A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Benmage]

Raivann the Petyr Balish thing was a lie.

LL is the Mountain that Moves.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.13

Twilight Sparkle (6) Magua, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Raivann, Zdenek, Hasdgfas

Bunnylover (3) Ghostlin, xvart, Danakillsu
Setael (1) DrippingGoofball
danakillsu (1) Kast
Ghostlin (1) DTMaster
Thor665 (5) Twilight Sparkle, Locke Lamora, Shadow1psc, Nexus, Bunnylover
Feysal (1) LynchMePls
DrippingGoofball (1) Feysal
Nexus (1) Setael

Not voting (1) Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No majority at deadline and there'll be no lynch.

Envoy to the Eyrie

[/u]

Setael (2) Magua, Danakillsu

Bunnylover (5) MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, Nexus, hasdgfas, Setael

Raivann (4) Bunnylover, Ghostlin, xvart, Feysal
Zdenek (2) Kast, Twilight Sparkle
Thor665 (2) Zdenek, Benmage
Nexus (1) Raivann,
xvart (1) DTMaster

Not nominating (4) Shadow1psc, DrippingGoofball, Locke Lamora, Thor665

With 21 alive it takes 11 to sent someone to the Eyrie

* Eddard Stark can't sleep
* No one due a prod (Will edit if that is incorrect)
* Kast is on V/la. As is Nexus. As is Zdeneek.
* Any mistakes in the VC point them out
*The deadline can be found here.

[Benmage]

No, because I’m not going to let your post disappear into the depths of a Large Theme thread while we waited on your erstwhile companions. You three are a single slot – I’m not obligated to not address what I see as inconsistencies or play made by one with potential scum motivation just because you are ‘deferring’ your read to the others.

Maclock and VP made quite a bit of hay in Clash by using the dividing up their interactions and using alternating views to distance from bad positions. They were scum, for the record.

bababaBURN.

While I certainly sympathize with the TS wagon, why is it so much better than Feysal?

More votes?

As of right now I have a strong town read on you for your reactions post Has' kill and your pressure on Magua among other things. I also can understand your vote on us. Basically your tone feels much more genuine these days I am comfortable with you, even if you're not with us.
~Sotty

Yeah..lets go back to my no lynch no NK theory...We can all tie.

I have to go and cook some supper but I plan to be back later and finish my ISOs.
~Sotty

Wait what.... Thats it? But I thought:

I have just finished catching up! I'm up to date for the first time in over two weeks.

!?!?!? You have no notes... nothing...to share with us after catching up from 2 weeks of being behind...Just this koombai song with MoI....Sotty you gotta be F-ing kidding me....Just walk over and hand me the rope now.

[Twilight Sparkle]

Oh, happy days.

Benmage, when I saw yet more of your attack and tunneling and cheerleading for votes on us the way you did to Percy in Zachtown in the Mountains, I'll admit my blood pressure rose, and I literally wanted to inflict physical violence on you. It was hard to even concentrate on this game because wall after wall of nitpicking over every throwaway sentence we made long after we'd started picking up our play was demoralizing (although having three players to fight arguments off at once helps a lot).

So now I don't even have to answer it, because we're not getting lynched today. We're DEFINITELY not getting lynched today.

Someone else is.

So guys. I will spend tonight on a monster case. Unfortunately, I'll only have time for one subject:

1) The player with whom I have reservations the size of a small continent and whose every post raises yet another alarm bell, simply because a couple of the arguments he's pushing are so ridiculous that I'm shocked he could genuinely believe them as town, but who wouldn't be my top choice for a lynch this early on.

2) The player who has virtually claimed scum.

Which would you prefer? I'm leaning toward 2, but the drama of leaving you hanging and doing 1 first is tempting.

~Mina

[Twilight Sparkle]

I left out a sentence in the above post. I was going to say, "But then a miracle happened" before the "so we don't have to even answer your post."

[Twilight Sparkle]

Also, your entire case on me is based on the fact that I agree with others about you, which is not a scum tell.

Case? What case? We’ve posted why you’re pinging us as scummy, and asked a few questions. No case.

This

, darling, is our case.

Point One: Inconsistency re: LL, but more importantly, his sidestepping around whether he could consider LL to be third party.

This is the crown jewel of the case. I am, quite frankly, comfortable lynching off of this alone. Let’s recap:

Locke is pretty much confirmed town, although he could be a serial killer.

Trying to undermine someone who most people are perceiving as almost confirmed town is scummy.

His extremely forced, careful speech instantly pinged me as wrong. “Who most people are perceiving as almost confirmed town?” So, I asked him about it:

Your extremely careful language on this ("who most people are perceiving?") needs some elaboration. What do you think about LL?

To which he responded:

I don't think that he's scum.

There are two different interpretations of his comment, and both are absolutely awful:

Interpretation A:

He thinks Locke is confirmed town. Yet, for some mysterious, arcane reason, he did not say “trying to undermine someone who is confirmed town is scummy”, but instead, “Trying to undermine someone who most people are perceiving as almost confirmed town is scummy.” Not only that, but he ALSO didn’t clarify that he thinks Locke is confirmed town the second go-around, when I asked him about it. If he believes LL is confirmed town, then

he himself

is undermining him, by keeping him read of LL-confirmed town wrapped up as a secret. This is nonsensical, which suggests...

Interpretation B:

He thinks Locke is either town or third party. Think about this one. He thinks that LL is likely confirmed town, but could be a third party - exactly the position we’ve expressed in thread. And yet, we are “scummy” for it. In what world does this make sense? In what world is it scummy to point out that a pseudo-confirmed town might actually be third party when

you yourself

think he might actually be third party??

And it gets even worse. Regardless of whether we’re in case A or B, his answer is terrible. But as a townie, he should have at least committed to an answer. Why not? Surely, if you have a confirmed town read, you’d want to say it (especially if you think undermining this confirmed town is scummy.) Surely, if you think someone has a risk of being third party, you’d want to say it. But Zdenek was extremely careful to say *neither*. Why?

Because we caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. In his haste to paint every little thing we do as scummy, he forgot to fully think his fake positions through. Now, we’ve said, “are you eating COOKIES, mister?” and he’s decided to shove the cookies straight in his mouth and hope we don’t ask him to open it. A townie has zero reason not to clarify; a scumbag has every reason to hope we’ll let the issue lie.

