mute, who I have had a crazy null read on this whole game, as the only possible scum-partner left. (1)

Still using how you apparently "disagree" with my scum-team options to ignore answering the question. To repeat: How would my scum-team opinions being incorrect mean I am hedging my bets?

Especially

since this is LyLo and

if you are town like you claim,

the game would end with you being lynched, without us

ever

getting the chance to act on these scumbuddy accusations. This reads to me more you desperately trying to prevent your partner Mute from getting lynched tommorow if you fail to lynch me by attacking my scum-team reads.

2 and 3). You said you found Mersianel scummy and then focused on ME pretty exclusively because no one else was. That's what I meant by tunneling. You can't focus on someone and not focus on someone. And for all that focusing, you couldn't still vomit up a vote. It's not hard to post FoS. Or scum lists. In fact, when it was mentioned last Day by tclawren why you didn't accuse me at twilight when you posted your reasons, you posted the WIFOMY excuse that scum would of killed you if you had attacked me that twilight. AtE, specifically, AtF, and scummy AtF since I had no interaction with Foresti at all, and Tclawren didn't accuse me of anything.

Everything that could have been said about Mer's fakeclaim had already been said, and it was pretty clear he was going to die no matter what I did. It seemed like a complete waste of time to push him just to say the same thing that others had already said. Wait, I mean say the same thing that

I

had already said. Since I had already said my part about Mer being scummy in my first post that day. (I am counting my incorrectly posted post and the post saying that it was incorrectly posted as one post)

The voting thing has already been covered. And I would have been voting Mer, not you then. Like has already been covered. Repeatedly.

And I've already mentioned several times that Mer was far to ridiculously scummy and bad with that fakeclaim to let live through to LyLo, even if you were so much more scummy then him if you disregarded that claim.

I don't know what AtF means.

4) You brought up the Cop thing. You've been passive aggressively been role fishing and your

last few sentences are a complete retraction of what you've said previous about me fishing for Cop

after loading me with bear and trying to MISREP ME about it. Also, does anyone besides me find it slightly suspicious that Mer's been attributed with calling Dazzy the Cop and claiming himself as doctor when either of these aren't true (as in that's not what he said at all, irregardless of the flip)?

Your note at the end is AtE. I've answered your questions. There's one last question I want to answer, and then I'll relinquish the floor, but I'm trying to keep these posts bite size and easy to swallow.

It was not a redaction, to quote my original accusation of rolefishing:
"This is PR fishing, there is no way mafia would know any better if Mer's claim (which was false) is as a doctor or cop, (unless you are saying you think there is a Dazzy/Mer scumteam with Dazzy being an idiot and saying what his partners fakeclaim would be before he made it fully, which I find highly unlikely. (And that you did not mention at all)) but getting this out in the open DOES get Dazzy implicated as a possible cop for all to see." Right from the start all you had to do was say why you didn't mention it at all and it wouldn't have been very suspicious. You did not do so until more than 6 posts worth of arguing later, which is

very

suspicious.

Two seperate people thinking that Mer said something he didn't doesn't seem that notable to me, unless you don't believe in coincidences or something. (2)

You still havn't answered why my scum-buddy reads being incorrect (in your opinion ) has to do with me being...what was it? Spreading around my options or whatever. Also, you didn't actually mention why you hadn't said anything about Dazzy being scummy until way way way into the argument.
Theres two examples for ya.

...

You know what? This is probobly gonna bite me later on, but I call that

Mer's flip will say Vanilla Townie. Ghostlin just seems far to scummy for Mer to be scum,

and Mer still seems to be talking like he is town even after being hammered...

By accusing me, you get towncred in a Day Three 'I told you so.' By timing your accusation when you did, you could easily cite this, and go 'see, I told you Mer was town. Even when Ghostlin said he wasn't.' You could safely distance yourself from the wagon, keeping your hands clean, or go 'hey guys, Ghostlin quick lynched Dazzy on faulty reasons,' even though I was L-3 on that lynch and I believe Mute hammered.

Oh, and I fully expect you to say I misrepped that quote. Fact is, you called the flip, a lot safer thing to do as scum than town.

Yeah, I called the flip. After Mer had been hammered and was still posting as if he was a townie.
I also never said "I told you so" in regards to Mer. That would have been ridiculously hypocritical since I agreed that he had to die.

(3)

1a) So scum don't buddy other scum? This is WIFOMic reasoning of Charlie not being scum. Also, still makes no sense considering I've been saying Mutetown longer than Charlietown if you're going to use that for your reasoning.

1b) You don't even mention Dazzytown even ONCE until Day 3. In fact, if you look through Day 1 and Day 2, you pretty much don't say much about any assertions Dazzy's made (although you defend the Foresti case on Dazzy as in fact, a case).
I'm finding Dazzy suspicious of being your partner for example, but I could see you in fact bussing Mute.

2a) I acutally found Dazzy and Mer possible at this point. You have had a 'town read' on Dazzy; but this is the closest you ever come to claiming it, and you still haven't reasons on why Dazzy's a townread and why you believe Charlie's claim and why you believe Mute's scum. And if you believe in order your town reads are in order: Dazzy, Charlie, Mute, Me; this is suspicious.

