Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[iamausername]

What time zone are you in?

GMT.

RVS or RQS? Why?

I prefer to just play the damn game.

What is your experience level with Mafia?

~3 years, ~50 games.

How active can we expect you to be?

Variable.

VOTE: Umbrage

Nobody hates Harry Potter. Lynch all liars.

[iamausername]

I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Why bother pointing it out if you're not going to draw a conclusion from it? Is it because you want someone else to do your dirty work for you?

[iamausername]

Unvote

VOTE: DarthYoshi

Most of the people who are actually posting look like town. He does not.

[iamausername]

Who do you consider to be actually posting

Krazy
Umbrage
Ythan
ConSpiracy
Snake Eyes
Vordark
Abelcain
DarthYoshi

who among them do you consider

not

to look like town?

DarthYoshi

[iamausername]

@Town as a whole--though I was uneasy with CS’s vote on Umbrage, he hasn’t done anything after that to really set off my scumdar, so my read on him is mostly neutral. My vote is better served elsewhere atm.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

I think any vote outside of the RVS needs at least a few words of explanation as to why you are voting

for

someone, but I find it suspicious when someone makes a show of why they are taking it

off

of someone when they move it. It's worrying about appearances and that's something more likely to come from scum than town.

You're wise beyond your years, Vordark. I was more concerned about the fact that he is self-admittedly voting Krazy for reasons that have nothing to do with his alignment, but this may be an even better observation.

[iamausername]

You’re clearly reading the thread, but are saying very little.

So is everyone else, they're just using more words to do so.

[iamausername]

Just out of interest, Vordark, why are you voting Umbrage over Yoshi again? Do try to keep your answer as brief as you can, if you don't mind.

[iamausername]

I would like to hear other people's thoughts on DarthYoshi, Quaroath and iamausername.

Well, you already have my thoughts on Yoshi, and I'm sure you don't need my thoughts on myself, but I guess I'll take a look at Quaroath. But only cuz it's you asking.

I read his iso, I think he's doing pretty good now he's actually here. His latest post was definitely one of the more worthwhile ones in this game.

I've already said that I don't think iamausername should be playing around here if he's not willing to read the long posts.

I don't believe I've ever given any indication that I was unwilling to

read

the long posts.

[iamausername]

If I have something to say about them, I'll say it.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum.

For example; by reading DarthYoshi's long posts, I have determined that he is scum. Why don't you tell us how you feel about that instead of getting angsty about the fact that I'm not posting hundreds of paragraphs to inform you of this simple fact?

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Typi non habent claritatem insitam; est usus legentis in iis qui facit eorum claritatem. Investigationes demonstraverunt lectores legere me lius quod ii legunt saepius. Claritas est etiam processus dynamicus, qui sequitur mutationem consuetudium lectorum. Mirum est notare quam littera gothica, quam nunc putamus parum claram, anteposuerit litterarum formas humanitatis per seacula quarta decima et quinta decima. Eodem modo typi, qui nunc nobis videntur parum clari, fiant sollemnes in futurum.

The content of a post is considerably more important than it's length.

[iamausername]

No, he's scum because he's not making sincere efforts to find scum, and because he's overly concerned about how he is appearing to everyone else. If you actually read, you may notice that I have already made this case (with assistance from Vordark, admittedly).

I'm not asking you to make a case, I'm just asking you what you think of DarthYoshi. Why are you so reluctant to talk about him?

[iamausername]

Yes.

[iamausername]

My read on Yoshi has not changed on the basis of him saying "no, the scummy things I did aren't scummy", no.

[iamausername]

I also notice that you're still not answering the question of what

you

think of DarthYoshi.

[iamausername]

your piggy-backing on V

I voted Yoshi before Vordark had expressed any suspicion of him, so I'm not sure how you can honestly describe it as 'piggy-backing'.

Since you seem to want to ask point blank opinions of other players, what is your opinion of CS? You seem to be skeptical of V voting him instead of Yoshi but did not actually explain why.

Actually, Vordark was voting Umbrage before, not CS. And I was sceptical because he was clearly displaying stronger suspicion of Yoshi than Umbrage in his posts, so it seemed odd that he didn't vote for Yoshi. Since he has now corrected that oversight, there's no need for me to pursue it any further.

