Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Quaroath]

PST, GMT - ... 8? I think. Yeah.

Portland, Oregon (Go blazers!)
RVS, because I like the silliness.

I hope to post every day, at minimum every other. I've been having some serious health issues recently but they seem to be fixing themselves now. If I have to V/LA i'll say so.

I played at MS about 4 years ago, lost that account in the migration and figured I'd start over. Also play with a small group in meatworld. I tend to talk myself in circles still, I'm quite rusty. Just started playing MS again about 2 weeks ago.

as for my vote: VOTE: Darth Yoshi cause is Yoshi goes Sith, we are all doomed.

[Quaroath]

@Quaraoth: The Blazers suck, but Portland rules (I lived there for four years before moving to Bezerkeley). (Cue Fred Armisen singing, "The dream of the '90s is alive in Portland...")

BOOOO. Rip City baby! (I have season tickets)

[Quaroath]

*placeholder to avoid a prod* will post later, gotta head downtown to the blazer game.

[Quaroath]

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

[Quaroath]

Umbrage looks like hes flailing around halfway through page 3 (at this point I’m up to post 64)
There is a lot of backtracking and circular logic in his posts, with a good chunk of contradictions. You ain’t lookin good Umbrage.
I have a strong town feeling towards Snake eyes, and a null read on CS to this point, though CS is a hair over the town line.

Krazy, could you put into words on a post why you want to lynch Ythan? Up until #64 you’ve said squat that isn’t “policy lynch”, if in name only, since you can’t talk about ongoing games. Serious Ythan tunneling going on here. PEDIT: nevermind Reached the explosion of posting and figured it out myself.

Umbrage, you got pretty agro towards people with post #66… capslock ftl? I don’t A.) see what you are saying to Vordak here, and B.) really don’t think GOING ALL CAPLOCKAGRO IS GOING TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHATYOU ARE SAYING AND DESIRE TO READ YOUR POSTS. Irony eh?

@Krazy 81, while I do think this is umbrage trying to deflect, you and Ythan have had an… interesting little pat up until this point. Mostly you.

I find the ping pong posting between Krazy and Ythan pretty hardcore personal dispute, over a game dispute. Come on guys and girls, be civil and nice as we lynch people. 34 straigth posts by Krazy and Ythan, mostly @ each other. Is this a record? >_<

@ 119, I’m getting a pretty solid town vibe from Vordak. Solid posts, and very clear in the thought process.
@122/Umbrage. I _ am _so _ not _ feeling _this.

OK, now I'm pissed off.

It's nice that one of Snake's later posts gave you a way to avoid my question, but that still doesn't explain what you thought CS had to gain that Snake didn't when you originally posted that.

It's obvious from his actions Snake wasn't interested in reactions. If he was, he would've pointed out the bad reactions, and attacked other people.

CS's serious votes at that point consisted of the obligatory "Xth vote on anyone in RVS is scummy" vote and your seemingly-OMGUS vote. CS's vote on you was a deliberate third vote. Which one seems like it's more serious?

Fine, it's obvious I can't change your mind on this, but you have to see where I'm coming from. CS' vote on me was not accompanied by any reasoning, or even saying that I'm scum. There is NOTHING there that suggests it's a serious vote. Whereas my case on CS was a true attack.

Nobody else thought there was anything up with the question either. The post was a bandwagon, not a setup. He got the reactions and wagon solely with his vote; the question had nothing to do with it. You're the one searching for a reason to say someone's trying to make you look scummy with an impossible question.

Yes, I realize that NOW, after CS has said the exact same thing. And what is with this whole 'nobody else thought it was scummy' crap? I don't give a shit what the majority thinks, if something strikes me as scummy, I point it out. Only scum try to avoid posting opinions that aren't popular.

Funny that you happened to pull a gambit that makes every single one of your posts look like OMGUS. Especially since your "reasoning" seems to be... well, you like falsely quoting people, right?

YES THAT WAS MY FUCKING MASTER PLAN I NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO OMGUS PEOPLE SO I CREATED THIS GAMBIT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL OMGUS WORKS AND IT IS SUCH A GOOD THING TO DO AS SCUM.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. OMGUS is when you vote someone who is voting you SOLELY because they are voting you. You do not PLAN to OMGUS. OMGUS is bad as town AND as scum. Why would I not only WANT to OMGUS, but actually create a plan to provide an excuse to do it?

That being said, you've "proven" absolutely nothing. All you've gotten Snake to say is that he found you more scummy than ConSpiracy - specifically, that he had no scumreads on CS while you were acting pretty scummy. It's also nice to say that your "serious vote" on CS wasn't really serious and you just said it to lay bait for a trap, but that would mean you saying that your vote was serious was also a lie. "Lynch All Liars" is a popular policy for a reason.