More incoming...

[Twilight Sparkle]

Point Two: Zdenek’s inconsistency on MoI’s interactions with me

Actually, Mina and hito are in disagreement as to which point is the crown jewel.  This is what I (Mina) was referring to when I’d said someone was confirmed scum.  Looking back, I took ONE thing out of context that could allow for Zdenek-town, but he still looks all kinds of nasty.

For the next section, I’ll keep track of post numbers and links as well as quotes.  The timing of Zdenek’s posts in relation to what’s going on in the thread at the time is as damning as the posts themselves.

Sotty already mentioned the huge discrepancy between Zdenek raising us D1 (during which he strongly doubted TS was scum and voting us D2.  Reads change, sure, but most of his issues with us are from D1.  Why didn’t he comment on any of this at the time?

At the beginning of D2, Zdenek says this:

I agree with MoI that Twilight Sparkle's use of soft accusations against him is scummy.

Later on, when called on his lack of substantiation behind his TS vote beyond "I agree with MoI/Benmage/Magua," his reasoning includes the following:

To me, Twilight's accusation reads as an attempt to drive wedge between Benmage and MoI who's co-operation could be strongly pro-town.

So Zdenek found Twilight’s D1 interactions with Benmage and MoI scummy? Because they were trying to keep two town heroes apart?

There’s only one problem:

Exhibit A: Some posts that could be interpreted as "soft accusations" of Magna (although they were genuine) or questioning his Benmage Raise: Post 87, Post 341, Post 460, Post 516, Post 588, Post 793.

Exhibit B: Post, Zdenek

agrees

with our read on Magna

Exhibit C: Post 346, Zdenek says his read of Benmage has weakened, and

raises

Sparkle.

Zdenek never mentions MagnaofIllusion or Twilight Sparkle afterward beyond moving his raise to Benmage for "liking his observation" (what observation?).

Exhibit D: Post 758, Zdenek’s last post of D1 with actual content. Post 799, Zdenek’s last post of the day.

The only post of ours he MIGHT have missed was 793, if he rushed out on his V/LA.

Busted.

Why didn’t you have a problem with our breaking up Magna’s and Benmage’s protown union BEFORE you’d raised us?  Why didn’t you dislike our "soft accusations" of Magna before then?

This implies that his claim to have suspected us for softly attacking Magna and for interrupting the MoI-Benmage lovefest were disingenuous.  Zdenek doesn’t believe in his own cases.  Why did his opinion change? On D1, we were a leading raise wagon, and on D2, we were a leading lynch wagon.

HOWEVER...I am deliberately omitting certain events from the chronology that weaken my catch.  Why?  Not to make our case look more impressive.  Because before I give Zdenek an out, I’d like him to answer this:

-Did you find TS’s "soft accusations" and probing of MoI’s Raise on Benmage suspicious at the time?  Why didn’t you mention it?
-Do you think both Magna and Benmage are town?
-Was there ever a point during D1 when you found Magna townish?  When and why did your read change?
-Was there ever a point during D1 when you found us scummy?  When and why did your read change?

I want you to walk us through your entire thought process and explain how you went from "Everyone is raising TS! Raise them!" to "Everyone is voting TS! Vote them!"  No, not just a laundry list of complaints. How exactly your read evolved.

Point Three: Sheepy play and safe, convenient stances

In Zdenek’s eighteen posts, he goes with the flow and rarely follows through on his early-game suspicions.  It’s hard to tell which of his contributions are more original than others purely from his ISO, but aside from his TS case sheeping, he parrots me on MagnaofIllusion and Magua on diddin.

As mentioned in Point 3, Zdenek followed the tide with his Raise and vote on Twilight Sparkle. On D2, he flip-flops and agrees with MoI’s TS case, but doesn’t vote.  Doesn’t follow up on any of the players he’d attacked on D1 (Kast, MoI, BL, GreyICE/DTM).  He makes superficial comments on four players.  For example, he attacks Magua, who he’d previously said was unlikely to be Stark, for his stance on Cow’s posting restriction from pages ago.  Still no vote.

Then, only after TS becomes the largest wagon, he sheeps MoI, Ben and Magua (remember, MoI and Magua were scumreads of his before).  Remember, this was before Magna’s big TS case summarizing his suspicions.  Without saying which arguments in particular he likes, he places his vote:

I find the arguments by Magua, benmage and MoI against Twilight Sparkle to be the most convincing ones so far, and I agree with them. I also strongly dislike Thor's play for reasons that have been pointed out by others (not reading the thread, not scum hunting), so

Vote Twilight Sparkle
Nominate Thor

No one has a problem with this at all?

At this point, TS and Thor are both the leading wagons, so this is a safe position.

I find it a scumtell when someone who's hesitant to vote only does so to put someone who's already getting lots of votes.  In general, more reckless players tend to be aggressive bandwagoners, while more cautious ones are often afraid to cast a vote on someone who’s in more danger of a lynch.

His own points are usually inane, and couched in general, wishy-washy language.  Examples:

do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?

I am undecided, but my impulse is to give it Benmage and see what he does with it. I have to think more about this game though.

As far as the hascow business is concerned, I don't feel that it would be a good day one lynch for strategic reasons, much like any policy lynch.

I like Benmage's observation and my reads on some people are changing, so Unraise Twilight Sparkle
Raise Benmage.

Only when we call him on sheeping does he defend his vote with his own rather spurious reasons.  Which leads us to...

[Twilight Sparkle]

Point Four: Tilting at Windmills

These are, I freely admit, less damning as scumtells. I place them here because, together with the other evidence, they suggest the overarching theme that Zdenek is simply trying to find as many “points" to raise as possible. They are seriously vacuous, and in some cases downright moronic. Having a bad justification isn’t a scumtell per se; but when you apparently deemed raising these trivial, frivolous points as the most important use of catch-up time, it suggest that you’re simply ISOing us, looking for anything you can twist as scummy, and going, without taking time to consider if it’s actually scummy or worth mention.

Hey, remember when I said “downright moronic"?

First of all, I see that there is an inconsistency in how TS wants to treat almost confirmed town players: hascow and LL.