This is a colossal waste of time and energy that I could spend looking for scum.

It turns out that the power to stop wasting time and energy and just find scum was inside you all along, Umbrage.

You are either incredibly dense or completely mischaracterizing other players.

There is no content in this post.

Interesting how these two posts come together. I've hardly gone into a lot more detail on any of my reads than Xtoxm did in that post, so why such a variance in response, Ythan?

What I don't understand is how it is pro-town to characterize pressing an at-the-time anti-town player as a "distraction." As Krazy's play picked up, my focus began to shift.

Here is the problem; you voted Krazy for being 'anti-town', not for being scummy. You've never given any opinion on Krazy's alignment; you voted him as a form of punishment for bad play, once he adjusted his play to fit more in line with your standards of good play, you rescinded that punishment. Did you decide that Krazy was probably town because he conformed to your standards? I don't know. I don't even know if you thought he was town in the first place.

In fact, you've never given any opinion on anyone's alignment. I have no idea who you believe to be town and who you believe to be scum. You've made huge posts talking in circles defending yourself from Vordark, and pointing out

anti-town

play, but nowhere in those 3000 odd words is there even the slightest hint of

scumhunting

.

[iamausername]

Problem?

Xtoxm's post does contain content. That's all I'm saying.

If the vote was for anti-town behavior and he ceased to exhibit anti-town behavior, why would you want the vote to stay?

You're totally missing the point. Whether or not the vote stays is irrelevent because the vote had no meaning.

Your vote, such as it was, contained no substantive reasons or case for voting me.

Do you agree with Krazy's assessment that I am piggy-backing on Vordark?

First, Ythan is right--it would have been scummy to leave my vote on a player who was now being pro-town.

FAO: The Clueless Masses

Read this quote.

Note that DarthYoshi does not say he removed his vote because he no longer found Krazy scummy. DarthYoshi says he removed his vote because not doing so would have made him look bad. This is because DarthYoshi is more worried about how he appears than he is about finding scum. This is because he is scum.

Moreover, and I think I've already said this, when a player is exhibiting such anti-town behavior, I think it is a perfectly legitimate use of one's vote to utilize it in determining whether the player is scum or just playing a bad town game.

OK, so did your vote help you to determine Krazy's alignment? How so?

@ Xtoxm and Iamusername, if you both had to point to one post in this thread you think is the scummiest what would it be, and do you think the person is posted is mafia?

Well, it's hard to narrow it down to a single post, since it's a pattern of behaviour across all of his posts, but I guess this one exemplifies DarthYoshi's scumminess the most. That or the one I just pointed out above.

Yes, I think the person that posted it is probably mafia. I mean, there's a slim chance that he is a townie who has even more of a woefully bad understanding of how to play as town than the rest of this game, but it's becoming increasingly unlikely with every post he makes.

There's definitely an unnatural player relation there, and should Umbrage flip scum, I'd start looking for his scumbuddies in xtoxm.

Xtoxm, I'm not seeing how this makes Snake town. The rest of your town reads I follow, but this one doesn't work for me. Care to shed any more light on it?

[iamausername]

Mafia isn't just finding who you think is scummy, it's convincing everyone of your reads. You aren't doing that.

DarthYoshi isn't even doing the first part, so.

[iamausername]

effectively auto-win position.

60% chance of success

I found your problem.

[iamausername]

Iamusername, as previously stated that's without the possibilty of power-roles clearing or confirming players. I consider that to be great pure-odds of winning.

Don't just say "then the power roles can do the rest". Prove it. Run through the night actions and show me how this will be autowin.

[iamausername]

I've been trying to find where this setup was originally proposed in the open setup nomination thread, becasue I'm sure massclaim possibilities would have been discussed at the time, but no luck so far.

Regfan, after you run through the numbers if scum counterclaim the PsyDet, go ahead and check out what we can do if scum counterclaim the hider or hider tracker too. (You can leave out vig, because duh, real vig shoots the fake vig) I want to see high percentages on every combination of possible scum counters before I'll consider massclaim as a smart strategy. Because my instinct would be that one scum claiming PsyDet, one claiming Hider and one claiming VT, for example, does not create a particularly positive situation for us.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure Regfan is town after this. Whether or not he actually has a breaking strategy, I believe that he believes he does.