Shut up right now, because you clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. Snake ADMITTED that his vote on me was because he found me SCUMMY, which means he was LYING when he said his vote was just to BANDWAGON to get us out of RVS. You want to lynch a LIAR? Lynch him.

And I'm so sorry for pulling that gambit that got us out of RVS and led us to catch LYING SCUM.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

I unvoted because I believed you. I had no reason to disbelieve you. I suppose I should've picked up on your attempt to get reactions, but somehow I didn't think of that.

ONE LAST NOTE: I'm leaning toward Krazy and Ythan being scum together, and doing this shit to try and distract the town from any actual real scumhunting. I haven't read all of their back and forth, and I don't plan on doing so. They are making this thread almost impossible to read. I will say again: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL SHIT OUT OF THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD!

First, if your post starts off with “I am so pissed off”, you probably shouldn’t be posting because you are going to look like a tool. This is a general theory, don’t road rage, and don’t post rage.
I have a hard time swallowing your constant line about how your play was all a gambit to get everyone past RVS. Baiting yourself is never a good idea, yet you continue to say you did exactly that.

I alo agree with snake’s #134 that you are misrepresenting him with your post.

AKA: ur a hypocrite, but also tl;dr. Usually you can make one criticism or the other, Darth, not both. Please call me a hypocrite; but I also encourage you to actually back up your accusation.

tl;dr is anti-town too. Should we have a "who can be more anti-town" contest?

Someone educate me please, what the heck does tl:dr mean? I haven't seen that before.

Just reached 195. Gonna post this and continue. Don’t expect a whole lot from these posts, but I’m doing due diligence to get caught up.

[Quaroath]

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

Quaroath's last two posts have been placed only to avoid getting prodded and have contained no content. I think he needs some encouragement.

Unvote

Vote: Quaroath

I stopped at #195 for this.

Fair. And deserved. The (what felt like) 5 page explosion while I was at work sunday made it a slog and I put it off.

[Quaroath]

Rereading a couple isos. I have to agree with Ythan that V's #62 is annoying, both to read and to reread.

Holy crap! Did the world implode?

CS says he gets bored of the Umbrage discussion because of the wall posts and also gets bored of my exchange with Ythan; like Darth, basically gives a tl;dr, UNLIKE Darth, goes on to imply that Umbrage et.al is also tl;dr.

I also notice that CS's interest in the game basically seems to drop off simultaneously with V unvoting him.

@CS: Aside from the Umbrage wagon you helped form and then got bored of, I'm not really sure I at this point can characterize you as not also active lurking. Among the Umbrage wagon, if I were to guess that there was someone scum on it (which there is, admittedly, no guarantee), you would be my first guess.

Parts of this post have bothered me for a while, but moreso now that he seems to have ceased actively pursuing the Umbrage wagon:

Think further

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?

"think further" = make my case for me?

"Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?"

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

I would test my theory that CS's interest in the game is directly proportional to the number of votes on him, but I haven't quite gotten all I want out of my vote on TBL yet.

I remember seeing the "think further" post and saying to myself, "It's not that hard to figure it out, I worked it out pretty easy" and now I don't even remember what it was.

After looking back, I think it’s pretty obvious that CS was singling Umbrage out for a reason: That reason? Umbrage said he found RVS meaningless. Who better to target to get past RVS (which would seem to be both peoples goal)

Feel free to correct me CS, but that’s what I got from “think further”

For the record, this is the post the “think further” answer was in response too:

So Umbrage, thoughts on people?

Why me? As I said, I don't consider RVS means much in the way of scum versus town. I really don't think anyone can find scum on page one.

VOTE: ConSpiracy

You singled me out for a reason, but why would you ask for my thoughts when I said I find RVS meaningless?

Think further

Having a scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy.

What is this I don't even

Huh? Rather incomplete sentence there. I'll provide my understanding of what abel was saying though, just because A has a scumread on B, doesn't necessarily equal A thinks B is scummy.

Processing for a few minutes. Will do so Krazy. (@Krazy's last)

[Quaroath]

Except it does mean that. That's what it means.

That's my inclination too, but it doesn't seem to be what Abelcain was saying.

[Quaroath]

@iamausername

Krazy and I are of like mind, that is the next question I was going to ask and one I would also like to hear the answer to.

Count me on this as well, what in particular about DarthYoshi's posting doesn’t seem town to you? I get a decently town vibe from him. You’ve posted 4 times and have clearly stated you think Darth doesn’t look town in his posts. Why?