Let us review why these almost confirmed town players are such:

Locke Lamora: zoraster’s flip has virtually confirmed him to be Gregor Clegane. Gregor Clegane is in the employ of the Lannisters. However, he is also known for being only loosely controlled and killing hundreds of people unnecessarily...killing them

serially

, if you will. We don’t know how all of the kills last night went down. Thus, we suggested that the town keenly watch for evidence that there is a serial killer at night, and to consider that LL could fit in that slot.

cow: Cow claimed Illyn Payne, a completely loyal envoy of the Lannisters who is a logical dayvig. People asked if he was a dayvig. Then, he dayvigged. The only way he could be a SK is as a daykilling post-restricted SK. This is extremely unlikely, and in the small event it is true, it will be much more apparent later (night kills are ambiguous; daykills are clearly linked to cow.)

So yes, there are inconsistent views, because one is confirmed as Gregor Clegane, and one is confirmed as

the dayvig.

I find it hard to believe that, in the time you spent typing that, you failed to recognize the difference.

As far as lack of scum hunting goes. Twilight has been guilty of wasting time trying to figure out hascow's post restriction, arguing about policy lynching, talking about Hascow's post restriction, posting pictures, appeals to emotion about the state of the hydra.

Let’s break it down:

Twilight has been guilty of wasting time trying to figure out hascow's post restriction,

Trying to see what our  restricted player can say is certainly not a waste of time.

And obviously, you didn’t think so either.

If you think hasdgfas is scummy (DGB), that's fine. Concentrating solely on the technical points of his post restriction (danakillsu) is useless.

I disagree with this. If we can figure out the technical points of his post restriction, then we can determine when/if he's broken it, and if there are no repercussions, then we know he's faking it.

Though I suppose I never did mention why I asked if he could dance. By the range of actions he exhibited previously, it was obvious that he could dance, but if he was faking his PR he might say no just because he can. He gave the right answer, and when the dayvig actually came it made the whole debate moot.

arguing about policy lynching

Was it a waste when Benmage did so?

talking about Hascow's post restriction,

You really wanted this list as long as possible, didn’t you?

posting pictures,

oh ho ho, this one I gotta hear. I have never, ever posted a picture and only a picture. I use them to show my mood to certain posts in a more memorable way. What exactly are you saying here? Is posting pictures a scumtell? Is time being wasted because I post pictures?

appeals to emotion about the state of the hydra.

This one I’ll give you. As it happens, we’re just mad, but there’s no way to know that and so assuming you think AtE is a scumtell (I don’t personally) it’s worth bringing up.

Let’s also review a certain exchange.

Zdenek asks us to explain this post:

Beyond that, I suspect to find at least one scum in kast/lmp/nexus/mikujin.

We do:

Just saying that they're my second-tier scumreads.

First tier is dana and {Thor, Raivann}.

Second tier is kast/lmp/nexus/mikujin. Those are players without too much content/hard to read/gut pings. I'm not willing to call "you're scum" on any of them, but I expect that at least one of the four is going to end up scum and I'm keeping an alert eye as to which one.

It makes more sense if you read the whole ISO specatuclar.

and he responds:

I asked  because I wanted to see if you were also suggesting that there is a connection between these players. Your phrasing of: I expect to find one scum in these four, when there is no connection between the players bothers me. It feels like you cared more about making a post that sounded as though you were scum hunting hard, rather than one that properly conveyed what you wanted to say.

This jab makes no sense.  hito was PRETENDING to look like he was scumhunting, so he mistakenly worded his post ambiguously

because he was so distracted by fake-scumhunting.

 Whereas, had he

really

been scumhunting, Zdenek would have

never

misinterpreted hito’s post, because, um...explain this?

I suspect Zdenek planned to attack us for a weak connections case, but had to change his tune when hito answered differently.

Point Five: Inconsistency regarding Danakillsu

This one is short and sweet.

Dana:

I see very little scum hunting in Danakillsu's posts. Early in the day, he was guilty of posting pro-town fluff:

raise: DGB For pointing out how stupid it is to self-raise. We all get that you want to tell us you're town and you trust yourself. It doesn't even need to be stated. Now start trying to play the actual game.

Wrong. You are not keeping anything from happening by raising yourself. If we wanted to raise somebody else, we could do so whether you were raising yourself, someone else, or no one. Your job in this game is to convince other people that certain players are town or scum, and a raise of yourself because "you trust yourself and nobody else" doesn't help anyone. Let me put it this way: Do you lynch vote exclusively to see the person you vote for lynched?

I also don't think that he was being honest about his awareness of the statistics of self-raising from the last game. I also feel that he wasted a lot of time talking about self-raising and hascow's post restrictions rather than scum hunting. Additionally, there his jumping at the chance to vote for xvart based on GreyICE's incorrect reading of his posts.

danakillsu

The most interesting thing is the dana<--->mijukin interaction. He's been voting for mijukin for most of the game (in one memorable occasion, voting for mijukin while he was already voting for mijukin.)

His vote for him today was framed thusly:

I had this read yesterday, I still have it today. Vote: Mikujin

"I had this read yesterday" doesn't sit at all well with me. Scum are oftentimes over-focused on consistency over anything else, and that seems awfully much like "hey guys, look, I didn't change my mind." A mijukin townflip casts a serious shadow on dana.

Zdenek responds to our point on danakillsu thusly:

Or it's a townie with a static read from one day to the next. I don't see how a Mikujin town flip could cast doubt on Dana, and view this as a poor attack on Dana.

He’s extremely quick to about-face on Dana when doing so gives him another “point" to push on. Was his push on Mikujin scumhunting or no?

[Twilight Sparkle]

So, in conclusion, zdenek:

Unvote, Vote: zdenek

Unominate, Nominate: Thor665

The preceding posts have been a hito and Mina production. Tickets are non-refundable.

[Twilight Sparkle]

PS. That was the 2.) Mina was referring to, in case there was ambiguity.

-hito

[danakillsu]

@ Benmage
It's too bad you don't want me voting either of my scumreads. But I have more support with lynching Bunnylover, so hopefully someone else will see the light and join me. If you can manage to convince everyone else, though, I'll have to lynch one of your chosen candidates and nominate Bunnylover instead. It's hard to accomplish much when few agree with you...