[iamausername]

@iamausername: I know it's WIFOM, but it's possible that Regfan

doesn't

really believe that this is a breaking strategy and is only proposing it because he thinks it gives him a good shot at winning as scum.

I find that extremely unlikely, because for Regfan to think that would work, he would have to assume that no one else would notice that it wasn't a breaking strategy, even though he had no trouble noticing it himself. No, Regfan is town.

@ Abelcain: Here's an idea, we could all say who we would hide with before that night if we were the hider.

The hider tracker is there so we don't need to do this. If the hider hides behind scum, the hider tracker can claim tomorrow and get that sum lynched. And if the hider hides behind town, this helps scum find him.

Here's an example of twelve players, and who they say they will hide behind:

Alice -> Harry
Bob -> Daniel

Charlie

-> Fred
Daniel -> Harry
Evelyn -> Fred
Fred -> George

George

-> Fred
Harry -> Alice
Ian -> Daniel
Juan -> Charlie

Katie

-> Bob
Louise -> Evelyn

Scum names in red. Now, the scum know that the hider will not be hiding behind Bob, Ian, Juan or Louise. Instead of there being nine possible townies the hider could be hiding behind, there are only five. They have a much greater chance to get a two-for-one kill than they would without the hypoclaim.

The only way this wouldn't happen is if everybody picks a different target. So if we all agree that if we are the hider, we will hide behind the person below us on the player list, for example, that could work. But I think it's better to just let the hider make his own decision.

VOTE: Quaroath

There are plenty of reasons to be against a massclaim, but to be against it because it would be dull? Wait, ARE you against it? You don't state a definite opinion here. Want to be able to switch to either side, eh?

Isn't it pretty clear by now that the town as a whole is against massclaim? Why would scum Quaroath bother trying to sit on the fence at this point?

[iamausername]

Umbrage, the problem with your case is that you are interpreting Snake asking QUESTIONS like "why is what ConSpiracy did scummy?" and "Why isn't what Xtoxm did more scummy?" as Snake going "GRRRRRRAAAAAGAHGH UMBRAGE YOU SUCCCCCKK!K!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!" just because he also voted you when he asked them. Which he obviously did because it was page fuckin' two, and he did not have anything better to go on.

And then I think you're accusing him of contradicting himself because at one point he said he found you scummy, but at another point he said he didn't? Or something like that? Do you know that reads can change?

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

---

P.S.

If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both.

This guy is still scum.

[iamausername]

I think a laughing emoticon was an entirely appropriate response to "I don't see why scum would not want to move the game past RVS. In fact, the faster we're out of RVS, the faster a lynch will happen, and scum want fast lynches. So if anything, wanting to move the game past RVS is a scumtell."
If you can't see the flaw in that argument you should probably just not play Mafia, to be perfectly frank.

I do see the flaw. That's the whole point: Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum. You come so close to understanding, but clarity still eludes you.

what what what

YOU made that argument. You. It was in your post. I saw it.

[iamausername]

OK, so you don't actually believe that wanting to move the game past random voting is a scumtell. That's good.

New problem: "Snake Eyes made a flawed argument. Thus, he is scum." is another flawed argument. Making flawed arguments is not actually a sign of being scum, otherwise I would be voting for you right now.

I mean, not that I actually agree that Snake Eyes made a flawed argument in the first place, but you know. Baby steps.

[iamausername]

...clear scum motive... ...get me lynched.

Ladies and gentlemen; Umbrage.

[iamausername]

Why else would he want me lynched?

1) Presumably, if he was town who thought you were scum, he would want you lynched.
2) Scum are not out to get you, specifically. There are 9 town players in this game. Scum could be trying to lynch any one of those players. Why do you assume they're trying to lynch

you

?
3) He's not even voting for you any more anyway. What makes you think he does want you lynched?

Even if I was scum, how would he know it at that time?

Well, he'd have to be scum with you. But this is a ridiculous question. You can vote people without being 100% certain that they are scum.