2b) The irony of this argument is you equate Dazzy to the Cop and then accuse me of rolefishing. Most people who play the Cop would not presumptively assume "oh, wait, he claimed a PR, he MUST be the doctor," with a huge number of scumgambits out there. Ironically, I also couldn't type what I was thinking, which was "I want the scumtard to claim a PR in my inbox because I'm the Cop and you've given him an out now." Your team would of loved that one.

2c) You have not gone on record at all on who's town (you've thrown accusations around on who's scum, tho') until the last possible moment in the game. You could literally accuse or clearn anyone on the fly. In fact, this is the first time I've heard Mutescum.

2d)You have accused my hammer of being scummy while admitting that your input that you richly whine about not being able to give insight on a claim which meshes exactly with what I mentioned just before I hammered. Your excuse for not riding me during Twilight about the hammer was in essence you thought you'd end up dead.

If you're a VT, why do you care?

If scum kills you, it would of looked damn suspicious and would of pointed any PRs my way to investigate/avoid Doc protects.

2e) Coincidence? Not in Mafia. Not when it's two people misrepping the same player about the same thing (PR claims).

3a) Yeah, you could safely call it after the deal was done and post a mea culpa to boot. "This might bite me in the ass, but..."

Most VTs don't care.

They have nothing to hide.

3b) The 'I told you so' is a bit of rhetoric, but it reads that way to me. "Now that Mer's flipped Town and I've kept my hands clean of it, here's why Ghostlin's scum..."

3c) Do you think if it would benefit them or keep town off the trail, scum wouldn't post like town in twilight? WIFOM.

[Ghostlin]

1)

King accuses me of something of not asking town for the hammer when he almost did the exact same thing the same game Day.

Read Post #336. Then read Post #113 and #115. Savor the irony. He does everything except not hammer here, and he threatens TS with 'one more post before I hammer.' On PAGE 5. Imagine this thread 7 pages shorter and how much less information we'd have. He only stops when suspicion is cast on him for trying to do it. Trying to end Day 1 early is the most anti-town thing you can do besides hammering yourself.

2)

No real reads on Mute. Or Dazzy for that matter.

He's come out on record saying Mute is my scum buddy, but what is his case? This is the odd thing: he's not really come up with a concrete reason for this besides PoE and that Mute is more scummy than Dazzy. Why is Mute more scummy than Dazzy? On the three pages I've read, he's not voiced on suspicion of either. Why is Dazzy protown? One could guess -maybe- it's because King's not interacted with him much...but wait...he's not interacted with Mute either. Nor has he given case reads on them even to support them.

3)

He accepts Charlie's town because I'm buddying him.

This is WIFOM. This also contradicts Day 1 reads he appears to have on Charlie: he even thought he was scummy and made a comment when Charlie was being sarcastic about claiming scum.

4)

He thinks Mute is scum for similar reasons (buddying)...or I think so.

This one confuses me. Charlie is obvtown because I'm buddying him. Mute is obvscum....because I've said he's been and acted town 85% of this game? I was ready to lynch Charlie Day 1--that's why I investigated him Night 1. I've not suspected Mute this game previous to Lylo and he's been in my town column for most of it. Mute should be more town if you follow this logic, unless I'm buddying my scumbuddy, which if I'm buddying my buddy...

Oh, crap, that's WIFOM again.

5)

Lack of town reads previous to Day 3.

This is lumped in with 3 and 4, but the majority of town...you knew roughly where you stood with most of them. There were lists. If there weren't lists, you could read posts where they went 'I feel Person X is alignment Y.' And if that alignment was Town in there eyes they told you so. King has avoided doing that.

6)

Lack of vote Day 2.

If there's one thing that screams scumtell, this is it. Wham. Does everything but accuse me and Mer of being scum, asks Charlie a question....and promptly doesn't back it up with a vote. If Mer was at L-1 at the time (which he wasn't) he could of voted me and pushed the wagon. He had time to wallpost, he didn't have time to vote?

7)

Too dumb for scum defense.

From the infamous 'You're PR fishing, Ghostlin' post:
"(unless you are saying you think there is a Dazzy/Mer scumteam with Dazzy being an idiot and saying what his partners fakeclaim would be before he made it fully, which I find highly unlikely. (And that you did not mention at all))" He acutally uses it with a straight face. Possible Chainsaw Defense as well.

8)

Too bent on self preservation.

These quotes says it all:

...
King: You assumed you'd be alive for D2. Why is that? It's pointless trying to figure out why it was Forseti that was NK'ed, but it's not all that pro-town to keep info for yourself in twilight saying you've got something you'd like to say. So what would you have done if you were killed by scum?

...I would have been dead.
You can't do anything after you die.

And it was more "I don't want to say something that will make me die tonight" then it was "I'm not going to die tonight."

[quote="KingTwelveSixteen]...At the time I was pretty sure that Ghostlin was scum and I didn't want to be NKed by him and be unable to push him, and if he isn't scum then I would probobly have been NKed anyway, since the scum would want to throw some suspicion on Ghostlin. And I couldn't really see how my post would make any potential doctor any more likely to target me.