[Setael]

You mention in passing not liking his attack on Magua. You then say you have a scummy feel about him but won't put a vote there until you've read the whole thread and you will have to ISO read him. In your next post, you say you're all caught up but you don't mention diddin AT ALL. Seems pretty clear you never bothered to ISO him. It'd be one thing if after your read you no longer saw him as scummy, but that's supposedly not the case. The next (and only other thing) you say about him is this post I find so scummy where you throw in the little honorary "And from diddin". At the time you made this post, if you still had a scummy feel from him, why is this ALL you've said about him? Why didn't you bother to ISO him? Why didn't you mention him at all once you'd finished the thread?

There seems to be something amiss here. I did mention diddin in the post where I said I was completely caught up, that was the "And from diddin" post. Reason I did not say anything more about him was that while I still found him and zoraster scummy, I found both DGB and Raivann scummier, so I focused on the one I found scummiest.

OK I looked over your posts again and you're right that your ISO post 6 is where you say "and from diddin". (I thought it was the following post). The only thing that changes is that instead of saying nothing on your catch up post (after saying you need to ISO diddin and think he's scummy), you just say "and from diddin". The argument stands. Rather than really looking into his play like you said you needed to, you just said you still got a scum vibe from him and that's it. You left yourself open to bus him by saying you thought he was scummy without ever analyzing him, giving reasons for thinking he's scummy, or really saying anything about him at all.

Can you even provide those reasons now? I'm mostly interested in why you didn't bother to give them then, but I would like to see why you supposedly thought he was scummy. Was it

just

his attack on magua that you mentioned?

As I've said, I think the reason is you were covering your bases. Every time you mentioned diddin D1 you called him scum, but did nothing else. Kept yourself open to bus him while keeping your vote and "suspicions" firmly elsewhere.

One question about this, would this not be something town could do as well? Do you expect me to push all of my scum reads with equal fervor, regardless of how scummy I find them? I pushed my main suspect and left my secondary suspects for later.

I don't think town is likely to do what you did, no. Finding someone scummy, saying you need to do an ISO and then never mentioning them again except to say you still think they're scummy. A townie would give reasons. I'm not convinced you had any reasons. I think you just wanted to be able to bus if needed.

@ Benmage
It's too bad you don't want me voting either of my scumreads. But I have more support with lynching Bunnylover, so hopefully someone else will see the light and join me. If you can manage to convince everyone else, though, I'll have to lynch one of your chosen candidates and nominate Bunnylover instead. It's hard to accomplish much when few agree with you...

I'd definitely like to see that support. I'm also feeling scum vibes from bunny, but I haven't had a chance to ISO her yet. I don't see much from you about her at all (though let me know if I'm missing something). Regardless of who Benmage says he'll allow lynched today, you should be posting your suspicions.

This is all I see in the thread:

He's seemed pretty scummy this game, but not too outspoken either, like he has something to hide.

I will never, in my entire time on this site, when I am town, allow anyone to separate me from my reads. What would really make me worthless would be to sheep you and the others saying Thor is scum, like Bunnylover-scum just did.

What I have so far (pre-ISO) I think her play on the diddin wagon is suspect:

I just got through reading Diddin ISO, and throughout it I didn't get a single read of if he's scum or town.
I actually like his last post he made.
I believe Diddin is scumhunting or at least trying to.

Also this:

@LL: Yes.

@LMP: Why the fuck did you claim.

@Everyone else: Should we assume now that their is two scum teams, and one of the teams where blocked?

I find the "frustration" at LMP claiming insincere and don't like at all that she asks everyone else what it's ok to assume about the scum team, instead of just thinking it through herself. Possibly she already knows the scum setup.

There's a possible connection between she and feysal too, but it won't mean much until one of them flips.

I no longer think there are two scum factions, and thus sheeping the case of a confirmed scum seems like an exceptionally bad idea. If you want to sell me this idea of Bunnylover being scum, you'll have to try harder.

Your comments on Feysal are blah. Backtracking I can kinda see where your getting that from. But from what I've read, this is how I processed it: "DGB is scum. Between Zoraster and LL: LL is townier then Zoraster." He doesn't compare DGB/Zoraster, so how exactly is that saying their is only one scum team? Should everyone never have any town reads because their are two scum team? No.

As I've stated before, I'm also bothered by her constant repetition that she doesn't trust her reads and implies she's stupid. She's playing the VI card to the fullest extent and it seems intentional, like she's using it to hide behind in case of future scum slips.

[LimMePls]

...Wait a minute. I thought your whole theory was that Feysal was scum because he'd slipped and revealed there'd been only one scumteam all along.

From your POV, it should have been obvious that there were two scumteams, because the Stark kill was missing.

(That explains your annoyance with hito correcting your "mistake," though.)

Also, why did you choose to kill chesskid?

^Mina, by the way.

Multiple town aligned vig kills is ABSOLUTELY plausible. So missing Stark kill does NOT mean that there is more than 1 team. And you Mina should definitely know better.

LMP, are you claiming SK?

Quite possibly the dumbest question I've ever heard. Scummy too.

If that's true, btw, your attack of feysal is even moooooore off base.

False.

@LMP: Why the fuck did you claim.

1) I think my information is relevant to the town. I didn't want to claim it straight away because I wanted to gauge reactions. This is why I specifically probed Feysal on the subject, and why I wanted HIS answer, and not others. I wanted to understand why he was so certain that the Stark kill was Chesskid since I knew it wasn't. I wouldn't want to die without the information out there.
2) The information is relevant because if there is a town RB out there, they should probably take a special look at whoever they blocked last night, there is a good chance it was scum. If there is a town Doc out there, they should probably feel that their protected target is less likely scum (granted they probably already thought this to target them, but solidifying the read can't hurt).
3) Certain people couldn't just let my questions go and realize that they must have SOME basis, they had to keep digging at it. Since I wanted to claim it today anyways, I felt the timing was about right.

The fact that you can ask this question and in the same post ask this one:

@Everyone else: Should we assume now that their is two scum teams, and one of the teams where blocked?

Means you should have been able to answer your own question. Which means it wasn't really a genuine question.

Wait, what? Chess was Lancaster aligned though; the only other flip was Stark, and I'd think you'd have a hard time convincing me the mafia iced one of their own.

The remaining possibilities are these: (Ordered in how feasible I like them.)

1) You are scum, soft claiming Vig/SK.
2) There's a protection role/RB role in the house (which, in that case, protection role, do not claim), and you are a town aligned Vig.
3) See above, replace the word vig with SK.
4) 2 or 3, only Starks didn't kill/can't kill last night (not likely).
5) More than one mafia group in this game and one of them was blocked from acting last night. (This is a combo of 1, you're soft claiming Vig, and telling the truth in a way we'd like to hear.)