And why did he think CS was town?

Because CS was attempting to push the game past random voting into serious scumhunting, thus seemingly advancing a town win condition. Note also that Snake did not say "ConSpiracy is 100% confirmed town forever IDST". He said "I'm leaning slightly town on Conspiracy."

---

DarthYoshi - I would greatly appreciate if you could summarise the case against him into one post.

I suppose I could do that.

[iamausername]

Here, Regfan.

THESE ARE ALL OF DARTH YOSHI'S POSTS.

Post #8: Nothing wrong with this one.

Post #17: Votes ConSpiracy for doing something pro-town. This is more dumb than scummy, though.

Post #23: Nothing wrong with this one.

Post #47: Loaded questions to four different people, plus a backhanded compliment to one more person. All of these serve to cast a low level of suspicion on each person, and little to no other purpose. The Umbrage question is especially bad in this regard.

Post #51: Says "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science.", continues to imply a Snake Eyes/ConSpiracy scumpair based on next to nothing.

Post #120: Unnecessary over-explanation of his unvote. If you weren't convinced by the previous explanations for why this was scummy, I'm not going to do any better, so etc. Outright states that he is voting Krazy for behaviour "regardless of your alignment". Yoshi is yet to give any actual opinion on anyone. He's casting suspicion at a good half of the player list with loaded questions and insinuations, but he has not tied himself to any strong stance. He is leaving himself completely open to take whatever opinion is convenient later on.

Post #186: "I actually am liking your attempts to scumhunt on the lurkers, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there is a scum or two there, just hanging out while the town points fingers at one another."

Identifies a group, suggests that there is scum in that group, gives no indication of any opinion on which player in that group is more likely to be scum, or any indication that he is trying to determine which player in that group is more likely to be scum.

It's somewhat excusable in this case, since by definition, there's no easy way to determine who is scum out of a group of players who are not participating, but... well, we'll come back to this later.

Post #193: Correcting a minor point.

Post #194: Correcting a minor point.

Post #216: Huge post mostly concerned with defending himself. Vote now moves to Xtoxm for lurking. Still not seeing any actual opinions on who is town and who is scum anywhere. Still just seeing minor insinuations against virtually every player in the game. Specifically states that insinuating relationships between players, like for example the relationship he insinuated between Vordark and ConSpiracy, is scummy.

Post #254: Same again, pretty much.

Post #256: Correcting a minor point.

Post #258: Another huge post defending himself and nothing else.

Post #259: Correcting a minor point.

Post #260: Correcting a minor point.

Post #273: Huge post defending himself and nothing else. Also suggests that because he is no longer making certain fallacious accusations, no one should be allowed to use them against him any more.

Post #285: Yoshi finally finds a stance to commit to; Xtoxm is scum because he's not explaining himself, and straight up admits that he is voting Yoshi because Yoshi has the biggest wagon. That's some bold scumhunting right there.

Also, regarding his Krazy vote: "it would have been scummy to leave my vote on a player who was now being pro-town." Why would a town player be thinking about their own actions in terms of whether or not they are scummy? There's no reason for it. This is not a thing that a town player would say.

Post #286: Correcting a minor point.

Post #290: When Vordark tires of the endless self-replicating quote war and calls it quits, DarthYoshi suggests that he must be operating under confirmation bias because he has given up on trying to convince DarthYoshi that DarthYoshi is scum. "Confirmation bias" is a fun one to fall back on when you can't actually refute the arguments being made against you.

Post #297: DarthYoshi responds to my charge that he is not scumhunting by whining that he can't because all his time has been taken up arguing with Vordark. An argument that he just expended a significant amount of effort cajoling Vordark into continuing.

Also kinda sorta implies that maybe I'm scum, just to see if anyone goes with that.

Post #333: Oh, woe is DarthYoshi, he still can't do any scumhunting, because now he has to defend himself against Snake Eyes too.

Also kinda sorta implies that maybe Snake Eyes is scum, just to see if anyone goes with that.

Post #355: To Snake Eyes: "If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both."