So yeah, I didn't want to die.[/quote]

Problems with this: 1) King's not a PR. Someone from town dies during night. You might as well be the nail that gets the hammer if you're VT. There's no reason to withhold information in twilight if you're a VT. Your death will be less determental than if scum hits a Cop or Doctor. In fact, I believe that's the point TClawren made.
2) This sorta softclaims a PR. They'd be the only ones to try to keep a low profile like this during twilight.
3) Self preservation is not a good instinct for VTs to have outside of lylo.

More coming.

[Ghostlin]

Yes, there is more. I'm letting you all digest what I wrote in the first posts.

[Ghostlin]

10)

The Rolefishing Debacle: A Lession in Misreps

:

...

...

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read.

That's suspicious you'd say so.

...

...
My next post was a

simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

...

Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor. That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor.

Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the

scum

are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it.

...
1) Dazzy's not the cop though. He just admitted he wasn't the Cop.

You presumed he was the Cop, when there's been nothing to support it.

Secondly, if scum agreed to play off each other fakeclaim in their quicktopic, it could be they agreed that Mer should claim Doc and that was a scum slip. [/b]Hence the question. There'd be no reason for a comment like that to be made since the words

'keeping my hands clean' could mean anything: he needed a protect target the next day, he needed suspects for an investigation target...it means virtually nothing.

...

What? I'm not saying that he is the cop, he blatantly said he wasn't. I'm saying that what he said seemed like a cop tell, since what he said follows the mindset of a cop.

....
Dazzy posted something that looked to me like a cop-tell, but could have possibly, though it is in my opinion unlikely, been a scum-slip of a Dazzy from a Mer/Dazzy scumteam.
You say this is suspicious, and give no reason why.

You are also seemingly misreping and not responding to full arguments unless forced to right now.
@underlined: That had not been mentioned at the original point of role-fishing, using it as an argument against you being rolefishing then is therefor faulty.
Oh, and guess what? The role-fishing was successful, now you know that Dazzy isn't a cop.

New highlights mine. Even if you don't believe I'm the Cop, this stinks:

1) I make a post accusing Dazzy of having information no one else would have. Whenever anyone claims something that isn't in thread, it's suspicious to me.
2) King tries to turn this into rolefishing by essentally claiming Cop for Dazzy; saying the Cop would automatically assume the other softclaimed PR was the Doctor (which was funny considering the reason we lynched Mer was that his softclaim was scummy...so why would any Cop think that Mer would be the doctor?).
3) I essentally said 'Dazzy's not the Cop, he just said he wasn't, so your presumption is wrong. Also, I figured it could be a scumslip because scum might want to claim PRs.'
4) "What? I didn't say he was the cop..." First of all, yeah, you kinda did:

That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor.

.
King spun this into a misrep anyway of 'you're putting words in my mouth.' (I'm paraphrasing.)
5)

You say this is suspicious, and give no reason why.

*When I said 'no one had access to that information', that would be a reason to find that suspicious. No, I didn't say it right in the post, I did want Dazzy to give me a reason why he thought what he thought.
*I also mention scumslips here, which makes a later post you made bunk. If there was a scumslip, obviously a Dazzy/Mer team was on my mind.
6) "Your rolefishing worked, you now know Dazzy isn't the Cop." Except the Cop conjecture came from King:

I acutally didn't think that Dazzy=assumes Mer as Doc=Dazzy Cop.

I acutally thought that Dazzy=assumes Mer as Doc=Mer never claimed Doc=WTF NO ONE HAS THAT INFO=Scumslip fakeclaim?

This is an assumption King makes for himself, then reverse pins it on me.

[Ghostlin]

Look like Mute stands out from the rest. He was on most of the leading wagons.
Dazzy's on the other end of the spectrum, he seems to be not voting more than the rest.
KingTwelveSixteen's voting pattern is not scummy... he never participated in the lynching wagons. I don't believe Mafia would be THAT passive.
I believe both Mafia were on the TS lynching wagon @ 1.10.
Ditto the Meransiel wagon @ 2.1
These 2 lynching wagons carry the most information out of all the VCAs.
If I have to call it, I'd say we're in 2 goon 1 doc setup and the Mafia are Ghostlin & Mute. Both participated in both mislynches.
That's my 2 cents.
Thoughts?

I think you're wrong. Here's why: You can often catch scum on one wagon, but particularly end of Day 1, scum can be on multiple wagons at once. And sometimes not the leading wagon at all. Let me illustrate to you in a few games (that ARE completed) where this happened:

VOTE COUNT
LynchMePls (3): werewolf555, vezokpiraka, Zyrconium
Packbat (1): LynchMePls
vezokpiraka (7): DLG, Parama, Empking, LlamaFluff, Ghostlin, Fishythefish, Antihero
Zyrconium (2): Jerbs, Packbat

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

You decide that this one person's acting suspicious, so it's time to get rid of her. Jump ropes are easy to come by at elementary schools, so you pull one out, find a tree, and hang her from it.