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Your need to fluff post is noted. As is your sitting the fence to wait and see how the town responds to my claim.

In other words, I disagreed with you, and somehow disagreeing with you makes me scummy. Get over it. In my experience, doctors or role blockers are very rarely that lucky on the first night, and if Chesskid was not the Stark kill, there would be two unexplained deaths last night instead of one. The simplest explanation is most often true, and here the simplest explanation was that Chesskid was killed by the Starks.

If you knew all along you had killed Chesskid, what was the purpose of asking me about it? And by the way, you're being real funny accusing me of having inside information, when it was in fact you who had it.

Nice twists. First, disagreeing with me isn't scummy, the fact is that YOU VERY OBVIOUSLY LEFT OFF PLAUSIBLE ALTERNATIVES FOR EXPLAINING THE NIGHT KILL AND LEAPT AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO CALL 1 SCUM TEAM (which you had hinted at but then backtracked D1). YOUR PLAY SAYS YOU HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THE TOWN BELIEVING THERE IS ONLY ONE SCUM TEAM.

The obvious implications are that you a) Know there is only 1 scum team and want town cred for having "realized" it first or b) Know your kill got stopped so want to throw town off track by misleading them with a false "1 scum team" theory.

I'm not. At the time you voted me, you had not yet dug into my play, you just accused me of having inside information. The way you moved your vote to me looked like you were just using Benmage as an excuse.

Laughable. Flail some more Feysal. The fact is that my top scum read was "No Sir'd" by the Hand so I moved to my next scummy read. THE SAME THING YOU JUST DID. But somehow when I did it you imply its scummy but when you do it it's not a problem. FLAIL FOR ME BUDDY!

LOL! People, please look at LynchMePls resort to rhetoric here. He actually is dodging my question about him also voting Raivann. That play was only different from mine in that I noticed diddin also and he did not. Go back and look at it, seriously. As for the Raivann case, it has been pointed out several times that the interactions of diddin and Raivann do look scummy and there may have been bussing involved, and Raivann continues to look scummy for not having been able to explain his play. I have not ignored the counterarguments, I simply do not believe them.

Two can play that game.

Judge for yourself folks.

I am not trying to distort the facts, but you apparently are. Whether that is out of malice or incompetence remains to be seen.

What you're saying there is completely unintelligible. That first post of mine did not say that my view of Locke would not be based on interactions with DGB or zoraster. It also did not say I would not like to eat peanuts. The way this works is that you need to prove that I said something and explain why it is scummy. I do not need to disprove something I never said in the first place. I have never said or implied that my town read on Locke would have anything to do with either DGB or zoraster.

I have never said or implied that my town read on Locke would have anything to do with either DGB or zoraster.

THIS
IS
A
LIE

I've already quoted the sequence of posts at least 2 times. I'm not doing it again.

Yes, you do need to explain why it is a lie. You keep saying I have lied, but that don't make it so. You need to prove it.

Just because you ignore the parts of my posts where I prove this doesn't mean I haven't already done this.

I pray to God you know what you are doing. That said the concept of a Serial Killer or second Mafia group looks to be more probable if you are claiming Town aligned killer and diddin not being your kill.

I feel pretty freaking sure that my claim was the right move. The information gained for the whole town regarding last nights kills is worth my soft-claim. Trust me on this one.

LMP: I think I might see where you're going here, but can you elaborate on your thoughts when you saw Feysal's reaction to the Chesskid kill?

See above. Pretty sure I've covered this in this post.

My theory is that no player should be considered untouchable if they're not completely confirmed.

THE WHOLE POINT OF A GOVERNOR IS THAT THEY GET TO DECLARE UNTOUCHABLES. If you don't like this then you should have pushed harder for someone who would immediately burn the governor ability. A quick look in your ISO turns up a quote where you very specifically say you think the governor power should be used and not burned. And to boot it also gives another scum connection:

AT EVERYONE: PLEASE READ THIS QUOTE

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

WOO BOY! Nice Buddy to Xtoxm there. He thinks Xtoxm gives a good suggestion "for someone with a single post", but then disagrees with the suggestion saying we should give the governor to someone who will use it. So basically the whole purpose of mentioning Xtoxm there was to buddy him. What alignment was he again... oh right, Stark.

I find the "frustration" at LMP claiming insincere and don't like at all that she asks everyone else what it's ok to assume about the scum team, instead of just thinking it through herself. Possibly she already knows the scum setup.

As I've stated before, I'm also bothered by her constant repetition that she doesn't trust her reads and implies she's stupid. She's playing the VI card to the fullest extent and it seems intentional, like she's using it to hide behind in case of future scum slips.

I agree 100000%

There's a possible connection between she and feysal too, but it won't mean much until one of them flips.

Point this out please. This only makes me feel EVEN BETTER about my vote and nomination.

TL;DR

Feysal's relatively short D1 play has connections to BOTH fliipped Starks. His play suggested inside information on D1 that he backtracked from when called on it by MOI, but then RETURNED TO ASSERT AS TRUE ON D2. He then played true to his scum meta with a lurk. Now he is flailing like crazy.

FEYSAL IS ABOSLUTELY A STARK. PLEASE VOTE ACCORDINGLY.

[Shadow1psc]

Holy wall explosion.

[Feysal]

^ scummy. Talk about not scumhunting, huh Feysal?

I've mentioned before that I'm underwhelmed by DTMaster's contributions. Just because he is not doing scumhunting is no excuse why you should not.

I'm not agreeing with all this Thor/Raivann flip nonsense.

I'm actually null on Thor atm. Too many scummy players are saying he is scum.

This sounds like backtracking. You're worried about being seen as scum when Thor flips town, and you're trying to distance from the case you pushed all of yesterday.

Regarding Twilight Sparkle suggesting that LL is a serial killer: My knowledge of site meta isn't good enough, so I'd like to ask others (and especially Twilight Sparkle) about this: what do you think are the chances that the mods would put a serial killer in the game and a lyncher whose goal is to lynch the SK?

My knowledge of site meta is not good either, but it is no more than a loose guideline anyway. I think it is within the realm of possibility that Locke would be a serial killer. However, even if he is, today is not the time to speculate about that.