This goes back to the point I made above about his comment that one of the lurkers is probably scum. He's identifying a group, in this case Snake and Umbrage, and suggesting that there is scum in this group, but gives no indication of any opinion on which player in that group is more likely to be scum, or any indication that he is trying to determine which player in that group is more likely to be scum.

He's just stirring the pot on the Snake/Umbrage slap fight with no real justification. It would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that Snake and Umbrage are not scum together based on their spat. It would even be reasonable to draw the conclusion that individually, Snake is scummy, and individually, Umbrage is scummy, but their spat suggests that they are not scum, and therefore one of them is scum but not the other. But that's not what Yoshi has done. He has jumped straight to the conclusion without first finding any reason for either of them to be scummy on their own merits. He has no reason to discount the possibility that this is a town-on-town fight. But he discounts it anyway, because it's not in his interest to point out when townies are town. Because he wants to lynch townies. Because he's scum.

Post #375: Aaaand, nothing wrong with this one. It's a post.

---

tl;dr: lol no I'm not summarising. You'll have to read it all.

In addition to all the above, the fact is that I have not seen one single towntell anywhere amongst his posts. Not even a sentence anywhere amongst the gigantic quote war with Vordark that makes me think "wait, I can't see scum saying that". Not one. I am just about the most confident I have ever been about a D1 vote here.

[iamausername]

1) Presumably, if he was town who thought you were scum, he would want you lynched.

On page 1?

3) He's not even voting for you any more anyway. What makes you think he does want you lynched?

I am talking about how he seemed SO CERTAIN I was scum earlier in the game. Really. If you're going to debate me, try to keep up.

OK, I thought you were somehow under the impression that Snake was still trying to lynch you.

In that case, I revise my question to "What makes you think Snake Eyes was trying to lynch you back then?"

2) Scum are not out to get you, specifically. There are 9 town players in this game. Scum could be trying to lynch any one of those players. Why do you assume they're trying to lynch you?

Because I specifically arranged it that way with my vote on CS.

So you think you managed to do something that townies would clearly see as not scummy, but scum would mistakenly believe was scummy, so the only people attacking you would be scum? Is that what you're saying?

Because CS was attempting to push the game past random voting into serious scumhunting, thus seemingly advancing a town win condition.

Nope. Try again. I already showed that trying to get out of RVS is not a towntell. So why did he find CS town? I still haven't found a valid answer for this.

No you didn't. You gave a ludicrous explanation for how it could be a scumtell, then said "my reason to call it a scumtell was stupid, therefore it's a nulltell."

Whether or not you think it's a towntell, that's it. That's the reason Snake found CS town. You rejecting that reason is not going to change the answer. The answer to the question of "why did Snake find CS town?" is that CS was attempting to push the game past random voting, and it will always be that CS was attempting to push the game past random voting, no matter how many times you repeat the question. No matter how many times you repeat the question, that will be the answer. That is the answer. That's the only answer you'll get. That's it. That's the reason. The reason that Snake found CS town is that. That will be the answer to your question, no matter how many times you repeat it. No matter how many times you repeat it, the answer will be that.

[iamausername]

P.S. If anyone's wondering why I'm not answering any of Umbrage's questions

I'm mostly wondering why I'm bothering.

when I voted DY it was just voting for one of the 4 people that hadn't given me any town inclinations

Iamusername, what say you to this tidbit?

Clearly Xtoxm is being incredibly lazy, and is most likely going to end up being replaced soon, but at least his vote's in the right place. I don't think he's scum.

Just by the by, can anyone remember the last time Ythan said anything that made any kind of impact on this game?

[iamausername]

Xtoxm (5) - DarthYoshi, ConSpiracy, Regfan, Abelcain, Quaroath
DarthYoshi (4) - iamausername, Vordark, Xtoxm, Snake Eyes
Umbrage (1) - Ythan
Snake Eyes (1) - Umbrage
Not Voting (1) - Krazy

I believe the current vote count looks like this.

Ythan, Umbrage, Krazy, we've got under a week until deadline. Unless someone comes up with a compelling new case somewhere, we're not going to get a lynch besides Xtoxm or DarthYoshi. We need to allow some wiggle room in case of claims. You should probably pick a side soon.