On that note, RVS vote needs to come off.

unvote

Now to apply some plz answer pressure

vote: iamausername

@vordark: Would you mind sharing your thoughts on Darth Yoshi as well? I’m curious about what you think. Of all the active people he’s the one you’ve had the least involvement/interaction with in my eyes.

@Snake Eyes: in post #191 you say:

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

I’m not really following the argument you are making here. This seems loaded with WIFOM. Yes it’s easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailtown. It’s also easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailscum. I don’t see how this isn’t null, because it feels so circular.

Are you more or less inclined to think Umbrage is scum based off the speed of the wagon? Why?
Those are the questions I have off the top of my head. I’m sure more will come to the fore

@tom: 2 posts? Please be more involved. Just in prod avoid posts I outdid you (pot, kettle)
@TBL, please break from your “Brothers” play style

[Quaroath]

I'm catching up now: Post by no later than 830 AM PST tomorrow (It is late for me atm). Will

unvote

since iamusername is talking

[Quaroath]

@ Darth Yoshi #254 @Quaraoth: It sounds like you're backtracking from your pro-town read on me. Is that because of Vordark's case, or are there other reasons?

…. I hadn’t even posted between when I said I read you town and this post. Wtf!

Anyways, no I still feel you are town. The argument, if you want to call it that, between you and vordark has only reinforced that belief. You’ve answered to the questions posed to you reasonably). As the walls have grown you haven’t strayed or circled back to contradict yourself. I think that you are on firm ground on your position. I consider the lack of waffling a pro-town tell. Scum go with the wind, something you haven’t done. I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said (I’m really not getting some of the back and forth with you and vordak) but you don’t feel particularly scummy to me.



@ Vordak #262, While I understand there isn’t an *implicit* defense of CS by SE, I read an implied defense. Maybe we are just reading the posts and getting deferent things out of them.

@Abelcain #274

Teeing up mislynches has nothing to do with the fallacy of the excluded middle. It is scum misrepping a connection with a player in order to get that player mislynched. It's manipulation, not a fallacy

There's an article on the wiki and I'm sure the Googles can help you.

I am unfamiliar with this fallacy. Please explain.

Your first bit is obviously committing the fallacy of the excluded middle.

Yeah, there totally is not any scum motivation in insinuating relationships between players. Totally not a way to tee up future (mis)lynches..

your responce to this was:

: So... are you admitting that you're scum using a manipulation and not a fallacy? Vordark said you were committing the fallacy by saying that people had to believe that the question was scummy or not scummy, and that Snake must think it wasn't scummy because there was a possibility, not a certainty, that it was town. You're right that teeing up mislynches via connection has nothing to do with the fallacy, but Vordark never said that either. Way to misrepresent what he said though by trying to attribute the fallacy to Snake, though.

In the end, Vordark brings up a fallacy that doesn’t apply to the situation, Yoshi points this out, and abel implies that by pointing out that the fallacy doesn’t apply, Darth is scumy. When I read this, (and I had to look up the fallacy) it didn’t read that the fallacy applied only to the first sentence, but the first portion of the post, which was the first two sentances in the nest. I'm not sure you aren't misrepresenting the conversation yourself.

Re highlighting this one for snake eyes, because I really want an answer to it when he gets to posting:
@Snake Eyes: in post #191 you say:
Snake Eyes wrote:
Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

I’m not really following the argument you are making here. This seems loaded with WIFOM. Yes it’s easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailtown. It’s also easy for scum to add votes if Umbrage is flailscum. I don’t see how this isn’t null, because it feels so circular.

Are you more or less inclined to think Umbrage is scum based off the speed of the wagon? Why?
Those are the questions I have off the top of my head. I’m sure more will come to the fore

[Quaroath]

Anyways, no I still feel you are town. The argument, if you want to call it that, between you and vordark has only reinforced that belief. You’ve answered to the questions posed to you reasonably). As the walls have grown you haven’t strayed or circled back to contradict yourself. I think that you are on firm ground on your position. I consider the lack of waffling a pro-town tell. Scum go with the wind, something you haven’t done. I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said (I’m really not getting some of the back and forth with you and vordak) but you don’t feel particularly scummy to me.

I agree with none of this here. Particularly that DY has answered the questions posed to him "reasonably". I also wouldn't put too much stock in a lack of waffling and not going "with the wind" as town-tells. Scum don't waffle as much as you seem to think they do.

Okay, I can understand that from within the conversation you are having with Darth how this can be the impression you got. It's just not what I was getting. I'll do a more complete reread on the whole conversation to try to figure out what either A.) I'm missing, or B.) why I don't agree with you.