Yes, I saw the inconsistency regarding Zdenek from Twilight Sparkle...

Funny, I missed it. What was the inconsistency?[/quote]
You did not miss it, you mentioned it yourself in your last post:

For the record, the most likely scum on my wagon is Zdenek (will explain more in another post)...

Cognitive dissonance, hydra-schizophrenia, or softly attacking me as being "most likely scum on the wagon" while having a decent town-read on me. You also change your read of Nexus. Magua's also pointed these things out. I feel that you are adopting convenient reads rather than ones you actually believe in.

For the record, I consider this a case of hydra schizoprenia. The town read on you was posted by hitogoroshi, and the above quote by Mina.

There are a couple other points in your wall post that seem very poor, but I'll let Twilight Sparkle defend themselves from those if they wish.

-They do if I say they do.
-Because I have a town read on them... and am allowing them some allotted time to show enough others that they are town.

Sorry, but this all stems from 'Raivann still looks bad', and I think needs much more pressure without hiding behind an equal/opposing lynch like day 1.

So pressure him... I never said don't pressure anyone... He simply won't hang today.

Benmage, seriously. Your "my way or the highway" attitude is not only incredibly annoying, it is also supremely unhelpful. I'm going to require you to explain what you have a town read on Raivann for. Judging from what you said to Magua in your post #1016, it is not about diddin voting him, so what is it? Also, how do you think Raivann is using his allotted time, as you call it? I see him floating around doing nothing useful while blatantly sheeping you. That is not showing me that he would be town.

By the way, I looked through Raivann's other games to get a feel for his meta. I found that in his town games he actively scumhunts, comments on other players, and changes his vote in response to game events. His scum games however immediately reminded me of his play here. The way he still thought Locke was Petyr Baelish shows perfectly how disconnected he is from what is going on.

Finally, how do you expect anyone to pressure Raivann effectively without being allowed to vote or wagon him? Because you are giving him a pass, he can coast through today doing nothing, knowing that you won't allow him to be lynched. You're making no sense with that stance.

-So I named all the scum, and call town immune... and that has a negative effect on the game?

That is just insufferably arrogant of you to think you've named all the scum, and that you could not be wrong about any of your town reads. I bet that there is at least one scum among them. What you're doing had better be a today only thing.

I'll read the massive walls I saw in preview later.

[Bunnylover]

Your comments on Feysal are blah. Backtracking I can kinda see where your getting that from. But from what I've read, this is how I processed it: "DGB is scum. Between Zoraster and LL: LL is townier then Zoraster." He doesn't compare DGB/Zoraster, so how exactly is that saying their is only one scum team? Should everyone never have any town reads because their are two scum team? No.

As I've stated before, I'm also bothered by her constant repetition that she doesn't trust her reads and implies she's stupid. She's playing the VI card to the fullest extent and it seems intentional, like she's using it to hide behind in case of future scum slips.

If you wanted to play the, "constant repetition" thing, you might have actually wanted to quote me where I called myself stupid, doubted my read, and played the VI card.
Our of those 3 things, I've only done two. Those two are the first two things.
Can you honestly say that you don't see why I'm doubting myself with the Raivann read? I laid out what would happen if we lynched Zoraster first and he didn't flip scum. Their would be still suspicion on Raivann, and that to me just reads as mislynch incoming.
I don't see how anyone can say that is wrong.

@LMP: The problem with point 2 is that a town RB/Doc would already be assuming that the person they targeted was Scum/Town if they believe their is two scum team (although it would have probably taken another night).
I highly doubt you were claiming and in your mind you were going, "IM CLAIMING SO THAT I CAN GIVE A TOWN RB AND THE TOWN DOCTOR A STRONGER READ ON WHO THEY TARGETED!"
I find a difference between the reason you claim and night kill speculation, which is why I asked both question. And as it has been shown, their's possibilities that I have missed (read MoI post when responding to my question).

Feysal isn't the only one to say that line of thought (disagreeing with Benmage). Why do you make this a target but ignore the others who are doing the same thing?

@TS: x-x wow at your case. Obviously Zdenek hasn't been playing much attention to his own post and just wants to make you look scummy as hell. The contradictions you have shown in his play and the way he dances around LL "almost confirmed townie", is just wow.

Unvote: Thor
Vote: Zdenek

[Setael]

LMP, are you claiming SK?

Quite possibly the dumbest question I've ever heard. Scummy too.

I don't see why a town-aligned player with a night kill would target chess, and I also found it odd that you said you killed him without claiming vig. TS asked you why you targeted chess and I don't think you've answered that unless I missed it. Instead of calling me dumb and scummy for being suspicious of you, why don't you provide your reasoning for targeting chess?

@Everyone else: Should we assume now that their is two scum teams, and one of the teams where blocked?

Means you should have been able to answer your own question. Which means it wasn't really a genuine question.

Exactly. Her frustration seems really insincere when followed by a question to the town which points out the usefulness of the information you provided.

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

WOO BOY! Nice Buddy to Xtoxm there. He thinks Xtoxm gives a good suggestion "for someone with a single post", but then disagrees with the suggestion saying we should give the governor to someone who will use it. So basically the whole purpose of mentioning Xtoxm there was to buddy him. What alignment was he again... oh right, Stark.

Good catch. Especially where he immediately disagreed with the suggestion, it looks like his motivation in saying it was a good suggestion was to try to make the town think xtoxm was actually doing something. He buddied up to xtoxm and called diddin scum so he could bus.

There's a possible connection between she and feysal too, but it won't mean much until one of them flips.

Point this out please. This only makes me feel EVEN BETTER about my vote and nomination.

I did. It's the 2 quotes right below that. Here they are again:

I no longer think there are two scum factions, and thus sheeping the case of a confirmed scum seems like an exceptionally bad idea. If you want to sell me this idea of Bunnylover being scum, you'll have to try harder.

Your comments on Feysal are blah. Backtracking I can kinda see where your getting that from. But from what I've read, this is how I processed it: "DGB is scum. Between Zoraster and LL: LL is townier then Zoraster." He doesn't compare DGB/Zoraster, so how exactly is that saying their is only one scum team? Should everyone never have any town reads because their are two scum team? No.