A search of her things reveals a briefcase with a bunch of legal documents. Nothing indicated that she was partaking in the bullying going on at the school. In fact, she was the concerned mother of one of the kids being bullied—Ms. Mudd. Good luck getting a lawyer around here, because you offed her.

vezokpiraka, who was Mililani Mudd, a vanilla townie, has been lynched on Day 1.

Night 1 ends in 72 hours.

The scum in that game were Packbat and werewolf. Werewolf claimed Cop on Day 1 and avoided a lynch vote for the entire game (in fact, town still won by not lynching correctly due to a Vig). 1042 did have both scum on the wagon, but here's a game Mute will remember, 1024:

Post #243 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:53 am

ØØOOOOOOX

Beefster, Townie, has been lynched Day 1.

Final Vote Count

Beefster (Kayi - Mastin - Neruz - Mute - Trendall)
Mute (Jay - Beefster)
Kayi (Lateralus22)
Jay (Yenros)
Not Voting ()


With five votes, that's a lynch and an end to the first day.
Night 1 has a three day deadline and begins now.

New Deadline: Nov. 20th, 2010 at 2:00 AM (CST)

L22 and Mastin were scum. While Mastin was on the wagon, L22 was voting for Kayi (who I would replace). Later L22's replacement (Nachomamma) and Mastin (replaced by DLG would win).

Here's one from a three scum game:

Final vote count Day 1

The Jester (1) - Guderian
DrippingGoofball (2) - The Jester, RossWilliam
Xalxe (7) - Darox, DrippingGoofball, AntB, Ghostlin, veridis, vezokpiraka, Dark Horse

Not Voting (2) - palmertrou, Xalxe

With 12 alive, 7 votes were needed for the lynch


One by one the lights go on above Xalxe's glass chamber, until the whole bar is lit. Xalxe looks out in horror, banging against the glass "You've made a mistake! You've made a mistake!" There's a small clunking noise, followed by a soft whirring, and Xalxe looks around his cell for what will kill him. Then... nothing.
After a moment muzak is played. Muzak? But that's only played in elevators? Sure enough, Xalxe's cell starts to rise, to where, nobody knows... except that, the top of his cell isn't moving. As a musak version of uptown girl plays cheerily, Xalxe is slowly and horribly crushed against the top of his cell. When the floor drops back into place, there's nothing that really resembles anything that is not goo.

A loud error noise interupts the end of the song, and a large red X flashes over the cell.

Xalxe, it seems, was not one of von Skümihosen's minions, instead he was a Super-Spy.

It's a mountainous. (A mountainous is an all vanilla setup. In this particular one, scum had to vote who to kill and did not have a night talk.) Scum in this game were AntB, veridis (replaced by Thor665), and palmertrou. 2 scum on, 1 off.

So saying that you will always find both scum (or all the scum on a mislynch Day 1) is a disservice to scum hunting. I do believe you are more likely to find one or more scum, (I'd say the odds are around 60-70%) to help drive that lynch, but I think you're doing yourself and town a disservice by saying both scum were on both wagons.

In other words, and I did come to this conclusion myself a few pages eariler: if we take the the vote counts, Mute is most likely scum, particularly owning to what I know about how the vote count on 2.1 ended up; but saying 'scum wouldn't be so passive' is WIFOM, and particularly untrue WIFOM.

[Ghostlin]

Also, another game just ended where all scum were not on Day 1's wagon: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16311 .

Three scum game. 2 on wagon Day 1, 1 off. AV and AntB were on the wagon, Batt was off.

[Ghostlin]

1) Yeah: you know, because I did that before I revealed the investigations that in my mind cleared Charlie...oh, wait...it was AFTER.

This is an elaborate smokescreen: confirmed innocents are trusted above unconfirmed townsfolk. It's sort of a duh. If you're basing your case over me stating the obvious, that's not scummy. Neither is stating someone's cleared and treating their claim as sincere if you acutally are the Cop. That's good business.

2) Yawn. WIFOM. Scum could very easily fake that. That's a load, and you know it.

3) They're not going to autoassume doc either. Which is essentally what you said, King. A wise player would wait for a claim, even provoke it.

4) It creates a link (not a strong one) between you and Dazzy that should be noticed and commented on.

5) Um...no, we can't necessarly. Did you not read your own posts Day 1 or Day 2? You only start mentioning this business, when under the gun, NOW IN LYLO.

6) Bullshit. You were going to hammer if your posts are going to be believed. If you were serious about Foresti's letting him live for town's comments, you should have voted when we were done. You didn't vote TS at all that day. Your votes don't indicate any insistence of. You let off pressure.

7) That last point is my point. You found it less likely (I think you used the phrase 'greatly unlikely') in an argument we had about the validity of information a townie shouldn't have.

8) ...Which you've only mentioned on Day 3. We've not had any town reads before Day 3 from you. God, I sound like a broken record.

9) You texted walled, had two obvious suspects, and didn't EVEN FOS one. The most you did to TS was a Double HoS. There's NO point in town being that passive.