I'm relatively new to the site, but from the games I've read through I'd gotten the impression scum tend to dip their toes and end up talking themselves in circles while moving their opinions around. This led to obvious contradictions that gave them away. It's entirely possible that my random game election gave me a bias in this aspect of the game, one I am willing to reconsider.

@ Vordak #262, While I understand there isn’t an *implicit* defense of CS by SE, I read an implied defense. Maybe we are just reading the posts and getting deferent things out of them.

There isn't an "implicit" defense but you read an "implied" defense? And no, there is no defense there at all. It is not a question of getting different things out of the posts, it is a matter that the definition being used for "defense" here is too broad to be useful and also covers things that Umbrage and DY have both been doing.

Fair enough, it's probably me using an overly broad definition, and your using a more narrow one conflicting. I guess that having SE say CS wasn't being scummy with his actions towards Umbrage, without CS really having the opportunity to rebut it effectively himself was a defense of CS The second option I can read into it is that it's not a defense of CS, but of the thought process behind what CS did. The second option is also entirely possible.

In the end, Vordark brings up a fallacy that doesn’t apply to the situation, Yoshi points this out, and abel implies that by pointing out that the fallacy doesn’t apply, Darth is scumy. When I read this, (and I had to look up the fallacy) it didn’t read that the fallacy applied only to the first sentence, but the first portion of the post, which was the first two sentances in the nest. I'm not sure you aren't misrepresenting the conversation yourself.

The "Hunting for scumpairs before there have been any flips is junk science" comment is strange as well. SE is talking about what happens "should Umbrage flip scum". It is also natural, and necessary, to look for relationships between the players as early as possible. All in all, it's a suspicious sentence.

Yeah, there totally is not any scum motivation in insinuating relationships between players. Totally not a way to tee up future (mis)lynches.

I personally think that hypothesizing about relationships so early in the game needs to be taken with a few grains of salt. Associative tells only become tells usually when flips have occurred. Meta me, and you’ll see I hold to this belief as town.

Your first bit is obviously committing the fallacy of the excluded middle. Also your comment that looking at relationships so early in the game "needs to be taken with a few grains of salt" is backing off your earlier, much stronger statement that it is "junk science". Discussing associative tells before a flip is useful, if for no other reason than making it easier to pick out after a flip.

The fallacy of the excluded middle certainly applies. I state that looking for relationships between the players as early as possible is natural and necessary. DY runs to the far end of the spectrum and claims it has a scum motivation and is a way to tee up future mislynches. There is a wealth of possibilities in there that DY ignores as a debate tactic. This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. There is a touch of the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses mixed with sarcasm as an appeal to emotion (which may be the reason for some people's confusion), but the fallacy of the excluded middle is most applicable because DY is ignoring his

earlier

statement that looking for these relationships was simply not useful. Regardless, looked at from any angle, DY's argument here is a scumtell.[/quote]

Okay, NOW I get what you are saying.

Having taking a closer look at Ythan, he's not been as complacent as I had initially thought.

I'm left with CS, TBL, Abelcain and DarthYoshi as people who less appear to be acting with town motivations than everyone else.

Vote: DarthYoshi

Why him rather than the others? Because he has the most votes.

Still completely devoid of content.

Not to mention scummy as fuck, jumping on the biggest bandwagon just because its the biggest.

[Quaroath]

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

[Quaroath]

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

VOTE: Quaroath

There are plenty of reasons to be against a massclaim, but to be against it because it would be dull? Wait, ARE you against it? You don't state a definite opinion here. Want to be able to switch to either side, eh?

Yes I am, because it makes the game far more boring. I like how you jump on me when I'm not the first one to point that out.

Krazy was

[Quaroath]

Been getting my ass kicked at work, will catch up nd post toniht i hope, maybe tomorrow.

[Quaroath]

I feel like this game is stalling some whilst this Regfan/Iam/Umbrage triangle keeps jabbering. (As an aside, I was hesitant about getting a read on Regfan before he voted, but his entry so far looks pretty townish.) 1 week to deadline, folks.

@Krazy: Any particular reason why your vote remains on ConSpiracy? It seems like a somewhat outdated vote from my perspective.

@Abelcain and Quaraoth: Please put some votes out, like, now.

@Xtoxm: You’ve picked up your prod, some content would be nice.