I'm increasingly more confident in feysal as scum, which is making my reason for unvoting null and void.

unvote, vote: Feysal

I haven't had a chance to read TS' case on zdenek yet. I'll do that next. I also need to ISO bunny still. And clean my house.

[Setael]

If you wanted to play the, "constant repetition" thing, you might have actually wanted to quote me where I called myself stupid, doubted my read, and played the VI card.

I plan to once I've ISO'd you.

Our of those 3 things, I've only done two. Those two are the first two things.

My point is that doing the first two things IS playing the VI card. You are clearly aware you've done it. What I want to know is why. I think it is because you're scum, you're not confident in your play, and you're worried you'll slip up. When that happens you can once again shrug and say "Well, you know me, I'm just not very bright and not so good at this game. *Hugs*!"

Can you honestly say that you don't see why I'm doubting myself with the Raivann read? I laid out what would happen if we lynched Zoraster first and he didn't flip scum. Their would be still suspicion on Raivann, and that to me just reads as mislynch incoming.
I don't see how anyone can say that is wrong.

More than individual reads, I'm pinpointing your tendency to undermine your intelligence and say you don't trust your reads overall. ISO later today hopefully.

[LimMePls]

I highly doubt you were claiming and in your mind you were going, "IM CLAIMING SO THAT I CAN GIVE A TOWN RB AND THE TOWN DOCTOR A STRONGER READ ON WHO THEY TARGETED!"

Doubt it all you want, that doesn't make it untrue. It's more than that though, it's also providing the town further insight into the flips from the night before, not just the information that any RBs or Docs gain (although that is certainly a plus). If there is a town RB/JK, there target should receive extra scrutiny from their perspective.

LMP, are you claiming SK?

Quite possibly the dumbest question I've ever heard. Scummy too.

I don't see why a town-aligned player with a night kill would target chess

I seriously can't believe that at all. You see NO reasons a town aligned player would target chess? See below, and I want you to specifically reply on why you didn't see ANY of these reasons, let alone one of them.

What are your reads of Benmage and MOI?

and I also found it odd that you said you killed him without claiming vig.

Let me get this straight. I've just claimed a kill, and obviously I'm claiming town aligned. So how did I claim a kill without claiming vig? Your soft attempt at rolefishing is noted.

TS asked you why you targeted chess and I don't think you've answered that unless I missed it.

Missed the question, but frankly I'm amazed it was even asked.

a)His play was nothing but static. He basically spent the whole day shouting "zOMG KILL MOI" with 0 reasons aside from their personal feud. I felt he needed to be removed from the game.
b)As evidenced from ACOK, and as I've seen in multiple other large games, if the town doesn't clean up the idiot players, the scum sure as hell won't do it for them. The town will LOSE when these players are left to make the end game decisions. So even if he wasn't scum, he was anti-town and needed to go.
c) He soft claimed a character who was previously the hand (ie Tywin or Tyrion). Both of those roles have a higher than average likelihood of being PR, yet a PR wouldn't blatantly claim like that. Therefore his claim looked to me like he was setting up a Tywin/Tyrion fake claim. The only other possibility is that he was a VT fishing to draw the NK, but in that case it mitigates the damage my shot could do. There is more to this that I choose not to explain at this time. When it becomes relevant, I will happily extend this point further.
d)There was explicit approval of the shot from multiple of my town reads (Benmage and MOI off the top of my head).

Instead of calling me dumb and scummy for being suspicious of you, why don't you provide your reasoning for targeting chess?

I didn't call you dumb, I called the question dumb. I've explained why I think the question is dumb. I didn't call you scummy "for being suspicious of me" I'm calling the question scummy because it reads like thinly veiled fishing for more of my claim. Nothing else about my role needs to be claimed at this time. If you're town you'd fully understand why. As for explaining my reasoning for kill CK, as stated above I'm frankly stunned anyone would need an explanation.

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: Feysal

Nominate: Bunnylover

I found myself agreeing with a lot of TS's case, but I find LMP's Feysal case more compelling, and the more I return to the post where he talks about me, DGB and zoraster and his subsequent attempts to explain it, the more inconsistent and forced it seems. The Xtoxm catch is also a good one, demonstrating Feysal's contradictory thought processes. Bunnylover's defence of Feysal and concurrent hop on the Zdenek wagon is...well, let's just say I know where I'm looking if Feysal flips scum.

[Setael]

b)As evidenced from ACOK, and as I've seen in multiple other large games, if the town doesn't clean up the idiot players, the scum sure as hell won't do it for them. The town will LOSE when these players are left to make the end game decisions. So even if he wasn't scum, he was anti-town and needed to go.

c) He soft claimed a character who was previously the hand (ie Tywin or Tyrion). Both of those roles have a higher than average likelihood of being PR, yet a PR wouldn't blatantly claim like that. Therefore his claim looked to me like he was setting up a Tywin/Tyrion fake claim. The only other possibility is that he was a VT fishing to draw the NK, but in that case it mitigates the damage my shot could do. There is more to this that I choose not to explain at this time. When it becomes relevant, I will happily extend this point further.

In your (b) you say you think he's an idiot, but in your (c) you're saying you expected him to play like a smart player and not soft claim if he were really a PR. If he's such an idiot isn't there another possibility that he stupidly soft claimed a PR? Also, he didn't only soft claim his character, he stated:

I don't want to die at night because I have an awesome PR
that's why the VI act

Sure, it seemed like he was joking. But there was certainly a chance he wasn't (he was an idiot after all, right?) I don't follow how you could be SO sure he didn't really have a PR. Sure enough to kill him without a claim.

d)There was explicit approval of the shot from multiple of my town reads (Benmage and MOI off the top of my head).

This certainly shouldn't be included in a list of your reasons for targeting chess since it didn't happen until D2. Of course MOI is going to be glad chess is gone - he clearly found him obnoxious and you said yourself the second part of D1 was nothing but "KILL MOI!" over and over. And you knew Benmage would be glad to be rid of a VI since he had made that abundantly clear. Are you saying you chose chess in anticipation of their approval? You asked me my reads of MOI and Benmage. I also have a strong town read on both of them, but I don't think that's a good reason to kill someone you think they'll approve of, especially when that person may be a PR.

That being said, there is clearly more to your decision than you're able to say, so though I still have one eyebrow raised I'll drop it until you're able to clarify.