10-11) It's scummy if you don't ever let us know any reprision of your reads until endgame. You've been the only so...stingy with those. You could say anything about anyone now. You could say code from the pyramids proves that Dazzy is my supersecret scumpartner....we don't have a read on Dazzy, and the only read we have on Charlie is esssntally you thought he was scum Day 1. We'd have to utterly take your word for it on the reads, King. NO TOWNIE DOES THAT. Usually, they'll mention town reads, even in passing.

And his last comment:

Vote Count 1.6

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw, Forseti, Mute)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (FarmeriXi)
gxw - 1 (Charlie)

Not Voting - 3 (Dazzy, KingTwelveSixteen, Twistedspoon)
-----------
Vote Count 1.7

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw, Forseti, Mute)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)
KingTwelveSixteen - 1 (FarmeriXi)
gxw - 1 (Charlie)
FarmeriXi - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, Twistedspoon)


Twistedspoon - 3 (tclawren, Forseti, Mute)
tclawren - 2 (Charlie, Ghostlin)
Meransiel - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)

No Lynch - 1 (Meransiel)

Not Voting - 2 (Dazzy, Twistedspoon)
-----------
Vote Count 1.9

Twistedspoon - 3 (Forseti, Mute, Dazzy)
Meransiel - 2 (KingTwelveSixteen, tclawren)
Forseti - 1 (Twistedspoon)
Charlie - 1 (Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 2 (Charlie, Meransiel)

Try something more covnincing. Seriously, the worst you would of done at L-2 would of put him at L-1, which if you were convinced he was guilty, like you SAY YOU WERE, you should of applied the pressure back so we could reexamine the wagon.

Guys: this is the scummiest defense ever: "I didn't vote the lynch wagons because I didn't want to put them close to hammer, but I totally would of voted them if there was no danger of that." How do you think we win the game through lynches, anyway? If all of town voted like that, NONE of us would get anywhere.

[Ghostlin]

My case on King is stalled, I have a big test tomorrow, and I'm having some trouble finding stuff on him to be frank. Ghost, while I accept that sometimes the Mafia are not on the wagons of a mislynch, King being on none of them does say something.

I think you miss my point. Let me try this, although it may 'prove' my guilt in your eyes.

Charlie drew the argument that since Mute and I were on both mislynches, we were the scumteam. I'm pointing out that statisically that's true, but only for one scumpartner. The other is statisically found on another lynch, or not voting at all. Out of the games I've played on the site, only one--1042--had scum both on the same wagon at once on Day 1. The rest had one or in the case of three person scum teams, two scum voting on the wagon and one off. There was one other case of no scum voting the Day 1 lynch.

Analyzing these results from my experiences (maybe not statistically accurate, but I think they're a good indicator:
60% chance that 1 scum is on the Day 1 wagon: {Charlie, myself, Mute}
20% chance that both scum is on Day 1 wagon: {Charlie, myself, Mute}
20% chance that no scum is on Day 1 wagon: {null}.

Charlie has claimed doc, and none of us believe he is scum. I have an Town investigation on him, so that eliminates him for me.

From the perspective out of games I've experienced, it is much more likely that either I or Mute are scum seperately than it is that we are scum together or not scum at all from the VC analysis alone.

As for scum not as likely to be cautious about their vote, I have experienced, honestly, two voting profiles with scum: the first is the scum that's tight with his vote, playing hyperconcerned for fear that he'll draw suspicion, but yet will voice as many suspicions as possible OR scum that have tendencies to sheep other people's opinions, and are very often not found off the wagon.

[Ghostlin]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

The only thing is, that's almost too easy. Everyone thought that TS was scum due to his comments that seemed off, and he's now dead. Everyone thought Mer was scum due to the fakeclaim, and he's now dead. Now the most compelling evidence for Mute being scum is a VCA. Everytime we've strung up the obvious candidate, a townie ends up dead.

If I'm telling the truth as the Cop, you have a way to tell whether or not this is an elaborate setup or if Mute is scum. We need a way that takes me out of the supposition and helps confirm Mute's alignment. (If you lynch wrong regardless, Town loses.)

There's not much more I have to say on the whole King thing. If you seriously think not advertising your tells to town and refusing to vote when you acutally had plenty of time to do some a game day, and the evidence of the majority of five games having the generic wisdom be one scum off, one scum on the wagon. Yes, I played this aggressive, I played this aggressive to say alive. While I never lied to town outright (regardless of King's assertions), I said things in a certain way to provoke. Even my most scummy move in this game, the TS lynch, was engineered to be ultimately town. We shouldn't have and weren't going to lynch Mer that day. Meanwhile, King supposed he'd be around Day 2, delibrately withheld information Day 1 twilight so he could set up the maximum suspicion on me.

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

[Ghostlin]

1) If Mute's the most scummy, why are you voting me? Honestly, if you are saying Mute's the most scummy,

why isn't your vote on the most scummy player?

Oh, if you're trying to turn this into why I'm not voting Mute: investigated guilty scum>unknown probable scum. Always.

2) This is a convienent defense.

3) Then what do you have? The TS and Mer cases which you agree on needed to happen but disagree with the timing of (and frankly, I don't see your point about the Mer case, I didn't hammer, just put him at L-2)? Shall I quote that to you? Misreps? You've misrepped people too. My 'lie', which is more of an exaggeration?