[iamausername]

In addition to all the above, the fact is that I have not seen one single towntell anywhere amongst his posts. Not even a sentence anywhere amongst the gigantic quote war with Vordark that makes me think "wait, I can't see scum saying that". Not one. I am just about the most confident I have ever been about a D1 vote here.

Tunneler number two.

did you even read the rest of the post

do you have anything at all to say about the case

or is that it

'lol tunnelling'

why the fuck do i even bother

[iamausername]

because it's not in his interest to point out when townies are town. Because he wants to lynch townies. Because he's scum.

(As an aside, I was hesitant about getting a read on Regfan before he voted, but his entry so far looks pretty townish.)

Just want to point out what an awful response this is.

To Snake Eyes: "If you want other suspects from me, atm I think that probably either you or Umbrage is scum, but not probably not both."

This goes back to the point I made above about his comment that one of the lurkers is probably scum. He's identifying a group, in this case Snake and Umbrage, and suggesting that there is scum in this group, but gives no indication of any opinion on which player in that group is more likely to be scum, or any indication that he is trying to determine which player in that group is more likely to be scum.

He's just stirring the pot on the Snake/Umbrage slap fight with no real justification. It would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that Snake and Umbrage are not scum together based on their spat. It would even be reasonable to draw the conclusion that individually, Snake is scummy, and individually, Umbrage is scummy, but their spat suggests that they are not scum, and therefore one of them is scum but not the other. But that's not what Yoshi has done. He has jumped straight to the conclusion without first finding any reason for either of them to be scummy on their own merits. He has no reason to discount the possibility that this is a town-on-town fight. But he discounts it anyway,

This was the main thrust of the argument, to which he says nothing. No explanation for why it is that he thinks Snake is scum, or why he thinks Umbrage is scum. All he responds to a somewhat facetious closing remark with a statement that's totally unrelated to the main issue here.

But you know, you just go back to lynching Xtoxm because he's not bothering to play the game. Don't mind me, I'm just tunneling.

[iamausername]

In short, I doubted that the SE/Umbrage quarrel was a bus. The Umbrage wagon petered out pretty quick, it wasn’t like SE would have had a ton to gain on D1 by continuing to bus Umbrage, since bussing doesn’t reap rewards until a flip happens. And, FWIW, if I just wanted to paint anyone as scummy, then I would have manufactured some reason to say I saw their interactions as indicative of a bus. Surprise surprise, I didn’t, and I’m not.

Congratulations on explaining why they are obviously not scum together. Now try reading my post again and respond to what I'm actually saying next time. Why is Snake Eyes scummy? Why is Umbrage scummy?

[iamausername]

Just read post #421. Krazy is totally town.

I think the speculation about the possiblity of an Xtoxm/Yoshi scumteam is way off base. There were plenty of lurkers that Yoshi could have chosen to target when he made his vote, I don't think he'd pick his own partner out of that list.

[iamausername]

if xtoxm hadn't claimed and screwed the town.

Fun facts:
- if xtoxm is scum, his claim obviously doesn't screw the town
- so you just made the exact same assumption that you attacked abelcain for
- if xtoxm is town, his claim doesn't actually screw the town anyway, but that's neither here nor there

* I believe if a VT dies during a night phase at any point in the game, then mass-claim is needed, I'll run the numbers of this over later when I have time.

If the hider and hider tracker are both alive tomorrow, the hider tracker should definitely claim. They're really unlikely to both make it through another night, and the HT will be able to clear the hider's target.
If the PsyDet and the TrackVig are both alive too, massclaim is probably the right move, yes. Even if they're not, it might be, but we can run the numbers on that tomorrow.

Ythan, Krazy and Umbrage are still wasting their votes. If you don't feel like lynching scum today, then sacrifice the damn lamb already, gawd.

[iamausername]

I'm going to assume that you hid behind Quaroath because he was a null-read to you and you surviving would mean clearing someone otherwise hard to gain a solid read on, while you dying would confirm him as mafia.

That's pretty much it, yeah. I almost picked Umbrage, but I was too worried that he'd be the vig target. IRONY.

ConSpiracy is the only town player who has any reason to be proud of his player here, the rest of us were all varying degrees of terrible.