@LL: I resent you giving full credit for the Feysal case to LMP. I'll let it slide this once. /partial sarcasm

[Magua]

In general: MagnaofIllusion, Feysal, Zdenek, I find your wall posts that consist entirely of a one or two line quote followed by a one or two line response followed by a one or two line quote, etc, etc, to be incredibly annoying to read. There's no flow to your thoughts at all, it's like reading a questionaire. Especially when you just respond to someone's question with a question. There's no need to respond to each question someone asks individually if they all correspond to the same topic.

Magua looking back I see you were right and I did say sheeping last night in reference to your position on us. That is poor wording on my part. I agree you aren't sheeping but not just because you were the first vote on us, but because you haven't made any kind of case on us outside activity. I still like my shield comment though, it's like your using MoI and Ben to hide your lack of any real input towards us.

My read on you isn't because of your activity. If it was activity, I'd be over Kast or DTMaster. My read on you is over the complete lack of content you posted up until #1060. I say this in #615 and #1050. Neither of those mention activity at all. What they mention is the lack of anything useful in your posts. I call you on waffling. I call you on having zero scumreads before #1060.

More on this after the break:

A Dance With Dragons to be published July 12, 2011.

REJOICE!

Posted on GRRMartin's blog:
Mar. 3rd, 2011 at 9:11 AM
No. Sorry. Not done yet.



Now, stuff.

Twilight's case on Zdenek is exactly what I'm looking for out of that slot.

Quick question:

...remember, MoI and Magua were scumreads of his before...

Where am I a scumread of Zdenek's?

Other than that, I like the case...but I'm not convinced by it. I could buy Zdenek as bussing diddin D1 where I can't buy diddin bussing Raivann. Twilight's suspicion of Zdenek is at least set-up for the last few days. But, I retain suspicion of Twilight Sparkle nonetheless. Call it lingering suspicion.

In the meantime, I believe LynchMePls, and I think he's town. But I'm not getting his attack on Feysal, at least the impetus of it: If there's two scumteams, then doesn't that completely invalidate the "Feysal slipped knowing that there's only one scumteam D1" theory?

UNVOTE: Twilight Sparkle

Unnominate: Setael

VOTE: Nexus

Nominate: Twilight Sparkle

[LimMePls]

b)As evidenced from ACOK, and as I've seen in multiple other large games, if the town doesn't clean up the idiot players, the scum sure as hell won't do it for them. The town will LOSE when these players are left to make the end game decisions. So even if he wasn't scum, he was anti-town and needed to go.

c) He soft claimed a character who was previously the hand (ie Tywin or Tyrion). Both of those roles have a higher than average likelihood of being PR, yet a PR wouldn't blatantly claim like that. Therefore his claim looked to me like he was setting up a Tywin/Tyrion fake claim. The only other possibility is that he was a VT fishing to draw the NK, but in that case it mitigates the damage my shot could do. There is more to this that I choose not to explain at this time. When it becomes relevant, I will happily extend this point further.

In your (b) you say you think he's an idiot, but in your (c) you're saying you expected him to play like a smart player and not soft claim if he were really a PR. If he's such an idiot isn't there another possibility that he stupidly soft claimed a PR? Also, he didn't only soft claim his character, he stated:

I don't want to die at night because I have an awesome PR
that's why the VI act

Sure, it seemed like he was joking. But there was certainly a chance he wasn't (he was an idiot after all, right?) I don't follow how you could be SO sure he didn't really have a PR. Sure enough to kill him without a claim.

The CHANCE that he could have actually had a PR was factored into my decision. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER TO ADD TO THIS AT THIS POINT. If you want to find me scummy for killing CK, then so be it, I'm not going down this road any further, I think it would be harmful for town to explain further. I think the insinuation that CK was a bad town-aligned kill is COMICAL.

d)There was explicit approval of the shot from multiple of my town reads (Benmage and MOI off the top of my head).

This certainly shouldn't be included in a list of your reasons for targeting chess since it didn't happen until D2. Of course MOI is going to be glad chess is gone - he clearly found him obnoxious and you said yourself the second part of D1 was nothing but "KILL MOI!" over and over. And you knew Benmage would be glad to be rid of a VI since he had made that abundantly clear. Are you saying you chose chess in anticipation of their approval? You asked me my reads of MOI and Benmage. I also have a strong town read on both of them, but I don't think that's a good reason to kill someone you think they'll approve of, especially when that person may be a PR.

INCORRECT. Quoting both Benmage and MOI from D1:

VIGS – Bunnylover should join Chess on your “Great Shooting Tex” list.

Vig/SK wanting to look vig… Shoot here:
Danakillsu
Chesskid3
Nexus
Bunnylover

That is clearly in the public record, why are you hemming and hawing about it? You say you have a strong town read of both of them, and both of them EXPLICITLY approved a vig shot on CK. Where is the problem?

That being said, there is clearly more to your decision than you're able to say, so though I still have one eyebrow raised I'll drop it until you're able to clarify.

You say this, but the contents of your post prior to this statement doesn't look like someone dropping it. So why the discrepency?

Posted on GRRMartin's blog:
Mar. 3rd, 2011 at 9:11 AM
No. Sorry. Not done yet.

NO NO NO! READ FURTHER! He goes on to say in that same post that the book WILL be released on that date, that he is close enough to finish that there is plenty of time to get the book to press to meet that release date. His point was "While I technically have not finished the book, IT WILL BE RELEASED ON JULY 12 2011.

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will be in your favorite bookstore on

TUESDAY, JULY 12, 2011


Yes, I know. You've all seen publication dates before: dates in 2007, 2008, 2009. None of those were ever hard dates, however. Most of them... well, call it wishful thinking, boundless optimism, cockeyed dreams, honest mistakes, whatever you like.

This date is different. This date is real.

None of the previous release dates have ever had that backing straight from the horses mouth. So despite what I'm sure are some fans perfectly valid reservations at getting their hopes up, this one look like the goods.

[Magua]

@LynchMePls:

In the meantime, I believe LynchMePls, and I think he's town. But I'm not getting his attack on Feysal, at least the impetus of it: If there's two scumteams, then doesn't that completely invalidate the "Feysal slipped knowing that there's only one scumteam D1" theory?

[Kast]

I'll try to get caught up tonight.

I did read this page (53) and I liked LMP's case on Feysal.

I'll make sure to pay attention to that while catching up.