4) My post: #122

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Generic:

1) Put away your itchy hammer fingers. That's not worth it. Also, if you are town, DO NOT self-vote, OR self-hammer. It's an antitown play and helps no one. I have to say this because we're on our second wagon at L-1 today and one of you might get weirdly suicidal on me. (I've had townies do it before.)

2) Ignore the fact that we're SEs/ICs when you make your cases as much as possible. Regardless of the role assigned, I play to win, I expect Charlie to, and I expect Mute to. Yes, I'm here to have fun, but winning is important.

My reads:

Mute:

Has gotten a lot better at this. He reads very town to me. Who do you like better, Charlie or TS for lynch if right now was the deadline and they were both at L-1? Why?

TS:

Whoa, turbo. A few questions for you:

1) Is it possible that Foresti and Charlie could be defending each other's points outside of scum buddies?
2) Why would you be comfortable with a hammer on Day 1, Page 5? Explain in detail.
3) Do you always make connections this soon in games?
4) If Charlie was scum, do you think his buddy might throw him under the bus and distance at L-1 instead of buddying up to him?

You're leaning scum because you're trying too hard. You're eager for a lynch right now when we need to gather information. I'm not comfortable with telegraphing a Foresti/Charlie scum pair, and lynching them right this second to endgame. Let your brain engage and stop trying to impress us.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

GXW:

Tell me. What do you think of TS and Charlie right now? If one of them's scum, do you think they both might be? Why or why not?
Also, answer the question I gave Mute.
Nulltell: your last two posts don't betray you're thinking. You did follow orders and didn't hammer, tho'.

King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.

Foresti:

I see you defending Charlie. Give me your reasoning why Charlie is obviously a town read for you. True null (slight town lean due to suspecting someone not one of the main suspects). Charlie or TS flipping town or scum might throw this one way or another depending on future behavior.

Dazzy:

I'd like your scum reads with a short explanation as to why. I don't pick up anything scummy from you, and you're reading town. New town, but very obviously town.

FarmeriXi:

Can't get a good read on you. What do you think of all this?

Your post #127:

Ok, I just realised something. The reason I felt fine with lynching TS so quickly when I felt it was scummy for him to want to lynch Charlie so early was that I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched couldn't defend themselves, since they died so quickly, and because a general bit of "not enough stuff has happened in the day yet" sometimes, but there is another reason it is scummy that I didn't really think much about until Forseti pointed it out, that it is scummy because nobody can comment on the lynch.

That is why I seemed to contradict myself,

TS responded to my case with a horribly bad "defense," and there had been enough talking for me to get some good reads in, so at the time I didn't think it would be anti-town or anything to lynch him.

Of course now that I know the other reason, and think of it as a good reason (which it is), I will be more careful with my lynches and blah blah moral of the story blah.

While maybe not directly "stopping" you, it seems my accusation forced you to vomit up that mea culpa. Also, explain yourself: you said you thought it'd be OK to do it on Page 7, never took TS to L-1, and then accused me when I hammered on Page 12.

5. Then why didn't you reveal it Twilight 1? If it didn't matter...You know, this entire argument is a WIFOM.

6. Let me explain to you the inconsistency here: You have claimed VT. You said you would comment on the goings on the following Day. When asked about it, you said it was to prevent scum (namely me by your accusation) from NKing you. As a VT, you have nothing to protect, and it's not in your best interest to conceal information from town. So either you're a really bad townie, or a scum that realized his opportunity to softclaim was gone.

[Ghostlin]

A few specific points:

1) Twilight 1: King says will comment on goings on the previous night on Day 2.

Day 2: Gets called out for presuming he'll survive. Says he did it to avoid the NK and hence to avoid scum killing him.

Day 3: Claims VT.

Here's the problem: As a VT, King wouldn't have a reason to not draw an NK. His Day 2 claim that he was avoiding scum killing him is indicative of a PR: yet he doesn't claim one once I claim Cop. Either this is really bad Town play (which would be hard to believe since that King has played well as either alignment), this is scum play that abandoned a PR soft claim.

This is the scum motivation for doing this: King needed an excuse for saying he was going to stay alive Day 2 to explain his feelings on the nights actions to us. He knew he was going to be alive Day 2. Thing is, his argument doesn't make logical sense.

2) Voting someone just on the reason that they claimed Cop with a guilty on you and then saying someone else is more scummy devalues your vote a little. If this was a Day 2 claim, and not in Lylo, I'd encourage you to lynch me and watch you reverse out of it when I flip what I'm going to.

3) Whatever. I'm tired of arguing this specific point with you. You posted a retraction for voting Day 5 after I posted a longish post saying how much I didn't like it. Either it had a direct affect on your 127 or it didn't, but it sure reads that it did. It both can't have anything to do with lack of a quicklynch and be a 'oh, I guess that was scummy, here are my reasons' at the same time.