Will be re-reading Abelcain in light of Regfan’s scumread on him. If I have time to do a full ISO, I will.

vote Xtomx

Top suspect right now. Never got a comfortable feeling from him. A brief summary from my end of his posts:

I think Ythan might be scum because he was complacent. when he and krazy were blowing the thread up.
Oh wait, Yhtan wasn't complacent
Oh, Darth Yoshi Wagon, I want a ride!
I now feel DY is scum, though I already voted him, and the reasons are here and here. (Points to Abelcain/DY argument). But still.. I'm not going o really get involved. (wheels that wagon without pushing it)
Comment on Regfans game molasses inducing massclim discussion. Pretty much with the majority on mass claim = unwelcome at the least, and likely bad.
Posted 2 days ago to say ooh i haven't posted in 4 days. Darn, seemed like yesterday.... and __________
still no other post?


@activity, My wife is currently hospitalized, she had a lung partially collapse Tuesday night. I'm going to be more involved once that situation resolves. She comes home tomorrow, and that'll help, a lot.

[Quaroath]

While I do agree with the rest of your points here on why town-Xtoxm's claim puts the town in danger, I just want to make sure that you also realize that

by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero

(assuming he's not scum himself), so take that into account when you also give reasons showing the scum chance of getting a PR.

...

What...

That's a scumclaim. How else would you know xtoxm would flip town?

VOTE: Abelcain

xtoxm can wait. Lynching claimed scum D1 trumps any other strategy.

This is crazy. I don’t get how you read what Abel posted as a scum-claim. This feels like scum-reaching.

Wow, hit the submit button by mistake. Okay, I first want to point out that Umbrage replaced the name in the quote from me with xtoxm, which... I don't even know how or why that's supposed to make sense. But that's not my point.

While I do agree with the rest of your points here on why

town-Xtoxm's claim

puts the town in danger, I just want to make sure that you also realize that by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero

(assuming he's not scum himself)

, so take that into account when you also give reasons showing the scum chance of getting a PR.

I was replying to your four reasons why Xtoxm has to die if he's town. He obviously has to die if he's Mafia anyway, but you listed four reasons that he had to die if he's town, and I was pointing out that one of them says we have a better chance of hitting scum tomorrow, but only if we assume that Xotxm is town, which means we have a zero percent chance of catching scum.

Next time you complain about people not paying attention to the entirety of one of your posts, make sure you pay attention to everyone else's too. Otherwise it makes you look like a hypocrite and dumbass.

*snicker*

I was replying to your four reasons why Xtoxm has to die if he's town. He obviously has to die if he's Mafia anyway, but you listed four reasons that he had to die if he's town, and I was pointing out that one of them says we have a better chance of hitting scum tomorrow, but only if we assume that Xotxm is town, which means we have a zero percent chance of catching scum.

I never assumed xtoxm was town. I don't know how the hell you can think that from my posts. You are assuming that. Why?

Neither did he, he even said “I just want to make sure that you also realize that by deciding to lynch him today we are reducing our chances of lynching scum today to zero (assuming he's not scum himself)”
I’m pretty sure that if we lynch xtomx there is a 100% chance we lynch a townie or a scum. If we lynch xtomx and he’s town.. I’m pretty sure there is a 0% chance on lynching scum today.

[

Umbrage is apparently pushing some case and yet again and again he goes off on a dubious interpretation of a single post to ignore his suspect and hop on someone else.

This. I hate all this vote-hopping. Everyone stop acting scummy so I don't have to keep changing suspects.

This post is bad bad bad. You drop every case you have for a shiny coin.

That's not going to cut it. You aren't acting like you really have a suspect.

Uh-Huh. And what do you call my case on Snake Eyes? I'd still be on him if xtoxm hadn't claimed and screwed the town.

Assume for a moment xtomx is town. Now, you play the part of xtomx:
Now, ask yourself, what would you claim as a townie, at L-1 and about to be mislynched?
1. “Hi, I’m scum, lynch me”,
2. “Hi I’m a town PR”,
3. “Hi, I’m Vanilla Townie”
Those are the three options, which one would you have him take?

And you drop your hard earned case against CS for a claim that was forced and was the only claim, no matter what role xtomx had, he could make? That’s crap.

You're dodging. I don't care about what you're saying about him, except that for a case you care so much about you seem to drop it pretty quick. Repeatedly.

QFT

VOTE: Umbrage

[Quaroath]

Yeah I know. It's still over a day away. 42 hours in fact

[Quaroath]

I'd like to think I did a good job not implicating who I was with and implicating those I wanted to. Pod ate up my contact with others to find scum. I was very surprised I was vigged n1 but all in all I think I did okay for first game as scum. I pit alot of egoist in the little time I had to buddy and distance to confuse town

Gg all

[Quaroath]

Egoist = effort. Doh

[Quaroath]

L
O
L