Also, pushing a quicklynch is scummy, but King was ready to participate in one. Contradiction? Wanted to confess you were scum on Page 5? What exactly would of possessed King to post what he did? Oh, that's right, TS's defense was dismissive and scummy.

4) You know, Mer seemed to call me scum with the only reason being that I hammered the previous day. When asked about it, he never really gave me much of a good reason. Then he continued to say my lack of concern about TS was scummy: while part of it was an act, bluntly: TS acted pretty scummy the previous Day, my other wagon (Charlie) had puttered out and I wasn't going to devote a vote to Mer at that point. I did say I was not happy TS was town, but a lynch had to happen. Mer rode me the entire day, almost getting one of town mod killed for his bah post, which I can only assume contained an accusation about me.

A quick teaser - Assuming Ghostlin is NOT the cop, and Charlie is the Doc, the mafia cannot have an RB. Yet, Meransiel, a claimed PR, was not killed on N1... In the words of Ghost, when answering why a claimed PR would be left alive (I asked that question with this in mind): "Generally speaking: you either have a roleblocker, or the person claiming the role is scum. The other scenario of 'praying for a mislynch' is loaded with WIFOM, and most scumteams won't optimally go for it...". Meransiel was not scum. That means that there is (most likely) an RB. That's impossible IF CHARLIE IS THE DOCTOR.

Let's actually run with this argument for a minute. Presuming I wasn't talking out of my hat for a minute (and I generally wouldn't be about something you could investigate yourself): the danger a Cop or Doc holds to scum is great and only gets greater over time. So either scum set up Mer: which would be risky, protecting/investigating the right person by pulling names hovers around 1 out 7; a Cop 2 out of 7 (you can't protect yourself, and if you don't know you're town without an investigation, I can't help you) which is why I said it's less than optimal, particularly if Mer survived the Day 2 lynch, a doctor would have something like a 1 out of 5 chance to protect the right person after a failed protect Day 1, a Cop a 2 out of 4 or 2 out of 5 chance (you investigate every night as a Cop. Period. Plus the Cop has one investigation he's not going to redo, two dead bodies, and himself.)

What that means, is I had the following list at the End of Day 2: Mute, Dazzy, King1216, tclawren (I'm not going to investigate Charlie, who I investigated N1, and again, investigating myself as town is silly). I had a 50% chance of town or scum at this point. So in other words almost 30% on Night 1 and you get a confirmed innocent as a Cop even if you don't mess it up epically, and almost 20% of giving town a half Day on Night 2. (There has been a doctor who gave us two protects; giving us a full mislynch in a game I played. We still lost.)

That's what I mean by suboptimal. As in, no scum team in the WORLD would be well assured enough to play the numbers. (Which, by the way, if you ever do play Cop, don't hit your scum suspect Day 2; try to find an innocent.)

Anyhow: so three options exist.

1) Scum played suboptimally. I don't see this happening on any of our teams that are possible by setup, but I guess it could happen. In which case, either Charlie or I could be lying. (Alternatively, I'll lump there's a PR that someone didn't claim here. This would be suboptimal now and I can't see anyone doing it.)
2) Mer was RBed. We are both telling the truth.
3) Mer was RBed. We are both lying, having somehow divined that there were no other PRs.

If you accept that scum (or anyone else) haven't been playing sub-optimally this game, then Charlie and I are the scum team or we're the Doctor and the Cop.

If you accept Charlie's town and the doc, you must accept I'm the Cop unless someone left Mer alive suboptimally. If you don't (and I recommend you not doing this) then you must accept that we're scum.

[Ghostlin]

1) Mute: I said I'd take a look if Mer flipped town at King mostly because of two things: 1) I was thinking King was scum before Mer's flip, and that he was pulling off a chainsaw defense. That would be grossly less likely if Mer flipped town, so King might in fact be town despite the scum read I had on him. 2) This is going to sound weird, but I was looking equally for an innocent, because that would of proved the setup had Charlie also stayed alive, and I made a guess that TClaw was mostly likely going to be the NK that night.

(Explanation: in a five person Lylo there are two townies (for our purposes) a Cop, and two scum. One of the townies is confirmed to the Cop. If he gets a townie confirm on another player that's still alive, the remaining players are the scum team.)

2) Charlie: what I'm getting at with the first question is the folly of saying you're afraid to die to the night kill as a VT when pro town players are the only ones that are going to. It would seem to me an aborted soft claim of sorts, or an excuse that King needed to justify his comment at the end of Twilight 1. A townie, unless very new to the game wouldn't say it. Now, you could argue this is King's case, but he's played very well: and I'd rather go with sinister competence rather than the newbie card in his case.
The second question is more at looking at the NKs, which is nebulous WIFOM, but I'll try to point it out:

@Ghostlin

A few things.

The speed with which the wagon built up was a major factor, for one thing. I could tie that into my off-site experience, perhaps. Where I usually play, day one wagons on scum tend to be a lot slower to build up and a lot harder to get over the finish line, so a very quick wagon with someone declaring hammer-intent on someone tends to be something that sets off alarm bells in my head.

Secondly, as I've already stated, I could see where Charlie could look like he was role-fishing... but my immediate instinct about the questions when I saw them was that they were reaction-bait, it felt to me like he was throwing hooks in the water to see if something snapped on it.

I wasn't thrilled by KingTwelveSixteen's vote, I said why, and I still disagree with his rebuttal.

Dazzy's post, any my resulting vote ended up discussed to death (Or ignored to death, pick your preference). I was satisfied with his responses to an extent, and recognised that an error in my vote-counting contributed to my read. As it is, I'm leaning town on him now, but that would switch were Charlie to be lynched and flip town.

The TS vote... I still think that was OMGUS couched in hazy reasoning as I said at the time, and not TS's first (or last) exhibiting of it, and after the recent interactions, I feel he's a far better lynch than Charlie at this point for a variety of reasons.

My read on Charlie, as it stands, is leaning town, and most of that has little to actually do with his own play as it is the way that people have reacted to him and tried to push the wagon on him over the line. As such, it's a read that's subject to change, but it would need a stronger case than currently has been put forth.

KingTwelveSixteen: What I meant by the hammering thing was that gxw is supposedly willing to drop the hammer at this stage, which strikes me as utterly ludicrous this early.

Also, I would argue he set out his vote on TS with a certain amount of caution. Using your vote on your lead suspect =/= scummy in and of itself, and given the nature of the wagon, and given the context of his interaction with me in the leadup to it, making it perfectly obvious and plain that it's going to L-2 at that point seemed like a fairly logical thing to do.

Would you say YOU were showing recklessness or caution by putting Charlie to L-1 and shouting loudly that it was, in fact, L-1? I see little difference in the scenarios, other than the vote count. Especially not since you've been also stating your caution about doing certain things because of your past game experience. Either he made one reckless move, in which case you've been as reckless, if not more so, or what you did wasn't all that reckless, and if yours wasn't, his CERTAINLY wasn't given that TS was further away from a lynch than Charlie is.

Ghostlin: I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being done that blatantly.

Now TClaw claimed King was town with his reads at the end of the day, but he mentioned they would change. The most interesting thing about TClaw's read was when he asked King point blank why he didn't accuse me about the hammer at Twilight AND his opinion that the TS hammer was protown.

I'm saying that there's more motive for a King scum team lynch with the NK's (N1: Alleviating suspicion off himself, N2: creating suspicion and eliminating a townie that would of supported me, possibly, or not: we'll never know) then there seems to be motive in me doing it besides WIFOM. That's neblous, but there it is.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin, I'm pretty sure you've said you investigated King in the hope that he is Town. What's with your first reply to Mute in the above? I know you explained in your second part, but I find your ambivalence suspicious.

I have to say that I don't share your belief that King made an aborted soft claim. I think you're trying just a bit too hard as to sound convincing here, which further makes me doubt your Cop claim.

Bluntly: There was no reason for King to be concerned about his life going into Day 2 as a VT. The explanation of that for withholding info T1 is lame, doesn't match his claim, and reeks of scum even if there's not a soft claim involved. No one else would of been convinced they lived till Day 2 to share the information.

As for my first part of the reply:

1) I was thinking King was scum before Mer's flip, and that he was pulling off a chainsaw defense. That would be grossly less likely if Mer flipped town, so King might in fact be town despite the scum read I had on him.

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version)
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.
The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

In English, had Mer flipped scum, I would have additional grounds to suspect King for scum: Mer's flip had forced me to consider King town (rather, a null worth investigating) because it wouldn't be a trustworthy scum tell with Mer as town anymore. (In other words, accusing King of chainsaw defending Day 2 doesn't hold water in a world where Mer is town.)

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin now that the game is over I'd like to ask you about that so-called "sub-optimal" scum play. =P

You did exactly what I thought you should of done in that situation; you blocked Mer. I needed the flip to confirm it. Neither of us played horribly, I had locked King and was about to lock you right before they lynched me.

Vel: you were right about a guilty right before lylo. Two innocents would of worked better. D1's Quick hammer I don't think would of changed the outcome of D1. It was my first time playing Cop.

(If you're curious folks, power roles I have had: Mason, Roleblocker with a possiblity of a Vig (died like N2) Doctor (Died N2, and I saw it coming but not before I had saved a townie and prevented the NK N1.)

Mer: Do not do that as a non-scum in a newbie game. The experienced players will convince town lynch you as a matter of policy. You'll do fine once you get your feet.

Mute/King: really well played, although you should of killed me or Charlie N2. Hint: if someone seems too good to be true to set up as scum, they're probably a PR, particularly the cop.

Mute, if you ever want to do the hydra thing, let me know, I'll be your other head.

Charlie: You did good as your first time as IC, I hope to be an IC soon myself.

Everyone Else: This is going to sound weird, but some sound advice. If you have two suspicious individuals at Lylo, and one is looking more town then the other, you vote for the person who looks the most town. Don't ask me why, but yeah, that's how it often boils down to.

[Ghostlin]

Ghost that'd be awesome. =D

(hydra's though, how do they work?)

You and I would work as the same player using a QT to coordinate our thoughts. Not every game takes them, but it's the only way I think I could play a large. We'd post through the account we'd share.